Comment Rescue: A request for a sales pitch from Chip Daniels
Chip Daniels asks:
What is your pitch to your fellow citizens, maybe the people right here, as to why we should support Republican leaders like DeSantis or Abbot?
Keep in mind that your audience includes non-Christians and seculars; women who want the right to contraception and abortion; gays and trans people; Non-white people and ethnic minorities.
What good can the Republican party do for us, in what way is it going to make our lives better than the Democratic party?
This seems like a fun thought exercise.
What would *YOUR* sales pitch for the Republican party be? Like, you’re trying to get Ron DeSantis, the current Florida governor, elected president. How would you do it? How would you market him to Democrats?
Let’s say you’re trying to get Greg Abbott, the current Texas governor, elected president. How would you do it? How would you market him to Democrats?
Okay.
I’ll lay out my fundamental assumptions and work forward from there.
First off:
There are three groups of voters.
1. The people who, if they are going to vote, will vote for your guy no matter what.
2. The people who, if they are going to vote, will vote for the other guy no matter what.
3. The people who could be persuaded to vote for either guy
So what’s the goal? Sell people on the Republican. So, for #1, “your guy” is going to be the Republican candidate. “The other guy” mentioned in #2 is Biden (probably). So when I talk about #1 voters in this comment, they’ll be referring to Republican partisans. When I talk about #2 voters in this comment, they’ll be referring to Biden (probably) voters.
So even without getting into specifics, the goal for the #1s is to get them fired up. The goal for the #2s is to get them depressed. Best way to do this is to go for the whole “two birds with one stone” approach. Are there any subjects that will fire up the #1s at the same time as depress the #2s?
Let’s look at the polls. Here is a recent ABC News/Ipsos poll.
Just go down and look at the approve/disapprove numbers. If the topic is one where Biden has more than 50% approval, just move to the next one. If it’s brought up during the campaign, change the subject. If the topic is one where Biden has more than 60% disapproval, then we make that one of the things we talk about instead.
So let’s make a quick list of stuff where we want to change the subject… and, according to that poll, there’s just one. The response to the coronavirus at 56% approval.
So let’s look and see the stuff we want to change the subject to:
Immigration
The economic recovery
Crime
Inflation (71%! This is the one to hammer on!)
Gas Prices (72%!)
Gun Violence
Taxes
Well, when it comes to historical Republican strengths, they are crime and the economy.
So let’s kick off the sales pitch with “Are you better off now than you were four years ago?”
Show pictures of gas prices. Show pictures of people outside smiling. Show pictures of people in grocery stores. Oooh! Show the price of bacon! Talk about how Biden’s policies don’t help and how his cabinet is out of touch. Play the clip of Buttigieg suggesting electric vehicles as a solution. Play the clip of Biden bragging about shutting down domestic oil drilling. Show the price of gas 4 years ago and then show the price of gas at the highest point during June or July. Show a clip of a guy talking about how it used to cost $25 to fill up his tank and now it costs more than $60. “I’ve gotta get to work!”, have him say.
Talk about crime. Talk about the murder rate and talk about stuff like Chesa Boudin as if he were still the DA. Play the clip of Chesa talking about the “temper tantrum”. Hammer on how crime is seen as something to be explained away by the Progressives and how it’s something to be prevented and punished. Talk about the various bail policies. “This guy was out on bail and he committed another crime! A guy was killed! It’s bad when the police harm innocent people, it absolutely is, but we can’t have DAs letting violent criminals roam our streets!”
Paint the Democrats as supporting “Defund the police”. Make them discuss “Defund the police”. Talk about Biden as if he wants to “Defund the police”.
If asked about Uvalde, throw those mf’ers under the bus. “Cowards. They have a job and they refused to do it. I am ashamed of how law enforcement acted down there.” Not a single “well you have to understand” should come within a mile of this discussion. “It was a complete and total failure and I want to know why Joe Biden hasn’t called for a Civil Rights investigation of the incident. If elected president, we will have one.”
Segue from the failure of the police in Uvalde to why we can’t have gun control. You can’t necessarily count on the police. “When seconds count, police are minutes away!”
And taxes? Make noises about tax relief for the American People, whatever, but make noises about how the billionaires need to start paying. Adopt some of the “fair share” rhetoric. Hammer on the SALT tax and hammer on silicon valley millionaires.
You want a good avenue of attack? 2nd Homes. Make that be the dividing line. “If you have a second home, we’re going to tax it. If you are a corporation that owns several homes, we’re *REALLY* going to tax them!”
That should, I think, fire up the #1s and make the #2s defensive. Some of the defenses given by the #2s on stuff like “Defund the police!” will do a good job of persuading the #3s.
Just keep hammering on crime and inflation and make the democrats talk about Defund and Trump.
That’s how I’d sell any given Republican candidate who was not Trump.
Oh, and be cheerful. Let the other guy be dour.Report
Thing is… none of this SOLD the Republican guy. This was all why someone SHOULDN’T vote for Biden or Generic Democrat. But the question, as I understand it, is make the case for DeSantis or Abbot to someone who is open-minded about who to vote for but who doesn’t vote based on pro-life bonafides or “traditional Christian values” and the like.
There are good arguments here against Biden… or, rather, again voting for Biden.
But I don’t see a single line IN FAVOR OF DeSantis or Abbot. In fact, you don’t even mention either. You don’t even really use the word Republican outside of setting up your framework.Report
I thought the “I’m tough on crime!” was a selling point for the Republican…
But, okay. Taking this to heart… I don’t know anything about Abbott. So I’ll talk about DeSantis.
DeSantis, famously, did not shut down the schools and do the remote learning thing. So talk about how Florida schools are doing on proficiency scores.
Here’s an article.
Run with that. The part of the headline that says “as Central Florida school districts show little to no improvement” needs to be spun as “holding the line during a tough time” or something like that. “We didn’t fall behind!”
Compare to Delaware. Here’s an article. Talk about how “In Joe Biden’s state of Delaware, scores were down! Proficiency is down! That’s because of his policies! My policies had scores holding the line or going up! Vote for me!”
Something like that.Report
I am in group #2. There is nothing anyone can say which would convince me to vote for a Republican. This is not the place for me to explain why that is the case; suffice to say, SCOTUS and other things make me unpersuadable.
BUT
The options matrix leaves out choice #4, which is what you’d actually do if you encountered someone a little bit like me. What you want to do is take away my motivation to vote, so that I don’t vote at all. That’s not as good as me voting for your guy, but it’s WAY better than me voting for my guy.
