Oscar’s Laminar Flow Theory of Elite Trolling

Oscar Gordon

A Navy Turbine Tech who learned to spin wrenches on old cars, Oscar has since been trained as an Engineer & Software Developer & now writes tools for other engineers. When not in his shop or at work, he can be found spending time with his family, gardening, hiking, kayaking, gaming, or whatever strikes his fancy & fits in the budget.

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324 Responses

  1. pillsy says:

    This is a really good post. Thanks for writing it.

    I expect I’ll have more to say as I think it through.Report

  2. DensityDuck says:

    “The troll that provokes only flames in response is not the true troll.” – KiboReport

  3. CJColucci says:

    Can we all come to an agreement that when somebody who isn’t anybody says something stupid or offensive and gets a modest amount of guff for it, it isn’t news?Report

    • pillsy in reply to CJColucci says:

      We can but click- and attention-starved media outlets that are actually determining what is, and is not, news routinely fail at this rudimentary task, or even make it worse.Report

  4. cam says:

    Very good analogy!

    To carry it a little further though, I’ll point out that some people love turbulence and dive in to body surface or jump waves. Most (sane) people would prefer not be put on blast, but there are folks who crave attention, even the worst kind of attention, because they are getting *noticed*. And the canny grifters among that set have noticed they can make bank on ‘being cancelled’ by garnering sympathy from the crowd who react in almost Pavlovian fashion to the words ‘woke’ and/or ‘cancel culture’. For most of us near the wall, becoming internet famous is something we’ll gladly avoid, but for some just a tad higher in the boundary layer, it’s a opportunity to ride the turbulence up toward the freestream. I’d put forward that a secondary reason to be careful about joining pile-ons is to avoid giving more incentive to exactly those kinds of folks.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to cam says:

      That’s a good extension of the analogy. There certainly are people who should follow the Popehat advice of “Shut the f*ck up!”, and don’t, because they want 15+ minutes of fame.

      So that gives another indicator of who is a valid target for a pile-on and who isn’t. How they react to the attention says a lot about whether or not a pile-on is appropriate.Report

  5. Jaybird says:

    One thing I’ve seen over and over and over again is when a Joe Schmoe tweet goes viral, the tweets that follow the original tweet say something like “wow, this sucks!”

    And I’m not talking about tweets that say something particularly awful and someone moderately famous quote-tweets it with “Twitter do your thing!” but stuff like a dumb joke that happens to capture today’s zeitgeist. “I’m really looking forward to the next two movies in the trilogy… Smoker and Midnight Toker!”

    Tweet the second. “Wow, I guess this took off.”
    Tweet the third. “RIP my menchies!”
    Tweet the fourth. “Okay, turning off my phone now.”

    Last year, I made a reply tweet to an apparently big name guy I follow with a relatively banal complaint about a video game he mentioned (negatively!) in his tweet. The tweet got over one hundred likes.

    This isn’t even *CLOSE* to virality. Not even *CLOSE*. But it still sucked. Made twitter-nigh useless for the day. And that was smalltime!

    Bill Murray talks about how people tell him “Man, I wish I were rich and famous too!” His comeback is always something like “Try just being rich first. Maybe that’ll be enough.” Fame got him out of a couple tickets. Maybe into a restaurant when he didn’t have a reservation. The rest of it, apparently, sucks.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

      (nvm)Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

      Yeah, I had a tweet get 16,000 likes (it was a silly joke from Welcome Back, Kotter), and Twitter was hopeless for a week. And that’s still not close to viral.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Mike Schilling says:

        “Yeah, I had a tweet get 16,000 likes (it was a silly joke from Welcome Back, Kotter), and Twitter was hopeless for a week. And that’s still not close to viral.”

        “The tweet got over one hundred likes. This isn’t even *CLOSE* to virality. Not even *CLOSE*. But it still sucked. Made twitter-nigh useless for the day. And that was smalltime!”

        I’m not on Twitter. But if a regular person having a Tweet become somewhat popular (is popular even the right word?) makes the platform basically unusable then… what is the point of Twitter? Why Tweet at all?Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Kazzy says:

          OOH OOH!
          OOH OOH! Pick Me! Pick Me!Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

          Micro-blogging plus micro-commenting.

          You see someone write a post about breakfast. Hey! You have opinions about breakfast! I put basted eggs between pancakes surrounded by sausage links!

          You see someone write a post about the Billie Jean music video. Hey! My sister put a hole in the drywall doing that dance move!

          You see someone write a post about Donald Trump claiming to get a hole in one. I think he faked it!

          You see someone write a post about Will Smith slapping Chris Rock and using Scientology to explain why the slap happened the way it did! What? Will Smith is a Scientologist? Wait, After Earth was a Scientology fable of sorts? What?

          Every .3 seconds a new take. A new opportunity to agree or disagree. A new opportunity to like.

          It’s trading small pieces of your sanity to eldritch horrors who make you feel more understood than you’ve ever felt before.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

            So you just wanna read others’ takes? Or you wanna share your own but not TOO widely?Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

              Occasionally, I write an absolute banger.

              I feel a mix of disappointment and relief when it gets absolutely no engagement.

              Report

            • Marchmaine in reply to Kazzy says:

              You want just enough sunlight to make it sparkle. But the full power of the sun will kill mere mortals.

              Basically, unless you take special precautions anything you say can and will be used against you. Every tweet is ‘available’ to anyone, but not everyone will see any given tweet.

              A little like sheep in a herd; as long as you’re running in the anonymous herd you’re safe. The minute you get singled out? Dinner.

              Reminds me of Bean Dad.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Marchmaine says:

                It all seems so foreign to me but that is because my use of — and goals, I guess you could call them? — for social media is so different.

                I have done several large purges of Facebook… I was actually under 100 friends for a while and the main reason I’m back up around 200 now is because of folks I’ve connected to as an adult, primarily the parents of my kids’ friends. FB Groups remain a pretty common way to mass communicate, especially for informal groupings.

                My rule of thumb was, “Would this person actually care to know that I died?” and if I wasn’t confident that their reaction would be more than, “That guy I knew once? Oh.” then they got the boot. Not because of any value judgement on them but if I wasn’t important enough for them to care about my death, then why did they need to know about my random goings on (most of which involve mocking my own children)?

                Instagram is an even smaller group of folks I allow to follow me because I don’t find it has the real social cohesiveness that FB can sometimes offer.

                So the idea of wanting to reach strangers/mass amounts of people is odd to me. Odder still is wanting to thread the needle between, “Hey, I got some cool sunshine on my funny joke!” and “No one knows I exist!” on one end and “Oh crud the whole world knows what I think about the burrito roller at the Chipotle on Main Street!”

                Power to those who like it and make it work… just not something I can make heads or tails of for myself.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Kazzy says:

                For most of social media you more or less curate your group; in Soviet Twitter the group curates you.Report

              • Douglas Hayden in reply to Marchmaine says:

                If I remember right, I put it this way:

                Every day there’s a main character of Twitter. The game is not to be the main character. The challenge is that if no main character is readily available, one will be chosen at random.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Douglas Hayden says:

                … and then there’s Ben Dreyfus.

                But yeah, that’s a good way to put it.Report

        • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

          I’ve had a few tweets quasi-blow up (though none got into the lofty heights of 16k likes) the little dopamine hit from each “like” is pretty nice.

          You gotta turn off notifications for likes from people you don’t follow, though, or else it gets really annoying really fast.Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    The problem is that there is no definition of who is and who is not elite and at the roots of this disagreement are another product of partisan divides and how ideology shapes how we view the world.

    I have said this a billion times before but my view of elite is people who control capital. Investment bankers, local gentry like the paving contractors and car dealership owners, etc. People who can call the local and not local politicians and actually get them on the phone or get a higher up aide. A lot of people on the right seem to think of elite in terms of cultural elite.* This is how a public school teacher in a third floor walkup with some roommates in Brooklyn becomes an elite if she knows a thing or two about contemporary art. There is an old-school and sexist assumption that the teacher in the Brooklyn walk-up will eventually marry an I-banker though.**

    *I have a lot of theories on why this split exists. Some of it is just purely cynical political calculation, some of it is resentment, another part of it goes back to Shaw’s observation that “morals are for the middle classes. The rich don’t need them and the poor can’t afford them.” One of the things that has struck me about resentment for normal, bougie , college-educated liberals is that a lot of it seems based on how boring they can be operationally. A kind of rage at “What is the purpose of being a liberal if all you want to do is read a good book at home or have a dinner party with the latest recipe you found in the Times’ cooking section?” One of the interesting things about the Trump era is the rise of the party-hard conservative. The prime examples of this are Boebert, Gaetz, and MTG. They come from a wide range of economic circumstances. Boebert had nothing to lose from bad behavior. Gaetz and MTG seem to have enough money to insulate themselves from any consequences. Most posters here probably have everything to lose from going off the rails too much though regardless of our political ideologies.

    **To be slightly fair, it is still a built in assumption in society that even liberals have that a college-educated woman (usually white) will be able to take a low-paying job for love but eventually marry into the upper-middle class. Years ago, I remember seeing a parody of a home decor magazine on the internet with accurate titles on the cover. One was “Our assistant editor married a finance guy and you should see her new kitchen.”Report

  7. Saul Degraw says:

    My other observation is that cancel culture really does not exist or that it seems better at eating its own than anything else.

    The most recent example I can think of is this.

    https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/books/story/2022-03-24/lauren-hough-lambda-award-nomination-withdrawn

    The story as I know it is that Lauren Hough is an LBGTQ YA author who was nominated for an award. The nomination was pulled because she made some tweets that gently suggested reading a book before declaring it “transphobic” on twitter. The book is another of the SF variant of a world where all the men disappear.*

    Meanwhile, people are bitterly complaining that J.K. Rowling has been “cancelled” because of her views on trans people. As far as I can tell, she has not been cancelled and most people probably could not tell you about her views on trans people. She is still a billionaire, people are still trying to milk Harry Potter for all it is worth, my liberal friends will gladly and happily talk about their kids getting consumed by Potter-mania. It is hard for me to figure out in which way J.K. Rowling has been cancelled.

    Basically, I see this all as a fight of the very online and it sometimes has real world consequences but often not and as pillsy stated yesterday, I have no sympathy for the right-wing preppy bro dude who discovers it is no longer cool to tell jokes about Jews, gay people, or other minorities at the office or in private settings anymore. A lot of it does seem to be old white guys complaining “But my joke about that Korean and Jewish lesbian couple is totally funny. Why am I in HR and why are they discussing my severance package?”

    *Even here is the Rahoman effect. I have been told that she was not actually nominated and Hough just made that up plus people did read the book before deciding it was transphobic.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      From what I understand, people are complaining that Rowling has *NOT* been cancelled despite the best efforts of the people who cancel things.

      I don’t think that cancel culture existing depends on the ability to cancel anybody it attempts to cancel. It can exist even if it only successfully cancels a handful of people and creates a chilling effect elsewhere.Report

    • dhex in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      YA twitter is fun to read for a few minutes a month, but dear lord those people have decided to participate in and perpetuate the worst social milieu possible, and for the lowest stakes. the planet of cops, but the cops all read books for tweens.

      which ties into my own biases far too nicely, and is another reason to avoid using twitter for any more than a few minutes a month. it’s far too easy to reinforce one’s beliefs and prior convictions by relying on the mind-numbing dumbness of strangers.Report

      • pillsy in reply to dhex says:

        Also YA Twitter seems to have very limited ability to inflict consequences on YA authors who decline to participate in it, and zero ability to inflict consequences on people who aren’t YA authors at all.

        One of the reasons I’m so insouciant about out-of-control wokeness or whatever is that it’s exhausting and communities that embrace it fully tend to paralyze themselves far too effectively to threaten shit.

        You also see this from time to time with DSA chapters self-destructing in arbitrarily stupid ways.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to pillsy says:

          It is called the left-wing circular firing squad for a reason and it possibly happens because of their lack of power. The DSA has been better at getting people elected to state legislatures in deep blue districts and some deep blue Congressional seats but that is about it. They still fail horribly in city wide or state wide elections and do not know how to do retail politics.

          As you note, YA twitter only has power among those who decide to participate in it and not much beyond that. So they wield what little gate keeping power they have with serious gravity.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            You know, right-wingers use the term “right-wing circular firing squad”. Everyone thinks that their own side is intellectually flawless but clumsy at execution.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

              I’m not gonna speak for Saul, but in the case of both YA Twitter and local DSA chapters, the problems neither begin nor end with clumsy execution.

              I’m all for Leftward solidarity, but those people have consigned themselves to hells built out of their own awful ideas and complete inability to have a shred of perspective on anything.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to pillsy says:

                My take on the issues with the Democratic Party is that we are too broad based and coalition like for their to be a clear majority base. However every little faction seems to think itself the majority base.

                AOC (who I generally like) is once again making statements that the Democrats are in big trouble for November and it is the fault of Democrats letting Manchin be Manchin.

                I think she is probably right that the Democrats are in trouble in November. I think she is generally wrong that we would be doing very well if we listened to her on everything. The depressing thing about Manchin is that he is really the best we can expect out of West Virginia and things would suck infinitely more if someone with an R was in the seat. For worse, we did not do well enough in 2020 Senate races to reduce Manchin and Sinema to being cranky backbenchers. Instead our dumb arcane rules make them co-Presidents effectively.

                Second, like many progressives, she likes to state that all the polls indicate various progressive policies are very popular while ignoring all the yes but….. caveats. It is a bit underpants gnomes.

                She also ignores the fact that thermostatic electorates have been a thing since before WWII generally but this year could be a big swing like 1958, 1994, 2006, 2014, 2018. Other years are not so big. FWIW, Republicans are only up two points in the polls and the favorability ratings of both parties is abysmally low.

                The other problem is Manchin could probably make his own arguments about why if we listened to him, things would be better, and these arguments would not necessarily be wrong.Report

              • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                It’s where leadership could stand to exert a little more messaging control. I actually think it’s a credit to the party that it can function with such a big tent and neither the existence of AOC nor Manchin offends me. Nevertheless it’s obvious that under current circumstances it’s way more important to find ways to, say, get a Senator from NC than to hold the line in Queens.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

                If you put 2 Democrats in a room and asked each of them to come up with a list of top 5 policies goals, you might get 1 thing overlapping.

