When the Cat’s Away: China Brokers Deal Between Iran and Saudi Arabia

Mike Coté

Mike Coté is a writer and podcaster focusing on history, Great Power rivalry, and geopolitics. He has a Master’s degree in European history, and is working on a book about the Anglo-German economic and strategic rivalry before World War I. He writes for National Review, Providence Magazine, and The Federalist, hosts the Rational Policy podcast, and can be found on Twitter @ratlpolicy.

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40 Responses

  1. Damon says:

    I’ve had several conversations with people who mention China’s treatment of it’s Muslim population. My comment is: “What do you want the US to do about it?” When they give an answer, which usually is some type of force or embargo or such, I throw that back them asking “So you’re OK with foreign countries doing that to the US for (insert reason) right”? They usually shut up. Because it’s OK when WE do it, but having other’s call out our crappy behavior is wrong.
    Truth is, nothing but talking is going to get done and the Chinese don’t give a damn about what we think.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

      Truth is, nothing but talking is going to get done and the Chinese don’t give a damn about what we think.

      Very true.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Damon says:

      What is the US doing that’s similar to what China’s doing to the Uyghurs?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

        Education policy in the Northeast.Report

      • Damon in reply to Pinky says:

        You should read your history…..

        I was specifically thinking about a convo I had with a Jewish girlfriend at the time, who thought we should invade Egypt because it looked like the Muslim brotherhood was going to win elections. I described a scenario where we invaded, and based upon experiences in Afghanistan, etc. said, “Assume we’ll spend (not sure 50 trillion maybe) amount during a 10 year occupation and then hold elections. Assuming they are free, what if the Muslim brotherhood wins?” She said, invade again. I postulated that it would be cheaper financially to just nuke Cairo (maybe with a neutron bomb) than continually invading. It save a lot of American lives and treasure.

        That led to another convo about torturing terrorists to save kids on a school bus. I asked her, on a sliding scale, where the number of terrorists tortured went from 1 to 50 and the number of kids on the bus when exactly the opposite way, how many terrorists she’d torture to save the kids. When she said “as many as it takes”, I asked her why that line of thinking didn’t work for the Germans in WW2. Of Couse, the reason is that the Germans LOST the war. Nothing happened to the US for putting Japanese Americans into concentration camps.

        Ultimately, when you are the king of the heap, you get away with similar stuff that others get punished for. Might makes right. But no one ever considers that someone else will climb the pile and displaces you….THAT’S when you just might pay for your sinsReport

  2. Jaybird says:

    I idly wondered if the Uigurs were Shia or Sunni.

    Turns out, they’re Sunni.

    I guess there are a bunch of things more important than some weird ancient religion in the current year.Report

  3. Marchmaine says:

    I assume you are familiar with the Thucydides Trap? It doesn’t matter to point out the obvious that China is pursing a ‘Great Power’ strategy and will cajole, bribe, intimidate, and threaten other states to join its league. Question is, what’s the US gambit? Co-opt/Collaborate? Containment? Confrontation?

    I think it’s interesting that the last ‘flare-up’ of the China discussion / Thucydides trap was in 2014 +/- (which was preceded by incidents in 2001 that everyone forgets for obvious reasons).

    The Harvard Article revisiting China.
    https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/thucydidess-trap

    Rebuttal (Collaborate/Co-Opt) – Calling it a ‘Myth’ that the Obama administration had under control (TM)
    https://harvardpolitics.com/thucydides-trap/

    What’s interesting (to me at least) is that the usual American Imperial assumptions that exporting Sex, Drugs, and Rock-and-Roll would have their inevitable effect on Chinese culture and lead to the Liberal opening up of PRC were still extant in 2015. Autor et al. dropped their ‘China Shock’ article in 2016 and lots of Neo-Liberal economists let out a collective, Huh. Then Trump. Then Pandemic. And here we are.

    What now?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine says:

      I saw a great tweet yesterday (can’t find it now, sadly) that said something to the effect of:

      It makes sense to argue that we want China to manufacture our stuff and we don’t want war with China.
      It makes sense to argue that we should make our stuff and China shouldn’t and we don’t want war with China.

      It makes no sense to argue that China should manufacture our stuff and war with China is on the table.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

        Yes, but de-coupling is part of the Trap… that’s why it’s a trap. Think of it as a fancy way to say Kobayashi Maru.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine says:

          Marinating in the trap and having China continue to make our stuff and not going to war seems to be the easy way to do stuff.

