Wednesday Writs: DNA, Databases, & Incriminating Sexual Assault Victims

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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45 Responses

  1. Jennifer Worrel says:

    The Berkeley people are gonna offer on-line admission in place of the real deal, right? Because thats the same…and *Berkeley.*

    ::eyeroll::

    Chickens come home to roost.Report

    • dhex in reply to Jennifer Worrel says:

      dunno about no chickens or nuttin, but stuff like this or payment in lieu of taxes (PILOT) arrangements are typical in densely-populated areas with expanding higher ed institutions. sometimes it’s a reasonable deal for offsetting costs (generally, but not always, future costs) to municipalities and taxpayers, the reasoning going that non-profit entities have lower tax bases by dint of what they pay to localities – like non-academic use building taxes, usage fees, permits, muni bonds, and so on – and therefore need to offset it with a per-head fee.

      that said, i’ve been a part of hilarious pilot-style attempts in non-urban areas and that was basically the saddest set of extortion-via-the-keystone-cops meetings i’ve ever been a part of. protip for municipalities great and small – if you’re going to claim the institution costs you extra in fire and police activity (not future potential costs, mind you), you should probably keep records of things like fire and police calls to the institution, rather than just throwing your hands up and yelling gimme gimme. (also pretty sure that’s a violation of state law, or some law somewhere, but that’s neither here nor there.)Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    WW8: What a nightmare! The fact that it reached the triple digits should result in multiple firings.

    I mean, sure, you have one car reported as stolen because it’s parked in E3 instead of E8 and that’s something that could happen to anybody.

    Somewhere around 7 or 8 mistakes that result in police incidents in this short timeframe should have had a direct report to the President of Hertz making a direct report to the President of Hertz.

    230?!?!?!?Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

      What percentage of Actually Stolen Cars is that 230?

      On the one hand, you’re not wrong, instead of “230” it should have been “0”.

      On the other hand, I can see how someone with a lot to do and not much time might tell themselves that their job was to deal with theft of company property, not to keep customers happy, and that if they’d kept their rental papers (“which they were supposed to do anyway,” this person thinks) then they wouldn’t have anything to worry about. Rather a more utilitarian view, more so than we’d like people to take for things involving criminal-law enforcement, but I can see how someone would get there without being a sniggeringly-evil Captain Planet villain.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

        Given that 230 people apparently had sufficient standing to be part of the lawsuit, I’m guessing it is 0.

        Maybe it’s one. Maybe. But these are people who are part of the lawsuit itself. The number of customers reported for theft is what Hertz was fighting to be sealed.

        If *THAT* number is 231, we’ve got ourselves a situation.

        But I don’t know what the number actually is. We should wait for the Avis commercials to find out, I guess.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

      Corporations are well known for shooting the messenger, backing over the corpse and then burying it in the Meadowlands . . . this is not really any different then any other “they should have known better” thing for any corporation in the last 20 years or so.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

        It seems to me that this is one of those “should have known better” incidents that will result in a hit in the ledger.

        Which makes it *SIGNIFICANTLY* different than killing a few ecosystems.Report

    • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

      I wasn’t arrested, but I did once get a call from the cops after I’d dropped a car off with Enterprise while they were really busy, and therefore didn’t stick around for a receipt. The person I gave the keys too must not have put them where “returned” keys go, and they never bothered to look to see if the car was on the lot, so after a few days, they reported it stolen. I imagine this happens not often, but frequently enough that rental car companies must be aware of it, and the bad part here is that they went straight to arresting their customers.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

        From the article:

        Sometimes the problem arises after a renter changes cars or extends the rental period.

        This is even worse than I thought! I mean, like, the situation that you had happen was unfortunate but, like, I understand how it could happen (and, without pointing fingers, what could have been done to avoid it). I mean, I’m not saying that it was *GOOD*, but just that, hey, I have seen multiple instances of friction result in stuff like that and, as such, yeah. I can see how that ended up happening.

        And Hertz arguing that they can’t make the internal info public because competitors might use that against them?!?!?!? YES!

        I mean, it’d take a pretty stupid company to run a commercial that says “if we can’t find the car you rented from us, we won’t call the cops!” but I’m sure that a decent copywriter could come up with something that would dissuade Hertz from doing this again in the future to a degree that, apparently, being found liable in a court of law failed to do.