                If you then asked them to agree on a list, all hell will break loose.Report

              • Jesse in reply to InMD says:

                The problem is both AOC & Manchin feel they’re where they are (in office) exactly because they went against leadership, in different ways. After all, AOC is a Congressperson right now because she primaried the guy who was considered one of Pelosi’s heir apparents.

                In a world where parties still controlled the purse when it came to campaign spending, you could do this, but even in the good ole’ days, there were Senator’s and Congresspeople w/ enough power or swagger in their own district/state to not care.Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to pillsy says:

                My take on the issue is that many people on the online left forgotten how real English is spoken in real life. They assume everybody speaks like somebody with graduate degree or well versed in activist lingo. When you suggest that we need somebody that can explain liberal ideas in ordinary English or maybe even in fluent meathead, they get terribly offended.Report

            • Saul Degraw in reply to Pinky says:

              I have heard libertarians bemoan their own firing squad. I don’t think the DSA is intellectually flawless. I think they often fail to realize how far outside of the mainstream they are on many issues including among left-center Democrats such as myself who love Elizabeth Warren.

              A guy I know from high school is involved with the DSA. His stance on Ukraine is “a pox on both their houses” and his view on the U.S. in world politics feels very stuck in the 1960s. He ends up being pro-Putin and Russia in effect because of this.

              Likewise, I am sympathetic to student debt forgiveness/reform but the people for whom it is a very pressing issue do not realize how low it is as a priority for much of the population, including many Democrats. But they only talk to themselves and work themselves into a furror about it.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to pillsy says:

          My father was a big fan of YA Twitter. I still remember the iconic photo of him on his knees, helmet off, head bleeding…..What?…..Oh…..Never mind.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to dhex says:

        The interesting thing about twitter is that it is used by very few people and most tweets are generated by an even smaller minority of those people. However among, the people who use it are generally movers and shakers or want to be movers and shakers. It is also quite young. There can be interesting discussions on it but it can also remind me of a continued campus political fight taken into the open instead of the dining hall or something.Report

    • JS in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      “It is hard for me to figure out in which way J.K. Rowling has been cancelled.”

      A cynical person might note that JK Rowling seems to go full and loudly TERF whenever she has a new book or movie coming out, and point out the interesting fact that her non-Potter book series, originally published under a pseudonym (and then later under her own name) to sales numbers she clearly felt were lacking, saw a massive upsurge in sales with her first ventures into being loudly anti-trans.

      (Said book series focuses, IIRC, on a crossdressing serial killer. One would have to be VERY cynical to think that someone’s ego was so vast that they’d loudly go full TERF to sell a very TERFY book because they couldn’t handle thinking they’d never be as successful in their ‘true genre’ as they were as a YA author for exactly one series. Despite having literal billions of dollars to make herself feel better with)Report

      • pillsy in reply to JS says:

        I’m pretty sure it’s only the last book that has the crossdressing serial killer, which was a cutting-edge idea in, like, 1962.

        Have a read it? Of course not.

        It is 900 pages long!Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      So, um, to make it clear: This wasn’t actually ‘YA twitter’. In any shape or form. It was Ana Mardoll giving a review of it. An incredibly fair review, dissecting the actual plot piecemeal. Zie is not part of ‘YA twitter’.

      It wasn’t YA twitter, it was _trans_ twitter.

      Also, it’s worth pointing out that when the book was announced, trans people expressed skepticism about it, and were told to read it before they criticized it, so it seems somewhat absurd to get upset at a trans man reading it and, uh, criticizing it.

      The fact everyone took her ‘YA Twitter’ claim as some sort of actual fact is…interesting, to say the least.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

        The nomination was pulled because she made some tweets that gently suggested reading a book before declaring it “transphobic” on twitter.

        Oh, and she wasn’t actually ‘nominated’ for anything, or, rather, the nomination was just a form filled out and sent in.

        She wasn’t made a finalist, and she has really no evidence she was going to be.

        And thus concludes the daily episode of transphobes lying about things and those lies becoming common knowledge instead of the actual true things.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

          yes, saul degraw, that notorious transphobe, well known for making things up

          just like that isabel fall character, oooooh my what a bad personReport

          • pillsy in reply to DensityDuck says:

            Who accused Saul of being transphobic…?Report

          • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

            I have no idea how you think someone citing an article with a bunch of lies by someone in it, and me pointing the article is full of lies, means I think the person _citing the article_ was lying.

            …in fact, lying about what? What exactly would I even think he was lying about.

            He summarized the article pretty well, and he’s entirely correct about what ‘the story’ is.

            It’s just not true. In quite a lot of ways.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

          And while I’m sure this will go do as that time that TA Twitter Officially Canceled Someone For No Reason, here’s the actual truth:

          https://lithub.com/lambda-literary-cuts-lauren-hough-from-award-shortlist-because-of-twitter-disputes/

          Read the article. It makes the same claims as here.

          And then READ THE COMMENTS. Read the linked Tweets. Notice what actually happened.

          And maybe realize she’s been Twitter Main Character before, Feel free to google ‘Lauren Hough 4.5 star review’, as a thing that happened, uh, before all this. When she went around complaining on Twitter about a frickin 4.5 averaged review on Goodreads and attacking fans, and in response people started downvoting her book, and she decided the correct course of actual was to start name searching and declaring war on Twitter.

          Like, ‘unhinged’ does seem like a very good way to describe her.

          And, hilariously, the actual claim that Lamba ‘removed her’ for ‘her Tweets’, which in addition to use having no evidence for, we don’t even know _which_ Twitter meltdown it was? Was it the _current_ one, where she decided to attack trans people with legit concerns about a book that sent all trans woman to hell? Or was it her _previous_ meltdown, where she compared bad reviews to sexual assault?

          I wonder why, exactly, an organization intended to promote queer authors might have hesitated on her?

          But, of course, there’s some very transphobic media that reports any sort of ‘bad things by trans people’ uncritically, and then the actual media pretends like this is a real story with real facts, and by the time anyone says ‘Wait, that’s not what really happened’, the media has moved on, and it is thus officially engraved as real history.

          Can we please not do that _here_, at least?Report

          • pillsy in reply to DavidTC says:

            For what it’s worth, when I went to double check the story yesterday, the part about Lambda not actually cutting her hadn’t made it outside of Twitter yet.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to pillsy says:

              Slate has a fricking article up claiming that her finalist status was _rescinded_, a thing that is literally impossible because the finalists weren’t announced before that point. Of course, when you read the article at Slate, you find this fun paragraph:

              ?After being told a month ago that her book was a nominee for best lesbian memoir, Hough was recently informed that Lambda Literary, an organization that, according to its website, “nurtures and advocates for LGBTQ writers,” had withdrawn her book from the finalist list for the prize.

              Hey, dumbasses at Slate? Being nominated is an entirely different thing than being a finalist (Being nominated is literally a form and entrance fee), and maybe you should stop taking the word of someone who can’t follow that?Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                Honestly, at this point, I want to pretend the story is true, and ask exactly what the hell this has to do with even ‘cancel culture’ to start with? No one pressured Lamdba Literary to do this.

                Lambda Literary gives out awards for queer writers of queer fiction, and (maybe) decided that a specific queer writer who was currently loudly arguing with and dismissing the concerns of trans people about the problems they saw with someone else’s book was, uh, probably not the best individual to highlight. (Or didn’t, no ones knows, but let’s pretend here.)

                Lambda Literary has the right to give awards to whoever the hell they want, and require writers meet whatever moral standards they want as a qualification for those awards. That’s not cancel culture!Report

  8. Greg In Ak says:

    I agree with Saul. An incessant problem with the use of elite is that there are such widely varied definitions and most of them are just trying to stick a label on someone that means “bad person.” Unless elite means rich person with power it is useless to me. Is a group of POC LBGT elite??? Conservatives would say yes because of…ummm… well they have but why is a real puzzler.

    Cultural power: Not even really sure what that has ever meant but just being liberal or whatever doesnt give you that.

    People are really weird about things that go viral. What goes viral and what doesn’t is often just luck and/or a very small number of hot button factors. Lots of crazy things never go viral. I know “white woman in danger” is thing that more often goes viral. But there are lots of white women stories that never go viral. Why does one over the other. First answer is often , “who the hell knows.” That is a lot of viral; what goes big is hard to explain or just lucky timing. Going viral is a plan that very often fails.

    Groups of people, whether you call them elite or work or whatever dont’ do things as label. They do them as individuals or parts of groups that have their own agenda and purpose.

    Lots of groups will tell you exactly why they are doing what they are doing. It’s not hard to determine most groups motivations.Report

  9. Oscar Gordon says:

    IMHO, ‘elite’ is anyone who can reasonably be said to control something of value, or greatly influence the social acceptance/value of something. So Jeff Bezos & Elon Musk control a great deal of capital (among other things) and thus have elite status. Fashion designers of note control what people want to wear. Art critics influence what people want to consume as art/entertainment.

    Media figures can control/influence our attention. The more a media figure can do that, the more elite they are.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      The power of critics is vastly overrated in the age of the internet. If critics had power, I can guarantee that Adam Sandler’s comedies would not make money and the Magnetic Fields would be selling out stadiums.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      And more people would see movies like Drive My Car, CODA, and the Power of the Dog.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      They dont’ control our attention. We have more choices for media and entertainment then ever in the history of humanity. We watch what we want. I’m sitting at my desk at work with youtube on my phone and laptop. Boom right there i have more entertainment at my figners then 99.999999999999999999% of all humans.

      If liberals controlled the media like conservatives think then C’s would have no networks, radio networks etc.

      Lots of people have influence. But lots of tv shows fail, artists start to make sandwichs during the day etc. Bezos/Musk have power. Very very few people have anything like that power.Report

      • dhex in reply to Greg In Ak says:

        it’s kinda ha ha funny that everyone – esp public figures – goes “not it!” when the question of power arises, regardless of their billions, influence, position, etc. maybe it is responsibility skipping, or just social posturing and/or wise pr stances. dunno.

        a few months ago, in an amusing example, a reporter of note for the paper of record asked “am i the elite?” on twitter quite seriously. i dunno about “the elite” but they definitely possess significant influence compared to 99.99% of the american public.

        that our national memeplex consists of strangers yelling at each other (which then gets turned into “news”) is probably not helping the sense of scale.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to dhex says:

          For whatever reason, a lot of men but especially reporters, seem to have a psychological sense of inadequacy about making a living through something other than physical labor.Report

          • dhex in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            i see it differently, but i would. my entire family was nothing but manual labor, so i grew up watching the ravages firsthand. it sucks. which is a large part of why i’m the first person (near as we can tell, going back to the 1860s when the trail goes very cold) who went to college.

            if they feel inadequate, that’s probably a job for their therapist. there’s no inherent shame in either working with your hands or not working with your hands.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      Two things:

      1) I said “…the ones who think of themselves as elite, or want to be elite…”, which means we are not just talking about the top tier, the folks who exist in the freestream (like Bezos & Musk), but anyone further down who is trying to move higher up the layer, or anyone who imagines themselves as ‘elite’ and thinks they can by pulling in the clicks.

      2) Just because a certain ‘elite’ doesn’t control or influence you, does not mean they lack significant influence or control. I could care less what the latest fashions are, but there are an awful lot of people who care very much what the latest rags on the runaway are. Alternatively, how much complaining was done over the conservative media influencing Trump votes? I’m pretty sure both Saul & Greg were doing a great deal of that complaining, so clearly you think media figures have control & influence.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        I said “…the ones who think of themselves as elite, or want to be elite…”, which means we are not just talking about the top tier, the folks who exist in the freestream (like Bezos & Musk), but anyone further down who is trying to move higher up the layer, or anyone who imagines themselves as ‘elite’ and thinks they can by pulling in the clicks.

        This is a huge issue for the media class, and people who aspire to join it, at least when it comes to the MSM. They have to avoid being too controversial to avoid inspiring a great deal of anger and resistance when they get a shot at a major gig, but they won’t get a shot at a major gig without drawing enough attention with controversial takes and a distinctive persona, which leaves a very narrow needle to thread.

        I think a lot of the angst and intra-media fighting over cancel culture is driven by that anxiety.

        For a lot of the rest of us we have no genuine need to care about this, but the media class cares about it, and is anxious about it, and their elite status means they can do a lot to set the agenda here.

        Remember when comedians used to joke all the time about airline food, because they spent a lot of time on airlines back when airline food was a thing? It’s kinda like that but for status anxiety in a harshly competitive field where any hope of making a decent living is tied tightly to having all the status you can wrap your arms around.Report

        • Greg In Ak in reply to pillsy says:

          Remember Twitter. Having a series of controversial takes and distinctive fake personality is how you build clout in social media and lots of trad media. Being bravely contrarian has been a gold mine for lots of folks.Report

        • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

          You’re going to be upset at me for saying so but this is a very DeBoerian take on the subject. And so is Greg’s addition.Report

          • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

            Absolutely. He’s wrong tons of stuff but he’s right about some important things as well.Report

          • Greg In Ak in reply to InMD says:

            LOL. I’d rather by Hyperborean then DeBoerian. But i do like Freddie. When he is right he is really right. When he is wrong, he is epic.Report

            • InMD in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              I think it’s fair and maybe critical to consider the incentives in the media environment. What doesn’t make sense to me is where we put it under a microscope for people we don’t like and pretend it doesn’t exist/it’s all in good faith for people we do. For a contrarian grift to be successful there has to be an at least somewhat stifling mainstream. And all successful mainstreams rely in some ways on the contrarians to define what they are not.