And actually you’ve done an okay job of attempting that. For me? I need ANY Democrat in there possessed of enough brain cells to appoint non-conservatives to SCOTUS. But someone with different priorities than me? Maybe you can demotivate them to opting out of the electorate altogether.Report
The Democratic Party is inherently a coalition party of people who are, for one reason or another, not Republican. The good news is that there are lots of us. The bad news is that we are made up of a lot of different groups and no one group is large enough to be able to control the entire policy course but every group somehow convinced itself that it is the real majority. Democratic groups do not really speak or interact with each other because of the wide diversity of interests and backgrounds. Each group has priorities that might directly conflict with the priorities and needs of another group.
I have a theory, and it is mine, that Democratic groups tend to sit out the midterms when they are told to take their priorities on the chin again for whatever reason. The student loan forgiveness crowd is the prime example off the top of my head. It is a very important thing to a group of Democratic leaning voters but not all Democratic leaning voters. Democratic politicians have made the decision, consciously or not, that there is more risk than reward in pursuing it as a policy goal. Yet for a small but very loud segment of the very online, it is an issue of highest importance. They might sit out.Report
I think you’re just describing Jaybird’s group #2, and getting them depressed (as he puts it).Report
Oh, yes. I intended to cover that with the whole “if they are going to vote” clause.
What I wanted to communicate with “fired up” vs. “depressed” is the whole issue of making “if” more likely for fired up people and less likely for depressed ones.
Like, let’s say that you’ve got someone who, because of Trump, will never *EEEEEVER* vote Republican ever again.
So how do you deal with such a person? As you say, you take away your motivation. What’s the best way to take away your motivation?
Well, you hint that the most important thing for you is SCOTUS. What I would want to do, in your case, is get the subject away from SCOTUS. Let’s make it be about policing, maybe. Perhaps make it be about inflation. The supply chain.
Have you get sick and tired of talking about Putin’s price hike and how Biden doesn’t have his hand on a secret lever controlling gas prices OH OH OH THE PRICE WENT DOWN see? Biden’s doing a good job! Have you feel some sort of unease when suggesting that people buy electric vehicles. God forbid, have you give some explanation for why the antifa, who aren’t *REALLY* antifa, are just engaging in some light LARPing and CHAZ II isn’t supposed to be taken seriously and, besides, there were only two murders so far.
When election day rolls around, get to five PM and have your lady friend send a text saying “have a good election day?” and you text back “was that today?”
That’s the goal. Ideally, we can shift the topic to stuff where people in your social media circle are arguing against the insano lefties who are explaining that we need to rethink having District Attorneys at all and, for that matter, landlords.
And have it become easier and easier to think “I live in a safe district in a safe city in a safe state. President Breakfast Tacos doesn’t need my vote to decide the election for him.”Report
Besides they’re not the Democrats?
I’m usually in the position of wishing they both would lose, so this question is difficult for me.
That said, I think it’s situational – it depends on the two candidates, the current Zeitgeist of the country, and the dominant policy issues of the day. It also depends on strategy – what are the best themes to hold the base and get enough independents to win.Report
Oh jeez, I fear this is a time suck aimed straight at me. There’s lots of things a person could try depending on how motivated they were. The thing that comes to me offhand is the 4th of July parade shooting incident in Highland Park, Illinois. The lib cultural energy that animates the Democratic Party is profoundly oriented toward encouraging and empowering the alienations against mainstream America. This has been going on for a long time, of course, but matters have gotten dramatically worse during the Obama/post-Obama era. And it’s exactly these sorts of alienations that create incidents like the Highland Park thing. So, to mitigate against the likelihood of similar incidents occurring in the future, we should all vote Republican. (And of course, it’s also tremendously valuable in dialing down the political/cultural hostility in America in general. It’s fairly intuitive, at least for me, that the overall cultural animosity among Americans is a bigger and broader problem than the current issues with gun violence, though obviously any one particular circumstance is much less likely to be lethal.)
In the bigger picture, I’m kind of an odd duck for a right-winger in that the Wokes actually convinced me of a few things. So I’m kind of a Right-Woke, and I don’t think there’s too many of us. And one of the things the Wokes used to say (maybe still do for that matter), is that it’s not our obligation to do your spiritual and intellectual work for you for free.
In this case we’ve seen, over a matter of months or years, that Chip and Saul are strongly animated by grievances and alienation, against conservatives and Republicans in particular, but not just us. And at least as important as that, a larger number of libs here at the League share the same grievances, but just do a much better job of maintaining thoughtfulness, circumspection, and emotional balance.
And sometimes we try to resolve these grievances, at least among ourselves. Sometimes it seems to be worth the effort, other times it just seems to add to the frustration, for both the Left and Right commenters. But the important thing to emphasize is that we don’t have to do that. We have no obligation to do their spiritual work for them. We don’t have to refute their grievances. We don’t have to address their grievances, we don’t even have to acknowledge that they exist.
People like DeSantis, Youngkin, Kim Reynolds, Greg Abbott and Adam Laxalt are going to be elected, this cycle and the next. They are going to pass laws and make rules, and people like Chip and Saul can simply follow them. And if they don’t, that can be addressed then.Report
The first paragraph of this response is one of the odder takes I’ve seen on this site, but I don’t want to dismiss it out of hand. What I’m reading, and please correct me if I’m wrong, is that the American lefts purported anti-mainstream America is what drove the perhaps (?) Trump supporter shooter to perpetrate a massacre during what is probably the most American thing one can do: watch a 4th of July parade. And the solution is vote Republican or more massacres will happen?
I’d love to be wrong about this.Report
Well yes, the point is that the Highland Park incident is one of many that’s occurred over a period of months and years. And even though the nature of the grievances varies widely, as a very strong generalization the perpetrators of such crimes are very much unhappy and aggrieved people. So in particular, I am not trying to argue that it’s the same grievances animating Chip to bytch about Republicans here which are the same reasons that motivated Robert Crimo to shoot the parade-goers there.
The Highland Park guy had different motives than the Uvalde guy who had different motives than the Buffalo guy, who had different motives than the Ft Hood shooter who had different motives than Dylan Klebold. What I am saying is that for each of those men, beyond being unwell and aggrieved, somehow process and followed through on the idea that in some way the best response was to shoot a group of random or vaguely predefined people.