        Jeez louise.Report

        • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

          The number of times it happened is what’s truly amazing. After a few incidents, you’d expect someone to say, “You know what, something seems to be wrong with our system; we keep reporting cars stolen and then finding them right where they were supposed to be in our lot.” And you know, maybe some low-level worker did, and their manager, or their manager’s manager, realized that it was going to look bad, and didn’t say anything, to the tune of 230 people arrested and many millions in a legal settlement.Report

      • JS in reply to Chris says:

        FWIW, that’s a common practice at Hertz. Cars will be returned, they can’t find it, and they report it stolen. Because it’s easier for the cops to find it (usually in the hands of whomever they CURRENTLY have rented it to, or parked in one of their drop-off lots) than for them to locate their own mistake and figure out which office their car is at, and if it’s currently rented out.

        They also have a fun practice in which they overbook cars, and when you show up for it — they tell you they’re out, but you can rent from another location (generally an airport lot) for…considerably more. Because desperate people will have rented a car for 10 days for 500 bucks and, when stranded in a strange city, will sometimes pay 2000 for that exact same car.

        In short: Don’t do business with Hertz. They’re worse than the norm.Report

        • Chris in reply to JS says:

          Yeah, that’s what the story is about.

          I will say that everyone I’ve rented with overbooks, because they have an average rate of cancellations/no-shows, combined with people not returning cars on time, so I’d say about 1/3 of the times I rented cars from various companies (I used to be carless in a state with no interurban public transit to speak of, so I rented fairly often), the type of car I’d rented was completely out, and I’d either get a free upgrade to a better type they did have, or be offered a smaller option at the lower price (once I had to drive a little Fiat from Austin to the middle-of-nowhere; that was an adventure). Occasionally I’d have to wait an hour or more for a car to be returned so that I could take it. That’s definitely the default car rental business model.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

      Herz had 25 million cars rented last year.
      So one out of 100,000
      For perspective, 3500 were reported to the cops as stolen.
      So for the VP who deals with this sort of thing, 230 is 6 or 7 percent of that.

      Hertz has approximately 12,000 corporate and franchisee locations. So the typical location would zero incidences of this per year.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Dark Matter says:

        “We only reported 0.014% of our customers who did nothing wrong to the police!” is not a good ad.

        Maybe Avis could do an ad that says “out of all of the customers we had that returned our cars to us, we reported a grand total of ZERO! to the cops.”
        (cut to police beating a black guy on the ground)
        (guy yelling)
        “THAT HURTS! HERTZ! HERTZ!”
        (cut back to the Avis guy)
        “We’re number two. So we try harder.”Report

        • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

          I wonder what the real number is. Like, bloody fingerprints? A bag of cocaine fallen under the seat? A car returned with a ding on the bumper and washed by the renter, with a report of a hit-and-run in the neighborhood?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

            You’d think that that would be something that they’d want out there.

            “Yes, we called the police on Mr. Smith. There was a dufflebag in the trunk that was leaking blood. When we called the police, they opened the bag, they told us that they found three arms in said duffle bag. Three *LEFT* arms.”Report

  3. Chris says:

    Worth noting in the context of WWI that, while it would be an exaggeration to say that it was the original source of the contemporary abolition movement, the flame of that movement was carried for many years, prior to BLM and increased public consciousness of police killings, mostly by survivors of domestic and sexual violence, and their advocates, also mostly women (e.g., Mariame Kaba and Angela Davis), in no small part in response to cops’ tendency to criminalize the women victims of such violence. Therefore being skeptical of the collection of DNA by an institution that not only distrusts you, but often actively attempts to incriminate you, seems pretty reasonable to me, and means cops are putting yet another barrier between the victims of sexual and domestic violence and justice.Report

  4. Dark Matter says:

    RE: WW1

    Every person added to the database gives us more information about them and everyone else. So me adding my DNA in there tells the cops about my brothers and cousins. Some of my cousins are members of a sub-culture known for problems.

    That is the nature of the technology.

    So yes, from an informational standpoint I can easily see the cops adding everyone they can to that database. Victim, criminal, normal, whatever. I wouldn’t be surprised if they eventually make it a condition of employment.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Think the cops’ info will be in the database?Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Kazzy says:

        I think eventually everyone’s will be. We’ll be DNA’ed at birth or something.

        After we get used to it and change our expectations, this is a massive tool that is mostly going to be used for good. All rapists will be caught. Babies won’t be mixed up in the hospital. A lot of the cop’s jobs for identifying people will just be magically done.

        This is mostly good news but it will also bring up some pain points.Report

        • In a country that can’t stand to issue a national ID card?Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Michael Cain says:

            As of three years ago, roughly 26 million people had willingly shared their DNA.

            That number is only going up and the current generation is the most sensitive about privacy because we grew up with it. In the future it will be less scary.

            We already have the technology to find people via relatives, so me sharing mine says a lot about my children and even their children.

            There will be hold outs for a generation. It won’t make a difference because after enough relatives do it everyone will know about them anyway.

