Summing Up Justice Alito’s Draft Opinion in Dobbs v Mississippi
There’s a lot of legal background to the decision. To really do it justice I need to teach a lesson in Constitutional law and American history, and that could take about an hour, or a 4,000-word blog post that, at the moment, I just don’t have time or mental capacity to write.
To sum up Alito’s draft opinion, he focuses on the abstract intellectual and legal origins of rights. Abortion rights were re-stated in the 1992 case of Casey v. Planned Parenthood. Right now, states may not impose an “undue burden” on an abortion sought before fetal viability. And Alito focuses on the fact that the Supreme Court proclaimed this Federally protected right to an abortion to be founded in two ideas: stare decisis from Roe, and a concept of the 14th amendment called “substantive due process.”
Stare decisis is the idea that once a legal principle is articulated, the courts should stick to that principle, until and unless a very, very good reason comes along to change that rule somehow. In Casey, the Court basically said, “Roe has been the law for twenty years now, so while a lot of people don’t like it, it’s become established precedent.” But Alito says, if the case was always wrong, we should overrule it.
Substantive due process is the idea that there are certain things, which may not be explicitly set out in the Constitution, that a state just can’t do because they intrude on important individual rights. Alito says prior case law provides we can only recognize a right like that if it’s got a strong grounding in our history and tradition. And until the late 20th century, there was no tradition of abortion rights; in fact, abortions were criminalized for nearly all of our history until the 1960’s. So, Roe is overruled, and abortion regulations are going to be treated like any other kind of health and safety laws.
Now, if this becomes the majority decision of the Court, what will actually happen?
First of all, abortion won’t be criminalized all over the country. Individual states will decide for themselves what’s legal or isn’t legal about abortions. We’ll wind up with a patchwork of different legal schemes. Some states are going to keep abortions legal for virtually an entire pregnancy. Others might criminalize abortions after a certain time, or perhaps even forbid them entirely. Several states have “kick-in” laws already on the books that will fall back to about the after-16-week ban that’s in the Dobbs v. Mississippi case we’re getting a preview of. Not hard to figure out that states with more conservative governments are going to impose more restrictions; states with more liberal governments are going to keep their laws; states with more moderate or divided governments are going to find middle ways.
To understand what that might look like, consider gun or alcohol laws right now. Every state has its own independent scheme of regulating guns and alcohol. Abortion is going to wind up like that.
And there is a standard under which abortion regulation laws can still be challenged. It’s a much more deferential standard, but there at least is one. It’s called the “rational basis test,” which means the state needs to be able to articulate some legitimate objective it’s trying to achieve with whatever law is there. Some laws have failed this test. Not many, but some have.
Will some states outlaw abortions completely? I suppose they might, or at least they might try. But not all of them will. And states that have made strong political commitments to securing abortion rights, especially written into their state Constitutions, will keep them. Here in Oregon where I live, there’s no doubt that abortion rights will survive past July of this year exactly as they are now; it’s in the state Constitution.
The leak of the draft opinion is extraordinary. Nothing like it has happened before in any of our lifetimes. The last time this happened was with the Dred Scott v. Sandford opinion, which students of history will recall worked out rather poorly for all involved.
The draft opinion is pretty likely to be genuine. It reads like a pretty classic Alito majority opinion. This statement is not intended as a compliment. While I respect Justice Alito as a jurist, I’d not call him the Court’s strongest writer. This opinion is didactic. It’s defensive. It’s a lot longer than it needs to be and would benefit from an editor capable of more than using the Bluebook and spell-check. It’s deeply grounded in history as a self-justifying basis for law, which is part of Alito’s style, and so is all of the hair-splitting it does.
The Politico article says Alito has the votes of Thomas, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett. Which means this is going to be the majority opinion of the Court. But notice who isn’t on that list of signers: Chief Justice John Roberts. Who, for his entire tenure on the Court, has made a very high priority of building, or rather re-building, the Court’s credibility, gravitas, and respectability as an institution.
Now, it’s complete Kremlinology to speculate about who is responsible for the leak. Anyone other than the reporter who says they know who leaked this draft opinion is almost certainly just guessing. But the list of suspects is pretty small. There are nine Justices. Each of them has four law clerks. There’s some support staff, but the support staff wouldn’t know how the Justices had voted in conference.
The fact that the opinion’s written by Alito is interesting. It suggests that Roberts didn’t vote with the majority. And it suggests that the most senior Justice in the majority, Clarence Thomas, either didn’t want to write it or would have written it using a legal theory that didn’t gather five votes. So, the next-most senior Justice in the majority is Alito.
I think that the break from tradition resulting in the leak may be aimed at either defusing the political response by previewing the opinion, or at trying to get one of the majority to realize that this decision erodes the concept of stare decisis. That doctrine is the foundation of the Court’s claim to be a trustworthy and reliable pronouncer of what the law is rather than what the Justices want it to be. Both of these things, in my opinion, point to someone who thinks like Chief Justice Roberts, someone who cares at least as much about the Court’s claim to legitimacy as about the result of this particular case (as important as that is).
Now, I could be WAY wrong. But that’s what I’m thinking.
And it’s not really important, either. Unless this becomes something that happens more and more; because if it does, there is less difference between the Court and the White House or Congress. If those kinds of political pressures are going to influence the laws we live under, I’d rather those pressures be out in the open and subject to democratic checks.
What we ought to worry about is, since it looks a lot like the several states are going to be given the football of regulating abortions, we need to start paying more attention to who gets elected to state legislatures. Which we ought to have been doing all along.
I don’t think that last graf is a satisfactory response, tbh. It’s very unlikely that Mississippi will elect a pro-choice legislature. What kind of measures can national Democrats bring to bear to protect people who live in states that ban abortion?Report
National legislation. Federal statutes may be contested, but once passed are much much harder to eliminate entirely. Relying on SCOTUS precedent to protect these things – especially with the Roberts Court being fond of saying they don’t want to do what they perceive as Congress’s job – was always folly.Report
I honestly never thought that Roe v Wade would ever be repealed in my lifetime. This is surrealReport
How do you respect Alioto as a jurist? I do not. I find the dance of stating this usually a bad quirk of politesse in our politics. The opinion is radical and throws the concept of substantive due process under the rocks. The only way Thomas could have been more radical is of his opinion wanted to ban abortion under a 14th amendment theory that embryos have a substantive due process right to life.
A lot of right-wing reactionaries are angry about the leak and calling for leakghazi. I guess this savvy thing to do speculate that the leak came from a right-wing clerk so the discussion is on the leak not the substance.
There could also be staff like IT people who leaked this.Report
If I was to bet on who leaked it would be with Burt, that someone in Robert’s camp did it in hopes it acts as a moderating influence on the final draft. If this is indeed the opinion it’s going to represent a major failure for him, and a disaster for the institution more generally.Report
“If this is indeed the opinion it’s going to represent a major failure for him, and a disaster for the institution more generally.”
I can see the latter but help me understand your thinking on the former: how is it on Roberts what other Justices decide? Is there an expectation that he convince them to decide differently behind closed doors? Is that typically how they work… the Justices try to convince one another? Or is the idea that the lawyers involved do the arguing and the Justices decide independently?Report
There’s ample evidence of arguing behind closed doors after argument, but that is thought to subside once a majority opinion is written. Roberts – like all Chief Justices – wants history to look favorably on him and his tenure at the top of the court. This will mean that doesn’t happen unless he gets Alito to soften the language.Report
My understanding is that the negotiations continue through the first draft, as justices decide how much of the decision they can support, whether they’d want sections changed, if they want to write individual, or shared, dissents, et cetera.Report
Part of the mystique of the court is that no one really knows how the sausage is made. However I don’t think it’s controversial to presume that they do discuss these cases and attempt to persuade each other. Roberts, while a conservative, has been broadly viewed as the institutionalist of the court. This IMO is going to be very bad for the institution, and he apparently was unable to stop it or convince the others to take a different path.Report
That makes sense. I guess where I might quibble — and I’m admittedly not very informed on how the Court works — is whether this is ACTUALLY a failure by him or will simply be perceived as such. It seems possible that the 5 Justices who may ultimately vote with the leaked opinion were going to find a way to overturn Roe no matter what and there was nothing he could really do to stop it. I’d be hardpressed to say he in fact failed at anything if that is the case.
However, as this is ‘his’ court and this happened on ‘his’ watch, those who are upset with the opinion undoubtedly will heap lots of scorn his way regardless of how he votes. And to those more into the process of the court, if this is indeed a departure from norms or whatever, that indeed will fall on him.