          Let us make the General Intelligence AIs and let China be stuck in the mid-20th Century.

          (From what I understand, as stupid as the censorship we have on our AIs is, it’s still light years ahead of China’s. China’s AIs, apparently, can’t count to 10, what with “89” being an especially sensitive string.)Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

            Sure, doing nothing is always the most likely bet.

            Re AI… if it emerges as strategic asset it will make it to China within 3-5 years. Either through IP theft/Espionage or some combination of both. If they haven’t already.

            If there’s a ‘win’ since 2016 and today, it’s realizing that both sides were playing the co-opt game, where we thought it was only us.

            A lot of US Money/Power/Influence has been co-opted and we’re only just starting to untangle. I think it will be ‘messy’ as plenty of people will not be willing to incur the losses the untangling and decoupling will suggest. Plus, ‘good’ coupling should (IMO) be part of avoiding the trap… but ‘good’ as we all know is a loaded term easily manipulated where money and power are concerned.

            Also, don’t underestimate the possibility that staying the course won’t turn in to double down on Co-Opt/Collaborate. Decoupling will be painful and lead to escalation. The only way out is forward. I mean, Hong Kong is fine mostly. And think of the TVs.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Marchmaine says:

      I’ve never understood how American neocon foreign policy types could rationally expect a country with a billion people to turn out like the US. Hell I couldn’t understand why they thought Iraq would turn out like the US after Sadam.

      But here we are, back dipping in the ever giving well . . . .Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Philip H says:

        Dude… that’s the Wilsonian Liberal premise that the Neo-Cons (as good liberals) had as their baseline. That *is* the Liberal/Neo-Con consensus we call the Blob.Report

    • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

      The answer is containment and hoping their early onset demographic crisis critically compromises their freedom of action before our relative decline critically compromises ours. I don’t hate our odds, if only because we are more fun at parties.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

        One vote for containment… reasonable. Soft or Hard?

        That is, Soft containment are hard lines (Taiwan, say) but lax abroad… Saudi Arabia, South America, Africa. Versus Hard… with-us/against-us blocs… Saudi Arabia requires a response, as does African and South American bloc formation by China. Soft always sounds good, but if we don’t go tit-for-tat, then China escapes containment and Taiwan may opt for alignment with them.

        What are the Chinese iterations? Which proxies? What asymmetrical costs do they/can they impose on us to ‘contain’ them?Report

        • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

          Soft as long as that encompasses heavily arming those countries with the inclination to defend themselves and their way of life. Make China worry about that old cliche that small countries win wars against big ones by not losing.

          I’m less concerned about their diplomatic efforts and various boondoggles in the global south. China has yet to prove that it can make friends and to date its outreach has tended to he ham-fisted and self discrediting over the long run. If the battle comes down to ‘whose culture is more appealing’ we will win every time.

          The Chinese counter-move to watch out for is allowing them to bait us into harder containment. We can’t be everywhere or invest in everything. We need to accept that, and understand that the best way for China to break containment is provoking hubris, unnecessary bellicosity, and unforced errors.Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

            Reasonable. Good response.

            Possible, though, that arming countries for whom China has publicly disclosed re-integration between 2035-2059 as they reach their milestones for PLA modernization (2035) and Strategic Parity (2050) may alter their timelines or alter their approach.

            Part of the Trap. As you can guess, there’s no ‘answer’ to the Trap… maybe the primary takeaway is that as soon as you realize the trap exists and unilateral action has no winnable scenario, it’s too late to avoid the trap and multi-polarity is already here. The the question changes to: can you win a multi-polar game and how?Report

            • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

              The Ukraine situation has convinced me that we have probably been operating in multi-polarity light since at least 2014 and maybe as early as 2008. It could end up being good for us, since as unpopular as it is to acknowledge it our stated values are actually pretty appealing, and in a multi-polar world it is more in our interest to actually live by them sometimes. But to your point, it also means an endless game with no straightforward way of knowing whether you’re winning at any given time.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

        Here’s your conspiracy theory of the day:

        China is supporting Russia as much as it is in order to prolong the war so that a whole bunch of single chicks get freed up to pair up with their single dudes.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

          Heh, Russian women to China is a hard one to game out. Part of me thinks it’s a win for us, the other part thinks Chinese World Domination in 5.Report

  4. Philip H says:

    I’ll say this – you are unabashedly consistent in defending the failed Neocon world view.