            In the future everyone will be (or effectively will be) in a single massive DNA database.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Dark Matter says:

              Does anyone remember getting fingerprinted by the police as a kid so that if you were ever kidnapped they could identify you? Whatever came of that? And how does this differ?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                Fingerprints are not static, they change over time. If you got finger printed 5 years ago, chances are pretty good your fingerprints have changed enough to fail on a partial match.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Kazzy says:

                It’s different because of permanence (your DNA never changes), ease of digital storage, accuracy, usefulness, ease of evaluation, and odds that you’ll leave enough information to be evaluated.

                So it’s fingerprints on really good steroids in multiple ways.

                It gives so much information that it even identifies your relatives.Report

        • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter says:

          After we get used to it and change our expectations, [a universal national ID card] is a massive tool that is mostly going to be used for good.

          After we get used to it and change our expectations, [in vitro genetic editing of human embryos] is a massive tool that is mostly going to be used for good.

          After we get used to it and change our expectations, [governance by AI algorithms instead of participatory democracy] is a massive tool that is mostly going to be used for good.

          After we get used to it and change our expectations, [anything can be] a massive tool that is mostly going to be used for good.

          But will it? This is why we have science fiction, so that we can think about what the implications and possible dark sides of new technologies might be, and prepare to mitigate them. And we have to do that with today’s morals and today’s expectations.

          I join the OP (that is to say, @darkmatter) in predicting this [universal DNA databasing] will mostly come true. Whether that’s a good thing or not depends on what you think.of life in the Panopticon.Report

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    WW5: This whole debacle is NIMBYism at its worse. As a YIMBY, it also makes me depressed about the sheer unrelenting power, force, and imagination of the NIMBYs. The big issue sociologically speaking is that NIMBYs are a vast baptist-bootlegger coalition and this diversity gives them strength and shields. You have:

    1. People who just want to keep housing stock low because it keeps their housing prices high. Obvious bootleggers;

    2. People stuck with old politics. There was a time when it was probably good to stick to developers who were just tearing everything down. A lot of these people are now in their 70s and even 80s but can’t seem to give up their old worldviews;

    3. People of various ages, races, and ethnicities, but generally low-income levels who may be temporarily displaced by development and gentrification or fear that they will. This is the baptist shield.

    Group #1’s interest are easy to identify and venal and should be ignored and dismissed. Group # 3 is tough to deal with because I have tried many times to explain that they are only shooting themselves in their own feet with their anti-development and anti-building stance but to no avail. They don’t see that there is a lot of demand and a huge supply backlog and that yes, yuppie gentrification buildings. Blocking buildings will only lead to more displacement.Report

  6. Marchmaine says:

    WWI: Seems to me that Ubiquitous Data necessitates an important updating of the 4th Amendment via a case something like this. What constitutes security in persons, papers and effects vs. untargeted searches and seizures?

    Trolling some data sources might(?) be ok, but we need various levels or rings/fences around data absent probable cause.

    Honestly, the ‘back-door’ for law enforcement as DM notes above is probably freely given genetic information from relatives. At which point, probable cause to search the victim database might over-ride any thing else. Nonetheless, probably better than just searching for matches in data that ought to be considered protected effects.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Marchmaine says:

      You could do a fence of “You can only troll the DNA DBs for cases of violence against persons and only after the case has gone cold for at least 5 years.”Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        I think its a separate issue of keeping the DNA that is provided as a victim completely separate from DNA DB’s in the aggregate.

        Theoretically that data would be available under probable cause, but not just ’cause its there in digital form.

        Honestly, I’m not 100% sure that DNA trolling by law enforcement is a good idea in the same way I’m not sure advanced surveillance and digital analysis of the entire citizenry isn’t an apriori violation of the 4th.

        Where are all my liberals and living constitution folks who see that emerging technology is making questions of ‘privacy’ and ‘security’ in person and effects relevant in ways where the framers had no earthly notion such things could even be dreamed of. The fact that the Govt is moving into these spaces un-opposed… or even cheered… has to be addressed earlier rather than later? No?

        And as of now I think we’re closer to later than earlier.Report

        • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

          There isn’t going to be a constitutional solution. It needs to be statutory and I think is only likely to happen as part of or in reaction to a voter referendum, if at all. The government, particularly at the state level is slowly developing an appetite to regulate data captured in the private sector. You see less willingness to do it when it could result in restricting state agents.

          Part of the problem is how fickle the public is. No one wants victims to be abused but neither does anyone want someone who does something serious walking out of police custody. The headlines write themselves.

          Unbeknownst to many it’s been common practice for years now for police departments to ‘swab’ anyone who is arrested for any offense as part of the booking process. Sometimes it’s helpful. When I was interning with a circuit court judge in law school I saw a guy who was caught and convicted for a 15+ year old cold rape case as a result of literally trolling the database. I’m comfortable saying he almost certainly would have never been caught but for this process.