              I mean, I don’t read Greenwald like I did in his Salon.com days, back when that seemed to be the edge of respectable online left of center commentary. As best as I can tell he remains the most laser like consistent voice out there in terms of where he is and what he is all about but I now see him called one of these ‘Grifters’ all the time. And who knows, maybe somewhere deep down inside he knows his career depends on some level of giving his fans what they want (Freddie has talked about this force openly on his Substack). But if we’re going to concede that maybe that criticism has some merit in one breath I don’t know how we’re supposed to simultaneously pretend that the fodder in legacy media isn’t also being shaped in some similar ways. Like we can’t kill Greenwald for this stuff but then act like Michelle Goldberg is really just speaking from the heart or something, to say nothing of all of the writers who want to occupy the same space she does.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                I think this is fair, and TBH I have no idea if Greenwald is driven by a desire to keep appealing to his audience, and don’t particularly care.

                Same with Goldberg.

                My intense dislike for the first, and mild like for the second, really don’t depend on it.

                I sometimes wonder, when I see certain kinds of deterioration in quality, whether the person is chasing an audience, because it seems to explain why the quality is deteriorating in that way.

                My example would be Conor Friedersdorf, who I used to read pretty regularly on exactly this Cancel Culture War stuff, because while I generally disagreed with him on it, I thought he wrote about it in a thoughtful way, and really went out of his way to engage with the (usually) students who were driving whatever cancellation was bugging him this week.

                He’s gotten less interesting and less thoughtful, and has an audience that rewards him for it. It doesn’t make his stuff any worse, but it’s a pattern that, to me, suggests an explanation of why it’s gotten worse.Report

              • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

                I still think Greenwald’s core thesis are basically correct, and that the work he does and role he plays is important, but that it has also become too exhausting to read him with any regularity. Maybe it’s age but I can only handle so many 10,000 word polemics anymore.

                I used to like Friedersdorf but I also find that it’s pretty rare these days to find him saying anything that someone else isn’t saying better. Though he is one of a few unlikely writers I credit with moving my thinking leftwards on some issues, probably despite the intentions of the piece.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to pillsy says:

                I don’t think Greenwald is speaking from the heart at all. His main purpose is to be a guy on fox news that can be used to troll Democrats,

                Michelle Goldberg is very sincere and should not be compared to being like Greenwald at all.

                Conor F seems to have gotten a plumb position because the Atlantic wanted a conservative but could not have hired an actual Trumper.Report

              • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                You don’t think NYT columnists and people who aspire to be NYT columnists are under economic pressure to conform their writing to audience preferences? Even in the paid subscription, job scarcity world in which they work?Report

              • dhex in reply to pillsy says:

                i don’t think Friedersdorf is suffering from audience capture so much as twitter poisoning – because many of his most vocal critics on there are either doing an amazing performance or are actually significantly mentally ill. (this is twitter in a nutshell, to be fair)

                which may be why THE SLAP was so refreshing (and entertaining) – for once, you couldn’t guess the response someone would have based upon their tribal affiliations.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to InMD says:

                Ugh…Glenn….He is the poster child for contrarian idiot. Lots of media has some real dipsticks but glenn is far beyond that. I’m harshing on him for lots of things but today he tweeted this:

                “The propaganda in the West about this war is like nothing seen since 2001, arguably even worse. The day before invading, Putin said the goal was to ensure the independence of two regions of Eastern Ukraine from Kyiv, along with Crimea, along with Ukrainian neutrality.”

                This is not only straight up russian propaganda but It’s OLD propaganda. The kremlin and allies have moved for beyond this saying Ukraine should always be russian.

                Its all about independence!!!!!Report

              • pillsy in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Yeah whatever it is driving Glenn, I’m pretty sure it’s not a grift.Report

              • InMD in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                To me judging anyone based on Twitter persona is…. we’ll say questionable, especially when compared to their actual work. Now my opinion is that Twitter is a useless medium, maybe even a harmful one, and I’m not on it for those reasons. However I understand Greenwald has quite a combative presence, which does not surprise me at all. I don’t know enough about what he says on there to defend it and I’m sure someone could come up with something I would not like.

                However even if you don’t like the persona, he has had a hand in actually breaking critical news to the country and the world. That puts him in a different class IMO and no dumb thing he says on twitter changes it. You don’t have to like him but I find it strange that there are people who don’t at least respect some of the things he’s done.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to InMD says:

                He has done respectible things many years ago. A lot of crappy things to. Reality Winner not a big fan.

                Twitter may be bad for all sorts of reasons but it is work for media types. It is his job to do that. That drives clicks to his substack and gets him on fox. Twiiter is real work for him and lots of media types. TReport

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

          I’ve managed to condition myself to NOT follow click bait about stupid crap on Twitter, or hot takes about some problematic thing according to Salon/Slate, but clearly enough people still eagerly gobble that crap up that producing it is worth it. And those are the people who are joining internet pile-ons, etc.

          Ergo, those writers still have enough influence/cachet to do damage while boosting their personal brand.Report

  10. Saul Degraw says:

    Here is another story about how elite can be very hard to determine. According to most Americans, I am probably a solid member of the upper-middle class and elite. There is a fair amount of truth to this: my undergrad alma mater has a brand name and I have a master’s and a law degree. I am a member of two state bars. However, I am a solidly middling lawyer and white collar professional. The brass ring consulting firms and I-banks would consider my alma mater second or third tier and only give me a job if I had real connections at said place. One of the dirty secrets of hard to get into but also ran top American private colleges and universities is that they advertise how many of their students go onto graduate school. A decent chunk of this is “I discovered my degree from a SLAC that was not Williams or Amherst (and maybe Swarthmore got me nowhere so I needed to go to graduate school.” )

    This is covered in a book called Pedigree which arose out of a famous Chronicle of Higher Ed article on how Brown and Cornell were second tier: https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/brown-and-cornell-are-second-tier

    As an interesting observation, my wife was not born in the United States. She did graduate school here at a top level. She also applied to undergrad here. She and many of her friends knew about the Ivies and the engineering three (MIT, Cal Tech, Carnegie Mellon), and some of the public ivies. They had no knowledge of the SLACs. My wife did not here or know of my alma mater until she met me. I admit this stung a bit. Most Americans know my college by name.Report

    • dhex in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      “One of the dirty secrets of hard to get into but also ran top American private colleges and universities is that they advertise how many of their students go onto graduate school.”

      how is that a dirty secret? that’s, like, a core selling point for students who want to go onto grad programs, which in the target demo you belong(ed?) to is most certainly a typical pathway.Report

      • CJColucci in reply to dhex says:

        There are a lot of high-prestige jobs that don’t require particular skills or expert knowledge, just intelligence, articulateness, and connections. Most of us are not in contention for these jobs, and those who are generally “prove” their intelligence and articulateness by getting into certain brand-name undergraduate schools — the all-important screening function — and developing their connections there.
        The rest of us need to know what we’re doing, and usually end up requiring post-baccalaureate training. The admissions offices at the graduate institutions are perfectly well aware of the quality of applicants from good-to-great but non-brand-name colleges, so if you’re going into a field requiring post-baccalaureate training, you shouldn’t obsess over whether your undergraduate school is merely high-quality or also brand-name. Of course, the connections cycle somewhat repeats itself at the post-baccalaureate level, Just look at who gets the big, entry-level legal jobs, even if, ten years out, they’ll have their asses handed to them by some opponent who did not go to one of the 14 or so top 10 law schools.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to CJColucci says:

          There is nothing that special about what entry-level types at Boston Consulting or Morgan do that requires a degree from HYPS. It can be done by any reasonably smart college graduate from any school. The gate-keeping for making those jobs all about HYPS largely (and foreign equivalents) is to keep the prestiege of management consulting and keep those fees flowing.Report

        • LeeESq in reply to CJColucci says:

          My working theory is that many people in upper level corporate and professional life are convinced that only people who went to HYPS, MIT, and CalTech deserve mid-six figure or above salaries. Everybody else can suck it and if they want to earn that money better go off on their own.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to dhex says:

        FWIW, there was a family expectation that I would get some kind of graduate education but I think it is possible for someone to be shocked that highly-competitive but not top, top tier SLAC type schools are not always winners on the job market, and can get one in the dumping pile despite being really that different from someone from HYPS, Williams, or Amherst.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          They are not wrong to be shocked. They couldn’t be expected to know it.Report

          • I once talked to an ex-boss of mine about my son’s deciding which UC campus to attend, and he had a fixed opinion on which of them he’d hire from.Report

            • dhex in reply to Mike Schilling says:

              people have odd beliefs about higher education, to be sure. i’ve heard all sorts of interesting things, from what drives costs to how soc recruitment is handled to the value of testing to student debt.

              that last category is probably neck and neck with soc recruitment in terms of the amount of straight up ignorance and/or lying going on, especially within the ideological press.Report

  11. Pinky says:

    I haven’t followed all of the recent threads on the subject, but has anyone proposed an agreed-upon definition of “cancelling”? That seems like an even bigger deal than agreeing on a definition of “elite”.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to Pinky says:

      Well yeah and that is why the terms are useless since there isnt’ anything close to a agreed upon defintion. Just heard giant moron Dave Rubin say that we have cancelled Russia. WFT!? is that even supposed to mean. Trump was cancelled. Again WTF is that even supposed to mean.

      It’s just nonsense.

      Claiming to be cancelled is a solid way of taking clout and fueling a nice gofundme in conservative land.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Greg In Ak says:

        I think “cancellation” and “cancel culture” overlap, but aren’t really the same things.

        I also think the problem of “cancel culture” is that not that it means nothing, but that it usually means one of two things, and it’s hard to tell which one is at issue a lot of the time. One of the things is described in Oscar’s post.

        I took a crack at laying this out yesterday.Report

        • Greg In Ak in reply to pillsy says:

          It means a few things that are often very specific to the audience and the purpose of the communication. What often happens is to really figure out a situation you have to dig into the weeds about the specifics of a incident. But people want to derive systematic or broad issues from what are often unique episodes.Report

          • pillsy in reply to Greg In Ak says:

            My scorching take on this is that another source of endless discourse on this is that some people involved just really want to know what the rules are, and hate the idea that there are no rules and everything has to be determined with reference to a lot of specific details that generalize poorly.

            There are three reasons people want this, two of which are relatively benign but misguided, and will doom you to repeated disappointment.

            1. Anxious people who want to know what the lines are so they can be sure they stay on the right side of them. They want a safe harbor, where they know they can joke around, state opinions, whatever, without courting blowback by saying something offensive.
            2. More timid people who are uncomfortable with the need to set boundaries, and want to know they have some set of accepted rules that they can rely on to support their position, so people will be like, “Oh, this person’s boundaries are totes reasonable, and I will happily respect them.”
            3. Various types of jerks who want to know where the lines are so they can dance right up to them in order to antagonize and even bully people, but be confident that they are technically in the right, and will be shielded from any consequences of their actions.

            Sadly, in the cases of one and two, and happily in the case of three, there aren’t any such rules, and all you have is your judgement.Report

  12. pillsy says:

    So about three years back [1], Andrew wrote a piece about Kyle Kashuv, a Stoneman Douglas shooting survivor turned conservative activist. He got into Harvard, and Harvard rescinded his admission after some really gross jokes and comments he made in an online forum were revealed.

    We [2] had a pretty robust debate in the comments over the appropriateness of this. While I stand by my position, as far as it goes, that the level of bad decision making on Kashuv’s part is definitely in line with “bad decisions that will keep you out of Harvard”, I think Oscar had the better end of the argument, worrying that this is the kind of thing that could be weaponized against minority or lower SES students, and that would be shitty.

    Because–and I don’t think anybody caught the connection at the time though I think we all knew it–Kashuv wasn’t just a victim of cancellation, he was a victim of weaponized cancellation.

    A lot of the people going after him were sewer dwellers like Mike Cernovich. And while Kashuv was high SES, he was Jewish, and that’s not irrelevant in this case at all given that the alt-right was coming after him. They don’t care about Kashuv being racist or anti-semitic [2] but he sure has a lot to gain from the idea that any conservative activist who goes for mainstream or ‘elite’ acceptance is unable to get it. So churning things up when one is there, by digging up some old-ish bad shit they said?

    Whatever else it was, this was a really precise example of what you’re talking about with people deliberately stirring up turbulence to keep people afraid of cancel culture.

    [1] As I type this, I’m crumbling to dust like the dude from The Last Crusade.

    [2] It does nothing to mitigate his profligate use of the n-word, but the anti-semitic stuff should be sharply discounted on the grounds he’s Jewish.Report

    • I had to click the link to remember writing that piece. Funny how time and brain damage work. If you’d asked me ten minutes ago just off the title what it was about I could not have told you.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

      Recent Hidden Brain episode talks to one of the other kids who got caught up in that Harvard scandal.

      I was listening to it on my way to class yesterday.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to pillsy says:

      Maube related to the idea of how rules are gamed and weaponized:

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/04/04/mackenzie-fierceton-rhodes-scholarship-university-of-pennsylvania/amp

      Was this girl “canceled”?

      Or would a better term be that she was the victim of an arbitrary and selectively applied set of rules?

      And to address Pinky’s question, wouldn’t it be better to drop vague and meaningless terms in favor of more descriptive terms?Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Digging into the specifics of any individual piece of a**holery — of which there are plenty — finding out what really happened and why, and then opposing it in some meaningful way is hard work. Pearl-clutching over “cancel culture” is easy and low-risk, a cheap thrill.Report

        • pillsy in reply to CJColucci says:

          I don’t mind using the terminology, in part because we’re stuck with it and parsing it out is probably going to be helpful to being able to communicate with each other going forward.

          But the second part is absolutely true, and doesn’t go away whatever words you use. And I think a lot of usage of “cancellation” and “cancel culture” is intended to obscure important distinctions to push “engagement”, anxiety, and/or reactionary policy preferences.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Yeah I read that story and it is absolutely enraging.Report

        • pillsy in reply to pillsy says:

          Like there was one point while I was reading it where I literally screamed “WHAT THE FUCK”.

          I think it was when the school accused an abuse victim of lying about her abuse in an essay because she described the taste of a breathing tube as “metallic”, and the tube was made of plastic.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        The thing I find interesting about this story is how it first appeared in the Chronicle of Higher Education, it then got picked up by the tabloids known as the NY Post and Daily Mail in ways that were highly unflattering to Mackenzie Fierceton. She then got a more sympathetic read in Gawker and the New Yorker. It is a good micro-example of our currently partisan press.