And that is what I’m blaming the libs for. Because it has been the animating energy of libs for at least 30 years, but especially the last ten or so, that mass grievances, especially related to class, race, sex, but also sometimes other things as well, are magnified and vindicated. So, because blacks in Tulsa were attacked by a white mob in 1919, blacks in Memphis get reparations in 2022. Because the Federal Army subdued the various Indian tribes all over the American plains in the 19th century, Elizabeth Warren gets a faculty appointment to Harvard. Because the Puritans of Massachusetts drowned sexually promiscuous women as “witches”, some college professor accused Sen Josh Hawley as being transphobic for suggesting that it is women who get pregnant and give birth. (That last one happened today I think btw.)
Any possibility of moderation, of forbearance, of solidarity, of a mentality of abundance and future time-orientation, these are all things that libs understand to their core will hurt the political viability of the Democratic Party. Especially now in a world where Pres Joe Biden has sub 40% approval rating. Therefore they will work desperately hard to prevent this from happening. That’s why we have the culture that we have.
So what we should ask, in fact it’s what he should insist as much as we are capable, that the libs simply stop doing these things. And therefore, without the constant regeneration of lib cultural pollution into our society, we have the possibility of rebuilding ourselves in a spirit of solidarity and abundance for all.
So yes, that is one reason among many why you should be voting Republican. If you find this at all fanciful or unpersuasive, please appreciate if nothing else it’s why I vote Republican.Report
Regarding paragraph 3: the only people who are aggrieved by any of the present day actions are conservatives.
Regarding the whole response: there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out that America had, and continues to have, warts. Not wanting to sweep the dirt under the rug is, in the end, a way to make this country better for every citizen. To suggest that taking up arms is a reasoned response to this is a deeply unserious take.Report
This is just not true, and in fact I’m at a bit of a loss as to why you would even assert that.
For example, it’s just been a couple of weeks since the incident(s) surrounding Felicia Sonmez and her tweets and workplace drama. And she’s an especially good example because of how weak her grievance was and the tenuous connection between that “grievance” and her response. And I think it’s pretty obvious that Sonmez is not a Republican and neither is anybody who was instinctually inclined to support her.
This is wrong on a couple of counts. What you’re calling “not wanting to sweep dirt under the rug” isn’t about making the country better. It’s about saying that our solidarity is worth much much more than the mindless score-settling and ledger-keeping that contemporary Woke libs are inclined to do.
As far as mass shootings being a “reasoned response” to personal aggravations, to be honest I’m not following your (presumed) imputations to me.
I am not saying that mass shootings are a reasoned response to personal disturbances or aggravations. What I am saying is that where somebody feels some kind of group based grievance, we resist the mentality that that grievance necessarily has to be amplified and vindicated, as libs are likely to do.Report
This is the Baseball Crank argument that if we’d just let Trump win, 1/6 wouldn’t have happened.Report
Then you haven’t read many of Koz’s takes. They’re all like this.Report
So you’ve changed your mind and decided we are legitimate Americans again?Report
Wouldn’t abbot or desantis want my vote. If they want to pitch me then they have to offer ME something. Warmed over R platitudes or whatever policy spam they are serving up. Dont’ tell me touch on crime because that is bs that pushes me away. Fact is they aren’t trying for my vote.Report
There are ten or fewer states that matter to the outcome in 2024. Alaska is not one of them. Neither is Colorado, where I am.Report
I feel it is an interesting level of privilege to talk about elected officials of either party making things ‘better’, or at least really bad phrasing.
The Republican party is currently promising to make things a lot worse for people.
The Democratic party is…uh…sorta slowing that down. Maybe? A little.
No one is making things ‘better’.Report
But let me try to answer the ‘How would I market these people to Democrats’?
Well, the problem is…see, here is what vaguely seems to confuse both conservatives and liberals about people with actual positions: I don’t pick ‘politicians’. I see the point of the government is, (and I know this sounds strange), to do specific things and not do other things. Do good things and not do bad things. That is an extremely simplistic statement, but there it is.
And the Republicans listed above have been pretty clearly committed to doing things that I absolutely don’t want done, and thus I’m extremely unlike to vote for them under any circumstances. Even if, for some reason, they claimed they were going to stop doing those things, I’m still fairly sure I’d go with the people who always opposed those things.
And seriously, this honestly is such a weird question, making it extremely clear how so many people see politics as some sort of game where the goal is for their side to win.
The point of politics to is build the rules and systems that we live under. If you are _not_ concerned about politicians doing that, if instead you’re playing a game to make your side win, congratulations, you are operating from a point of extreme privilege where you are 100% sure that these rules and systems will never hurt you.
If the Republicans, aka the ‘other side’, were being more helpful in accomplishing my policy outcomes than Democrats, I would vote for them…but this is about the same thing as saying ‘If I walk to the sun…’. Like, there is literally no way in my understanding of politics where they will do that, so there is no way I will ever choose them over Democrats, but it’s not because they aren’t on my team, and it’s not because they have not made a good sales pitch…it’s because they do really, really bad things that I disapprove of. (And also don’t do good things, but honestly, at this point, neither to Democrats.)Report
I see the point of the government is, (and I know this sounds strange), to do specific things and not do other things. Do good things and not do bad things. That is an extremely simplistic statement, but there it is.
Hey, as the President of “just legalize pot and end the DST time change”, I’m right there with you.
But I do think that DeSantis has something close to an argument when it comes to school lockdown policy and he can point to how his state did better than other states.
“School policy is all well and good, but that’s not on my list of policies I care about most”, I can see you saying.
Hey, as the President of “just legalize pot and end the DST time change”, I’m right there with you.Report
Jaybird, are you just sorta sarcastically making a point about how privileged you are with that list of the things you care about? It’s hard to tell.
…oh. You’re not being sarcastic.
To be clear here: The policies _I_ am talking about wanting Republicans to stop doing is the encouragement of fascism and behaviors leading to fascism. Including deliberate harm and scapegoating of minorities and attempting to ignore and even overturn the will of the voters.
Not test scores. Or time changes…or even pot.
But, like you said, different people have different priorities, and plenty of people are fine with fascism because they believe fascism will not go after them. So…pot I guess? DST?
—
Actually, the way you listed ‘legalized pot’ is kinda telling in itself.
See, I happen to agree with you, but I would say ‘End the drug war and release and clear the record of everyone imprisoned by it’, because the problem isn’t really ‘pot being illegal’, it’s the behavior of the government that is justified by pot being illegal that is extremely harmful to society. Like, if the government made pot legal but instantly transferred all their resources and behavior to stamping out [insert other drug here], acting exactly the same towards everyone with just a different drug in that slot, we would not particularly be better off.