So, I agree on how history is likely going to remember and look upon this decision (assuming nothing changes).Report
They are likely also upset because this gives Democrats ammunition in primaries and the general. Months and months of discussions about Republicans assault on women. Should Democrats grow a spine and use this that is.Report
The Democrats are doing what you stated but once again it seems to be crickets when they do because the internet loves to ignore it. But Republicans love playing the victim even when they are winning so this is perfect for them.Report
I disagree with him a lot. He’s an originalist-textualist from the Scalia school, so he paints his preferred results in carefully-mined history, and carefully-worded framing of issues, both aimed at pre-determined results. Critically noting those things about his jurisprudence is different than disrespecting him.Report
I think I largely disagree especially with this decision. This is a maximalist stance which reads as close to a Federalist Society wish list as possible and despite protests really does throw substantive due process out the window. From what I have read, Roberts wanted to uphold the MS law without overturning Roe.Report
This court is starting to have this habit of overturning prior cases. In 2018 the Wayfair case overturned Quill and National Bellas Hess.Report
“To understand what that might look like, consider gun or alcohol laws right now. Every state has its own independent scheme of regulating guns and alcohol. Abortion is going to wind up like that.”
“Will some states outlaw abortions completely? I suppose they might, or at least they might try.”
These statements seem at odds with each other, since no state has been nor will be successful in outlawing guns.
“What we ought to worry about is, since it looks a lot like the several states are going to be given the football of regulating abortions, we need to start paying more attention to who gets elected to state legislatures. Which we ought to have been doing all along.”
This. A thousand times this.
Though I’ll be curious if the Dems in DC scorch the filibuster and find their way to national legislation. Is that possible? Or is abortion something that has to be a state issue absent an Amendment?Report
I think its quite possible, but not probable in the Senate. Schumer is too chicken sh!t to do it. Pelosi probably already has it drafted.Report
But is it the kind of thing that will eventually get overturned (particularly by this court) by the argument that abortion is a state issue, not a federal issue? Or do they have room to legislate on it?Report
It’s the 2A, it makes the right stickier. The right to arms is explicit, the right to abortion is implicit. It’s easier to rationalize away something implicit.Report
That’s precisely my point: the comparison doesn’t hold.Report
” Alito says prior case law provides we can only recognize a right like that if it’s got a strong grounding in our history and tradition. And until the late 20th century, there was no tradition of abortion rights”
So … 50 years of history and tradition means nothing to Alito. Only 19th century and early 20th century matter.Report
of course, because that’s when men were men and women were silent.Report
Not the first half of the 19th century, when abortion was widely legal and easy to obtain (in fact, advertised in pretty much all major newspapers ).Report
It’s interesting to see Alito roll out a conservative version of The Tenth Amendment Is Dead.Report
This basically reads as if Alito has morphed into BorkReport
I like the way Burt split this up into basically three issues: abortion, stare decisis, and substantive due process. Leaving aside the world of law, as a matter of humanity, abortion has got to go. So I’m happy about that. I don’t see stare decisis taking any kind of long-term hit here (although I haven’t read the opinion). It’s always been a guidepost but the Court has felt free to alter precedent when they choose to. As for substantive due process, I don’t think Burt nailed the problem with it, which is the conflict between substance and process. Maybe that’s something Alito didn’t get into either. I bet Thomas would have.
As for the states, I’m going to repeat a comment I made a few weeks back:
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According to the Guttmacher Institute, 19 states have either their pre-Roe ban or a trigger ban (which will activate if Roe is overturned). Some of these include exemptions for rape or life or health of the mother. These states account for 33% of the population of the states.
16 states have laws that guarantee the right to an abortion either prior to viability or throughout the pregnancy. These states account for 38% of the population of the states.
The remaining 15 states may have some restrictions. They represent 29% of the population of the states.
(Any typos are probably my fault. I just banged out the numbers on a spreadsheet.)Report
“Leaving aside the world of law, as a matter of humanity, abortion has got to go.”
Could not disagree more.Report
I expect most of the regular commenters here to agree with you.Report
Since we aren’t going to find common ground there, what’re your feelings on the consequences for men who fail to meet child support requirements?Report
I’ve never studied family law issues, so anything I’d say on that would be off the cuff. It sounds bad though.Report
I’m not talking about the law. But if you feel like, as a matter of humanity, women should be forced to birth children from unwanted pregnancies, than I’m asking, as a matter of humanity, what you think the expectations for me ought to be who contribute to unwanted pregnancies and the resultant children birthed from them?Report
I don’t know what you’re getting at. Of course the father is responsible, but if you’re asking for dollar amounts or something I just don’t know. I’m trying to figure out, are you asking a really obvious thing?Report
what he’s asking – which I often ask – is why is the animus against unwanted pregnancy heaped only on women? Why all the comment about keeping your legs closed if you don’t want to get pregnant and not keeping it in your pants? Why, as a matter of health policy, do conservative oppose abortion but support vasectomy? And on and on and on.Report
As always, I can only defend the things I’ve said, and only describe the parts of reality I’ve seen. I’ve never told a woman to keep her legs closed. Heh, that sounds bad: I’ve never told her to open them either. I think every guy should keep it in his pants until marriage, and both parties are responsible for what happens. I’m with KenB on this, I feel like you’re trying to corner me into a position that I took beforehand, a position that I’d assume everyone takes.Report
Not a dollar amount but the consequences for failing to comply.Report
Are you thinking that conservatives would likely be opposed to stronger enforcement of family responsibilities? I see this jab on Twitter a lot for some reason, and the response from folks on the Right is generally the “Your terms are acceptable” meme.Report
No, I’m making no assumptions there. But if Pinky thinks it is so obvious what must happen with abortion for the sake of humanity, I’m hoping he’s thought through even the most basic things that would follow from that.Report
The world Alito and the Republicans want to create is the 19th century world where there were no rights, only privileges based on wealth and position.
Consider this-
Barry Goldwater, the godfather of Reagan conservatism drove his daughter to get an illegal abortion.
Republican Rep. DesJarlais demanded that his mistress get an abortion.
According to Republican principles those two men are murderers of unborn babies.
Yet both are welcome in Republican circles.
It is the same with child support, drunk driving, taxes or anything else.
This is the world they want, where there no rights, only privileges based on rank.Report
no Chip – they want rights to attain to white property holding men, just as they did when the nation was formed. The rest, yes they want privileged by rank, but again only to white men. They don’t want rich black men to have the same options, unless they tote the white male conservative line.Report
Leaving aside the world of law, as a matter of humanity, abortion has got to go.
Hurray for forced pregnancies!Report
Abortion – and for that matter infanticide – have been and remain part of human history for as long as there has been human history. This decision will not and can not stop that. All it does is ensures that in a plurality of states rich (and mostly white) women will continue to get medically safe abortion while poorer women and women of color will have their right to make their own medical decisions stripped from them.Report
One is free to not get an abortion in all 50 states, a fact that will remain true after the rollback.Report
When you turn on your TV and watch a sitcom or cop show, you see a world, a rich multicultural world where women are empowered and independent, a world of interracial couples, gay couples, trans people and they all live together in a happy harmonious peace and equality.
It’s easy to imagine that this really is the world we all live in that all the battles over civil rights and feminism and LGBTQ rights are over and won.
But there is a group of people who reject this world, who have never, ever, accepted this and have been working tirelessly all their lives to overthrow it.
I know that when I traced the line from Trump back thru the Tea Party and Birchers all the way back to the Royalists I got guffaw of disbelief, but the American promise of equality and freedom for all has never been accepted by all and has been violently rejected since the founding.Report
It was never a promise for all either.Report
Some folks seem to think it is and get very indignant when you want to teach history that shows otherwise.Report
I have heard many say that the opinion as written makes overturning Obergefell and Griswold v. Connecticut inevitable as well. And trans rights such as we have them. Is this accurate?Report
And even if it doesn’t, recent history in Florida and Texas shows that precedent and even the law itself is meaningless when they want to reach an outcome.
And DeSantis is showing us the outcome they want.Report
What happened in Florida or Texas that violated the law? Changing the law isn’t illegal, nor does it violate precedent.Report
The governor threatening corporations that dared to disagree with him, for starters. Arbitrarily clogging the border crossing to create a political stunt for another.
And of course, the Jan 6 insurrection, where the leading figures of the Republican party conspired with the sitting President to overthrow a free election.
When the Republicans want to do something, they let nothing stand in their way, not norms, not traditions, not precedent, not even laws.Report
Nothing in the Disney bill violated the law, the border is supposed to be closed, and Jan 6 didn’t happen in TX or FL.Report
The border is supposed to be closed to legal commerce? Tell us more.Report
Except the other part of Florida law that said the Reedy Creek District can only be dissolved by a vote of the majority of its stakeholders – who aren’t the governor and legislature of Florida.
And indeed it still is, yet thr Governor of Texas took it upon himself to require his state law enforcement agencies to inspect trucks inside the border that had been inspected and cleared by federal authorities, and block the movement of those trucks and their goods for days even when his agents found nothing illegal.