        I have not read the New Yorker story yet but as far as I can tell from the Gawker review, her story is a combination of true statements, problematic technically correct statements, and possibly misleading statements.

        The truth is that she does have a strained relationship with her mother and child protective services was involved and she spent at least one year in foster care. What is unclear is whether she made up with her mother at any point.

        She did make statements that implied or outright stated she was in foster care more than once and this is a lie as far as I can tell.

        Her technically correct statements on being a first generation college student because apparently Penn allows you to consider yourself one if you have a strained relationship with the family member who attended college. Penn might even have a carve out for people whose relatives/parents attended non-elite colleges.

        The medical records are the most confusing because they apparently do not either support or refute the levels of alleged abuse or do both. She might not have been on a breathing tube but a nurse apparently did make statements on washing caked blood out of her hair.

        What does seem to be the big lie is that she grew up in poverty. As far as I can tell, she always attended private school even during her foster care year and it is possible that her mother paid for that tuition and her PENN tuition. Plus there is apparently lots of photographic evidence of her doing UMC activity for whatever that is worth.

        The story seems to have come out because PENN decided her winning a Rhodes Scholarship would be a good story for marketing and then someone saw it and sent in anonymous accusations with enough evidence that Ms. Fierceton was a fraud that it gave PENN and the Rhodes Scholarship committee pause.

        It is more of a story of jealousy, Penn and the RS committee feeling that it got egg on their face, and that they ended to do something.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          Her mom seems to be a bigwig in the St. Louis Medical community, so I really doubt she grew up in poverty.Report

          • pillsy in reply to LeeEsq says:

            She didn’t, but she was in foster care after being removed from her mother’s custody by CPS, and got a scholarship to Penn.

            A major aspect of the story is that she followed Penn’s guidance in terms of how to describe herself (as a first gen/low income student), and then they gigged her for it.Report

            • Saul Degraw in reply to pillsy says:

              The entire facts of the situation are very messy and it does not help that a lot of the accusations against her were anonymous.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                Also, call me biased, but I’m pretty underwhelmed by how much of the backlash was driven by the bilge harpies at the the NY Post and Daily Mail.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to pillsy says:

                That gives me pause to but much of the investigation happened before it was picked up by the Daily Mail and NY Post if I am reading the chronology correctly.Report

        • dhex in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          “Her technically correct statements on being a first generation college student because apparently Penn allows you to consider yourself one if you have a strained relationship with the family member who attended college.”

          yeah, that’s when i stopped feeling quite as sympathetic, but penn can go stuff it – the actual definition they were using is “first generation” in name only.

          ETA: i think the link worked? regardless, i am very displeased with penn for this bit of absolutely mind-bending garbage…which i’m sure will keep them and their billions up at night.

          ETA2: ok link didn’t work? is html not allowed here?Report

    • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

      I think Marchemaine touched on the concept about 2/3 of the way down. Most pertinent I think is where he said:

      I’m conflicted about exchanges of private information that are deemed morally culpable for only one of two parties; on the one hand we might want to grant limited immunity so that we can better expose our peers/friends/competitors without fear of consequence; on the other hand it seems we are creating an incentive to betray trust first lest your trust be the one betrayed. And further, who has the right to grant one racist immunity to catch a different racist? What’s the heritable paradigm we’re working towards?

      But I agree, definitely wasn’t the main thrust of the debate.Report

  13. Chip Daniels says:

    As a follow up to my comment about using precise, rather than vague terms is that very often in politics people use loaded terms as trump cards, where once you describe something as “fascist”, for example, your work is done.

    But these words only work that way when there is already an agreement in place, that a) the situation does fit the definition of fascism and b) fascism is bad.

    But in the absence of such an agreement, the words don’t help.

    For instance, why do we all think that fascism is bad? “Because the Holocaust”?

    Well, fascism in the 1930s was very popular, all across the world in plenty of places which never had a Holocaust, places like Italy and Spain. What, precisely, do we object to regarding Franco’s Spain? We need to interrogate our conventional wisdom and arrive at a more thoughtful critique rather than merely “fascism bad!”

    Which leads us to today’s issues. What, precisely, do we object to about Orban’s Hungary, or the Republican Party? What precisely is “cancelling” and why is it wrong?Report

    • pillsy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      A good definition of cancellation, IMO, is when someone suffers social or economic harm due to widespread disapproval of their speech and/or conduct.

      It covers a lot, but not everything. People say impeachment was “cancelling” Trump, or economic sanctions are “cancelling” Russia, and those people are, to be blunt, imbeciles.

      Why is it bad? Well, sometimes it’s not bad. Sometimes it’s good.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

        I would add a qualifier of “Where the cost to the ‘canceler’ is minimal relative to the cost to the ‘cancelee’.

        Impeachment entails a political cost, if nothing else.
        Sanction impose a economic cost on everyone who was benefiting from trade with Russia.Report

      • Pinky in reply to pillsy says:

        I’d say a good definition should probably have some reference to social media. I think it’s also an element of cancelling that the offense is unrelated to the punishment: a zookeeper isn’t cancelled for being a bad zookeeper, nor is a columnist cancelled for a column.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

          Dear Cincinnati Zoo,

          We are exceptionally disturbed to find that the zookeeper who happened to shoot Harambe had some instagram posts defending Joshua and TanyaLee from the eHarmony website saying that her clothing store shouldn’t be shut down because Joshua has traditional ideas about marriage.

          Do you really want someone with those opinions in charge of SHOOTING GORILLAS AND SCREWING UP THE ENTIRE TIMELINE?

          Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to pillsy says:

        “Widespread disapproval of speech or conduct” seems about right to me, and explains why the opinions are all over the map.

        Speech and conduct themselves cover an insanely broad territory ranging the most trivial of disagreements to profound and shocking atrocities.

        “Chip was cancelled for promoting Pre-Raphaelite painting” is a whole lot different than “Chip was cancelled for calling for the murder of half the OT commentariat”.

        Any sort of formulation that tries to cover both is going to be unhelpful.Report

        • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          I am a big fan of the idea that no argument is coherent without a limiting principle. With that in mind I would remove the ‘social’ component of pilly’s definition as too broad, and focus on the economic, as applied to an individual. Particularly at issue would be when the cancellers advocate a secondary boycott i.e. not only engaging in personal disassociation, but advocating that other persons and entities refuse economic transactions.

          Serious slippery slope hypothetical that I don’t think is so far fetched: would it be acceptable to advocate for banks to refuse all services to odious private individual of your choice? What about all grocery stores? What about to them and their family (including minor children)? Is this ethical? Is there a line and if so where?Report

          • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

            I think one reason I’m trying to keep it broad is descriptivism, but then we get back to “Russia being canceled for waging a war of aggression”, so maybe it’s fine to narrow it.

            A lot of the time cancelation is directed at, say, professional YouTubers [1, 2], who depend on parasocial relationships for their audience and thus their livings, so the line between social and economic consequences gets pretty blurry.

            And the secondary boycott thing can happen a lot, there, too.

            Serious slippery slope hypothetical that I don’t think is so far fetched: would it be acceptable to advocate for banks to refuse all services to odious private individual of your choice?

            My knee jerks pretty hard to no, even before you bring family members into it.

            [1] Indeed it seems to happen with considerably more regularity than it happens to legacy media types

            [2] Sometimes it’s for incredibly penny ante bullshit over slightly dubious Tweets, and sometimes it’s for creeping on minors in DMs, which is one reason why I stick with my “cancellation can be Good, Actually” take.Report

            • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

              Fair enough on YouTube, though your answer is why I think the limiting principle question is so important for framing the issue/debate. If the worst result of cancel culture was ‘well you might not get to keep your YouTube channel or your Twitter/Facebook/whatever social media account’ I’d say that seems like it could be kind of arbitrary and maybe wrongheaded in some situations but whatever. At the end of the day it would be a first world problem of the first order.

              Where I get concerned is the arguments that suggest that might not be enough, or worse, that there are a lot of people out there who don’t really think about it at all.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                I think it’s best to come up with a value neutral description and address the rightness or wrongness separately.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                That’s what I’m trying to get to with the secondary boycott concept. I think the broader definitions we’re throwing around cover too much conduct that too many people find reasonable enough. It seems to me that if we want to define it we need to whittle it down to something narrower than any negative social reaction to a person’s speech.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                What’s wrong with a definition which includes conduct people can find reasonable?
                That seems like the essence of “value neutral”.

                Like, “to socialize” is a definition of actions whose meaning is agreed to by everyone. As in, the MTA buses are socialized while Greyhound is not.

                We only disagree as to whether it is good or bad and under what circumstances.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                To your question, if a critical mass of people think an action is reasonable, there is no debate in the first place.

                However, if there is a debate, which I think there is, I would paraphrase your comment that started this thread. In the absence of an agreed upon definition the words don’t help.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                Right, so the precise definition of “cancel” might be something which various people can agree is correct, but merely disagree whether its good or bad.

                Right now, both left and right are doing it in reverse- agreeing that cancelling is bad, but then struggling to fit events into the definition depending on whether they were good or bad.

                E.G.: “Cancelling is bad. What happened to Harvey Weinstein is good. Therefore Harvey Weinsten was not cancelled.” Or “Cancelling is bad. What happened to Aziz Anzari was bad. Therefore Aziz Anzari was cancelled.”

                I’m trying to get to a place where we all agree that sometimes cancelling someone is good, sometimes its bad, and we just disagree on when its good or bad.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                Yeah and if you make your living off of parasocial relationships, well, there are some downsides.

                On the other hand, there are occasional cancellations where the viral outrage just swoops down on people more or less out of nowhere, often with astonishing intensity.

                If you haven’t heard the tale of West End Caleb, it’s completely bonkers. And Caleb, at least, sorta did something, even if it was just being a prolifically bad date; some of the people who wind up in TikTok-driven feeding frenzies did nothing at all.Report

              • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

                I had not heard of it but that seems… just ridiculous. Not exactly Black Mirror disturbing but definitely WTF.

                I think it goes to what people are really afraid of though, which is what you got at in your tiers of people wanting to understand the rules. We’re still wired for life in small groups and villages. When you’re really only dealing with ~100 or fewer people in day to day life it’s necessary to understand the rules but also a lot easier. The reality of huge numbers of implacable people who may follow different rules you don’t know about but who have some power to enforce them can be a really scary thing.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                Yeah my take is a small number of people in these situations behave really badly (doxxing, stalking, contacting employers, etc.) but those people wouldn’t even be aware of the target of their malice if a ton of people weren’t behaving a little badly (RTing, mocking, etc. for the fun of it).

                We’re probably never gonna be able to get rid of the small number of genuine malefactors, but I have a perhaps unrealistic hope that we can, as a society, wean ourselves off the low key venal badness.

                One of my first posts was about this way back in the day.Report

  14. Kazzy says:

    At the risk of bringing up abortion (I’M BRINGING UP ABORTION!), I would say that my take on cancelling and Heckler’s Vetos and the like is the same as my general stance on abortion: I think folks should have unrestricted access to the process but that thought and consideration should go in to any application of it. Just like those who support a woman’s right to choose identify as “pro-choice” and not “pro-abortion”, I do not identify as pro-cancellation or pro-HV but rather as anti-anti-cancellation and anti-anti-HV, because while I think both should probably be used rarely — or at least much more rarely than they seem to be these days — I think restricting them is far worse than their overuse.

    I will now self-cancel myself.Report

  15. pillsy says:

    Just as an aside, I got sick a couple weekends back and ended up watching YouTube drama videos the whole time and if you think the cancellations that afflict columnists and substackers and the like are wild, the YouTube thing is entirely something else.Report

  16. Jaybird says:

    New Cancellations just dropped:

    Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

      Welp you have finally convinced me that “cancellation” is a silly term. Granted i thought that before but now i am 100% sure. Just an empty sack with some crumbs at the bottom that might actually mean something.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Greg In Ak says:

        Is cancellation the new “Check your privilege”?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

          They don’t map 1:1, but they do have a lot of overlap.

          “Check your privilege” was a way for one privileged person to tell another privileged person to shut up.

          “Um. I don’t know that Will Smith should have slapped Chris Rock? I mean, I appreciate that there was an insult but I don’t think that violence was the solution?”
          “CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE!”

          See? You don’t have to engage in the argument at all. Just tell other people not to engage in it. Don’t make it about the topic of the slap, make it about the amount of privilege the person who finds the slap “problematic” is waving around by communicating that they want to weigh in on it.

          Cancellation is what you do when they refuse to check their privilege.

          (And we have reached the point where only Bad People yell “Check your Privilege” now. Soon we will reach the point where only Bad People will use the term “Canceled”.)Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

            Here’s where we were discussing privilege back in 2013.

            We were still in a place where good people used it more than bad people.Report

            • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

              Fun to read (also, oof, in my Derridean stage, or one of them at least), seeing all the old cast of characters. Interestingly enough, it was a later discussion of “privilege” here that was the proximate cause of one of the prominent folks in that thread (Hanley) leaving the blog for good. It was also, arguably, a failure to recognize his own privilege that led to the downfall of another commenter there (Blaise).

              In the intervening 9 years, I think the utility of the word has actually been amply demonstrated. Sure, it still gets used in unfortunate ways, but also, there are a whole lot more people who have come to recognize that they do, in fact, have certain privileges that come with their being of a certain race, or class, or gender, etc.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                I still don’t like how it’s used to mean:

                1. Something we want less of
                2. Something we want more of

                In the same argument, same paragraph, and sometimes the same breath.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                It might help to resolve what looks like a contradiction if you think of privilege both as the difference and what is different. So, to use an example I know you’ve used in the past, having parents who read to you is good, and the gap between the children of parents who read to them and of those who don’t is a form of privilege. We want to eliminate the gap, but by making parental reading more universal, not by taking away the reading from some kids. Noting the privilege then is noting not that your parents read to you, but that because some parents don’t read to their kids, you have an advantage in school and learning generally. Doing something about it would mean working to do things like encouraging reading, distributing children’s books, etc., while working to create conditions for better work-life balance, and fewer financial stressors, for poor/working class parents, so that they might have the time and physical/mental energy to read to their children.

