Ethics of Wealth Gap

Endozen

Endozen is a dabbler in poor man's philosophy, hoping to be enriched.

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17 Responses

  1. Jaybird says:

    I’m down with all of this but there is a dynamic that I am uncomfortable with.

    There is a wealth gap between me and Person P. Sure.

    Person P has a child. Person Q, let’s call them. Then they have a second child. Person R.

    Now there is a wealth gap between me and Person P and Person Q and Person R.

    Person P is able to put an obligation on me by doing little more than humping.

    That seems like a dynamic that we should not want to create a positive feedback loop for.Report

    • Endozen in reply to Jaybird says:

      That is an interesting point, so we are concerned with those who choose to make themselves poorer (i.e. having children) and we are worried about this framework making us owe them something. I would say that my argument is not one for completely eliminating wealth gaps. Instead, I am adding one legitimate reason to decrease them. So let us suppose we have a group like you and then a big group of P’s, Q’s, and R’s who are poorer. I would say we should decrease the wealth gap that comes from unfair stereotypes (P’s, Q’s, and R’s are dumb) and then maintain the wealth gap that comes from their choices (like having more children). I hope that answers your critique.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Endozen says:

        Fair enough… and, at the high levels of the wealth gap, the difference in the wealth gap between Bill Gates and me and Bill Gates and Person P is, effectively, identical. He has 113.2 Billion more dollars than both of us.

        It’s not about individuals, you may say. It’s about *GROUPS*.

        But then it seems that we’re jockeying for positional advantage at that point rather than trying to establish a floor for poverty above which we can say “we’ve done our part”.

        And, currently, there are *MASSIVE* and *HUGE* failures for the stuff we, as a society, have agreed to provide and these *MASSIVE* and *HUGE* failures tend to get waved away instead of seen as reasons to change something other than funding.

        So we’re going to be stuck here for a while. We can’t even agree on whether we, as a society, have a responsibility to teach children the three ‘R’s.Report

        • Endozen in reply to Jaybird says:

          Generally agreed. Where did you see disagreement on providing the three ‘R’s?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Endozen says:

            In general it shows up when someone makes the suggestion that school districts that have *ZERO* proficient students need to be radically changed. If you care to see an example from February, you can do so here.

            The number one problem when it comes to wealth doesn’t strike me as being the difference positionally between this group and that group. It strikes me as being the difference between this group and absolutely nothing.

            And the best pre-reqs to get as far as you can from absolutely nothing is proficiency in math and reading.

            If you want to erase a wealth gap, the best way to address it for good is to get as far as possible from zero, not as close as possible to the group above.

            You can get as close as possible to the group above by taking the group above’s stuff away, after all. But if they know how to read, they’re going to waltz away again.Report

            • Endozen in reply to Jaybird says:

              Thanks. As for your point, I agree that getting us far from nothing is good, but wealth gaps between groups does matter. They produce discrimination. I just do not see why it has to be on or the other. They both matter.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Endozen says:

                Let’s say you’re hiring for a job.

                You have two applicants. One can read and the other can’t. The one that can read can do simple arithmetic in their head and the other can’t.

                Which one will you be more inclined to hire?

                I ask because I can totally see how different gaps could create discrimination.

                If I wanted to make a permanent underclass, I’d make sure that they were both illiterate and innumerate.Report

              • Endozen in reply to Jaybird says:

                Given that is the only difference, I would likely hire the arithmetically inclined one. Of course it depends on how important the math is and whether I have the free time to help the less inclined one. But as for the permanent underclass, them being illiterate and innumerate are other forms of poverty maintaining pressures like my discrimination pressure. These are commiserate and cooperate forces.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Endozen says:

                Hey, if you’re just hiring someone to mop the floor, you’re just hiring someone to mop the floor. No reading or math required.

                So this seems to be a good way to make sure that the people from the part of town with the bad schools remain janitors.

                Hey. We need janitors. We’re probably never going to stop needing them.Report

              • Endozen in reply to Jaybird says:

                Oh I see, I assumed it was a job where having math skills would help. If not then I would prefer the other candidate.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Endozen says:

                I suppose that’s true. The guy who can read and do math presumably has better options. If not today, tomorrow. Then you’ll be hiring someone else and asking the same questions again.

                There are upsides to having a permanent underclass.

                Hey. We need janitors. We’re probably never going to stop needing them.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird says:

                Hey, if you’re just hiring someone to mop the floor, you’re just hiring someone to mop the floor. No reading or math required.

                They don’t need to read to actually mop the floor. They may need to be able to read to be an employee — filling out forms, communications from HR, etc.

                I remember from many years ago how much the technical staff at the giant corporation where I worked resented having to go watch an hour-long videotape prepared by HR. The same material in writing would have taken only five to ten minutes to read, and reading could be done at a time convenient for the individual staff. But the material was distributed as video because too many employees were functionally illiterate.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Michael Cain says:

                We can hire administrative staff with degrees and credentials whose job it is to fill out paperwork on behalf of the underserved.Report

  2. Burt Likko says:

    By “reparations,” do you mean any redistributive effort? Or are we speaking strictly about a wealth redistribution aimed at realizing a particular goal; as identified here, the goal of ameliorating future discrimination?

    ETA: You posit that creditor status is heritable. If I harm Jaybird’s father, who subsequently dies, Jaybird as his heir is entitled to receive the damages from me. This makes sense: a credit is a form of property. Why, then, is debtor status not heritable? I owe Jaybird a debt. If I die before Jaybird is able to collect the debt from me, why does that debt not pass down to my daughter? I think I know the answer, but I am interested in your approach.Report

    • Endozen in reply to Burt Likko says:

      That is the weakest point of my argumentation. I am not yet fully confident in my mental framework on property rights, so be warned. But I would still argue that there ought to be no (or little to none) inheritability of debts. And you have an idea on how to get all the way to them lacking inheritability at all. The argument is that because property rights themselves are there to promote productivity (and social cohesion?), the question then is “do inherited debt improve those things and is that worth the costs?” And it simply seems that being born into debt is a price we as a society do not want to pay for having increased willingness to give out loans.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to Endozen says:

        This is what I would posit as well, albeit with different verbiage: regardless of any moral principle about debts or epistemological assessment of what debts are, a practical, normative, outcome-based rule is at work. Lawyers (and probably others) call this sort of rule a “policy decision.”

        It may inform your further consideration that what Anglo-American law sees going on here is a continuation of legal personhood for a time following the death of the human being. This is a person’s “estate.” Some other person, typically a descendant, administers the estate, which means that person gathers and disposes of both debts and assets to settle the decedent’s accounts. Assets left over after this are distributed to the heirs in the form of an inherintance. But should debts exceed assets, the law makes a policy decision to not pass those debts along, shifting the burden of the death from the heirs to the creditors; this is thought to produce (on a society-wide scale) a better outcome by way of greater overall economic activity and more potential for upward social mobility.Report