Whereas someone saying ‘legalize pot’ sounds like they are approaching it from the direction of ‘I wish I had better access to pot’.
Now, I’ve talked with you enough that I know you actually think the war on drugs is immensely destructive and wanted it ended, we agree completely there. But the phrasing you picked really is the same phrasing used by people saying ‘I wish the pot I like to smoke was legal’ instead of ‘I wish the government wasn’t fighting ‘a war’ with a large section of the population.’Report
I don’t smoke pot. I haven’t touched it since… oh… 1995? 1996 at the absolute latest.
Colorado legalized medicinal in 2000 (!) and recreational in 2012. If I felt like driving over to Manitou Springs, I could buy a bag of stuff that would very likely leave me stunned and saying “it wasn’t like this back in 1995!”
But I used to have a whole slew of things that I wanted political parties to do. I had a whole list of policies I wanted implemented. I had a moral theory, if you can believe that, and argued that people should get rid of their own and adopt mine.
SMGDH.
As it is now, I prefer to just say “this one thing that has a 70% approval rating? Maybe the democrats could do that if they wanted me to vote for them?”
And then people can tell me how privileged I am and how I should get rid of my moral framework and adopt theirs.
SMMFH.Report
I mean…that’s not what you said and also not what we were talking about?
I said that this discussion topci was phrased by people with privilege (Which it should be noted are both you and Chip.) and it looks very different for people who do not have that and are actually _concerned_ about what the government does instead of weird competitive ‘team stuff’.
You brought forth those two things as your example, apparently thinking that was the sort of stuff I was talking about, which is just…hilariously incomprehensive as people talking past each other. We clearly operate at very different levels of privilege, and view this discussion through those different levels, which was my entire point.
I was concerned that people are being attacked in public for being members of the currently-attacked minority and rape victims being forced to give birth, so…your example of daylight saving time as an example of bad things ‘the government’ does is incredibly goofy and absurd.
Now, in regard to ‘How to get Democrats elected’, you are _entirely_ correct that legalizing drugs is something that would get more Democratic voters and is something Democrats should do. It’s also a good thing that I have no objection to and in fact want.
It is an extremely sad reflection on the voting populace that this is a larger issue than taking trans kids away from their parents, but here we are.
Jaybird, being told you are privileged is not some sort of insult.
You (Along with a lot of people here) have very little to fear from fascists, or _think_ you don’t. At least not in the current format. That is a true statement.
You (Along with a lot of people here) also do not appear to be much concerned about very fascistic things happening. That is also a true statement.
People who do think (or know) they have to something to fear from fascists think about this very differently. They are worried about their lives, you are worried about changing your car’s radio.
And, yes, you probably _should_ at least consider the situation from their position, especailly in a hypothetical discussion about what would make people vote for different people?Report
I mentioned in the other thread about how the cynical detachment posture is indistinguishable from support for authoritarianism because of this, that it reflects a disengagement from community, an alienation and isolation from the body of citizenry which is a vital component of a liberal democracy.Report
For what it’s worth, I don’t see being called “privileged” as some sort of insult.
I see it as similar to, say, you calling me “white”.
At worst it’s kind of funny.
The thing that makes me SMH is the whole “don’t have your moral code, have mine! MY MORAL AUTHORITY IS LEGIBLE!” thing that you’ve got going on.
I’ve told you my price.
You’ve told me that I shouldn’t have it even though you think my price should be higher and that the Democrats ought to pay my higher price instead of not even paying the lower one that I’m selfishly asking for.
My price remains the same.
And you can keep writing about how I ought to have a different one that, to be sure, the Democrats won’t pay either.Report
DST is ending. Congress said so this year.
So is your price just legal weed or is your price and end to the war on drugs?Report
From a quick google:
I look forward to this passing the House and getting signed by Biden!
This Rubio fellow may have a strong future being a spokesperson for these Democrats.Report
A bit of background:
When I was a precocious bookish teenager in the 1970s I read both National Review and Mother Jones, and devoured political news from Watergate onward.
I was drawn to the Republican arguments because of their vision.
While the Democrats could never seem to say a kind word about America and were the party of dour malaise, Reagan’s vision of a proud America that rode tall in the saddle and confronted the great evil of Communism thrilled me.
And the argument that government should carefully husband its resources and spend only what it took in seemed so sensible, and the arguments against seemed so arcane.
And the vision of an America where everyone worked hard, and that hard work was rewarded, where communities banded together, was intoxicating especially in the world of stagflation and shattered confidence in the aftermath of Vietnam and Watergate.
Reagan’s vision was a vision of hope, and of change.
So it shouldn’t be surprising that this Reaganaut ended up walking precincts for Obama.
I haven’t heard any messages like that from the right side of the aisle for a long, long time. Definitely not since 9-11, and maybe not since a thousand points of light in 1992.Report
Anyone on the left want to prove Haidt wrong and present a solid argument for voting Republican?Report
Hell’s bells, we haven’t even seen one from the right.Report
Yeah, I’ve been reluctant. I think Chip’s question is very different from Jaybird’s, for one thing. Chip wanted an argument for any listener in favor of Republican leadership, and Jay wanted an argument for Democrats in favor of two presidential candidates. I don’t like Jaybird’s version because we don’t know DeSantis’s or Abbott’s platforms. Also, I’m pretty sure Chip chose them because he wants to make this about the trans stuff. The thing is, if I were talking to an average voter, I’d be fine bringing up the trans stuff. Most anyone would agree that the Democrats have gone nuts on identity and bigotry. I don’t think I’m going to persuade many people *here* that that’s a good argument to make *out there*, but it’s one I’d be confident in. And anyway I feel like I’ve spent a ton of commenting time addressing the general topic.Report
I took Chip’s question as how does one present a positive case to all voters for a Republican candidate. Jay picked Abbott and Desantis and then laid out a case for hammering Dems on what’s currently wrong with the U.S.
Jay at least takes a stab at it, but he’s running a negative campaign. No ideas for fixing the problem are presented other than we’re not them.Report
Shame on Jaybird for not reading DeSantis’s and Abbott’s minds!Report
I think we’re reading campaign manager Jay’s mind.
I wouldn’t think it possible, but it seems he’s jacked his own thread.Report
Also for refusing to put away his mind-reading technology and jump into his time travel technology to go to the future and see what the issues will be in two years, which one is running, and who the Democratic nominee will be. Laziness, that’s what it is.Report
Since it’s a thought experiment, use your imagination.Report
Jay picked Abbott and Desantis
From the first line of Chip’s comment: “What is your pitch to your fellow citizens, maybe the people right here, as to why we should support Republican leaders like DeSantis or Abbot?” (emphasis added)Report
Fine. What about the rest of it? Let’s not get into what’s an AR-15 territory here.Report
So let’s kick off the sales pitch with “Are you better off now than you were four years ago?”