                The content of the privilege, here, you want to be more widespread, but the fact that it is a privilege, i.e., that there’s a gap built largely through structural conditions (class, wealth, and racial disparities in those, e.g.) is something we want to do away with.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                Oh, that takes me back.

                I don’t think parents reading their children bedtime stories should constantly have in their minds the way that they are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children, but I think they should have that thought occasionally.

                Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

            My point is that…

            CYP was initially used by libs to call out what they saw as bad behavior.
            Then it became a short hand for identifying Bad Guys.
            Then it got co-opted by the typical targets as a way to evade any criticism, legitimate or otherwise. Like, before they were told to CYP they’d crow about being told to CYP.

            “Cancelling” as a term seems to be going through the same cycle.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

              Like, in this case, did anyone call for cancelling? Or was something reported (with follow up looking like maybe that was erroneous) and someone else expressed disappointment and that was kinda that? Calling that Tweet the next cancellation seems like an attempt to simply ignore his opinion without engaging it.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Oh hm…. Weird… that Tweet from the Med School didn’t appear at first. Did someone try to cancel the Jacob guy from med school?

                Apologies if I misunderstood the sequence. It showed a blank Tweet and clicking through just went to Twitter front page.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                The original tweet I posted had a screenshot of the doctor bragging about messing up a blood draw a handful of times before finding the vein of a guy who mocked the idea of pronouns.

                That tweet has since been deleted, I guess.

                I replaced it with the tweet from the school saying that they would handle it.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Why am I seeing a Tweet about an Oscars party? Was that a mistake?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                You’re reading that tweet and your interpretation is that it’s about an Oscar party?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                The only Tweets I saw said the following:
                Jacob Remes said: ”
                I’m so disappointed in Rosario Dawson–along with Janelle Monáe, Saweetie, Emily Ratajkowski, Daniel Kaluuya, Kim Kardashian, Timothée Chalamet, Michael B. Jordan, Mindy Kaling, Tiffany Haddish, Tyler Perry, Zoe Kravitz, and Questlov–for attending Jay Z’s scab party for scabs.”
                Which seemed to be responding to Fidel Martinez saying: “Rosario Dawson was among the celebs to cross a labor union picket line. Dawson portrayed UFW cofounder Dolores Huerta in CESAR CHAVEZ, a movie about the labor movement employing boycotts to get better wages. https://hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/jay-z-oscar-gold-party-picketed-chateau-marmont-1235121043/

                Based on having ONLY that and your comment about the new cancellation dropping, I inferred that you meant Jacob was calling for those celebs to be cancelled for crossing the picket line.

                Obviously, you meant to refer to something very different somehow things went glitchy or I dunno what happened.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I would describe it as a “celebs crossing a picket line” tweet.

                You saw it as an Oscar party tweet.

                This is probably due to different amounts of privilege that we have.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Stop trying to cancel me, Bro.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                It’s accountability.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                To get back on track…

                I referred to it as a “Tweet about an Oscars” party because I was on my phone and was very confused about what we were talking about so I quickly came up with a shorthand way to refer to the Tweets. Yes, I fully acknowledge they are about MUCH MORE than “just” an Oscar party.

                I cannot comment on whatever was happening with the med school situation because there is incomplete information.

                But I can see the Tweets that report on celebrities crossing a picket line to attend a party and someone expressing their disappointment in those celebrities.

                Is your argument that those celebrities are being cancelled?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                No, it’s fine.

                My main point with the “new cancellations just dropped” was not that these people were (or deserved or whatever) cancellation.

                It was to point out the machine working. “Twitter do your thing!”, they might have said.

                The original medical school screenshot was DEFINITELY in that vein. The response of the school was acknowledging that twitter had. (I don’t know if the license was yanked or anything or what. Everybody personally involved seems to have deleted their account or locked it or something.)

                The picket line tweet is an attempt to engage in accountability culture by asking why these celebrities who do such important work culturally aren’t showing solidarity where it counts? With a side of “twitter do your thing”.

                Are they being cancelled? Hrm. No. Is the cancellation attempt there? The “it’s not cancel culture, it’s accountability culture”? Sure seems to me to be.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                So, help me understand then…

                Where do you think we tipped from “People talking about stuff” to “In the neighborhood of cancel culture”.

                Was it the Hollywood Reporter article?
                Was it Fidel Martinez, who seemed to do little more than share the HR article with a one-sentence summary?
                Was it Jacob Remes, who offered a one sentence expression of his feeling on what was reported in the story?
                Was it Remes’s follow-up Tweets where he just sorta kept hammering the same point over and over?
                I’m not on Twitter so I can only see so many replies before it cuts me off… I didn’t see anyone invoke “Twitter do your thing.” I did see a couple people seem to agree with him and at least one person try to correct the story as it seems like maybe some basic facts were wrong.

                Did it snowball from there? Or is that how these things tend to start and then they snowball? I’m really trying to understand since I’m simply an outsider in Twitter culture.

                Remes’ initial Tweet feels like something someone would say here in response to a Linky article. Ho hum.

                But on Twitter, is that like handing someone a match and pointing them towards the kerosene? Sure, all you did was hand someone a match — people do that all the time — but you sure as heck know what chain-of-events you’re starting?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Where do you think we tipped from “People talking about stuff” to “In the neighborhood of cancel culture”.

                I think it was with the “I’m so disappointed”.

                “X happened” = Not cancel culture
                “HEY! LOOK OVER THERE! X HAPPENED!” = kinda maybe cancel culture? Maybe?
                “I was so disappointed when I looked over there and saw that X happened.” = Okay, we’re here.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

              I want to go back a little farther.

              Check Your Privilege used to be a very good way to address some underlying assumptions on the part of someone making a critique.

              Oh, you think that this was bad? Check your privilege! You’re making unconscious assumptions based on your amount of privilege and you shouldn’t be making them as you interpret these events around you!

              *THEN*, when that was seen as an excellent way to reframe a handful of situations, it “went viral” and was used to call out what was seen as bad behavior.

              There was also a phase there where HYPS kids were screaming it at other HYPS kids.

              *THEN* it became a short hand for identifying Bad people.

              But yeah.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I walk back that point given my confusion/tech difficulties with the linked TweetsReport

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Is that specific to Twitter? Like if someone said that here or at the bar would you react differently? Different ecosystems have their own languages so I wonder if a major factor here is Twitter having it’s own language that Twitter-users know and outsiders don’t.

                So I see “I’m so disappointed” and think “That’s tepid by web standards” but you see it and know “HE KNOWS WHAT HE’S DOING!”Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                To clarify, this isn’t a criticism… just recognition we may be speaking different languages, hence so much of the confusion between Twitter-users and non-users.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                If we want to talk about The Slap, we could point to the LAPD tweeting out that, yes, they had been made aware of an altercation between two individuals at an awards ceremony.

                Let’s say that both Will Smith and Chris Rock crossed the picket line and went to Jay-Z’s afterparty and it was *THERE* that the altercation happened.

                You never saw the slap. You just read about it on PerezHilton. Multiple contrary descriptions too. One guy described it as Will Smith positively *DECKING* Rock. Another guy described it as a light slap. Which was it?

                Anyway, in this scenario: how many phone calls do you think that the LAPD gets?

                So I see “I’m so disappointed” and think “That’s tepid by web standards” but you see it and know “HE KNOWS WHAT HE’S DOING!”

                I see it and I see an obvious attempt to shame celebrities for crossing a picket line. Heck, even one of Rossario Dawson’s roles was appealed to.

                I’m guessing that Rossario knows too (or, at least, suspects) because she has said this:

                (The replies focus on the distinction between actually crossing a *LINE* of *PICKETERS* and going to a place that has been added to the union’s official boycott list and whether only one of those is crossing a picket line or whether both of them count.)Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I think we’re agreeing.

                I don’t speak Twitter-ese. I’m not familiar with Twitter culture. That’s on me. I’m ignorant of it.

                So when I see a Tweet that starts with, “I’m so disappointed…” my thought is, “Meh… I mean… unless that’s someone’s parent giving an ‘I’m not mad, I’m disappointed’ talk then that is pretty tepid stuff as far as internet flame wars go.”

                But as you point out, that person knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

                So when you share that Tweet, those fluent in Twitter-ese go, “Shit, he’s really going after them,” and those of us who aren’t fluent or even familiar think, “What’s the big deal?”

                It doesn’t make one side right and one side wrong… but it does mean some amount of translating is required.

                Are you a basketball fan? If not, I could show you two plays… one wherein a guy bearhugs another, making no attempt to even get the ball and one wherein a guy jumps to block a shot, never gets close to the guy, but land with his foot near where the shooter lands.

                A non-basketball fan would probably find the former play more outrage. “HE BEAR HUGGED HIM! THAT’S NOT BASKETBALL! The other guy merely jumped and basketball has lots of jumping and maybe they got close but that happens.”

                If I showed those two plays to a fan or, better yet, a player, they’d have a very different response.
                Bear Hug: “Meh… probably an end-of-game take foul or maybe a clear path.”
                Jump Guy: “Oh, we’re fighting over that. He coulda blown that guys ankles or knees out. He knew what he was doing!”

                In fact, that latter play can now be elevated to a higher level foul (I forget exactly which).

                Knowing the context and culture matter. I don’t know the context and culture of Twitter convos. And that is *MY* failing. But it means I’m probably going to often have a poor take on Tweets, especially those that are using the Twitter verbiage.

                So, I’m happy to say, “I was wrong in my initial analysis of that Tweet. I thought he was being kind of lukewarm but obviously he knew what he was starting.” But I need help to get there.

                Correct me if I’m wrong but most of the world isn’t on Twitter. So if you want to use Twitter as evidence that something is happening, you should be willing and probably proactive in offering a degree of translation. It’ll go VERY far in helping avoid mistranslations.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                There’s a lot of twitterese that, on a surface level, sounds downright tepid.

                That’s a yikes.
                Oof.
                Maybe that could have been left in drafts?
                This is not a good look.

                There was an account called “Racism Watchdog” that was run by Lana del Raytheon that just responded to tweets with the word “woof” or “bark” or, in truly egregious cases, “BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK”.

                Well, someone tweeted something about not wanting a Black Buffy the Vampire Slayer reboot and it got a “WOOF”.

                The best response was “I urge you to retract your woof”.

                The jump guy comparison must be a great one because I’m still not seeing how jumping up and coming down close would be foul territory (but I’ll take your word for it that it is).

                And not knowing Twitter customs is not a failing. It’s a happy place.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                So Jump Guy puts his foot in the landing area of shooter. Shooter can’t see them and risks landing on JG’s foot, destroying his ankle and maybe more in the process.

                This link has it all in under a minute:

                https://youtu.be/ofW1964yEfw

                Blink-and-you-miss-it… then the knowledgable crowd reacts… then the commentators explain it.

                Looks fairly innocuous to the untrained eye.

                Do that at the park with anything even resembling intent and it gets ugly fast.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Oooooh.. yeah.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                It’s the kind of play where if I was watching basketball with my girlfriend, she’d be like “Why are they making a big deal?” and I’d be like “MY ANKLE HURTS DON’T TALK TO ME!!!”

                When I “watch” Twitter, I’m the, “Why are they making a big deal?” guy. “OOF? I think that’s the sound I make when I sit down too fast.”Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Now I want to start a Twitter:
                @SoundsIMakeWhenISitDownTooFast

                “OOF!”
                “Woh buddy!”
                “Hold on… let me catch my breath.”
                “[bones cracking]”Report

          • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

            One of the ironies of checking one’s privilege is it provides a very strong incentive and excuse for more privileged persons to keep their heads down, avoid drawing fire either angry Rightwards, and sitting out of the absolutely wild internal food fights that periodically roil SJ-oriented activist communities.

            Whatever you think of “stay in your lane” as a normative principle, it’s very good advice if you don’t want to be engulfed in controversy. And, perhaps not entirely coincidentally, the more privileged you are, the narrower your lane.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

              In Michael Moore’s movie “Roger and Me”, he’s got a handful of interviews with people on the golf course about how the auto workers ought to deal with the auto factory jobs going away.

              And you’d see some rich old lady from Bloomfield Hills talking about how they just need to stop complaining before she teed off.

              Absolutely *DELICIOUSLY* edited.

              Oooh, it’s online. (I queued it up to the right spot.)

              It is *EXCEPTIONALLY* easy to want to grab those old ladies and shake them and yell “CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE”.

              The problem is that it got used against people who were merely coming at a different thing from a different angle.

              People who agree with me? Don’t need to check their privilege.
              People who disagree with me? This is obviously a case of them being steeped in privilege.

              And that gives the game away.Report

        • Greg In Ak in reply to Kazzy says:

          An empty phrase people throw out because it’s the hot quip of the year. Yup. By the time everybody is using it, the phrase has lost any meaning.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

      Seems appropriate that medical professional gets repercussions for suggesting she may have hurt someone who didn’t dig her pronoun pin. Why discipline for unethical behavior sounds like something good and appropriate.

      That is the entire discussion around the OG tweet. Complete and done. Nothing else to say.

      What? You got a trendy word to slap onto any situation. Have fun i’ll be up in the balcony with Statler and Waldorf doing the needed work.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

        Why discipline for unethical behavior sounds like something good and appropriate.

        Discipline that followed:
        Her tweeting that she did something unethical (presumably for clout)
        This tweet being noticed by the wrong people
        This tweet bring brought to the attention of The Authorities
        The Authorities acknowledging the action and promising to take measures to address this

        (I mean, let’s face it, let’s say that the guy saw this. That is one heck of a lawsuit. This is where the school’s lawyer sitting at the table takes off his glasses and rubs his face.)

        The weird thing about it is the speed with which it happened following her admission (BRAGGING!) on twitter.

        “You got a trendy word to slap onto any situation.”

        I got it because it was given me.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:


          Daisy
          @papitha1735
          ·
          17h
          Replying to
          @wakeforestmed

          @mopseytoes
          and
          @kdel_2023
          What measures? People demand an update on what steps have been taken.
          Inabiged
          @Inabiged1
          ·
          15h
          “The people”? I don’t agree with what was done and agree there needs to be education. But let’s not get carried away.”