NO duh. Chip is just drawing a pattern of behavior across multiple locations and issues. I assume you are trolling in your response because you don’t want to acknowledge the pattern. That’s Jaybird level stuff there, and frankly beneath you.Report
The idea that transparently violating the first amendment is okay if you follow procedural rules is weird.Report
Nothing is inevitable. Just because the logic of the opinion in case X necessarily implies that cases Y and Z must be overruled does not mean it will happen. It is true that the logic in the draft Dobbs opinion does imply that Obergfell and Griswold should be overruled, and several Justices privately think they should be. My guess, though, is that they wouldn’t dare, logic be damned. Overruling Griswold would be suicidal and overruling Obergfell would be practically difficult because you can’t unscramble the eggs. It’s one thing to allow states to prohibit abortions that haven’t happened yet. For good or ill, we know how to do that. It’s another thing to unmarry the already married or create a vestigial class of “grandfathered” same-sex marriages while prohibiting future ones.Report
I think we have to confront the fact that there is nothing they “wouldn’t dare” do.
For decades, we’ve been assured by Savvy Pundits that ho ho, good man, don’t be hysterical, they wouldn’t dare overturn Roe, because that’s just red meat for the rubes argle bargle gibber squee.Report
It’s another thing to unmarry the already married or create a vestigial class of “grandfathered” same-sex marriages while prohibiting future ones
The latter sounds feasible to me.
Red states don’t allow any new SSMs.
Red states don’t recognize any SSMs. (Just as southern states used not to recgnize interracial marriages.)
It creates severe burdens, but on people the GOP would enjoy seeing burdened.Report
This isn’t my country or my field of law, but doesn’t full faith and credit mean that the Federal government can make them recognize out of state marriages?Report
Generally speaking, no. Practically, if you come from a state where the legal age of marriage is 17 and move to a state where it’s 18, probably nobody is going to bother you. But for big issues of public policy they might. States where interracial marriages were illegal used to refuse to recognize interracial marriages contracted in states where such marriages were legal. When the Supreme Court took up the issue in Loving, it did not say that FF&C required them to recognize interracial marriages lawfully contracted elsewhere, it said those states couldn’t prohibit interracial marriage period.Report
In fact, it was against the law for Virginians to travel to another state and get married there. Sound familiar?Report
I had forgotten that. Thanks.Report
Not inevitable but it is a maximalist stance which casts doubt on the concept of substantive due process which is how decisions like Griswold and Obergefell came about.Report
I lost any ability to regard the Republicans as a political party, but instead see them as a revolutionary faction intent on imposing their minority vision on an unwilling majority.
So I regard it as a fools errand to argue about this or that Republican principle, since they have shown that they are entirely outcome driven and laws, principles and theories are just tools of convenience deployed strategically.Report
Quick note for y’all — this explainer was put together REALLY fast, of necessity to get it out. Have at it on the issues, of course; but as for the sum-up, well, it was a first pass read and on-the-spot reaction to the fact of a leaked draft opinion, which itself has me reeling. So I beg for mercy if I have any errors.
Anyway, enjoy the debate.Report
I dropped by this morning, wondering if Burt Likko wrote about this.
Hello, Burt! (Kazzy, Jaybird, North, et alia).Report
Hi JHG!Report
JHG!Report
Well looks like they’re going for it.
Obviously, an appalling decision from a pro-choice point of view. As someone who grew up in Canada, however, I can view this with a certain grim satisfaction because I very much doubt Americans are that different from the rest of the industrialized west and the consensus across those peoples amounts to allowing easy unrestricted abortion in the 1st trimester (the overwhelming majority of abortions) and then increasing restrictions in the succeeding trimesters.
People have been having their cake and eating it too on Roe for as long as I’ve been politically aware. Always swift to denounce it and abortion while comfortable in the assurance that it’d be there if they needed it. That will no longer be the case. There’ll be no hiding now- sides will have to be taken.
We’ve seen the worst the pro-lifers could muster on a permissive abortion regime; now they’re going to have to wear the worst pro-choicers can muster in restrictive abortion regimes. Every time a woman dies from complications of a pregnancy that she was compelled by her state to carry to term they will have to wear it. I don’t think they’re even remotely ready for it.Report
This is the same mistake you made with Trump: assuming there are limits and consciences.Report
Oh no, I’m not assuming the pro-lifers have any limits but there’re a lot of indifferent voters who fall into neither camp who’ll be getting some pretty sharp dispelling of their illusions under a pro-life order.Report
They got that with Rump too and then MORE of them voted for him the second time.Report
That’s because Trump didn’t accomplish anything except appointing judges and cutting taxes. A-political types pay zero attention to that stuff. They paid a little attention when he fished up the Covid response though.Report
the consensus across those peoples amounts to allowing easy unrestricted abortion in the 1st trimester (the overwhelming majority of abortions) and then increasing restrictions in the succeeding trimesters.
Roe in a nutshell.Report
Yes, I am well aware, which to my mind is why Roe’s always been so popular in polling. In being a court decision, however, it always also had a patina that allowed people to take it for granted.Report
Sure they are because they don’t believe it will be them who will suffer this fate.Report
Their cause will wear it, and I don’t think pro-lifers are ready to try and defend those outcomes.Report
They already are down here.Report
Then it’s just a matter of time before they’ll have to deal with a Savita Halappanavar scenario.Report
They will either shrug it off as God’s will, or they will say the woman didn’t do enough to prevent herself from being in that position.
You expect too much rationality and compassion from these people.Report
You seem to be under the misconception that I’m talking about pro-lifers. I’m talking about the apolitical middle. Sure the pro-life leaders will say “Oh it’s god’s will and the woman’s own fault for not keeping her legs closed.” and the pro-lifer voters will nod soberly along but the rest of the voters won’t. And potentially a lot of those a-political or “both sides are the same” voters will suddenly feel a lot less a-political and feel that maybe both sides aren’t the same.Report
Good luck with that. Because that’s not what I see on the daily down here.Report
Abortion was always going to be a wildcard in the 2022 elections even without the leak or with Roberts preferred tactic of upholding the MS law and “keeping” Roe on the books.
However, the issue becomes one of passion and a big issue here is that a lot of the single-issue voters on abortion are all on the oppose side. IIRC there was polling that demonstrated that while most Americans do have your position, it is just a factor in how they vote. In other words, many pro-choice people are squishes and this is also demonstrated in how many pro-choice personal stories are done in the more in sorrow angle. No one makes the college kid with the accidental pregnancy a poster child for the movement because abortion allowed her to go onto med school and she could have a child later.
Though I do see lots of people hitting the ground running here including many Democratic politicians. There is also the chance that cooler heads prevail with the leak.Report
Well we’ll have a new kind of abortion story coming out of the strictest restrictionist states now that the RvW safety net is about to go down. Frankly, I’m dubious that the US is particularly special when it comes to public stances on abortion.Absent RvW I’d expect things will begin moving, in a lot of states, towards the western mean- generally available and legal in the first trimester and generally restricted after that with exceptions for the health of the mother and fetal abnormality.
The only question is how long and how much death and struggle there’ll be on the road from here to there. I don’t know. No one does.Report
This is what I assume will quietly happen. One other avenue to consider is that state high courts could interpret limitations on the ability of the legislature to restrict abortion under their own state constitutions. There may be a loose parallel to whats started bubbling up in state courts since SCOTUS officially said drawing of congressional districts was not a matter for the federal courts. It isn’t on point by any means, but my guess is that, much like legislatures, they will find themselves being asked to deal with issues Roe kept off their dockets for half a century. Some will defer to the lawmakers but I doubt all will.Report
Thing is, people who are motivated to stop abortion have already been activated. I cannot tell you how many people I’ve run across and got the impression that they would vote D if it weren’t for abortion. They have been on a mission. This might well motivate them, but there’s only so much blood you can squeeze from that turnip.
Meanwhile, lots of folks have been indifferent are complacent about “Well, of course the right to an abortion – with some restrictions – is here to stay.”
I honestly did not know which way Kavanaugh and Gorsuch would jump. “It’s settled law” is a thing that should be meaningful. Maybe I still don’t know which way they will jump.Report
Bracketing the discussion about the ruling until the actual ruling is delivered, a couple of thoughts occur to me.
Regarding the Leak… there are lots of possibilities and the broadest outline would cover:
1. Liberal Leak (Judge, Clerk, 3rd party)
2. Conservative Leak (Judge, Clerk, 3rd party)
My hunch is that 3rd party is a strong contender in most circumstances. But, I’d weigh it *more* heavily as likely on the Liberal side… that is, a non-Judicial person would be more motivated on the liberal side to release early. I just don’t see any particular judicial benefit for it… mostly downside.