Now the possibility exists that maybe you are. Maybe you’ve been getting good raises, managed to purchase an electric vehicle, and got a good rate for your mortgage.
Maybe this is true for everybody else in your immediate circle as well.
Can you imagine a swing voter for whom this is not true? Like, I came out and acknowledged first thing that there are Democrats who just aren’t going to vote Republican ever. Like *EVER*.
But can you imagine one being depressed enough by the Biden administration to be able to tell himself “I live in a safe district, besides, the lines are going to be long and I need to stop by the grocery store”?Report
This is the question everyone who’s responded with suggestions seems to be dancing around. You say Dems are terrible, Koz says vote R to avoid future mass shootings because feelings are being hurt, Pinky says tear down trans people.
Culture war stuff holds absolutely no appeal to this persuadable voter. Economic stuff does. Whatcha got?Report
See, this is where the whole “are you better off now than you were 4 years ago” either has teeth or it doesn’t.
If you don’t care about the inflation, if you don’t care that the administration talked down the inflation, if you don’t care that the bad numbers were always higher than expected, maybe someone could say “Republicans tend to be pretty good for businesses and pretty good for jobs” and that will either move you or it won’t.
But if you’re a #2 voter who won’t ever vote for a Republican, getting me to sell Republicans to you won’t work.
All I can do is get you to say “you know what? I’m too busy to vote today.”
Is there an inflation number that would get you to vote for a Republican? We hit 9.1% today. That was higher than expected.
If I point to Florida’s numbers for the economy compared to others during the last few years and Florida’s growth, would that be a selling point for DeSantis?
His education numbers because he didn’t demand lockdowns?
Do you want to discuss taxes? Small businesses that closed during the last two years and compare to small businesses in Florida?
I mean, if your immediate response is to come up with a hypothetical democrat that you’d rather vote for… well, let’s say that the democrat isn’t hypothetical but Biden.
Can you imagine thinking “man, I’m beat” on the drive home from work and just going straight instead of turning into your local polling station?Report
Sir, you have successfully avoided, yet again, answering the question. Sure, the Dems may be crappy, but how are the R’s less crappy? Just by being not Dems? I thought the whole point of the exercise was for R supporters to point out concrete ways their party would make life for everyone better. Sell yourself, man!Report
“Republicans tend to be pretty good for businesses and pretty good for jobs”.
Those are absolutely not the problem right now. Businesses are making money hand over fist, and it’s next to impossible to not have a job right now.Report
Coincidentally, Democratic presidents tend to see unemployment rates drop, while Republican presidents tend to see them rise (and the average, across administrations, is about -1 point for Dems and +1 point for Republicans).
In fact, since before the Great Depression, only one Republican has ended their term with a lower rate than they started with, and no Democrat has ended their term with a higher rate than they started. And the one Republican who ended with a lower rate saw unemployment over 10% close to the middle of his term, so…Report
I’m not selling the Republicans.
What I am doing is assuming that there are three groups of voters.
#1s are the folks who, if they’re going to vote at all, will vote DeSantis (in this case)
#2s are the folks who, if they’re going to vote at all, will vote Biden (probably Biden)
#3s are the folks who are swingable.
My arguments, for this thought experiment, involve arguments that will get Biden voters to say “eh, it’s too hot today” and get swing voters to say “man, the Republicans can’t be worse than what the Dems have done over the last few years… you know what? I *WAS* better off four years ago!”
If you’re asking me to make you like DeSantis, I’ve posted a link or two to how his education policies have held up over the last few years and he became governor in 2019 so any discussion of *ANYTHING* since 2019 will have an elephant in the room.
The spikes will have to be compared to spikes in other places and the dips will have to be compared to dips in other places.
But when it comes to the economy, how do you feel about how Biden is dealing with, say, inflation?
Would you feel better if the numbers were not always “unexpectedly” higher than the predictions? Hey, if a Republican was in the white house, we could go back to the predictions being dire and the numbers being “unexpectedly” better than predictions.Report
For Christ’s sake, Jaybird, the question is right in the post. Your words: What would *YOUR* sales pitch for the Republican party be?
If you wanted to ask another question, the place to do that would have been in the article, not the comments.Report
It’s not *MY* question! It’s Chip’s!
And my sales pitch to people who fall into category #2, in this thought experiment, is to get them to say “meh, I’ll stay home that day”.
Because my fundamental assumption for #2s is that they will never ever vote for DeSantis and there is *NO* argument that I could make that could get them to vote for him. No, not even one.
Seriously, that’s one of the first things that I said!Report
The question I quoted is yours. It seems odd to me that you’d ask a question, then provide an answer, a good one, to a completely different question.Report
No, the question you quoted was Chip’s!
Seriously. Read it here. Chip asked that!
I thought his comment was good and so made a post about it.
My sales pitch makes assumptions that there are three groups of voters and my sales pitch for each one will be different! My assumption about group #2 is that they will never, ever vote for a Republican and there is no argument that I could make that would get them to do so!
Seriously, I opened with that!Report
I give up. Being obtuse may have its virtues in the world in which you live, but certainly not mine.Report
Because you’re asking me to do something that, in my very first comment, I said could not be done!
I’m not going to attempt the impossible. If you want arguments about the economy, I’ll point to inflation and the supply chain and gas prices. “But that’s an argument for why Democrats are bad but not why Republicans are good”, well, I assume that it’s a first-past-the-post election and that you don’t have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun the other guy.
To answer Chip’s question: “What good can the Republican party do for us, in what way is it going to make our lives better than the Democratic party?”
“It’ll be easier to buy food. It’ll be like it was four years ago, when you were better off. Because you were better off four years ago, weren’t you?”
Is that a sales pitch that resonates?Report
Finally! Some progress.
I think Chip is looking for something a little more concrete than “It’ll be easier to buy food.” How? What do the R’s have in mind that’s going to accomplish that?
Honestly, I expect a little better from the commenters here. To sum up, the proposals thus far are:
1. Depress voter totals (Jaybird)
2. Vote R or more people die (Koz)
3. (sorta) Deride trans people (Pinky)
The intellectual right is hardly distinguishing itself here.Report
I mean, Republicans tend to produce higher unemployment, less economic growth, and lower wage growth than Democrats, but they do produce slightly lower inflation, on average, so if you want to throw out everything but inflation, you should vote for Republicans; otherwise, if you’re only considering economic factors, you should vote Democrat .
