Mandatory Vaccines for Veterans Affairs and Other Health Care Workers As Covid Cases Climb

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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35 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    Cue paranoid conspiracy theories in 3.. 2.. 1..Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      I have a co-worker who is not anti-vax but merely anti-THIS-vax.

      I bugged him about getting the shot, told him that the side effects were like a hangover but no worse than a hangover, everything. I tried to convince him.

      He asked me why the FDA hasn’t approved it yet. He said that he’ll get the shot… once the FDA approves it.

      And I found myself with a whole bunch of rants about the FDA that more or less died in my throat because, hey, this wasn’t about my crazy opinions on the FDA but about trying to get him to get the shot.

      Anyway, if the FDA approved it, it’d make things a lot easier, I think.

      It’s one thing to make an approved shot mandatory. Quite another to make one that hasn’t been approved mandatory.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

        You’d think by now there would be enough data for approval.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          I have a handful of rants about how the FDA is risk-adverse to the point where it’s willing to kill people through inaction but most of the people here have heard them already.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

            They have powerful incentives to be risk adverse.Report

            • James K in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              And unfortunately, nothing will change unless they are held accountable for the deaths they cause through inaction, and not merely the deaths they cause through action.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to James K says:

                Or, alternatively, they are not tossed under the bus for the next Thalidomide, when they did due diligence and were trying to save lives.Report

              • JS in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Hey, can we do something about this guy?

                I don’t mind having a dose of conspiracy crazy to remind us all that it exists in real life, but the constant spamming of it under a dozen different user names is kind of old.

                If I was cynical, I’d say he keeps changing his name to evade people muting him. Or bans that haven’t been made public.Report

        • I believe that both Moderna and BioNTech were tinkering with their manufacturing methods and supply chains right up until they submitted their applications for full approval. The FDA has limited resources for doing all the analyses and on-site inspections required for the manufacturing and distribution parts of the approval. Stuff I have read suggests that the manufacturing part of the approval usually takes a year, and shortening it to less than six months is very difficult.

          Didn’t help that J&J had to toss 60M doses of their vaccine due to manufacturing problems in the US.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

        I think the funniest thing is when the people who say “the FDA is too risk-averse and it’s holding back progress” and the people who say “the FDA approved this vaccine too fast, there’s no way they’re sure it’s safe” are the same people

        (almost as funny as the people who still wear masks even though they’re no longer mandatory, but still wear them pulled down below their nose)Report

        • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

          I’d enjoy having a discussion about “safe” and talk about stuff like tradeoffs and whatnot.

          I’m sure you’ve seen the P&T vaccinations clip.

          For those who have not:

          We got into this with the whole AZ/J&J shot thing and the blood clots.

          How many people got the shot? How many people got the blood clots after the shot? How many people who got the blood clots after getting the shot went on to die?

          How many people got the covid? How many people who got the covid ended up dying? How many got the long covid?

          What are the tradeoffs?

          I could see waiting two extra days to get the Moderna but not waiting two extra years.

          But you don’t see the big discussions about this sort of thing in anybody’s hands but the enthusiastic amateurs. Which is irritating.Report

          • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

            Thing is, the FDA’s job is not “improve public health on average”. The FDA’s remit is to stop anyone being harmed by an adverse event involving a pharmaceutical or medical treatment. Stopping all use of the J&J vaccine without doing that kind of how-many-will-die-without-it analysis is exactly what the FDA thinks it’s supposed to do. If someone will die without the vaccine, well, they’d have died anyway, and now there won’t be anyone dying because of the vaccine.

            “Don’t they know it’s different?” Well. One of the many amazing things about this while business has been just how hard government agencies went on Not Acting Like This Is Any Different. And, y’know, it’s not actually hard to understand why, because any regulation they relax Because COVID, any requirement they waive Because COVID, that’s all going to have to be put back later, and for the vast majority of these regulations the only thing justifying them is inertia. They’re in charge because They’re In Charge, and as soon as they stop being In Charge then they’ll never be in charge again, because it will be demonstrably the case that when they were Not In Charge the world did not slump over into a hell of death and misery.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

            But you don’t see the big discussions about this sort of thing in anybody’s hands but the enthusiastic amateurs. Which is irritating.