My other hunch, contra esteemed OT vets here is that it would *not* be Roberts… Besides the fact that team Roberts is more concerned with the institution itself, there’s really no chance that this would ‘moderate’ anything — especially since Roberts can control who writes the decision. My sleeper pick (if it’s coming from inside chambers) is that it is coming from Alito/Thomas precisely because this early draft is no longer on the table. That is, the leak could be a hedge against Roberts changing his vote to write the Majority Opinion. Think of it thus: this is what we had 5 votes for… but what will be delivered in June will be significantly watered down and it’s all Roberts’ fault.
The thing I can’t quite square is why Roberts would let Alito write the opinion knowing that the votes to uphold the Mississippi law are there whether he’s on-board or not. It just doesn’t make sense that Roberts votes with the Minority on a principle that he doesn’t really hold (i.e. that Roe was rightly decided)… the whole point of his legacy wouldn’t be to uphold Roe/Casey but to engineer a soft landing.
The leak, in this (purely speculative) theory is against the Soft Landing that the Majority can’t quite thwart.
That said? The most likely leak is just a boring/salacious 3rd party without any particular agenda other than money/access and maybe a strongly held belief that this will damage the other team.
edit: got my state wrong.Report
Just to address a small corner of your comment keep in mind Roberts can write a totally separate concurrence that would allow the MS law to stand on narrower grounds. He doesn’t have to sign on to either the 5 or the 3. No idea whether that happening would figure into the thinking of the 5 but it could serve as ammunition to weaken the long term strength of the holding even if the immediate outcome is the same.Report
Thanks, probably some nuance of Court procedures, but is there a reason why he wouldn’t write the actual majority decision himself and make the other 2 (or 3 or 4) write the ‘separate concurrence’ that would suggest a broader interpretation?
It’s not clear to me that a ‘concurrence’ by the chief would do anything other than state where he thinks the majority is not quite right… how would it mitigate anything?
Edit to add: I guess my understanding is that he has the authority to mitigate precisely in writing the majority opinion.
I suppose it would be a weird scenario in which there’s a Majority ruling upholding the law but a Majority concurrence going further? I guess that’s what’s not clear to me… the concurrences don’t seem to set the lower-court’s agenda so much as signal where new lawsuits might push?Report
It wouldn’t mitigate against anything in the sense that the MS law would stand. What it might do is create new arguments about what the plurality opinion actually means.
Keep in mind they could all 9 write their own separate opinions in which case whether the law stood would be determined by the plurality. However the reasoning behind why the law stood (or didn’t) could potentially be left totally up in the air.
Read Casey sometime to get a sense of what this can look like. Per the plurality of the court the core holding of Roe stood but not all of the justices signed on to the same reasoning.Report
Yes, but the effect on the lower courts was the Majority Opinion, not concurrences or dissents?
Concurrences/Dissents provide possible roadmap for future lawsuits. The Majority opinion guides the lower courts (more or less). No?
That’s the authority Roberts has… he can write the Majority decision and let the others do what they will. That to me is the more interesting part of the leak story… what is Roberts doing and why? As of now, it honestly doesn’t make sense and my ‘way out over my skies’ position is that this leak isn’t the current majority opinion.Report
If the five judges named in this draft are solidly where the draft says they are, Roberts would have to essentially concur with them to write the majority opinion, because they want to trash the whole thing. He can’t write a majority opinion that does anything less and then let them concur more stridently.Report
For Casey there was no majority opinion, just a plurality that reached the outcome.
If the leaked opinion has 5 votes then it is by definition the majority opinion regardless of what Roberts does, and yes, it would release the lower courts from Roe and call into question a bunch of other precedents. If Roberts has a problem with it but does not want to dissent with the 3 he can write a ‘concur in part dissent in part’ opinion but the majority opinion still controls. The Roberts opinion just becomes dicta that maybe does or maybe doesn’t become important in the future and in terms of leverage today only matters as much as the 5 think it does.
Now I assume you’re right that Roberts preference would be to write a 6-3 opinion that allows the MS law to stand on some narrow grounds then have Alito and Thomas write concurrences similar to the leaked opinion. However that only works if other justices want to sign on to the hypothetical narrow Roberts opinion. If they actually want to sign on to the Alito opinion, not the Roberts opinion, the Alito opinion is the majority.Report
Roberts does not control the decision assignment when he is not in the majority. That power goes to the senior Justice in the majority, which presumably is Thomas, who presumably delegated it to Alito.
I don’t think Thomas agrees with the Court’s stare decisis jurisprudence, so would be unlikely to want to evaluate it to this case. He probably assigned it knowing that he couldn’t keep a majority with the way he would write it.
My own intuition is that the leak came the furthest away in connection to the Justices possible. The last leak in 1979 was from someone in the government publishing office.Report
Right, but my primary question is why Roberts doesn’t vote with the Majority and then assign Roberts to write the decision?
The matter at hand is a law which limits abortions after 15 weeks – which would make the law slightly *more* liberal than much of the EU. So I doubt very much that Roberts is going to make a hard dissent a’la other Justices.
We also know that Chief Justices do this with some regularity… vote with a majority they don’t entirely support to make sure the opinion is written in a flavor they think would be better.
That’s really all I’m asking… where’s Roberts in all of this? Until we get clarity on that (maybe not until it’s released) I’m witholding any comment on the merits of the decision.
And yes, I agree that the most likely source of the leak is a 3rd party of some sort.Report
Walking through the process: after briefs are filed and oral arguments heard, the Justices meet in private and vote on _how_ they would decide the case. I don’t think this is a simple up-or-down vote, but a thumbprint of the legal framework they believe controls the outcome. I assume five Justices voted more or less to overrule Casey. Unless Roberts says, me too!, I’m not sure how gets to be in such a majority and control the opinion.
What Roberts can try to do is cobble together a dissenting framework that appeals to enough of the (initial) majority and minority to constitute the eventual majority opinion. I think Emma had a piece on an Alito dissent earlier this year that got some (IMHO unfair) criticism in the comments for being too long for a dissent. I think Alito clearly must have had the majority at conference and lost it either because his written opinion raised second thoughts or the dissent rose the challenge of persuading a new majority.Report
The plot thickens:
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3475384-chief-justice-roberts-orders-probe-into-supreme-court-leak/Report
if he was going to try and attempt to salvage the Court’s reputation he had no choice. My guess is this drags on and eventually disappears from sight.Report
This makes me think the leak may play to the benefit of those supporting the decision as currently offered. Roberts statement that “[t]o the extent this betrayal of the confidences of the Court was intended to undermine the integrity of our operations, it will not succeed,” makes me think there will now be enormous pressure to see little change between what was leaked and what actually comes out officially. ANY change that seems to work against what Alito wrote will inevitably be attributed to the leak itself (regardless of what actually motivates the change). In a way, this may tie the Court’s hands.
ETA: Which is not to say that the leak came from someone supporting the decision… just that may be a consequence.Report
Consider what this means though: Internal politics in SCOTUS have seriously degraded if this is a deliberate leak intended to cow the Chief.
Wow.
I mean, at some point the Republican Party is just going to have to explode, right? Kind of like the Whigs did.Report
Well, I’m not saying that was the intent. Just a possible outcome. But yes if that was the intent… holy smokes.Report
And I think that pressure now does exist. If the final decision is anything softer than this draft, we’ll get another “Big Lie” about how the REAL opinion — the leaked opinion — was wrongly stopped.Report
We’ve known this was coming since the balance tipped on the Supreme Court. It’s an academic exercise for some, a real world exercise for some, and that probably matters more.Report
When does life begin is the central question of abortion. There are a host of discreet events, from conception to birth, that could qualify, and opinions on that range from one extreme to the other, depending on a person’s morals. At some point the question of where that point is needs to be decided by legislative debate, as that is how we generally decide moral questions as they intersect with the law, which is what this is at heart.
The decision of Roe vs. Wade truncated this debate, and it the process accelerated the culture war like no other issue. It curtailed legitimate discussion of when that point, the start of life, is placed. Which a society needs if it is going to have legalized abortion. And the passage of time has not diminished that debate, that unfinished business. And we see this as clear as day 40-50 years later, as each side marshals its forces, each side brings up facts inconvenient to the opposing view; the rights of women, viability, etc. And, indeed, many of the legal arguments fail in this circumstance. Stare Decisis! Should Plessy vs. Ferguson still be the law? The Eighth Amendment right to privacy! Do we not outlaw murder at any age? Comparing it to gun control is a fool’s errand, as firearms ownership has the Second Amendment behind it, Black Letter Law if there ever was such a thing.
I believe that abortion is a positive that outweighs the negatives. A womans right to choose is, in my view, one of the greatest acts of personal free will and a cornerstone of liberty and natural rights. I also believe that RvW is a horrible legal precedent that removed the essential act of the legislative process, debate by representatives of the people. Indeed, this has helped set the stage for the poisonous culture war that we currently have. Will some people experience hardship because of this possible decision? Of course, as that is true with every law. Will overturning it put the genie back in the culture war bottle? No, for, as with Pandora’s Box, once opened it can never be closed. But eliminating the culture war should not, indeed cannot be a reason to pass a law. But, at the end of day, we see the result of that foreshortening of debate on an important issue.Report
life begins at conception.
all abortion kills.
sometimes that’s the best choice.Report
“life begins at conception.”
Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence.Report
A cell that can duplicate itself through division, that’s got to be considered alive, right?Report
nope. Viruses are not considered biologically alive, even though they can reproduce fabulously.
https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/lifeReport
Is a virus considered a cell?Report
Doesn’t matter. They aren’t alive.
I gave you the biological definition of life.Report
If a cell can duplicate itself, is the cell considered to be alive?Report
thats one criteria. Its not the only one. And just to be very clear, eggs and sperm can’t reproduce individually.
Interesting that an avowed anti-abortionist has switched form the moral sanctity of life to is a cell alive as an argument.Report
Not switching, just responding to Kazzy.
Would you say that a sperm cell is alive, even though it can’t duplicate itself? If so, that would indicate that a cell doesn’t have to meet all criteria to be considered alive. I’m still not sure what criteria a fertilized egg fails to meet, though.Report
Sperm cells can, in fact, duplicate themselves. (Or, rather ‘make more of themselves’…cells obviously do not always make exactly identical copies or we’d be a mass of undifferentiated tissue)
Sperm have an entire convoluted process that takes decades and a different sort of cell from a different human, but they can reproduce.Report
You’ll have to take that up with Philip H then.Report
I sit only slightly corrected.Report
Then let’s go back to: If a cell can duplicate itself, is the cell considered to be alive?Report
…why would I take up ‘sperm cells are not able to duplicate themselves’ with a person who apparently hasn’t take a position on that? You’re the one who literally said that. Sperm cells clearly can duplicate themselves.
Stop trying to metagame this conversation. I am responding to the words you have actually put on screen. If you are trying to take hypothetical positions you don’t agree with as part of the discussion with Philip, that’s what the words ‘Let’s assume you’re right…’ are for
Philip is also saying somewhat silly things, including blanket statements like ‘viruses are not alive’ which is not something that can be objectively true or not and mostly depends on how you define the word life. But I’m not required to respond to everyoneReport
Philip H in reply to Pinky May 3, 2022 at 12:47 pm
thats one criteria. Its not the only one. And just to be very clear, eggs and sperm can’t reproduce individually.Report
Worth noting that the the aliveness of viruses is contested, at times hotly, among biologists and philosophers of biology, but the issues of viruses aliveness or lack thereof have very little in common with zygotes and beyond. In fact, while there is probably a consensus now that viruses are not alive (or at least are not always alive; they’re weird), there’s a pretty strong consensus among biologists that a fertilized egg is alive in the most basic sense.
That said, contra Aaron David, the question of whether a zygote/embryo/fetus is “alive” is not the central one in the issue of abortion. It’s not even a particularly relevant one.Report
This is where the sloppiness of our language is really an issue.
“Life begins at conception” and “A life begins at conception” can mean the same thing or can mean very different things and who means what by what really matters.
Which is why I generally push back on the supposed statement-of-fact that “Life begins at conception” because it is just too complex to describe in such stark and absolute terms.Report
Exactly. The way philosophers talk about it is the difference between life and personhood (which I take to be pretty much what you mean by “a life”). And even personhood is complex and non-binary (as debates over when “a life” ends often show).
What we want to know with abortion is not merely the moral status of the zygote/embryo/fetus, but the relationship between that moral status and the moral status of the person carrying it, and you can see quite well where the pro-forced pregnancy folks are coming from by how (and how little) they refer to the moral status of the person carrying the zygote/embryo/fetus.Report
The problem isn’t that those aren’t alive, it’s that they have _always_ been alive.
Life didn’t ‘begin’ at conception. All living things have always been alive, every singe living cell has always been alive, until traced back into the past to some undefined point when that started.
Life does not start at any point in the reproductive process, is which is somewhat a tautology. Reproduction is life that already exists differentiating itself into multiple entities that can operate independent of each other, not ‘creating life’.
(And the next step is for ‘Well, fine, independent life starts at conception’, and the response for that is ‘identical twins’ and ‘chimeras’. Just to fast-forward the response and its response.)Report
Actually, you’ll have to take this up with Philip H as well.
Why are you bringing these points up with me?Report
Because your post was a response to Kazzy objecting to ‘life beings at conception’, and you tried to assert that ‘a cell that can duplication itself through division’ was alive.
I.e., you thought that was Kazzy’s objection, that Kazzy was saying that fertilized eggs were not alive.
I pointed out that the actual objection Kazzy was having was almost certainly that life didn’t _begin_ there.Report
You can see I’m asking Kazzy directly, below. That way we can all get on the same page.Report
kazzy
this is not a comment that you need to disagree withReport
“life begins at conception.”
You offer this as a statement of fact when it is not, in fact, a fact.Report
Maybe you can clear this up for the rest of us. Do you mean to imply that life doesn’t exist at conception, or that life already existed at conception?Report
I mean that the bundle of cells that exists at conception and for a while afterwards does not constitute life in any sort of meaningful way such that terminating it should be considered murder.
ETA: But more to the point, the statement “Life begins at conception” is an opinion, not a fact.
As is my statement.Report
OK, so your argument isn’t biological, it’s moral, right? You’re looking at a single fertilized egg and not disputing that it’s living, just that it constitutes meaningful life, right?
ETA: I’m not trying to put words into your mouth, I’m just trying to figure out what point we’re debating.Report
I think that is what you meant, right?Report
I’m pretty sure I meant “You’re looking at a single fertilized egg and not disputing that it’s living, just [disputing] that it constitutes meaningful life, right?” But even if I got the phrasing backwards, you know what I mean (I hope).Report
As I stated below, I’m happy to recognize that a fertilized egg is meaningful life. What I refuse to do is grant that life greater or even equal rights than the rights of the mother until it can survive without the mother.
The rights of that potential life are completely and wholly subservient to the rights of the mother, and should be.Report
Agreed 100%Report
Exactly. This is the real point of contention, and as a result, this is where real issues around how we view women, their status and their role in society, comes into play, inescapably.Report
There’s a rhetorical trick at play here, by way of gaming of ambiguities.
Cells are alive, but they don’t have the same moral significance that a human life does. This is trivially obvious and conflating the two concepts as equivalent is rhetorically stealing base while the catcher snoozes.
When we’re talking about a life, rather than something alive, we’re generally talking something with an independent existence, functional central nervous systems etc.
This makes the distinctions inherently fuzzier than the idea that a fertilized zygote is equivalent to a human life. There are clear biologically based distinctions to be drawn, even if the exact dividing lines aren’t clear.Report
I’m not trying to play a trick. I was just handed the statement being debated, which was “life begins at conception”. I think we’ve walked through good clarifications of the biological meaning. The next step would be to clarify the difference if any between “living thing with a full set of distinct human DNA” and “person”. I suspect if we went through that (and we probably will), we wouldn’t converge with certainty. At that point in the argument, the pro-lifer would typically raise the question of erring on the side of caution if we couldn’t agree on the moment of personhood.
I’m trying to avoid stealing bases. I’d like to go through each point: that the fertilized egg is alive, that it contains distinct human DNA, that it has at minimum the potential of becoming a person, that we can’t say when it lacks personhood, and that in any analogous case we would assume personhood if unsure.Report
A distinct DNA profile is no sure marker of individuality or personhood as we understand it, otherwise identical twins would be the same person in differing bodies. And the distinct genetic profile of a tumour would be its own mark of personage.
If we’re looking for individuality and potential personage in biology, its far more likely to be in a distinct nervous system that can support it rather than genetic profile. That implies some distinctly not-conception or even close to it notions of when individuality begins.Report
me: (states that he supports abortion rights)
kazzy: “yeah, but not, like, my way”Report
It is a fraught question, not because of its ethical implications (though also, the ethical implications, which are themselves not straightforward based on any descriptive determination of the beginning of life, as we’ll get to in a bit), but because “life” is not one thing. From a biological standpoint, cells are alive, in ways that are to some extent independent of the organism(s) that they collectively comprise. For example, if you put them in the right medium, many types of human cells can do pretty much everything that fits the definition of life, in a petri dish). Under an expansive definition of life, then, a zygote is alive.
The next level up, then, is whether, at conception, we have a living organism. This gets much fuzzier, because the zygote, the embryo, and even the fetus at least up to viability have certain dependencies that make their status as an independent organism complicated.
But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the zygote is both alive and an independent organism (so a living organism). Is it then a person, that is, an agent with immediate moral status identical to that of those of us who’ve been born? Here we’ve left the realm of merely descriptive definitions that can be largely, if not entirely based on general scientific definitions and principles, and entered the normative realm. There is no scientific definition of persons (though there are obviously scientifically-informed ones).