Incidentally, I plan to vote for neither, but I’m not going to vote based on relative economic performance.Report
Slade, I believe that Chip is a #2 as well.
So my arguments to Chip would involve mishandling of stuff like the economy and the supply chain and whatnot.
Given that Chip himself is a “I will crawl over broken glass to vote for the Democrat!” voter, my arguments that involve him will involve getting him to argue for defunding the police at the same time as arguing for police unions.
My proposals are not limited to merely depressing #2 turnout. They also include explaining that the democrats would be worse than the republicans on such things as:
Immigration
The economic recovery
Crime
Inflation
Gas Prices
Gun Violence
Taxes
What is that based on, you ask?
An ABC News/Ipsos poll that has Biden disapproval at 60% or higher for each one of those topics.
“But that’s not persuasive to people who would crawl over broken glass to vote for the Democrat!”, you may point out. “I *APPROVE* of Biden on those things!”, you may assert.
Yeah. I know. That’s why, in my first comment, I acknowledged that such people existed.
My arguments are more for the #3s who could go either way. When it comes to the #2s, it’s more to get them to say “nah, I’ll stay home.”
Because, as I said at the beginning, #2s can’t be talked into voting Republican. If they vote at all, they’ll be voting for Biden.
But to deal with your questions:
I don’t know. My sales pitch in this thought experiment is not “here’s a set of policies”.
It’s “vote for the people who aren’t in power and weren’t in power when the itshay hit the anfay.”Report
I’ll agree with you that Chip is likely unpersuadable. But I also contend that is immaterial to the question he asks.
He asks, “What good can the Republican party do for us, in what way is it going to make our lives better than the Democratic party?” Your answer, “We’re not Dems.” is not a good faith response to the question. Maybe that’s the best you have, which I suppose is an answer of a sort.
I think the treating the premise of, as you say, a thought experiment as genuine has to be the least we can expect from such an exercise.Report
My answers, were I trying to persuade people, would be to look at the stuff that Biden is polling poorly at and say “Republicans are better on these things.”
That’s it.
It’s not to put together a paper like Ezra Klein and explain how murder rates will improve under a regime with DAs who are “tough on crime”.
It’s to point to Chesa Boudin and say “This is what Democrats actually believe… vote Republican if you want a DA who will not say that murderers are throwing temper tantrums.”
It’s to point to the price of bacon and say “Democrats want you to pay more for meat and gas because of their Green agenda. Vote Republican if you want to feed your family and fill up your car for less than $3/gallon.”
It’s to point to inflation and say “Remember when inflation was 2%?”
“But that’s not a *POSITIVE* message!”, you may say.
“No duh”, as we said in the 1980’s.
I’m making a sales pitch. Not a policy proposal.Report
Usually a sales pitch has at least a little meat to it. If someone came into your office with a replacement for a balky piece of software, would “Well, it’s not what you have now.” be sufficient?Report
Depends on whether the balky piece of software we bought preceded 9.1% inflation within the company.
“My software won’t do that”, I could pitch to the Director of Finance.
“But the really knowledgeable people in the engineering department will know that 9.1% inflation is really complicated! And, besides, abortion!”
“Yeah, but I was asked to put together a sales pitch that would appeal to an audience that includes non-Christians and seculars; women who want the right to contraception and abortion; gays and trans people; Non-white people and ethnic minorities. All of whom have to put gas in their car and food on their family. So I’m going to focus on inflation and how the old software caused it. Maybe I’ll put together some clips that show the press secretary denying that inflation existed at all.”
“Well, *I* wouldn’t buy the software for use in my own home.”
“Neither would I.”Report
This voter is rolling his eyes.
It’s OK to say you have nothing, really.Report
This is why I opened with my caveat that “there are three groups of voters”.
Seriously. I thought that that part was important enough to put first.Report
Chip defined the audience. You redefining it does no justice to the question.Report
It depends on whether or not you think non-Christians and seculars; women who want the right to contraception and abortion; gays and trans people; Non-white people and ethnic minorities have to buy food and gas.
If you think that every single member of those people is a member of group #2, then there is no sales pitch I could possibly make to those folks to get them to vote for DeSantis.
Like, I *OPENED* with acknowledging that there are people out there who will never vote Republican.
It is *NOT* *POSSIBLE* for me to put together an argument that will appeal to people in group #2 and get them to vote for DeSantis! The only play is to get them to say “Meh, I’ll stay home that day”!
But persuadables?
Well, I think that there are things that I could talk about that could swing persuadables.
Immigration
The economic recovery
Crime
Inflation
Gas Prices
Gun Violence
Taxes
What is that based on, you ask?
An ABC News/Ipsos poll that has Biden disapproval at 60% or higher for each one of those topics.Report
Well, we’ve reached that point in the sales pitch where I realize you actually have nothing to sell and thank you for your time.Report
for someone who thinks Jaybird has got nothing worth hearing, you sure do spend an awful lot of time replying to his comments.
wait, wait, let me guess — you’re not even mad, you’re actually laughing irl rn, it’s just funny seeing how much he cares, right?Report
Nope. I thought it was interesting, if ultimately unproductive.
I’d love to hear your pitch. What I have ain’t working.Report
Remember that I asked, not with myself as the audience, but a list of marginalized groups.
The reason I did that wasn’t a “gotcha”, but to contrast with the sales pitch made by Reagan and Obama.
They crafted a broad vision of a society that almost anyone could see themselves living in and enjoying.
It’s certainly true that for instance, a gay man in 1980 was not very welcome in the GOP. But he could plausibly see himself living in the “Morning In America” world.
It isn’t plausible to me how anyone outside of a very narrow demographic can see themselves in a Trump/DeSantis world.
Their speeches, public posture, the sort of people they gather around to them…the entire GOP world is so openly hostile I can’t even imagine what sort of Luntzian wordsmithing one would require to broaden the vision.
So I asked our resident conservatives to give it a shot.
Maybe they can’t. Maybe the best they can do is, “Biden sux and gas costs too much.”Report
I think that’s where we’re at.Report
It isn’t plausible to me how anyone outside of a very narrow demographic can see themselves in a Trump/DeSantis world.
Their speeches, public posture, the sort of people they gather around to them…the entire GOP world is so openly hostile I can’t even imagine what sort of Luntzian wordsmithing one would require to broaden the vision.
Can you imagine a world where Biden is polling worse than Trump at this point in his presidency?