          I mean, this seems to fly in the face of what you’re saying. The first person definitely seems to be trying to get super cancel-y but then they’re immediately pushed back upon.

          To me, this seems like simply acknowledging that Twitter is a double-edge sword. “Oh, you want to broadcast your bad professional behavior to the world? Guess who the world includes? Your boss.”

          I really struggle to put either of these situations into the “cancel culture” bucket unless the cancel culture bucket is so vast that it is basically useless.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

            What does cancellation mean?

            I think that, at a bare minimum, being chased off of social media and having to delete one’s account would count. Being chastised at work would count, I think.

            If it doesn’t mean those things, what does it mean?Report

            • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

              I think they qualify as cancellation, but I remain unconvinced that any instance of cancellation is “cancel culture”.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                Any given instance isn’t (necessarily).

                But the whole “HEY LOOK AT THIS! CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS? GET A LOAD OF THIS!” is adjacent and when it’s said to employers or advertisers, we’re in overlap.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

                There’s also the issue of the nature of celebrity.

                If you wanted to get Joe Schmoe cancelled, you could go to his boss. “Joe Schmoe said the ‘U’ word.”

                Joe’s boss fires Joe.

                If a celebrity says the ‘U’ word, you can’t get them fired. They don’t really have a boss. How are you going to get Rossario Dawson fired?

                You can just sort of prevent her from getting work, maybe. Make Kevin Smith hire someone else.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                I think pillsy is right and this gets to my disagreement with Chip above on definitions. It seems to be that for ‘cancel culture’ to mean something it needs to be a negative thing, not a neutral thing. But to be a negative thing it has to be distinguishable from mundane decisions not to associate. Like I don’t think your neighbors deciding they don’t want to come to your cookout after you changed your FB background to a MAGA hat can really be called cancel culture. On the other hand trying to get the HOA to put you under a microscope in hopes of running you out might be.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                Sure we could do this.

                Or alternatively, we could sort things into Good Cancellations like Bill Cosby, and Bad Cancellations like some poor schmuck getting roasted for a trivial thing.

                ETA but what I notice here is that both Good and Bad cancellations are just all mixed together, just because they can be given the same term.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I don’t feel like the Bill Cosby situation is on point. High profile celebrity criminal prosecutions have too many complicating factors, and IMO are their own beast.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                But this is my point, where the definition is really just “stuff I think is unfair”.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I don’t think that’s useful at all. The whole phenomena is about social enforcement by private actors, not government enforcement. We may just have to agree to disagree.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to InMD says:

                I think this is a good take. But the last bit about a HOA being jerks( cause HOA’s are hell) gets to the point that cancel culture is just a new hot button word for old things. It’s a new label for the same old same old. Most us of the term CC is just people trying to take an ordinary thing and imbue it with grand political/cultural significance when its just a dope being a dope in the same old way.Report

              • InMD in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                I would say this is where the social media aspect comes in. We live in a weird moment where we both know people less but maybe also have more known about us, at least to the extent we’re participating in social media. Like the person calling the HOA may not even be a neighbor or even live in the same zip code.Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                If the label “cancel culture” means anything, it would have to indicate something new, right? The discussions about cancel culture imply that it’s a new phenomenon. And if it’s something pervasive enough to be called a culture, it’d either have to be widespread or have widespread implications.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                I think that this is part and parcel with the evolution of it.

                You know how Kazzy asked above:
                Is cancellation the new “Check your privilege”?

                This was exceptionally insightful of him.

                When “Check your Privilege!” came out, it was something that only went one way. (Sort of like the whole “Punching Up/Down” thing. If I punch you, I’m punching up. If you punch me, you’re punching down.)

                As time went on, however, some people pointed out that it was the guy with the degree from HYPS yelling “check your privilege!” at the guy who went to Community College.

                (There was a funny incident where Charlotte Clymer and Brie Joy Gray got into a privilege measuring contest. Everybody lost. It was dumb.)

                So, too, with “cancel culture”. Once upon a time, it was a weapon that got used only one way.

                The people who got it used against them described its use as negative. It was a negative thing.

                As a way to maintain its usability for a while, the go to defense was to alternate between “this doesn’t exist! Define it! Define it! If you can’t define it, it doesn’t exist!” and “okay, it exists, but it’s good actually” (the “accountability culture” gambit).

                After a few years of watching it in practice, though, it’s demonstrated to be a neutral thing. Hey, anybody can pick this up and use it.

                Huh. Accountability culture.

                Hey guys. Look at this tweet. Look at it. Her employer is here, by the way.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                FWIW, I only know about the med student cuz of this.

                Does this prove Oskar’s theory?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Yeah, I’d say it does.

                This goes hand in hand with the whole issue of how, in fifteen minutes, everybody will be famous.

                Everybody is also a journalist now.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

              This inspired me to think of a new angle…

              I would say that an important aspect of cancellation would be what I’ll call spillover.

              Joe Blow did bad thing in Context X and finds themself being held accountable in unrelated Context Y. It helps us recognize when public and private lines become blurred incorrectly or unfairly.

              So, I would say that bragging about a bad thing you did on Twitter and people on Twitter getting mad at you and you decided to leave Twitter wouldn’t really qualify as cancelling. Like, that’s how Twitter works… you share your ideas and people respond. If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

              Now, if they deleted it not because they couldn’t take the heat but because they were fearful the Tweet would be shared elsewhere — that it would spill over — well, that is a different scenario.

              Hard to know for sure since I’m not inside the person’s head or know the motives behind their account deletion.

              In any case, I wouldn’t consider this particular thing cancelling because it all seems to emanate from someone committing a professional act that is, at best, unethical and, at worst, criminal AND THEN BRAGGING ABOUT IT PUBLICLY.

              However this person was found out… they were going to suffer professional circumstances. They just happened to be found out on Twitter because they made the choice to brag about it there.

              So, in this instance, Twitter “doing its thing” seems to be a very good thing… this person will be held accountable and hopefully prevented from putting anyone else in harm’s away through their bad act.

              If this is cancellation, then cancellation has the potential to be good. That means it is inherently value neutral. At which point crowing about it really loses much of its punch.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Yeah, I think for the vast majority of people who don’t need or want their social media accounts for professional purposes, having to leave or getting banned from Twitter is just not a big deal, and “cancel culture” should be understood to include those cases where the negative effects extend beyond social media.

                However, this is blurred because in most discourse around cancel culture, because discourse is generally driven by members of the media class who have to engage with social media for professional reasons, and depend on it more and more to make a living.Report

              • pillsy in reply to pillsy says:

                For real, if I get banned from Twitter, I have two options:

                1. Thank my stars that I have a chance to stay the fuck off Twitter
                2. Immediately go back as @SonOfDuckGod

                But if I’m a journalist or professional opinionator with a Substack to promote, want to have a chance to get noticed to get a legacy media job, and to forge professional connections, getting kicked off Twitter’s gonna really sting.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

                Getting kicked off? Or deleting your account because you pissed folks off and they came after you?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

                I was focusing on banning. If I just angered enough people to somehow make my Twitter presence untenable, I doubt I’d go back.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

                Yep. But this is almost the opposite… an actor who did real bad acts in the real world who was merely found out via Twitter.

                Being an actual harm-causing person got her chased off Twitter… not being a bad Tweeter getting her chased out of the real world.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

                I think getting chased off Twitter is not a consequence we, as a society, should be particularly concerned about, and if that’s the limit of the harm, who cares.

                This doesn’t really change if the chasing is due to bad off-Twitter behavior. I still think it falls under the rubric of “cancellation”, but the sort of cancellation there is little reason to worry about.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

                So are we in a place where cancellation can be good or bad?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Yup. You need to actually evaluate what is going on.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

                So if something is neutral itself and the devil is in the details of how/when/where it is employed, then what are we even doing here?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Understand that neutral thing better, and try to figure out ways to avoid using it in bad ways.

                As a secondary goal, it might be nice to have a better handle on how to more effectively apply it in good ways.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                If it’s punching up, it’s good.

                If it’s punching down, it’s bad.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                please don’t poke me until I start ranting about how incredibly stupid and cursed the “punch up/punch down” thing isReport

        • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

          Ok Groomer.Report

          • Greg In Ak in reply to Greg In Ak says:

            Come on this is the big new phrase on the right. Trying to get in on the ground floor of using it. This baby has got legs.

            The “incident” in question is a NothingBurger with no topping, no tomato, no onions and nothing on the side. It’s plain NothingBurger with a dixie cup of water on the side.

            It’s literally person brags about doing something unethical then get in trouble. What next : man walking on sidewalk slips a little on ice but catches himself!!!!Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              That’s Russian Propaganda.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              I couldn’t follow the thread well enough to figure out what this was in reference to. I’m pretty sure it isn’t a common term, though.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                Some particularly unlovely creatures on Twitter are trying to make fetch happen.Report

              • Pinky in reply to pillsy says:

                “Fetch”? How many creatures? Most importantly, is it directed toward people who aren’t involved with some aspect of sexualizing behaviour toward children?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                “Fetch”?

                As in, “Stop trying to make ‘fetch’ happen,” from Mean Girls.

                How many creatures?

                I didn’t count.

                Most importantly, is it directed toward people who aren’t involved with some aspect of sexualizing behaviour toward children?

                Yes.

                They’re following the lead of less hip but still no more lovely creatures like Christopher Rufo and Ron DeSantis’ press secretary whose name I’m too lazy to google.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Pinky says:

                Groomer has become the defacto insult for conservatives on twitter defending the dont’ say gay bill in FLA. I’ve seen now it many places that if you dont’ agree with the current “anti gay” bills you a groomer . Will it break out of the pen its in now. Don’t know, but it’s out there and picking up.

                Douthat went there with Groomer so it’s getting some big press.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Douthat went there with Groomer so it’s getting some big press.

                Holy crap, I missed that.

                And I’m kinda surprised because Douthat is generally pretty adept at keeping the quiet parts quiet.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Well, yeah, as I said, people who are supporting a sexualized environment toward children, not liberals or those on the other side in general.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Which part of “Don’s husband Frank helped him do the dishes” sounds sexual to you?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                Saying that Heather has two mommies isn’t “supporting a sexualized environment towards children”, much less “grooming”, which is a word that actually meant something until five minutes ago, but that’s what the bill prohibits.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                Crap… yesterday I read “Adventures with My Daddies” to my kids.

                I should probably get some desexualizing spray to get things back to normal in here.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Pinky says:

                I’m guilty of letting my little boy spend time in an intensely sexualized environment. By which i mean he was baby sat by a couple of good friends who also are lesbians.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                CPS is on their way.Report

              • JS in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Do you know why they use groomer? Why, in fact, they’re so quick to jump on teachers, libraries, and godless urban liberal hellholes?

                There is a certain deep and abiding misunderstanding of children and childhood development that is often popular among adults, and at the moment it seems most popular among conservative adults.

                That is children are — at one extreme — literal offshoots of the parents (I once heard a father tell his son “I own you” and he really meant it) and at the more mild end (but still dead wrong on how children work) as a sort of programmable human being.

                That child-rearing is, in fact, programming your child to be exactly what you wish. That children are not independent beings (not as children, sometimes not ever to some parents) and only hold the desires, beliefs, and traits their parents chose and installed into them.

                So when these parents find their child is, for instance, gay, their first thought is “Where did you learn this”. Because they had not installed the gay module, so clearly someone else HAD.

                Same with trans kid. Same with liberal political beliefs, music tastes, clothing tastes — these things weren’t decisions by an independent human being, these things were pressed into the malleable clay by some nefarious force — library books, teachers, Hollywood elites, whatever.

                “I didn’t raise no [gay slur of their choice here]” is a common utterance, and it’s not just a disownment — it’s a rejection of the notion that your offspring are separate people from yourself, capable of making different decisions, leading different lives, or otherwise not conforming to whatever specific mold you wanted to place them, in.

                Douthat retreats to grooming because, to many conservatives, that must be how homosexuality (and being trans) work. Two straight parents made a kid, so it’s not genetics, and they raised their kid straight — so it’s not bad parenting.

                So how do gay people exist? Obviously perverted gays groom them to be gay (and of course they must get them young, since some kids are pretty clear on their orientation quite young) so they must be pedophiles in addition to perverts. To them, if that didn’t happen — gay people wouldn’t exist!

                The existence of gays, to them, is proof that gays groom kids.

                The same with trans kids.

                The same, to a lesser extent, with things like political ideology or who you vote for — you weren’t “raised that way”, which means some nefarious evil liberal got to you as a child and counteracted your programming.

                A lot of weird, but deeply held and seemingly quite sincere beliefs, make a lot more internal sense if you just decide children are offshoots of their parents — who, if not interfered with, will grow up to be clones of their parents — down to their sexual orientation, politics, favorite sports….

                The “sports dad/cheerleader mom” phenomenon (you know, the parent living out their youthful ambitions through their kids — whether it’s football, cheer, violin, acting, etc) is a more focused example of this.Report

              • pillsy in reply to JS says:

                Do you have a link to the Douthat piece where he refers to grooming?Report

    • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

      Interesting thing about the Wake Forest situation is that the people calling for her cancellation are almost certainly largely composed of people who decry cancel culture. If she actually did that, should she be “canceled” (in this case, kicked out of medical school)? Probably not, though she might need a refresher on basic ethics. But that doesn’t change the fact that people are calling for her to be expelled left and right, and those people are primarily from the right side of the Twitter world.Report

      • InMD in reply to Chris says:

        If we could ever hammer out a definition I’d say conservative support is one of the best arguments against cancel culture.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

        And many of the people defending her (or anti-anti-her, anyway) are people who explain that cancel culture is best called “accountability culture”.

        Now the most charitable reading of her asinine tweet was that she made it up.

        *IF*, however, she was not making it up, it seems like a situation ripe for a lawsuit. “I was assaulted by someone who was in a position of trust over me. Her tweet demonstrates active malice. I am entitled to punitive damages.”

        If you are the lawyer for the school… you letting that go to trial? Are you going to have a heart-to-heart with opposing counsel and asking “what kind of settlement are we looking for?”