“Life begins at conception” is, like pretty much all pro-forced pregnancy rhetoric, dishonest: it is a misdirection from the real question at the heart of the ethics of abortion, which is not whether a zygote is a live in the biological sense, but whether it is a person. Life and personhood are separate, based on any definition of the latter that would survive even the mildest reductio.
It is those reductios that get you funny jokes about the extreme pro-forced pregnancy positions (e.g., “every sperm is sacred”) though, so at least we get that out of their cruelty.Report
I don’t think it’s dishonest; it’s just shorthand. Both side shorthand their positions and think nothing of it. If you dig into any seven-or-fewer-words position, you’ll find there’s a need for greater clarity. No one believes that you should be able to marry anyone you want, or that health care is a right, or any number of positions that I might take if I were typing a short comment. I think we accept the most positive reading of our side’s shorthand, subconsciously filling in the detail to make it make sense, and we assume the worst reading of the other side’s.Report
“No one believes…” … “…that health care is a right”
The UN Declaration of Human Rights signed by the US in 1948 disagrees with you, particularly Article 25:
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
“Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.”
Be better.Report
Thanks for demonstrating my point. When one side says “health care is a right”, they’re shorthanding.Report
I’m not entirely convinced that you are not a disingenuous troll, so forgive me here. I have not been around the comments on this site for a while, and I do not recognize you from years past when I did.
How am I shorthanding a UN statement on human rights that the US signed more than 70 years ago, that says “Everyone has a right to…medical care”?Report
If a statement has implied clauses and definitions that aren’t apparent, I consider it a shorthand. In context, we were talking about the statement “life begins at conception”, and I was saying that it’s an abbreviated version of the debate that we’re having currently on the thread, a debate that I’d guess we’re 1/3 of the way through. Likewise, the statement “health care is a right” needs a lot of fleshing out. The Article you quoted did some of that, but still contained words that avoided specificity. I’m not trying to start a debate about health care or any other issue; my point is slogans don’t use technical terminology, nor should they.Report
If I take your words as they are written, then I will expand your statement to its logical conclusion and say “Everything is shorthand”.
The comments section on this site, or any site, are never anything but shorthand, according to your definition, which makes your statement unnecessary.
If everyone is special, then no one is. If everything is shorthand, then nothing is. QED.
You should still Be Better.
And, now I remember why I don’t comment anymore (except occasionally to say Hi). Thanks for that!Report
It is blatantly dishonest, in that the question is not whether life begins at conception, but whether personhood does. Pro-forced pregnancy people use the “shorthand” because it’s uncontroversial as stated, and forces pro-reproductive justice people to either 1) twist the definition of life to exclude the zygote, or 2) explain what the actual question is, which is not about life, but personhood.
I suppose we could say that all shorthand is dishonest in a way, in that it elides details, and when those details are unimportant, it’s not a big deal. In this case, the details are everything, and by eliding them, the “pro-life” person misdirects attention to an irrelevant (by itself) biological fact.
I might cut the pro-forced pregnancy people some slack if this sort of mendacity weren’t at the very heart of virtually everything the movement has ever said, right up to and including calling themselves “pro-life.”Report
Well, come on, your use of the unconventional term “pro-forced pregnancy” is a worse example. You can’t type that and expect the high ground. (Sorry, bus leaving at 4pm, I’d like to continue but you get the idea.)Report
It is literally forced pregnancy, in that it allows the state to force women to remain pregnant against their will (that is, they do not want to remain pregnant, but the state compels them to do so). Anyone who opposes legal abortion is, therefore, pro-forced pregnancy simply by definition. It’s not dishonest, it’s a literal description of one salient aspect of your position, whereas “pro-life” both is untrue (in that the vast majority of “pro-life” individuals are not “”pro-life” in ways beyond this issue, and in that “life” is not at question here; personhood is.Report
Put more directly: by virtue of wanting to make abortion legal, you are, whether you want to be or not:
Pro-forced pregnancy
Pro-increased maternal mortality
Pro-increased childhood poverty
Pro-increased economic dependency for women
Pro-increased orphaned children
If you do not believe in exceptions for rape and incest, Pro-forcing women to have children that resulted from rape or incest
These are all direct, unavoidable, and known consequences of opposing legal abortion. By choosing to oppose legal abortion, you are choosing each of these. You may not like those things, but you are in favor of them coming to be, because you are in favor of their direct, avoidable, and known cause, and you are, therefore, pro-those things.
You might argue, “But there are ways to mitigate those things!” You can, perhaps, reduce them, through sex education, widely available and free (or at least very inexpensive) contraception, large scale financial programs for women who leave work (for any period of time) to have/raise children, and strong reemployment programs for women who’ve had children (whenever they want to reenter the work force) to minimize or eliminate the effects that having children and taking time off for them has on women’s careers and finances. However, a) conservatives would oppose pretty much every one of those, and b) none of those would eliminate the consequences I’ve listed. There is, in fact, only one thing that could effectively eliminate them (not maternal mortality, but the increased maternal mortality that comes with forced pregnancy): making abortion legal and available free (or, under our current system, covered by insurance when possible) on demand.Report
Assume for the moment that personhood begins at conception.
Assume also that due to the state’s compelling interest in saving the life of unborn babies, privacy and individual liberty concerns were secondary, and draconian state power was warranted.
What logically follows?
A mandate that every girl upon entering puberty be forced to have some form of free state-funded birth control, maybe an implant or IUD or monthly pill with regular checkups and strict penalties for violations.
This would make abortion virtually nonexistent, ensuring a pro life nation once and for all.
Weirdly, the constituency for this seems remarkably sparse.Report
I think it’s fairly clear that life does in fact begin at conception. I think it’s equally clear that this is not the important question. Cows are alive, and we kill them all the time. The important question is at what stage of development a human acquires whatever special quality it is that humans have and cows don’t that makes it wrong to kill a human but okay to kill a cow.
I don’t know. I don’t think this is a question that can be worked out through philosophy. “Fetal viability” was a kludge that never made much sense; cows are viable, too. I would say that it has something to do with cognitive development. Maybe it even occurs some time after birth.Report
I don’t think this is a question that can be worked out through philosophy
I don’t think it could be worked out any other way. The only way we could figure this out is by working out where the balance of reasons lie and that is going to necessarily involve doing philosophy. Also, as a professional philosopher, I don’t like being sidelined this way.
The important question is at what stage of development a human acquires whatever special quality it is that humans have and cows don’t that makes it wrong to kill a human but okay to kill a cow.
This question of exactly when personhood arises is less important than you think. This is because people can have weighty (but not necessarily indefeasible) interests that survive their lifespan, that is, after they stop being persons. That’s why we often have defeasible reasons to respect a person’s last wishes or/and to carry out their legacy. These reasons are not entirely impersonal. The reasons are welfarist in that it is desirable that these things are done for the sake of the dead person. Of course, such reasons could be defeated if those preferences were immoral or if there were especially weighty reasons not to.
If we have non-impersonal reasons to respect a person’s wishes with regards to what happens after their death, we can also have non-impersonal reasons to respect a person’s wishes about what happens before they were even persons. So long as we are not anti-natalists, we would all agree that for anyone whose life is worth living, it is desirable for their sake that they were not aborted. It is not just impersonally good, it is good for them that their mother did not miscarry while carrying them and that she did not choose to have an abortion etc etc. If this is true of existing persons, there is no reason why this is not true of persons who will exist.
Of course, any such reason must be weighted* by the current likelihood that, in the normal course of events, such a future person exists. At very early stages of pregnancy, this likelihood is very low. Rates of miscarriages are high at the start of pregnancy and drop signiicantly for most people at the end of the first trimester.
This explains why any sensible abortion policies must permit abortion in at least the first trimester.
“Fetal viability” was a kludge that never made much sense
Here’s how it can make sense. Foetal viability changes the range of options available. Instead of either carrying the foetus to term or aborting the foetus (and thus killing it), foetal viability adds a third option: Early delivery.
On this option, the pregnant person can end her pregnancy (if she wants to) without killing a future person. If availabel, this option, is, in most cases, pareto superior to abortion.
The only exceptions where it would not be pareto superior is in those cases where early delivery carries a greater risk to the mother’s health than abortion.
This is why any reasonable abortion policy should, without placing undue risk on the woman’s health, place restrictions on abortion that are sensitive to foetal viability.
If, for instance, at 32 weeks, a woman no longer wished to continue her pregnancy and an early delivery was just as risky as abortion, it would be ghastly to carry out the abortion rather than the early delivery.
Note that this claim is heavily dependent on early delivery being no more risky than abortions. I don’t know what the relative risks are and a brief internet search has claims that seem all over the place (and are not specific to early induced deliveries either).