This is an important question.
If you cannot, we may have hit on part of the problem.Report
I can easily imagine Trump beating Biden, or the majority of voters saying “Biden sux and gas costs too much.”
It doesn’t change the question.Report
I’m not talking about Trump beyond the fact that his approval rating was abysmal.
You have said that it is not plausible to you how anyone outside of a very narrow demographic can see themselves in a Trump/DeSantis world.
I am asking you if you can imagine a world where Biden is polling worse than Trump at this point in his presidency.
I’m not asking you if Trump would beat Biden in a head-to-head.
I’m asking you if you can comprehend a world where Biden’s polls in 2022 are comparable to Trump’s polls in 2018.
“If ABC News/Ipsos called you up and asked you whether you approved or disapproved of Biden’s handling of the economy, would you press 1 to approve or 2 to disapprove?” is *NOT* the question that I am asking you.
I’m certain that you would press the 1 and make sure that people knew that Biden supporters were out there and were enthusiastic about Joe Biden who, may I point out, is preferable to Trump who was, may I point out, bad.Report
You misunderstood.
When I said that anyone could see themselves living in a Reagan world I meant that any reasonable person could find his vision appealing and want to live in it.
I can’t imagine anyone outside of a narrow demographic finding a Republican vision (as crafted by various Republican candidates) appealing, or the sort of place they want to live in.
So I’m curious as to what it is that actual Republicans see, that makes them prefer it.Report
Oh, let’s say “privilege” and then pat ourselves on the back.
Let me restate what I am asking: I am asking you if you can imagine a world where Biden is polling worse than Trump at this point in his presidency.
Here is RCP and their amalgamation of Trump’s approval ratings. If you don’t care to click through, fair enough.
Trump’s rating for 2018 was 42.5 approve and 53.2 disapprove.
Here is RCP and their amalgamation of Biden’s approval ratings. If you don’t care to click through, fair enough.
This week, Biden is polling at 38.5 approve, 56 disapprove.
I am asking you if you can imagine a world where Joe Biden is polling worse than Trump did.
Like, does it make sense to you that Joe could be polling as low as he is?Report
Yes, I can imagine that, easily.
My question remains unaddressed.Report
I answered it. “Privilege”.
Do you not like this answer?Report
I’m assuming this is about me.
I could have brought up many other reasons to vote Republican besides the Highland Park incident, the reason that particular one comes to mind is that, at least to some extent you’d think that libs would want to address that, typically in their minds as a matter of gun control.
But, if I think if you take any kind of meaningful perspective at all, it’s pretty apparent that the prospects for improvement there are very dim. And I’m not just talking about the legal and legislative impediments to gun control either (though obviously those are important).
Beyond that, there’s also the idea there’s some opportunistic value to get a leg up on the Republicans. And then it turns out the whole world votes Republican anyway, which seems to defeat the utility of that idea.
At this point, there really does seem to be some possibility that libs might actually try to understand why it is they are so invested in cultural antagonism towards mainstream America and maybe consider doing something else.
That’s why Highland Park is useful in this context. It’s something that the libs have at least some motivation to address, but given the lack of progress on their terms, maybe they’d be willing to consider something else.Report
Actually, it was just a metaphor, completely unrelated to your comment. But heck let’s address this one.
The people I cast my votes for are people I trust to to do a good job for me AND my fellow citizens, no matter their persuasion. If my guy does something that benefits me and the Let’s Go Brandon guy, great. We’re both better off. Basing my vote on whether one side of the aisle gets the knife is absolutely antithetical to what I view the Constitution as standing for.
Besides, any result “cultural antagonism” anyone directs at anyone else is purely self-generated. I don’t feel any less an American because some Trumpy knucklehead derides the place I call home. Nor do I knock his (unless it’s Florida. That place is America’s sh*thole, no matter who governs it. ;-))Report
Mainstream America. Legitimate Americans. Interesting terminology. Considering the significant support for liberal ideas and ideals in vast swaths of America, one wonders what you think is no longer mainstream. I mean it comes off as conservative whites don’t want to share the pie, but I’m quite certain that’s no what you mean.Report
—-
A big part of the idea here is to encourage libs from moving away from a narrow focus of what they personally want, and moving to a greater prominence for what promotes solidarity for all us.
So in this case, there is a desire among libs to implement gun control so that at some point soon or later the Republicans will be caught in a gotcha situation between gun owners who strongly favor Repblicans and other Americans who are presumably friendlier toward gun control.
In this circumstance, this is somewhat defused by the fact that Sen John Cornyn negotiated a bipartisan gun control bill will the Democrats and signed into law. But it should be noted that this new law is widely thought will be ineffectual.
The larger point is that these kind of gotcha games are silly. Among other reasons, the “traps” they are trying to spring are worthless. GOP can just walk through them without effect, as we’re seeing in the January 6 hearings among others.
Instead, libs should move off agitation and amplification of group grievances and move toward engagement and solidarity toward mainstream America instead.Report
I brought up DeSantis and Abbott because they are leading figures in the Republican party.
Even if we set aside those two though, why are YOU a Republican ?Report
Well, this thread didn’t fall apart exactly the way I thought it would. Glad that didn’t happen. But I guess I can take a shot at the question I think is actually being asked. It’ll have to wait for a bus ride though.Report
Great! Hurry up, bus.Report
OK, here we go. Hello, Democrat-leaning casual associate. I’m a Republican. I think my party is just right on things. Federalism, individual rights, free markets. I don’t trust Ivy League elites to run the country, and the Constitution says what it says. The Republicans don’t always do the right things, but I believe they’re right on their principles, so no apologies.
Beyond that, I can tell you that I didn’t vote for Trump. Even if you lean Democratic, you don’t have to vote for all of them. It’s your obligation to vote for the candidate who can best serve the country. The Democratic Party as lost its way, and Biden is mentally unfit for office.
As for the party, they’ve given in to division and bigotry completely. They can’t even say that boys aren’t girls, or that blacks can be successful without governmental preferences. They’re lost. Whatever you admired about your party (and I respect the liberal ideal), they’ve given up on it. And generally on policy, well, take the way they gave into the teachers’ unions on school closing and how much damage it did psychologically and academically to people who were practically guaranteed to not get seriously sick. Take what they’ve been saying for years about the minimum wage, that it could go up to $15 without inflation, and as soon as wages did increase during and post-covid, we got hit by inflation. And the Democrats’ proposed solution is to send out government checks. I understand the impulse to help people, but good impulses don’t fix bad policies.