    Take Saudi Arabia – they may have been and continue to be an ally and trading partner but they were never friendly to us – hell they created and then exported Osama Bin Laden so he wouldn’t disrupt their kingdom. But as long as the oil flows we should always be in their corner I guess.Report

  5. North says:

    The unrelenting mendacity of the neocon viewpoint is the one unalterable social constant in existence. It’s like a law of thermodynamics for politics.

    Much as deficits in the conservative mind invert in importance from trivial to world ending in perfect tandem with the change of occupants of offices of power; the importance of foreign policy actions flips depending on what administration is doing it. If America moves towards substantive foreign policy engagement with Iran under Democratic administrations it’s an unconscionable appeasement and dereliction but if China does the same suddenly America is missing the boat. Left unspoken is the question of who went so far in alienating Iran after the Iranian nuclear accords were inked under Obama so that Biden came into office confronting an angry, double crossed Iran and with America tarred as the offender in scuttling that deal. It is an eternal mystery.

    China strikes me as the most paper of tigers in the long term and Bidens management of them has been tolerable. The administrations skillful management of the Ukraine War has given the Chinese ample reason to re-think the wisdom of launching an unprecedented assault on Taiwan which presents the only major area where the Chinese seriously threaten the developed worlds interests. As for bases, diplomacy and the laughable Belt and Road initiative the Chinese have been blasting themselves repeatedly in the feet since Covid. “Wolf warrior” diplomacy has removed any serious threat of the Chinese mounting a charm offensive and the Belt and Road initiative is, as the author himself admits, merely a shoddily branded means of exporting Chinese construction work and saddling clients with white elephant infrastructure and unfavorable Chinese loans. In 2023 the developed world is less likely to sympathize with Chinese interests over American ones than in any time in this millennium as far as I can see.

    When your opponent is doing something foolish- let them. Biden has sat back and permitted the Chinese to own goal as if they were, well, Bush W. era neocons. When you compare that to what neocons pine for- bellicose American incompetence and blood-drooling-from-the-muzzle war baying; the contrast is pretty favorable to the Dems in my opinion.Report

    • Pinky in reply to North says:

      Another Michael-Scott-about-Toby-Flenderson reaction. Other articles, people complain about their content; Mike Cote’s, people complain about their existence. Or his, I guess. Anyway, if neocons are so awful and predictable, how can their sides switch with every change in administration? You can’t complain about both.Report

      • North in reply to Pinky says:

        That neocons will invert their opinions depending on which party is in charge is entirely predictable; doesn’t seem contradictory to me at all. Their flip-flopping is what’s constant, not their position, it’s almost quantum.

        If Mike wants to write as if the past couple decades of catastrophic neocon policy disasters never occurred he’s entirely welcome to and I’ll happily throw a few elbows in the comments reminding him that they did and that, no, we haven’t forgotten.Report

        • Pinky in reply to North says:

          You really hate people who are right half the time.Report

          • North in reply to Pinky says:

            Hate? Nonsense. Hatred is the inverse of love and I accord neoconservativism no such importance. I hold neocon thought in profound disdain but I certainly don’t hate it. Also, right half the time? They’d be lucky to be right a tenth of the time.Report

            • Pinky in reply to North says:

              See, I don’t believe you that this isn’t hate. And if they switch sides every administration, you’d have to consider them right half the time, right? Unless you’re also switching sides every administration – and that would also explain the hatred.Report

              • North in reply to Pinky says:

                Heheh you’re so into reading emotions and motivations Pinky me lad, I thought that was the province of the Social Justice left.
                I assure you, there’re things I hate and neocons aren’t one of them- I strictly disdain them.

                To your substantive question. Neocons manage to be wrong a lot. For instance: Iran. When they’re out of power neocons are outraged that we engage with the Iranians to prevent them from developing nuclear weapons because:
                a) that reduces the odds the neocons get to have a war with Iran and
                b) we have to give the Iranians policies they want in return for policies we want because that’s how deal making works. Neocons think we should just use our great willpower and a little bit of magic pixie dust (AKA war) to force the Iranians to give us policies we want in exchange for nothing. Oh and then when the Iranians say no, the neocons get their war.
                But when China engages with Iran and brokers a deal between Iran and the Saudis (which rewinds matters to 2016) that’s a terrible disaster for us and a great accomplishment for the Chinese because, mumble mumble something and also it makes War with Iran less likely.

                So they manage to be wrong in both circumstances and yet chage sides depending on who’s doing the engagement. I mean if John Bolton wants to soak his walrus mustache in blood maybe he could take up artisanal butchery or recreational hunting. Guess it’s not the same thrill for him unless it’s human blood.Report