        If you were a hospital administrator… would *YOU* hire someone who caused the outcomes to the previous questions to be on your staff if you had other resumes in the pile on your desk?

        Assuming that she wasn’t lying for clout, of course. Silly social media addicts. Making things up for clout.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Chris says:

        What even is the Wake Forest situation? The relevant tweets have been deleted.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

          Found a screenshot of the tweets in the quote tweets:

          Report

          • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

            Yeah gotta say I’m not really feeling, “Cancel culture is bad because you can get in trouble by bragging publicly about doing shit that should get you in trouble.”Report

            • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

              It’s not bad. Not any more.

              It’s now a neutral tool available for any hand willing to risk picking it up.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                OK let’s pull back for a sec:

                Why do you think this case is even interesting?

                Because to me it seems very cut and dried: @kdel_2023 publicly bragged about doing something quite bad on Twitter, and people notified her school of her doing it, and now she is likely to suffer significant consequences for that bad behavior.

                I don’t think any reasonable set of cultural norms would protect her from those consequences, and I don’t think protecting her from those consequences would be desirable.

                So what about this instance of cancellation sheds useful light on any question we’ve been discussing?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                It could have been an accident of timeline. I saw the original tweet that alerted me to this incident a tweet or two away from the one that expressed disappointment in crossing the picket line.

                Two social media instances within a second of each other?

                One of a relative nobody bragging and a relative somebody doing something under cover of darkness.

                It’s serendipity! I thought.

                Two events. Right next to each other. Perfect examples of minor things blowing up online resulting in consequences.Report

          • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

            Oh God. From healthcare in-house attorney perspective you’re definitely talking to outside counsel in anticipation of a lawsuit and starting the internal investigation with HR, Compliance, and everyone else.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

            This is a perfect example, where “cancel” either means “stuff I like” or “stuff I don’t like” so people first decide if they like the outcome then strain to explain why it either is or isn’t cancellation.
            As if that alone does the work, without needing any persuasive logic to support the outcome.

            Why not then, just ignore the term of cancellation and explain why she should or shouldn’t be punished?
            Because that can’t be used as a cudgel in the culture war, I think.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Chip, I’d say that the addition of Social Media is what makes this a cancelation.

              Back in the heady Reagan days, if one of the vampires down in the lab stabbed a jerk, she’d tell people about it at the lunch table, everybody would nod, and no biggie.

              K Del decided to tell 10,000 of her closest friends and one of them ratted on her.

              That’s what transmogrifies this into “cancelation”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Imagine then, if we all agreed this was cancellation.
                Imagine then half the people saying “Yay, cancel that woman!” And half saying “Support her defense of her dignity”

                Did calling it “cancel” help us decide how we should view it, or improve our understanding of the situation?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, I’m seeing this particular instance as an evolution of the form.

                And, yes, the evolution of the defenses.

                We’ve gone from:
                Cancel Culture doesn’t exist! Define it!
                to
                Cancel Culture? More like Accountability Culture!
                to
                Is calling this ‘cancelation’ good?

                Something that used to point primarily in one direction is proving to be a neutral tool. In becoming neutral, I expect it to start attracting arguments about how it ought not be used at all. Not from the people who used to complain about it, mind.

                From the people who formerly adopted the affectation that it did not exist.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                That’s kinda what I said.

                That people flip their position on canceling depending on whether they like or dislike the outcome.
                “If this is canceling, then it must be bad. If it isn’t canceling then it must be ok.”

                As opposed to doing the work of explaining why such an outcome should or shouldn’t happen the word itself is expected to win the day.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Oh, I’m not using the word as “it’s bad” or “it’s good”. I see it as a neutral tool.

                I’ve merely gone from “seriously, this exists” to “I’m glad we agree it exists”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Or vice versa, “It exists and its BAAAD” to “Hey, we kinda like it!”

                But so what? This has also existed since forever.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “This weapon is being used against us!” to “Hey! Anybody could use this weapon!” is less interesting than “That doesn’t exist!” to “Okay, it exists but”.

                I mean, history is littered with people reverse-engineering weaponry.

                ID4 figured out a virus for the OS of the aliens! There are probably other examples.

                The whole gaslighting thing is a lot more interesting than that.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                You’re demonstrating my point again.

                You’re less interested in the outcome or why its good or bad, than in whether it can be used as a cudgel in your culture warring.

                Which is…not interesting.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                You’re less interested in the outcome or why its good or bad, than in whether it can be used as a cudgel in your culture warring

                *My* culture warring, you say?

                Well, let me just tell you this, Chip:

                The left had start getting interested in the culture war too. It can no longer afford to pretend that it doesn’t have to fight.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Heh.
                We’ve gone from “We’re not culture warring, we’re merely pushing back on excessive DEI” to “Damn right I ordered a Code Red Culture War!”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, I have never denied that there is a culture war.

                I’m one of the people who thought that Trump was going to win in 2016 because of it!

                I also suspect that stuff like “cancel culture doesn’t exist” and “they aren’t teaching CRT in schools, it’s an obscure theory taught in law school” is stuff that will result in more own goals than goals against the opponent.

                The addition of “gaslight” to common vocabulary was really helpful here. It does a great job of encapsulating a couple of tough concepts to explain down to a single word.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                “ We’ve gone from:
                Cancel Culture doesn’t exist! Define it!
                to
                Cancel Culture? More like Accountability Culture!
                to
                Is calling this ‘cancelation’ good?”

                I’d argue at each stage, a different definition of cancelling was being discussed.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                We’ve gone from:
                Cancel Culture doesn’t exist! Define it!
                to
                Cancel Culture? More like Accountability Culture!
                to
                Is calling this ‘cancelation’ good?

                My first question is, who is this “we”? I haven’t gone through those steps, nor has anyone else as far as I’ve noticed. The cloud may have people arguing all three positions, but that doesn’t mean any one person has. Some people are wearing green right now, and some people hate the color green. There’s not contradiction or development reflected in those facts.

                Even if a person’s perspective changes, that doesn’t refute their old argument or their new one, and it doesn’t prove malice. If society is becoming more comfortable with cancellation, that’s a problem, and it may be that you’re documenting an actual descent down a slippery slope, but you’d need data points.

                As for this particular case, I go back to my zookeeper example and say that if a person is fired for doing his job badly, it shouldn’t be called a cancellation.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                So, why are we aware of this?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Well ultimately because someone decided to brag about being a piece of shit on the Internet.

                And gotta say even if she was lying for clout, this was still a low-key evil thing to do, and even if it weren’t, the amount of hassle she is about to experience is a very typical stupid prize that one wins for playing a stupid game.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to pillsy says:

                And regardless of whether this was revealed by social media in 2022, or a minor print story on page A15 in 1965, or spread word of mouth in a New York pub in 1922, it would have the same meaning, and we would have the same reactions.

                About all we can really say is that canceling is just “old timey gossip supercharged by technology”Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                But why are we, those of us interacting here, aware of this? Is someone here connected to Wake Forest? Is this being reported by the media? Is it being put on blast by Twitter itself (either employees or algorithms)?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Oh yeah I guess JB thought it was interesting.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Jay is trying to fan the flames of the culture war he thinks is happening by pushing a banal story that the word cancel can be attached to. It’s a minor local story at most not the Guadalcanal of the “culture war”.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Greg, the fact that you think that it’s not happening does not make my pointing it out to you an instance of “fanning the flames”.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

                Jaybird

                Part of the definition we’ve all seemed to be working from is that Cancelation is a relatively minor offense getting blasted out of proportion. So was the Wake Forest thing being blasted out of proportion? It’s perfectly acceptable for an employer to take action against an employee for misconduct on the job, so that’s not cancelation.

                If the med student was getting dragged by the media, or if they were experiencing 2nd & 3rd order effects from a pile-on, then sure.

                But if all there is, is a employee publicly admitting to workplace misconduct, and the workplace finding out about that public statement – that’s not canceling.Report

              • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Thank you. And this is why we need a definition, not the deconstructed, ‘isn’t cancel culture just any negative consequence for anything’ path this has gone down.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                So was the Wake Forest thing being blasted out of proportion?

                I don’t know? “What’s proportionate?” seems to be something that nobody seems to agree on. It’s been called “assault”. It’s been called, let me copy and paste this, “a literal pinprick”.

                Is this de minimis? Is this a criminal matter?

                But if all there is, is a employee publicly admitting to workplace misconduct, and the workplace finding out about that public statement – that’s not canceling.

                I think that it’s the pile-on that makes it cancelation.

                Something that might have merely been a long office session getting chewed out has become, at the very least, something that has resulted in multiple social media accounts being deleted.

                The administrative (and legal) consequences are not cancelation.

                Deleting twitter accounts? That’s one of the definitions.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                One person acts like a jerk, the second person acts like a bigger jerk.

                And thousands of bystanders act like yet bigger jerks by using the incident to score points against their hated team.

                Is there a term for this?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

                Which gets back to my OP, why is there a pile-on? Did the story get put on blast? By who? Or did it naturally go viral without the aid of media or algorithms?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                At this point, I’m not sure that I can do any forensic studying of it… by the time it got to me, the original was long deleted and the school had already said that it would take care of it.

                I’m guessing that there are a lot of volunteer Stasi out there more than happy to kick stuff up to their kommissar/influencer.Report

      • dhex in reply to Chris says:

        presuming the tweet is real – and let’s face it, it’d be easy to fake and seems kinda fishy to begin with – she’s admitted to intentionally injuring a patient. in doctor terms that’s called a “no no”.

        it’s well beyond the usual wrongthink slapfights (i refuse to use that stupid term), which are generally over words rather than needles, so it’s not the best comparison.

        again, if true, which is a very big if at the moment.Report

        • Chris in reply to dhex says:

          Is it the sort of thing you’d expel someone for? If so, I’m happy to admit I underestimated its significance. I assumed it was the sort of thing you’d get put on probation or have to do extra training or something.

          Would a doctor who admitted doing this exact thing lose their license?

          To be clear, I think what she says she did is bad, and people should not do it, and if someone does do it, there should be consequences.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

            Imagine someone unsympathetic doing it to someone sympathetic.

            Oooh! A white doctor! Doing it to a POC!

            “That Irish guy actually questioned what D.O. meant. I missed his vein so he had to get stuck twice.”Report

            • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

              I don’t find her particularly sympathetic. My question is about double sticking specifically. I don’t think the specifics of why she did it matter; only that she didn’t need to do it, but did it because she didn’t like the patient or something they said or did. How bad of an offense is that? Expellable, as a first offense (she may have others, I don’t know)? Or something lesser?

              And just so we’re clear, I whether she did this for the reasons she stated, or did not do it, and just said she did for the clicks and clout, I think she sounds like an insufferable person. But as in the case of most cancel mobs, I think people make mistakes, and assuming, again, that this was her first offense, then because she’s a person, even if I dislike everything I know about her, I hope she doesn’t get cancelled, unless this is the sort of thing that medical folks feel absolutely requires cancelation.

              I’m pretty sure I’m on the record here from 6 or 7 years ago, but I definitely am on Twitter, saying that going after people’s jobs/careers is really bad, and we should be very careful about doing it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                I think that the argument goes like this:

                If a racist doctor does this to a POC and admits it (even brags about it), then this is not a single isolated incident. It’s merely one that he thinks is the funniest recent one. He’s done it before, he’ll do it again.

                I think that’s the argument.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                Sure, we can compare a person doing this to a patient because of their race to this case of doing it because the patient asked a question that annoyed them, but I don’t know why we would.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                My example was: “That Irish guy actually questioned what D.O. meant. I missed his vein so he had to get stuck twice.”

                If a racist doctor does this to a POC and admits it (even brags about it), then this is not a single isolated incident. It’s merely one that he thinks is the funniest recent one. He’s done it before, he’ll do it again.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Who is making that argument?

                We went from discussing what consequences would be appropriate for this woman (with no one I can see arguing she should suffer zero consequences) to you saying, “Well, what if it was this?!” and then making assumptions about how that argument would go and then drawing conclusions based on those assumptions and applying those conclusions to folks here.

                WTF?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                No, we were discussing “How bad of an offense is that? Expellable, as a first offense (she may have others, I don’t know)? Or something lesser?”

                And comparing jabbing someone who asked an obnoxious question to someone who asked an obnoxious question.Report

          • dhex in reply to Chris says:

            As someone who worked on the admin side and had to deal with pr headaches when doctors did dumb things in public, I’d follow the chief med officers lead on this… But I’d be hard pressed to keep her in rotation. You’d also be looking at a (in NYC) a visit from regulators to see if this was a thing that happened and also a thing in general.

            As a general rule even slightly injuring a patient on purpose over politics is not something you should probably talk about out loud, much less broadcast. And it isn’t something an institution can look away from once it becomes public (or shouldn’t at least, as this is where the vast majority of problems with doctors steamroll into years of problems and eventual scandals)

            Still feels a little fishy tho, like a sports bar honey trap.Report

            • InMD in reply to dhex says:

              If it did in fact happen there is no way their lawyers are recommending anything other than termination.Report

            • Chris in reply to dhex says:

              That makes sense.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                Keep in mind, again, assuming veracity, an incident like this would be reportable not just to licensing authorities but also your insurance carriers and potentially even to government healthcare programs like Medicare and Medicaid.

                The cartel that licenses the individual providers might be happy with a slap on the wrist but for the institution you end up with a real question of ‘can we afford the out of pocket expense of keeping someone in here who commits intentional torts.’ For big health systems like Atrium the answer is usually no.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD says:

                Also makes sense.

                I assume that a medical student would know something like this (as I clearly did not), which makes it mind-bogglingly stupid to admit it on Twitter.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                I don’t know if this adds to the veracity or if this is merely a “friend” trying to “help”.

                Text, if this one goes away too.
                It was a screenshot of Ewen Liu’s tweet where she said:

                Heard this story firsthand weeks ago and seems like ppl are misinterpreting (understandably from the phrasing). To clarify, the missed stick was COMPLETELY an accident and just seemed ‘karma-tic’. She is kind and professional and would never harm anyone intentionally.