          At the same time you’re letting a bunch of state agents who aren’t always particularly competent or operating under remotely sensible incentives build something with enormous potential for abuse.

          But let’s also be realistic. If we restrict what what SF is doing, one day, a situation will arise where a woman who killed someone or did something else heinous will walk in and out of a police station without being arrested. If it is discovered the victim and/or their relatives will ask emotionally resonant questions about ‘how this could have been allowed.’

          So all of that is to say we have to pick our poison. There will never he a policy without outcomes that pull on the heart strings.Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

            Sure, legislation would be lovely.

            I’m not sure that there’s *no* situation in which the Courts (eventually) step in and decide that Govt. surveillance has exceeded the Constitutional protections afforded by the 4th. But I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to whether I think it probable or even likely.

            I work in the Data space and while all of my customers are using their data for good (Hey, we know what kind of Cheese InMD likes, so we’ll put some in his room next time he visits!) But then I also see how much and what kind of data we’re getting and, um, it’s a lot more than cheese preferences. And my customers don’t really have an angle on whether you ought to be at liberty or not. At least not yet, not until there are new monetary advantages to selling that information to people who might.

            Is that happening already? From what I’ve heard, yes.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Marchmaine says:

              We’re still adapting to big data, i.e. computer databases and neuro nets.

              Target put together a way to use product purchase habits to tell when a woman is pregnant before she’s announced that to anyone.

              That’s a big deal from an advertising point of view. Most people have pretty fixed purchasing habits. What you buy this week will be very similar to what you buy last week.

              There are key points in your life when purchasing habits become fluid and you become a lot more receptive to advertising before your habits become fixed again. Pregnancy is a big key point. Knowing that fact before the other advertisers is a massive advantage.

              Of course this is intrusive and people hate that, so the solution is to next your discount coupons for baby stuff with discount coupons for chain saw blades and tires so the whole thing looks random.Report

  7. LeeEsq says:

    WW5: Joining my brother on this. Housing is really getting ridiculously expensive. The only way to bring things under control is a massive building program. The NIMBYs, especially the wealthy and influential powerful ones, are going to use every tool available to stop this.Report

  8. Jaybird says:

    Speaking of DNA collection conspiracy theories…

    Seriously, I would have sworn that this was nuts a couple of days ago.Report

  9. CJColucci says:

    WW6: I have appeared before Judge Rakoff and participated in a NYC Bar Association musical comedy roast of him, which, being the ego junkie he is, he loved. He always thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room. Trouble is, that’s true only 98.4% of the time.
    That said, if he thought the evidence would support a JNOV, I’d be inclined to take his assessment unless I sat through the testimony myself and had a reason to see it differently.
    But he seems to have outsmarted himself this time. He obviously expects, probably correctly, an appeal that would tee up a Supreme Court case that, if successful, would change the legal standard he and the Court of Appeals are currently bound to apply. He wanted the jury’s verdict in the record to avoid the one thing judges hate most, a retrial. If the jury found in Palin’s favor, it might be possible simply to reinstate the verdict. Now he has screwed that up.
    Normally, at the close of the evidence, the defendant moves for judgment as a matter of law (“JMOL”), which is determined using the same standard as a JNOV motion. In all but the clearest cases, the ordinary hack judge (I mean no criticism; I usually prefer ordinary hack judges.) will reserve decision on the JMOL motion in the hope that the jury will come out “right” and bail him out. If the jury comes out “wrong,” the ordinary hack judge will then bite the bullet and grant a JNOV motion, but he would prefer to avoid the necessity. And if the ordinary hack judge is wrong in granting a JNOV motion, there’s a jury verdict that can simply be reinstated, avoiding the dreaded retrial. Sometimes, the ordinary hack judge will tell the lawyers which way he is leaning, possibly to induce a settlement.
    Judge Rakoff, however, said outright that he was going to grant the JMOL motion while letting the jury issue a verdict. That is unusual, and, as it proved, unwise. Perhaps he figured that the jury would come out “right” anyway, so it wouldn’t matter whether he was right to grant the JMOL motion. But somehow it came to the jurors’ attention that the judge had decided that the case was meritless, so there’s a good chance that the verdict for the Times was tainted. If the JMOL grant was correct, no harm, no foul. The jury’s verdict, whatever it had been, would be irrelevant. But now, if the JMOL is reversed, it will probably not be possible to fall back on the jury’s verdict, which would otherwise sustain the outcome. There will have to be a retrial after all.
    If Judge Rakoff had just done what the ordinary hack judge would have done, none of this would have happened. What was he thinking?Report