            For some values of “you,” this is an accurate statement of what people “see.” And maybe it is irritating. But the “big discussions” would be among people actually qualified to look at the data and understand it and follow the discussion. Which isn’t most of us. And doesn’t become most of us after cursory reviews by “enthusiastic amateurs” that may or may not accurately reflect what the people with the background and training to understand and explain have seen and said. Which is why I have scrupulously avoided playing amateur epidemiologist or amateur immunologist throughout this pandemic.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

              And so we’re stuck with trusting that the authorities know what they’re doing.

              They must!Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                …we’re stuck with trusting that the authorities know what they’re doing.

                As opposed to when?
                In virtually every moment of our life, we are trusting that the authorities- the doctor, the airline pilot, guy who built the bridge we cross- knows what he is doing.

                Why is this different?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                It depends on whether you see “The FDA hasn’t approved the shot!” as a fundamentally good argument to not get it, I guess.

                (And, of course, whether to truth the authorities who say “you have to wear a mask!” without using the word “N95”.)Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Is heroin actually bad?
                Are vegetables actually good?
                Does the vaccine work or not?
                Should I mask up or not?

                All these questions are clouded by contrarian viewpoints and cranks who sometimes turn out to be right.

                But the end of the day, every person has to make a decision and pull the trigger one way or the other.

                For me personally, the fact that virtually all cases are now among people who are unvaccinated and unmasked gives me the information I need for my personal health.

                YMMVReport

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Oh, I agree! I, personally, think that the FDA is a lot more restrictive than it needs to be.

                But, you know.

                There are people out there who think that it’s appropriately restrictive and then say stuff like “I’ll take the shot once the FDA approves it”.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                The experts can be wrong, but if they are they will be caught out by other experts, not by talking heads and barstool pundits. You can call that “stuck” if you like. As if there were an alternative.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                As if there were an alternative.

                I’ll just go back to my complaint about a lack of transparency and how you don’t see the big discussions about this sort of thing in anybody’s hands but the enthusiastic amateurs. Which is irritating.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                I suppose what you “don’t see” is a function of where you don’t look.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                While absolutely true, I have, at least, *TRIED* to find good stuff on this.

                I like Zeynep Tufekci. Unfortunately, she merely qualifies as an exceptionally good amateur.Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci says:

              ” the “big discussions” would be among people actually qualified to look at the data and understand it and follow the discussion. ”

              why would that not be the FDA?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck says:

                The FDA is Jaybird’s hobby horse, not mine. Take it up with him.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci says:

                What’s your idea of “people actually qualified to look at the data and understand it and follow the discussion” regarding a pandemic like COVID-19?

                You very clearly have an idea of who this is. Who is it?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck says:

                You mean besides the obvious?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to CJColucci says:

                I don’t know. You tell me. And while you’re at it, you can try to explain what you yourself are saying and what your point, if any, is.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci says:

                “You mean besides the obvious?”

                Typically cowardly behavior; you’re too scared to put up your stuff because you know you’ve got nothing. God help your clients.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck says:

                If I thought you didn’t actually have pretty much the same idea as I have and almost everyone else has, I might take the time and effort to explain the — yes — obvious. But you aren’t actually confused, so I won’t.
                As for my clients, they seem pretty satisfied. And the results justify their satisfaction.Report

        • PD Shaw in reply to DensityDuck says:

          St. Louis has just reinstated mask mandates (both city and county, which don’t overlap). The State is suing both because the mandate “undermines the important push for vaccinations.”

          I guess the irony to me is that the emergency authorization for vaccine was amply justified by lack of known treatments, knowledge about the virus in general, and hospital capacity. The success of the vaccine tends to undercut the emergency. Now we have places declaring an emergency and mandating masks.Report

          • Mike Schilling in reply to PD Shaw says:

            Now with delta, we’re headed back towards the pro-vaccination situation (and some places have gotten to and passed it), because of higher transmission rates, so some places are mandating masks to try to slow transmission. Makes sense to me.Report

  2. Slade the Leveller says:

    Honestly, this is a no brainer, and long overdue. It’s hard to believe the medical field is coming to this so late.Report

  3. Tony Santucci says:

    Managing members of the ruling Biden junta, Facebook and Google, have announced plans to “have everyone who returns to work be vaccinated.”
    Within the day, they were already making exceptions. “Not you. You’re important.”Report