Let me modify Thompson’s violinist example. Suppose you wake up to find yourself hooked up to a violinist as a kind of human life-support and there are two ways to unhook yourself. One way allows you to unhook yourself without directly killing the violinist (e.g. just by pulling out the iv plugs). The second way involves killing the violinist (e.g. by strangling him with the IV chord and then pulling out the plug). No sane morality could permit the second option.
As medical technology improves and foetuses become more viable earlier, non-lethal ways to prematurely end one’s pregnancies get more available. We can expect that abortion policies that are especially permissive in the third trimester will tend to get less permissible as the relevant medical technology becomes more widely available.
*This can be done either in a gradational way or we may treat these reasons as kicking in only once we are sufficiently confident that a future person will resultReport
This is a good comment and starts to get at something that hasn’t been touched on enough in the OT discussion but which I think will become a major part of this debate, and that is what we understand about the earliest days of pregnancy. I am going to riff on it.
While it’s accurate in a sense to understand the potential for a human life in an embryo this skips over how much is up in the air in the early days of a pregnancy. Many fertilized eggs/embryos never implant in the uterus. Many that do end up in miscarriages so early the woman doesn’t even know she was very briefly pregnant in the first place (‘chemical pregnancies’). Rates of miscarriage remain significant well into the first trimester and the science on why that is isn’t great. Sometimes genetic testing can identify a reason in later miscarriages but quite often it can’t. There’s also all kinds of potential for acute medical issues that before modern medicine were a death sentence.
Now, there may be a certain highly principled ‘it is not for us mere mortals to decide’ stance one can take here. But it’s also reasonable to say that whatever magic happens in the creation of a person hasn’t yet. Further, in light of the very real implications for womens health that go hand in hand with these matters I think that in practice the former view ends up at best being the approach of an ostrich. It’s an attempt to draw a bright line that doesn’t exist and really will will cut off life saving medicine to women. If one isn’t handwringing the perils of playing God with other critical medical care it follows that one really needs a good reason to do it in this instance.
Any of our female readers will be looking at my comment and saying ‘well duh’ but since we’re mostly dudes in the comments I think it’s worth really grounding this in an aspect of biology that is not in the forefront of our lives like it can be for women. I say all of this as a ‘safe, legal, and rare’ guy who is morally troubled by truly elective abortion of an apparently healthy pregnancy. Nevertheless I think we’re all about to be called to really ground our thinking.
Regarding viability, the English common law drew the line at what was called ‘quickening’ i.e. when the movements of the unborn can be felt by the mother. I’d therefore also dissent from Brandon’s point that it is arbitrary and the better our technology becomes the larger viability is going to loom. It’s also why I think public policy will inevitably inch back in that direction, whatever happens with Roe.Report
On top of that, it is extremely absurd to take the claim of ‘This is a living person that we need to protect by law’ and ignore the fact that something like 75% of such ‘living people’ die by accident, a good deal unnoticed.
That is, frankly, sheer lunacy for society to do. It’s like having a speed limit on one section of highway and ignoring cars careening down sidestreets and through backyards and houses and running over people to such an extent we literally don’t even keep count, to the extent it is more than all other causes of death put together…but on that one stretch of highway, that speed limit is really important.
If people actually cared about this, they’d outline unprotected penis-in-vagina sex and require all pregnancies to be created in a lab, where at least this can be monitored and the death rate somewhat reduced with genetic testing.
And thanks to the Supreme Court, these laws will now be legal! Woo! Let’s do this!Report
I had thought about editing that line to clarify my meaning, and can’t remember why I didn’t. What I meant was that this isn’t an issue that can be worked out purely through a priori philosophical reasoning. Philosophy can play a role, but the neuroscience is pretty important, too.
Regarding respecting the wishes of the dead, I think that we do this more for the sake of the living than the sake of the dead. If death were a one-off game, i.e.. if we were immortal and then for some reason one or more people died and we were reasonably sure that this would never happen again, I think it would be fine to ignore the wishes of the dead. They’re dead, so what do they care? But people who are alive now know that they will likely be dead someday, and want to know that their wishes will be respected within reason. Furthermore, inheritance gives people an incentive not to consume all their wealth before dying, which fosters economic growth through capital accumulation.
There are important asymmetries between post-life and pre-life. First, from the perspective of the living, pre-life is in the past, and post-life is in the future. We can worry about what will happen after we die, but not about whether we might be aborted before being born, because that already hasn’t happened. Furthermore, not only are the unborn unable to act in response to the risk of being aborted, but to the best of our knowledge (here’s where the neuroscience comes in), they are not even conscious of said risk, or of existing at all, and thus they experience no loss when aborted.
From a pro-natalist view: If abortion is bad because it deprives a potential person of the right to exist, then is failure to get pregnant in the first place equally bad? Drawing a distinction between the two just seems like status quo bias to me.
Regarding fetal viability: The viability discussed in Roe v. Wade is purely hypothetical. Early delivery at, say, 27 weeks is not a real option. Saving a baby born this early is extremely expensive and labor intensive, and comes with dramatically increased risk of long-term health problems for the child. The argument is that if a baby is developed to the point where it might theoretically survive outside the womb with heroic medical interventions, it’s developed enough to deserve a right to life. There’s just no logical connection between the two.
Even if perfectly safe early delivery were possibe, the question of whether abortion should be banned in favor of early delivery still hinges on the question of whether a fetus should have a right to life. If the fetus has no right to life, then abortion is an acceptable alternative even to a painless and costless early delivery.
That said, gaming out the development of artificial incubators is fascinating. For decades, abortion activists have been relying primarily on the “My body, my choice” slogan. So what happens when that’s no longer a factor, and courts decide that the father can demand delivery of the fetus to an incubator, and collect child support from the mother who wanted to abort? After decades of MRAs demanding the ability to opt out and feminists arguing that women should have full control but only half the responsibility, I suspect that feminists are going to come around very quickly to the idea that one parent should be able to opt out.Report
They’re dead, so what do they care?
I’m assuming that you’re relying on the thought that they cannot be worse off for having their wishes ignored because they are dead and wouldn’t know any different.
Presumably people have an interest in states of affairs that they are not aware of. Consider a person Jim. In our world Jim has a wife who genuinely loves him. On twin earth, 50% of human beings are in fact philosophical zombies. They are identical in appearance and behaviour to their counterparts on actual earth but are incapable of subjective experience. Of course, zombies are indistinguishable from persons. The twin earth counterpart of Jim, T-Jim’s wife is a zombie, but he is incapable of knowing that she is. Even though Jim and T-Jim have exactly the same experiences, Jim is better off than T-Jim because Jim actually has a loving wife while T-Jim does not. Mere inability to tell the difference does not mean that there is no difference in well-being.
But people who are alive now know that they will likely be dead someday, and want to know that their wishes will be respected within reason. Furthermore, inheritance gives people an incentive not to consume all their wealth before dying, which fosters economic growth through capital accumulation.
These kinds of utilitarian considerations give us impersonal reasons to respect people’s last wishes. If reasons to respect last wishes were entirely impersonal, then while not respecting said wishes would be wrong, there wouldn’t be anybody who is wronged. Yet, the intuition we have about failures to respect last wishes is that such failures wrong the dead person. No doubt that these impersonal considerations do matter, but they cannot be the whole story.
From a pro-natalist view: If abortion is bad because it deprives a potential person of the right to exist, then is failure to get pregnant in the first place equally bad? Drawing a distinction between the two just seems like status quo bias to me
Abortion of foetuses over a certain stage of development is wrong because it harms an already existing being which would otherwise have become a person. That’s very different from merely preventing a person from coming into being.
Failure to get pregnant does not harm anyone. Derek Parfit’s discussion on the non-identity problem is relevant here.
The argument is that if a baby is developed to the point where it might theoretically survive outside the womb with heroic medical interventions, it’s developed enough to deserve a right to life
This is a bad argument, but only because the right to life does not entitle anyone to heroic medical interventions. If a foetus develops to a point where it could be delivered with standard, non-heroic levels of care, then it is pro-tanto entitled to not be aborted. The defeating condition, as usual, is risk to the mother’s health and safety.
Even if perfectly safe early delivery were possibe, the question of whether abortion should be banned in favor of early delivery still hinges on the question of whether a fetus should have a right to life. If the fetus has no right to life, then abortion is an acceptable alternative even to a painless and costless early delivery
That doesn’t follow. Consider the following case. A building is burning and inside are a newborn baby and pet parrot. You clearly don’t have an obligation to risk your life to rescue either the baby or the parrot. Moreover, you can only rescue one of them. It would still clearly be wrong to go in and rescue the parrot. If there had only been a parrot, it would not have been wrong to rescue the parrot.
The operative principle here is that if between 2 options one is morally pareto inferior to the other, the former is impermissible. Where saving the baby option is not available it is permissible (but not required) to save the parrot.