                She has since not only deleted the tweet but her account as well.

                If nothing else, I could see this negating the potential defense of “this didn’t happen, she was just posting dumb stuff for clout, you shouldn’t take it seriously”.

                “This happened but it was just an accident” seems to become the floor because of this. Not, you know, for people who want to know what *REALLY* happened, but for the plaintiff’s lawyer having a conversation with the hospital’s lawyer.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                The “karma” one suggested that the failed stick was not intentional (hence the “karma”), so at least there’s that.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                Yes, it did suggest that.

                It also stated:
                “I heard this story firsthand!”
                “The missed stick happened!”

                If I were counsel for the hospital, I would *INFINITELY* prefer to have only the original student’s tweet than the original student’s tweet and the one from the helpful friend.

                Can the legal types back me up on this?

                Would counsel instead argue “here’s evidence that it wasn’t intentional, calm down”?Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                It’s all very possible. I am on the healthcare technology/privacy side so don’t have a chest of war stories about doctors gone rogue like litigators do but I’ve seen under the hood enough to know that stuff happens. That said, until we have more than tweets, I think healthy skepticism is warranted.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                Oh, yeah. At this point, all we have are two tweets, two deleted accounts, and a tweet from the school saying “we’ll handle this”.

                At that point I’d be more than happy enough to say “no problem”.

                But if a guy shows up with a lawyer and says “I’m the person that this was talking about and I can prove that I came in that day (my insurance records, say) and I actually got stuck three times”, then we’re in a situation.

                Until that guy shows up, this is just some stupid people not knowing that there are some professions that should never, ever tweet anything. If you *MUST* have social media, don’t mention your job. Like, “I work downtown” is too much information. Keep it to movie reviews, being happy it’s the weekend, and cat pictures.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                You’re happy enough to say “no problem,” but the Twitter mob is not.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                For some reason, the school’s administration finds the mob’s arguments compelling.

                I don’t know how we’re going to get various administrations to stop finding the mob’s arguments compelling.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                If they actually “found the mob’s argument compelling,” rather than being intimidated by the mob, why is that something to “stop”? If the point is that the mob’s argument is wrong, and shouldn’t be found compelling, that’s something one can certainly argue. But that takes work and isn’t fun.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                My assumption is usually that the size of the mob is what is compelling rather than the reasoning the mob presents.

                Perhaps this is a bad assumption on my part.

                Hey! You’re a lawyer! Do you have any opinions on what you would do if you were the hospital lawyer and someone walked into your office with those two tweets and said “my client has a complaint and he can prove he was there that day”?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                This is what happens when you don’t say what you mean.

                As for my legal advice, the first thing I would do is find stuff out. Then, and not before, I would form opinions.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Stuff:

                His records show that he was there on the same day that she was.
                The lab’s records show that he had blood drawn. His cholesterol is high.
                The records show that her initials are on the paperwork for his blood draw.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                No lawyer worth his, her, their, or its fee would give serious advice on the basis of such “stuff.” There are lawyers who would, but you’d be ill-advised to hire them.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                So if you were the hospital’s lawyer and someone came into your office with those tweets and that evidence, you would say, effectively, “HA! See you in court”?

                NOTE: I am not asking for legal advice. I imagine that the guy has not shown up (I’d guess isn’t anywhere *NEAR social media) and, as such, this will probably end with the Dean or somebody bringing her in and reading her the riot act and that being the end of it.)Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                No. Why would you think that? Reading comprehension or ignorance of the way lawsuits work? Has to be one or the other.
                What any competent lawyer would say is something along the lines of: “Hmm. We’ll look into this. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.” Then he or she or they or it would seriously look into it. Then, and only then, would the lawyer come up with some options and advise the client whether there was a real threat here or not
                At least that’s what any lawyer worth hiring would do.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                So what needs to be found other than the tweets and evidence that the guy was there that day, evidence that he had his blood drawn, and records showing that her initials were on the line for person who did the drawing?

                Would you need to talk to the people whose pictures are on the tweets that were sent? Would your first real question be “did you send these tweets?”

                I imagine it would, but I’m not a lawyer.

                I imagine that if it was and the first words out of the mouths of the people whose pictures are on the tweets were “look, you have to understand”, my first impulse would be to take off my glasses and rub my face.

                How off-base is that?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                “Imagine” what you want. Just leave the professional stuff to the pros. That’s what they get paid for — if they deserve to get paid.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                That’s what I’m asking you for!

                So what needs to be found other than the tweets and evidence that the guy was there that day, evidence that he had his blood drawn, and records showing that her initials were on the line for person who did the drawing?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’ll let the actual law dogs respond, but I would think the first thing a defense attorney would need in order to respond to a complaint is, y’know, a complaint.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, that’s why my starting question for CJ was, let me copy and paste this,

                Do you have any opinions on what you would do if you were the hospital lawyer and someone walked into your office with those two tweets and said “my client has a complaint and he can prove he was there that day”?

                Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                What needs to be found is whatever there is. So far, no responsible lawyer would advise any course of action based on so little information. The necessary investigation would likely take at least a few days and questioning at least half a dozen people, reviewing the medical student’s records and the patient’s file.
                Then again, no lawyer who isn’t a total hack would come at the hospital with so little to begin with.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Okay. Who are the half dozen people? I’m guessing the two tweeters at least. Who else?

                You mention the patient’s file. Are you looking for more information than “our records show he was here, got a blood draw, and her initials are on the blood draw paperwork”? If so, what?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                I get paid for that kind of work, and I don’t work for you. If you want me to lay out how I would investigate this case and all the possibilities I would have to run down and why they matter, I’ll need some tangible inducement.Report

              • Chris in reply to Chris says:

                By the way, I’ve never had a Twitter mob of any real size come after me, but I’m involved in local political stuff, and the bleeds into Twitter. About a month before the start of the pandemic (at least, a month before it was called a pandemic), after a couple years of local conservatives and cops trying to figure out who I was, and doing things like frequently tweeting about me and sharing memes about me (the typical meme implying that I’m crazy), someone finally did (through some admittedly impressive if obsessive online detective work, involving going through all of my tweets, finding people I’d interacted with a lot, searching for them, and eventually finding, several steps in, the public baby registry on Amazon with my and my partner’s name). I was then doxxed (name, address, name of my then 2-month old baby, name of my partner), my partner was doxxed, they tried to get me fired, and they tried to get her fired. Cops and local conservatives and conservative groups shared all this, threatened us, threatened the 2-year old, etc. They still contact our employers now and then, more than 2 years later.

                I suspect this is the closest anyone in this thread has come to cancellation.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                That sucks. Those are awful tactics that those bastards were using. It’s one thing to disagree with someone. Hell, even to think that they’re immoral.

                You shouldn’t try to ruin their lives over it, though.Report

              • dhex in reply to Chris says:

                that sounds horrible. i’m sorry you have had to go through that.

                my closest was death threats because of something that became a weeklong national news story involving the institution i worked for. bc i was quoted by name in major media outlets about the incident i became the target of ire for jerk*ffs within the ideological press. it got numbing after a while, but that whole week was a blur and my employer had bigger fish to fry.

                it sounds a little callous, but after a while the whole “we’re going to kill you and your family” thing gets very ho hum very quickly. ragey wingnut scripts don’t have a lot of variation, depth, or pizazz.

                (it was briefly a horseshoe event, but the proto-wokists broke off after clarifying details came out, and we were left with the right wing nuts only. the left wing wingnuts are also more moralistic and vague in their threats, something closer to “god will punish you!” but replace god with “the people”. my employer didn’t care either way.)Report

              • InMD in reply to dhex says:

                Both of these stories are terrible. Why on Earth is anyone even on this thing?Report

              • Chris in reply to dhex says:

                Oof. Now I’m curious, but more than that, why on earth did your employer just leave you hanging like that?Report

              • dhex in reply to Chris says:

                sorry for the confusion – i meant they didn’t care about the people calling them asking for me to be fired.

                honestly, there’s not a lot else they could do – i blocked these yutzes as they came in and shared the very few vm’s or emails with the state police that i felt were overly concerning, which weren’t many. “i’m gonna kill your daughters” don’t mean a lot after a while if you don’t have daughters, etc.

                it also reinforced how smart the decision was to never have a public + personal social media presence, only professional, and keeping family deets out of it.

                which, amusingly, is not something everyone who sends threats to randos they’ve never met actually consider. more than once – and in more than one state – i’ve shared someone’s actual FB account + screenshots with police where they
                made threats against an institution. didn’t love it but on the off chance they were more crazy than stupid, etc…

                not sure how they got my cell #, though. perhaps via someone within the institution? i’m sure there were other easy ways to dig it up at the time, as this was not overall the sharpest group of people i have ever interacted with.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Chris says:

        I assume that you’re trying to suggest that there’s some kind of inconsistency or hypocrisy here. I’m certainly not saying that there’s any shortage of hypocrites on the right, but this isn’t a great example of it. She insinuated that she assaulted a patient for making fun of (or possibly being oblivious to) the “my pronouns” fad. Her speech isn’t the issue here—it’s the fact that she deliberately inflicted more pain on a patient than was necessary, which a) is probably a violation of medical ethics, b) reflects very badly on the institution, and c) may discourage others from seeking medical care.

        It’s fun to speculate about how many of the people who are calling for her head would be defending her if she had done the same thing to a patient for making fun of religion, or how many of those defending her would be calling for her head. I’m sure that the answer to both questions is “many, if not most.” But as it is, this incident doesn’t make the point you seem to be trying to make.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Brandon Berg says:

          Well, there is a difference between:

          “This person engaged in an action that did the a, b, and c you outlined and their expulsion/termination is reasonable if not required as a result.”

          AND

          “CANCEL THIS PERSON! EVERYONE, MOBILIZE!”

          If folks think doing the latter is wrong — if they decry cancelling and cancel culture — but then are doing just that, it’s reasonable to call them hypocrites… even if they’re ultimately right.

          I’m not on Twitter so I’m not aware of what the discourse is around this situation.

          For whatever it’s worth, I do think she should face real consequences for her action for all the reasons you outlined.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

            There is a dynamic that I’ve seen (perhaps you’ve seen it too) that goes a little something like this:

            Person on Team Good does X. (And, yeah, X is bad.)
            Person not on Team Good says “What the hell? This person did X!”
            Person on Team Good would much rather talk about how Person not on Team Good doesn’t have standing to criticize X than talk about X.
            This becomes a discussion about Person not on Team Good.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

              This happens but also who cares?

              It’s a meta-discussion about a meta-discussion about a meta-discussion.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                Who cares?

                Well, people who care about X, I imagine.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                We aren’t talking about X. We’re talking about the way people talk about the way people talk about people who talk about X.

                In a conversation that far removed from anything of consequence, of course people will just be arguing their priors and/or trying to score points off the other team. What else can they do?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to pillsy says:

                What’s hilarious about this is that the actual incident- a nurse jabbed someone a second time, a literal pinprick, because he said something that pissed her off-
                Is the sort of trivial incident that would never even be worth a couple seconds conversation at a coffee shop.
                And even in our social media age, it would never so much as get a dozen retweets.

                Except…

                Except for its use as a proxy battle in the culture war, in this particular instance as a propaganda effort to paint trans people and their allies as intolerant savages.

                In this case, “X “, the thing that is noteworthy and must at all times remain the center of attention is, “Liberal Intolerance”.

                All other aspects of the story are irrelevant.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                A nurse jabbing a patient for kicks and then bragging about it is a minor event, but it’s also a fireable event. There are more tweets made about it because Twitter shouldn’t exist and there should be no tweets.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Except for its use as a proxy battle in the culture war, in this particular instance as a propaganda effort to paint trans people and their allies as intolerant savages.

                Definitely.

                And it’s easy to let it slide into the “cancel culture” discussion because the cancel culture discussion is so frequently a proxy for the same culture war issues.

                And an instance of “cancel culture” it’s a very dull one.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                Well, this particular subthread was kicked off by BB discussing the implied inconsistency/hypocrisy of some of the theoretical critics of KDel.

                As for “anything of consequence”, the whole medical care thing has been a big deal for a while. I imagine that it will continue to be.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

              You lost me among all the hypotheticals. Who do you think is who in all this?

              I don’t care what “team” this woman is on. I think she did something wrong and should suffer the appropriate consequences. And if folks from “other teams” agree with me, so be it.

              But if someone has been denouncing cancel culture left and right and is now saying, “Yea, cancel her!” I’m fairly confident their objection is not to cancel culture or whatever itself but to having folks on their team suffer consequences for actions.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                But if someone has been denouncing cancel culture left and right and is now saying, “Yea, cancel her!” I’m fairly confident their objection is not to cancel culture or whatever itself but to having folks on their team suffer consequences for actions.

                And here we are. Talking about them and their objections.

                You Must Be This Good To Oppose X.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                The conversation was if those folks were being hypocritical. So… isn’t it reasonable to talk… about… whether those people… were being hypocritical…?

                I’ve already made clear my position on what I think should happen to this woman. And if others feel similarly, I agree with them. And if those who feel similarly are being hypocritical, I can agree with them while also acknowledging they’re being hypocritical.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                “You thought that so-and-so shouldn’t have gotten fired for X, but you think that this person should get fired for assault? Pretty hypocritical, don’t you think?”

                “No. I think it’s kind of sus that you’re comparing X to assault under color of medical authority.”

                Except we’re not even giving examples of people who said X! We’re just assuming them and then calling them hypocrites!Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Which person am I in those hypotheticals? Cuz neither of those sounds like anything I said.Report

          • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

            I think self-contained Twitter discourse is just self-contained Twitter discourse.

            Like if it doesn’t have incremental consequences for the cancelee, it’s unlikely to be worthy of consideration and is really just people arguing over “cancelation”/”cancel culture”/whatever, and most of them will be flat-out fuckwits because it’s Twitter and nothing interesting will come from examining it more closely.

            Unless you really like watching people being stupid on Twitter.

            And, like, of course I like that but I’m guessing you don’t or else you’d be on TwitterReport

  17. Russell Michaels says:

    But we can still be angry at the mob.Report