As for Biden, he’s basically nonfunctional. Like I said, I didn’t vote for Trump, because I didn’t think he was fit to lead. Biden, I never liked the guy, and he’s never been too smart, but you can tell he belongs in assisted living at this point more than in the White House. It’s not safe for the world. If you’re ever going to vote for a Republican, this is the time to do so. For the sake of national security, the economy, keeping government in check, and for saying “no” to the woke extremists, you’ve got to vote Republican this time.Report
Thanks for submitting!Report
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.
Your posture is what I would categorize as roughly the Bush/ Romney faction, that is, the last sane Republicans.
What I find interesting in light of my background comments about Reagan/ Obama, is how the middle section is essentially just a litany of grievances against Democrats.
We are lost on gender identity, racial issues, teacher’s unions, inflation, etc.
Not any sort of broad statements about what type of America we should be, how all of us might figure into it. Just, reasons a through n of why Biden sux and gas prices are too high.
Only the very last sentence is there the most perfunctory recitation of buzzwords from 1979.
I know its unfair to ask just some layperson for a poetic vision statement, I get that.
But even here, even from a moderate Republican, I’m not getting a sense of how Republicanism is intended to appeal to anyone who isn’t already aggrieved by gender identity, racial issues, teacher’s unions, etc.
I really don’t think you, or any other Republicans even want to appeal to anyone else.
I mean, think of the various marginalized groups I mentioned, and can you see any of them saying, “Wow, Pinky’s right, my transgender daughter really is a man!” or “Hey, as a black man, I think we all should just work harder, and racism really isn’t as bad as folks are saying!”
There isn’t any sense of anything larger than grievance.
Maybe I’ll try to channel 1984 Chip to write a conservative version.Report
If you want aspirational, I could do that. The vision of equality and prosperity without the weight of governmental oppression, where we can each achieve our whatever. My bet is, 80% of the country fully realizes that the Democrats have gone nuts on race and gender, so that’s what I said. I also don’t have a specific candidate or agenda to acclaim, so…I can’t. But today, the president talked about the honor of the Holocaust because he’s too far gone to read cue cards.Report
Jaybird, I’m not sure I understand why you bothered to post this. Did you actually think it was going to be useful?Report
I thought that I could head off members of group #2 bragging that they weren’t persuaded to vote for DeSantis by my arguments targeting group #3 by pointing out that there are three groups of voters from the get-go.
Sigh.Report
There’s such a thing as Democrats who aren’t in your group #2, but it’s a fairly thin slice. I think there’s merit in trying to tailor an argument for the 5-7 range on a 1 to 10 scale of liberalism, but it doesn’t make for a clear statement of principles.Report
So in 1984 I was an enthusiastic Republican, convinced we had the answer for a better America.
Here is what I believed then, and still believe now:
The conservative America is one where people embrace the values of Family. Like when a family member is sick, the family becomes the primary resource for aid, providing both financial and emotion support. This is far superior to government aid since it heals the whole person. Families are the smallest of community entities, the building blocks of neighborhoods, cities, and nations. Without strong and cohesive families, the compassion and solidarity liberals speak about devolves into petty squabbling over crumbs.
The conservative America is one where the nation leads the free world by example, standing strong against tyranny, offering aid and assistance to our smaller neighbors and protecting them from aggression. Where the citizens take a humble pride in their history and traditions.
The conservative America is one where government is the responsible steward of the trust given it by the people, and husbands its resources carefully, balancing revenues and outputs. Government provides the rules of the road for the engine of commerce, but is careful not to restrict the dynamic energy of its people in pursuing their freedom and happiness.
The conservative America is one where hard work and thrift and industriousness are recognized and lauded as virtues, not vices, and are rewarded accordingly. The government provides opportunity, removing the roadblocks that obstruct citizens who are disadvantaged and allowing them to blossom and find their fulfillment.
The conservative America is one where the nation respects spirituality, understanding that for people to be virtuous, they must recognize a purpose larger than themselves, larger than mere acquisitiveness. A nation where the individual is part of a collective whole of humanity and recognizes all human beings as possessing worth and value.
Lastly, the conservative America is one that has a sense of its own uniqueness, a national purpose and destiny as the first to cast off the yoke of tyranny and that we must stand as a beacon of welcome and hope for oppressed people everywhere, and out of the vast polyglot multitudes, form a truly united nation.Report
If only conservative politicians operated that way.Report
Like I said, I still believe those things.
I just found them in the Democratic Party of Obama.Report
Is this translated from the original German? I wonder how many times the author had to delete the phrase “white Christian” while he wrote this.
Only rich families in America can provide care for each other, but the author doesn’t care about those poor people. That whole paragraph was just his polite way of telling you that you’re on your own.
America’s “example” to the world is slavery and Jim Crow. Let’s hope the rest of the world doesn’t follow it. Maybe America could try to listen to the rest of the world for a change, rather than overrunning those smaller nations?
The reverence shown to productivity here demonstrates that the following paragraph about spirituality is bull. The country is run like a business, and the author’s conservative vision is one where the worker had better be industrious, or he’ll have to count on his family for food, because he’s only worth his labor.
As for the ending, you just know what the author’s larger purpose and national destiny are. And if you’re non-Christian or non-white, you’re not part of it.Report
I mentioned that Obama could have written my comment, with its soaring aspiration and appeals to unity.
But he (and millions of other minorities) could have also written the response, and written it from personal experience.
We have lots of personal testimony from Black, Hispanic, or Native military veterans who speak about their patriotic love of an America that treats them with scorn and contempt.
There are millions of stories from women and children about their pious devotion to an organized religion that has abandoned them to predators. The churches that demand their obedience, but offers no protection. That view LGBTQ people as intrinsically evil and perverted.
There are survivors of American torture chambers and political prisoners who are bewildered at the gap between the Statue of Liberty and Abu Ghraib.
The thing I discovered as I matured is that it is very easy to mouth pious platitudes and slogans.
But true love, true patriotism and solidarity requires loving our fellow citizens as they are, without reservation and treating them with enough respect to listen to their stories and experiences even when they are painful.Report
Just look at how many Japanese-Americans enlisted from the internment camps during WW 2 to see how people remain patriotic while their country sh*ts on them.Report
I wonder what sales pitch would account for stuff like this:
https://www.newsweek.com/gop-vote-nazi-white-supremacists-military-police-1724545?fbclid=IwAR2zDistjpDATBXeOhqSFC9vWUdHJrXH3HaMH74vqLkngGbXOnSgpqN_ZmsReport