The same applies to abortion. If safe early deliveries are possible at some given stage in pregnancy (call this the point of practicable as opposed to merely theoretical viability), abortion becomes impermissible since it is the pareto inferior option. The argument here has nothing to do with whether the foetus antecedently has a right to life. It is merely a matter of what options are on the table. All you need is for the foetus to have some non-trivial moral value. That is sufficient to make the safe and easy early delivery pareto superior to abortion. At most you might say that at the point of practicable viability, the foetus (trivially*) acquires a right to life.
*This is trivial since the right to life is acquired simply in virtue of the correlative duty to not abort. And the latter occurs not because the foetuses have some incredible moral weight to them, but only because they have some non-negligible weight.Report
““Fetal viability” was a kludge that never made much sense…”
It makes sense if you want what you’re doing to not be killing a baby.Report
yet it hasn’t been the choice for most of human experience. Jews consider life to start at first breath. Muslims consider life to being about 4 months after conception (at ensoulment). Animists don’t believe in life starting or ending since they believe life is the soul, not the physical being.
Buddhists do consider life to begin at conception, but they also believe in full and continuous reincarnation.Report
The American Evangelical opposition to abortion is younger than the Big Mac.Report
I think whether it is alive is kind of a red herring, to my mind. We kill things that are alive all the time, and feel no particular problem with that.
The question is: “is it a person?” Because we don’t kill people. Or at least, we don’t approve of killing people. Most of the time. Except in war, or if they are a convicted murderer, or a black man who is in the custody of the police.
Anyone’s answer to “is a fetus a person?” has got to be a matter of faith and belief. Does it have a soul? How would I know, how would I prove that? Viability seemed a pretty decent rational basis for which to answer this question, which is really unknowable.
I object to having the laws of the nation subject to a basically religious opinion, furthermore one that is dictated by an organization that claims to have greater knowledge of Gods Will than I do.
I object in the strongest terms.Report
“we don’t kill people”
yeah we do. we kill people all the time.
fetuses are people and we kill them.
sometimes that’s the best choice.Report
“Where life begins is the central argument”
No, it isn’t. It’s actually only relevant at all to the extent that you believe it doesn’t start until any particular point.
If life doesn’t start until X then the question of abortion prior to X is an obvious slam dunk yes.
But so what if it starts at the moment of conception?
The central argument is where folks have an obligation to a state sponsored compulsion to support someone’s life against their own bodily autonomy.
The answer to that has always been “you don’t”, at least if you are a man.
You can’t force someone to donate an organ. You can’t even force them to donate blood.
Hell you can’t even demand that cops go into a potential firefight to save civilians.
Happy to argue that out if you like but “life begins at conception” only matters if its wrong (which IMO it is, but whatever), and has no bearing at all if it’s correct.Report
I’m waiting for our avowed libertarians to weigh in on this as an assault on personal liberty . . . .Report
you literally replied to my comment and told me that i was wrong
(jaybird’s on vacation. he said so, to you, in another conversation.)Report
Oh, some of them will, they can justify it on ‘rights of unborn’, which is why I’m more interesting in hearing them defend the government able to do the _other_ things that removing the right to privacy allows.
Like criminalize specific sexual positions.
Should the government be allowed to literally dictate what you do in bed with another consenting adult? Should it be able to arrest you because it claims you did something it has barred?
EDIT: Actually, forget ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’. Plenty of states have sodomy laws _on the books_, and they are merely considered dead letter _because_ of Lawrence v. Texas, a decision that was based on the right to privacy that the court is apparently about to say does not exist.Report
Do we need to? I mean, my position has always been that the rights of the mother, as a recognized and established independent entity, trump the rights of a embryo until such a time that the embryo/fetus could be safely extracted from the mother and survive outside of her without intervention for more than a few minutes (essentially, lungs have to be developed enough).
Caveats exist, of course. For example, only the mother can make such a decision, since it is her bodily autonomy at play (hence laws that allow for homicide charges if an unborn child dies because of violence visited upon the mother).
But in the end, I disagree with fellow libertarians who try to establish the rights of a potential life over the rights of an actual life.Report
Strictly speaking it’s the state laws that are an assault on individual liberty. This is a correct interpretation of the Constitution.
I’ve always had mixed feelings about Roe v Wade. I support abortion on both liberal and socioeconomic grounds, but the actual decision was a load of crap. I wish the Constitution prohibited states from banning abortion, but it doesn’t, and it would be hypocritical for me to criticize the Court for ruling to that effect.
All that aside, I’m just not that into circlejerks. If I don’t have anything unique to contribute to a conversation that I think other people are missing, I generally just won’t post.Report
I actually somewhat agree with Roe v. Wade itself being a bit of nonsense, but I feel it’s nonsense that actually needed to exist at the time, in the same way the courts had to sorta invent new ideas of equal protection and whatnot. But, yes, the actual ‘right’ is notable absent.
So I sorta feel a better question for libertarians is: Should there be a constitutional right to privacy? Not _is there_, but _should such a thing exist_? (Whether or not it’s practical to do is something else.)
Things under this would include medical decisions, decisions about sexual relationships and behaviors among adults, that sort of thing. It should probably even include private drug user. (And the fact that it does not legalize drugs under medical privacy sorta shows this entire thing was a sham decision.)
Anyway, so…should there be a _private_ area of human life that the laws do not get to opine on? Things that happen in bedrooms, things that happen with doctors, things that just generally are no one’s business.
A right to privacy.
It’s weird, I hear libertarians talk about the Federal government not having the right to do these sort of things, but that is mostly based in things being ‘victimless’, which is a somewhat abstract idea that doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Meanwhile, privacy is (was) right there.Report
Yeah, privacy.Report
To expand a bit, in case anyone is wondering about my ‘victimless’ comment: We actually outlaw a lot of things that are ‘victimless’ because they are risky and/or cause very diffuse harm that is impossible to point out.
An obvious example, one we all agree on there, are things like driving 150 down the wrong side of an empty highway at 4 in the morning, something that almost certainly is not going to actually hurt anyone, but no one thinks should be legal. There are a lot more debatable examples, like laws requiring maintenance of uninhabited properties so they do not become dangerous. And then there are laws I outright object to, ones claiming that certain private behaviors are somehow detrimental to the social order.
But the thing is..’victimless’ is almost an empty argument, and libertarians are being very…silly…when using it. Laws are not just supposed to punish outright harm, they can also punish behaviors that are, or can be, harmful in a general sense.
You can’t just assert that, for example, prostitution is victimless, because _literally the premise_ of banning it asserts it harms the social order and marriages and whatever.
But what libertarians could have done is make a claim that the government should not concern itself with the consensual sexual behavior of adults, both inside and outside of marriage…_regardless_ of whether there is any ‘harm’ being claimed.
I.e., a statement that that that part of our lives (and other parts) are literally off-limits to laws even if those things supposedly cause some indirect level of harm to society or the social order. (Because people will _always_ be able to make up some harm there.)
And this concept is called ‘privacy’ and ‘bodily autonomy’. But for some reason libertarians just sorta breeze right past it, at least the stuff I read, and focus on the most wishy-washy position ever of opposing ‘victimless’ crime.Report
I’ll write something longer when I get a real keyboard again but the short version is that there seem to me to be obvious limitations to the government’s jurisdiction and most abortion laws are waaaaay on the other side of them.
Roe v Wade did a good thing objectively by arguing for a right to privacy but this right wasn’t recognized anywhere else.
The penumbra argument could have worked, had there been more than one single emanation.
I’ll still take the attitude that abortion shouldn’t be something that falls under our government’s jurisdiction but, if we go out of our way to keep expanding its jurisdiction, we need to be prepared to find that the government is run by people who have different ideas of the good and, yep, we’ve already invited it way past a reasonable threshold.Report
I mean, it was. That case didn’t even invite the right to privacy, that’s from Griswold v Connecticut, which asserted the government couldn’t bar birth control.Report
The Supreme Court confirmed the leak and stated that this was not a final draft. This raises the question of who leaked the draft and why. There is a chance that conservatives leaked the draft in order to prevent people from flattering. The other chance is that it was leaked by someone to allow Roberts to work on getting ACB, Kavvanaugh, and/or Gorsuch back from the brink on substantive due process rights.Report
The one part of this I find darkly amusing is the “Hoocoodanode?” reaction from the pundit class.Report
This is going to make Ukraine look like Joe Rogan.
I’m under the impression that Roe ain’t much more than a totem anymore. There have been subsequent decisions that did a non-awful job of protecting the right that we know must be there due to the emanations from the penumbras.
This seems a symbolic victory but one without substance.
I mean, even taking into account how this is a leaked draft rather than the final version.
Surely we’ll have forgotten this by Labor Day.Report
You came back from the Land of Ice with a scorching hot take?Report
Would you expect any less?Report
The last line makes this measurable.
And we leave in 10 hours or so.Report
Talking about polling: