Linky Friday: Sowing Seeds, Reaping Whirlwinds Edition
As always, the pieces featured in Linky Friday and opinions therein are those of the authors, and presented here for discussion purposes and not as endorsements by Ordinary Times
[LF1] Tucker Carlson’s 1999 Comments About Donald Trump Say A Lot About How We Got Here By Sarah Rumpf for Mediaite
Carlson’s 1999 words, from an exchange with another writer at Slate published there as part of a running discussion, agreed with his fellow contributor that Trump was “the single most repulsive person on the planet,” and that quote made it into numerous headlines and tweets, chuckling over the oh-s0-obvious hypocrisy of Carlson being one of Trump’s most vocal cheerleaders on his popular Fox News program if he really thought so poorly of the real estate tycoon-turned-GOP figurehead.
Mediaite reached out to Fox News regarding the 1999 quote about Trump, and was pointed to a January 2016 article Carlson wrote for Politico, titled “Donald Trump is Shocking, Vulgar and Right.” Scolded the subhead: “And my dear fellow Republicans, he’s all your fault.”
Trump, wrote Carlson, was an “imperfect candidate,” but one whose candidacy could still be “instructive” for the GOP, as Republican voters rejected policies supported by conservative think tanks and evangelical Christians had “given up trying to elect one of their own” and simply wanted “a bodyguard, someone to shield them from mounting (and real) threats to their freedom of speech and worship.”
“In a country where almost everyone in public life lies reflexively,” Carlson opined, “it’s thrilling to hear someone say what he really thinks, even if you believe he’s wrong. It’s especially exciting when you suspect he’s right.”
Is Trump “thrilling”? The media certainly has treated him so. (I’ll acknowledge my own conflict on this, as I am spending time writing an article about what a cable news host said about Trump over two decades ago.)
Let’s look at the larger context of Carlson’s 1999 quote, as described by Kranish:
“You’ve said it all: He is the single most repulsive person on the planet. . . . That said, I still plan to write about him some time. I don’t think I’ll be able to help it. Horrible as he is (or perhaps because he is so horrible), Trump is interesting, or at least more so than most candidates.” Carlson wrote that Trump and the Reform Party reflected the fact “that ideology as a force in national elections is dead,” before correcting himself to say, “They’re just a bunch of wackos.”
Trump is indeed “repulsive” and “horrible,” but Carlson still planned to write about him because he was “interesting,” or at least more interesting than political candidates usually are. In fact, Carlson went so far as to frame it as possibly inevitable that he would write about Trump — and that was in 1999, when Trump was merely flirting with the idea of running as a third party candidate with the Reform Party, a group that Carlson dismissed as “a bunch of wackos” whose contribution to the national political discourse was to show that “ideology” was “dead.”
Trump as an official contender for the GOP presidential nomination certainly surpassed any level of “interesting” he may have achieved as a potential Reform Party candidate, and that argument became easier and easier to make as he steadily outlasted his Republican primary opponents.
[LF2] Some ballots initially double-counted in Fulton before recount by By Mark Niesse in The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Digital ballot images made public under Georgia’s new voting law show nearly 200 ballots — including one for West — that election officials initially scanned two times last fall before a recount. There’s no indication any vote for president was counted more than once in official results.
The discovery of identical ballots provides evidence to back up allegations of problems in the presidential election, but on a relatively small scale that had no bearing on the final certified count. A group of voters seeking to prove the election was fraudulent say double-counting is just the beginning of what they hope to find.
Supporters of Republican Donald Trump have been searching for signs of fraud since his 12,000-vote loss to Democrat Joe Biden in Georgia. But two recounts confirmed Biden’s victory, and the courts have rejected lawsuits that sought to overturn the results.
Double-counted ballots were discovered by voters suing Fulton in an effort to persuade a judge to allow them to conduct an in-depth inspection of 147,000 absentee ballots. The judge ruled against the plaintiffs last month, but the case survived with new claims filed against the county’s five election board members.
“If we’re finding this in Fulton County, we’re probably going to find it throughout the state. The question is, why did it happen?” said David Cross, an investment manager working with the plaintiffs. “The simple fact that it happened and we found it here means that it probably occurred elsewhere.”
Election observers and organizations say it’s unlikely that double-counting occurred often or in large numbers.
The ballots counted twice would have given Biden 31 extra votes. After a recount, official results reflected that Trump gained a total of 121 absentee votes in Fulton. Biden won the county with 73% of 524,000 votes cast.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution also verified the duplicate ballots in ballot images obtained under the Georgia Open Records Act and posted online.
The overall number of ballots counted in Georgia generally matched the number of voters who checked in at polling places or returned absentee ballots. Manual and machine recounts found similar totals for each candidate.
“It’s Fulton failing to follow proper election protocols again,” said Carter Jones, an independent monitor of Fulton’s elections who found sloppy practices but no fraud. “Fulton is so poor at managing the actual process that if they had actually tried to rig the election, they would have bungled it and we would have found out.”
Jones said it’s possible that an election worker lost track of which absentee ballots had already been scanned in the initial count and then ran them through the machine again.
Jones, hired by the State Election Board to observe Fulton’s elections after last year’s primary, recommended that the county change absentee ballot processing during the recount and runoff, boxing up absentee ballots for storage as soon as they were scanned. The county followed his advice, reducing the chance that ballots would be counted twice.
The most obvious example of duplicates in the initial count occurred in a batch of 99 ballots first scanned the morning of Oct. 28, then scanned again about an hour later, with the second batch tallied in exact reverse order from the first. Those batches had 58 votes for Biden, 39 for Trump, one for Libertarian Jo Jorgensen and one for West.
Part or all of another batch of 98 ballots appeared to be scanned a second time within minutes on election night. Biden received 55 votes in the first of those batches and 56 in the second batch. Many of the ballots appeared to be identical.
“It’s something that should never happen,” said Mark Lindeman, acting co-director for Verified Voting, an election integrity organization focused on voting technology. “I’m not trying to make excuses for a blunder, but under really difficult circumstances, people do things that are inexplicable, and that seems to be the case here.”
Lindeman said he couldn’t recall another example of ballots being scanned twice anywhere in the country. He suggested stronger ballot tracking practices, with ballots divided into batches with unique identifying labels and cover sheets. Some jurisdictions imprint serial numbers on absentee ballots as they’re scanned for use during audits.
Fulton election officials declined to comment while the court case seeking a ballot inspection is pending.
[LF3] Wake Up, Democrats, You’re Fighting the Last War by Nicholas Grossman in Arc Digital
Concerning historical analogies abound. Gen. Milley also made Nazi comparisons, fearing in January that Trump was inciting violence in an echo of the Reichstag fire (an attack on the German legislature that Hitler used as a pretext). David Frum sees some similarities in Peron’s Argentina. In the comparison closest to home, The New York Times’ Jamelle Bouie finds parallels in the post-Civil War South, as many Confederate leaders, who mostly went unpunished, “moved smoothly from open rebellion to opposition to Reconstruction to serving as propagandists for what would become the ‘Lost Cause.’”
None of these analogies are exact. 21st century America is in better shape than 20th century Germany or Argentina, or the 19th century South. (Though none of them had the internet.) But the U.S. is experiencing something closer to these slides into authoritarianism than a supporter of American democracy should find comfortable.
This is an unusual time in U.S. history — when has a large American political movement had a martyr, let alone one killed by a police officer while participating in a violent attack on the U.S. government? — and pro-democracy Americans would be wise to act like it. The Trumpist movement, which dominates the Republican Party, has shown it does not respect, and if anything disdains, the basic principles of Constitutional democracy. Their words and actions indicate they are willing, even eager, to discard norms, and to manipulate — or, if they can get away with it, ignore — laws to get power. We’ve seen losing candidates complain about election results before, but modern America hasn’t seen anything close to this.
Taking it seriously means we should work to reduce the probability that these anti-democracy forces gain power. Draw lessons from historical comparisons and use this moment when a pro-democracy coalition has institutional power to strengthen the system against attack. And that means thinking about what the attackers are trying to do.
[LF4] THE TRUTH BEHIND THE AMAZON MYSTERY SEEDS: Why did so many Americans receive strange packages they didn’t think they’d ordered?
By Chris Heath in The Atlantic
If someone had wanted to invent a surreal provocation designed to unnerve Americans in the summer of 2020, it’s difficult to conceive of a better one than a deluge of unsolicited Chinese seeds. For one thing, in those first months of the coronavirus pandemic, references to China triggered associations—rational or otherwise—with contagion. For another, these objects were invading private spaces at a time when most of us were newly hypersensitive to our surroundings. And what was happening was something that was hard to explain, in a moment when so many fears that might have once seemed far-fetched were either being realized or, at the very least, suddenly sounding plausible.
Even people who considered themselves above the lure of alarmist theories had to take the seeds seriously. Irrespective of why they were appearing at people’s homes, their very existence—as biological matter of unknown origin—constituted a problem. This reality acted as a narrative anchor for what might otherwise have seemed to be fanciful media stories. The government genuinely was concerned. Whenever someone wanted to tell the story of these Chinese seeds, a local or federal agriculture spokesperson was always available to expound on how unknown seeds of foreign origin were, until proved otherwise, a threat to American agriculture or even the whole North American ecosystem. Advice soon circulated that the seeds should not be planted, burned, or even disposed of in the trash, given the possibility that they could germinate and disseminate from a landfill. And if you received any, the government would definitely like to know about it.
This combination of factors—a mystery, multiple anxiety triggers within the perpetual panic chamber we live in, and a bedrock empirical reason this had to be taken seriously—encouraged a proliferation of wild theories. Here, for instance, are some of the explanations that I saw floated, for the most part not at the rabidly conspiratorial fringes of the internet, but on gardening-group and state-agriculture-department Facebook pages: that the seeds were Chinese bioweapons, laced with viruses or poisons, or that they were engineered through genetic manipulation or nanotechnology (threads picked up in a Tucker Carlson Tonight segment with the chyron could mysterious seeds be biological attack?); that they were part of a “deep state” strategy to control our gardens, or a false-flag operation to discredit China; that they were a Chinese cure for COVID-19 suppressed by Big Pharma; and that they would grow to feed swarms of invasive murder hornets.
A year later, however, no monstrous mystery vines are strangling America’s cornfields. The seeds mostly stopped coming, and the world moved on. But I wanted to know: What was it all about? So I decided to reimmerse myself in the giddy anxiety of last summer. I planned to speak with some of those who had received the packages, dissect the hullabaloo around them, and construct the definitive account of the seeds-from-China moral panic.
It seemed straightforward enough. I had no idea.
[LF5] US cracks down on “Fulfilled by Amazon,” citing sale of 400,000+ hazardous items by Jon Brodkin in ars Technica
The US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) yesterday filed a complaint against Amazon over the sale of hundreds of thousands of hazardous products, including carbon monoxide detectors that fail to detect carbon monoxide, hair dryers without required protection from shock and electrocution, and flammable sleepwear meant for children. The CPSC said it sued Amazon to “force [the] recall” of the dangerous products. While Amazon has halted sales of most of them already and issued refunds, the CPSC said it isn’t satisfied with how Amazon notified customers and said the industry giant must do more to ensure that the faulty products are destroyed.
The dangerous products were offered by third parties using the “Fulfilled by Amazon” (FBA) program, in which Amazon stores products in its warehouses, ships them to customers, and takes a sizable cut from the proceeds. The CPSC’s administrative complaint alleges that Amazon hasn’t taken enough responsibility for dangerous third-party products that it ships via FBA.
The complaint didn’t mention any specific incidents of injury but said the evidence supporting the charges includes “lawsuits concerning incidents or injuries involving various consumer products identified in the Complaint.” It also said that CPSC staff tested the products and found that they don’t meet safety requirements. Products that don’t meet these requirements pose a substantial risk of injury or death to consumers, the agency said.
“The complaint charges that the specific products are defective and pose a risk of serious injury or death to consumers and that Amazon is legally responsible to recall them,” the CPSC announcement said. “The named products include 24,000 faulty carbon monoxide detectors that fail to alarm, numerous children’s sleepwear garments that are in violation of the flammable fabric safety standard risking burn injuries to children, and nearly 400,000 hair dryers sold without the required immersion protection devices that protect consumers against shock and electrocution.”
The CPSC said its complaint “seeks to force Amazon, as a distributor of the products, to stop selling these products, work with CPSC staff on a recall of the products, and to directly notify consumers who purchased them about the recall and offer them a full refund.”
“We must grapple with how to deal with these massive third-party platforms more efficiently, and how best to protect the American consumers who rely on them,” CPSC acting Chairman Robert Adler said.
In a statement provided to Ars, Amazon said it has already removed the “vast majority” of the products from its online store, notified customers, and provided refunds. Amazon alleged that the CPSC hasn’t provided enough information about the remaining products.
[LF6] Arizona judge says audit documents — including who is paying for recount — are public records by Ryan Randazzo in The Arizona Republic
A Maricopa County Superior Court Judge on Thursday ruled that communications between Senate Republicans, the company called Cyber Ninjas and other vendors they hired to audit Maricopa County’s 2020 election are public documents.
Judge Michael Kemp said “any and all” records with a “substantial nexus” to the audit are public records, including all communications related to planning the audit, policies and procedures of the audit and all records disclosing who is paying for the audit and how much is being paid.
The nonprofit group American Oversight sued Senate President Karen Fann, R-Prescott, and the Senate, seeking communications with the companies regarding what the senators call a “forensic audit” of the election that Donald Trump lost to Joe Biden. The Senate asked for the case to be dismissed, but Kemp refused.
American Oversight was formed to investigate the Trump administration, and its founders have Democratic ties.
“It is difficult to conceive of a case with a more compelling public interest demanding public disclosure and public scrutiny,” Kemp said in his order.
The Senate Republicans argued that because some of the requested records are held by Cyber Ninjas and other contractors, they are not subject to the Arizona Public Records Law. Kemp called that argument “absurd” because it would mean public officials could shield records of their official activities, like the audit, by farming the work out to contractors.
“The court completely rejects Senate defendants’ argument that since (Cyber Ninjas) and the subvendors are not ‘public bodies’ they are exempt from the (public records law),” Kemp wrote. “The core purpose of the public records law is to allow public access to official records and other government information so that the public may monitor the performance of government officials and their employees.”
The Senate agreed to pay Cyber Ninjas $150,000 for the work, though that clearly is not enough to cover the full scope of work and equipment used at Veterans Memorial Coliseum to re-tally the approximately 2.1 million ballots.
Partisan Trump supporters including a personality with the One American News cable channel and former Overstock.com CEO Patrick Byrne have raised money they claim will help fund the audit, though details of exactly where that money is coming from and who is getting paid are not publicly known. The records should help provide those details.
“The public does not know who is financing the remaining costs or what compensation is being made to subvendors or any other entity involved in the audit,” Kemp wrote.
[LF7] Shark advocates call for rebranding violent attacks as ‘interactions’ By Hannah Sparks
Who’s attacking whom here?
Marine experts and advocates in Australia are urging the public to refrain from using the word “attack” in reference to sharks, declaring that the majestic predatory fish has been unfairly stigmatized as a deliberate killer.
Instead, officials have suggested that violent run-ins with sharks be dubbed with more neutral words — such as “interactions.”
Others have suggested swapping the word with the terms “negative encounter,” “incident” or simply “bites,” the Sydney Morning Herald recently reported.
”‘Shark attack’ is a lie,” said University of Sydney language researcher Christopher Pepin-Neff, who argued that a majority of what people call “attacks” are merely nips and minor injuries from smaller sharks.
He also told the Aussie outlet that such phenomena were once called “shark accidents,” prior to the 1930s when prominent Sydney surgeon Victor Coppleson began calling them “attacks.”
The change marked a shift in mood as shark nets were also being implemented on Australian beaches at that time.
Government agencies have also begun to adopt new language, including the Department of Primary Industries in New South Wales (NSW DPI), which has worked with a shark-survivors support group, Bite Club, to identify more sensitive vocabulary to describe an audience with a shark.
“NSW DPI is respectful that each incident is best described by the individual involved,” a spokeswoman said. “DPI generally refers to ‘incidents’ or ‘interactions’ in our formal shark reporting.”
Leonardo Guida, shark researcher at the Australian Marine Conservation Society,
told the Sydney Morning Herald the change is important “because it helps dispel inherent assumptions that sharks are ravenous, mindless man-eating monsters.”To describe shark interactions more accurately “helps improve the public’s understanding of sharks and how they behave,” he added. The move is indicative of a wider trend in animal advocacy — as seen in People for the Ethical Treatment of Animal’s recent campaign to denounce insults that implicate animals, such as calling someone a “chicken” or “pig.”
Guida was present at Noosa Biosphere Reserve Foundation’s annual shark symposium in May where researchers discussed the shark attack rebrand, favoring the softer term “bite” over “attack” to describe injurious meetings with sharks. Noosa’s SharkSmart website writes about how swimmers can reduce their odds “of a negative encounter with a shark.”
[LF8] ICYMI Video Throughput: The Science of Navigation
LF 6 – that document dump could be very interesting. One suspects it will make Arizona Senate Republicans look quite inept, spawn several lawsuits about misuse of public funds, and make good campaign fodder in an increasingly purple state. One also suspects it will result in huge fund raising hauls for said Republicans who will claim the courts are no longer defending “The American Way of Life.”Report
I expect that the document dump will be much smaller than everyone thinks because so many documents were either never produced or not retained.
There was a public briefing this week with Cyber Ninjas and associates giving information to a select group of Arizona state senators. No questions were allowed. The Ninjas reported that their count of the total number of ballots cast differed from the count provided by Maricopa County, and that the ballots were now being run through yet another set of machines that counted only the sheets of paper but didn’t examine any markings.Report
Over count or under count?Report
They didn’t say. Nor did they indicate the scale. Just “different”.
Pure speculation on my part, but… They’ve reached the point where they need to give the ballots back. They’ve lost, or at least misplaced, a bunch — I’m thinking thousands — and know it. They know Maricopa County is going to go through the boxes and bundles to verify the stuff they get back keeps them in compliance with federal law on ballot retention. Any deviations will be reported. This latest count of physical ballots is an excuse to go through all the boxes and bundles in hopes of finding the missing ballotsReport
Well if you loose ballots you will get a different count.Report
And eventually, probably go to jail. :^)Report
LF7: this has the unfortunate side effect of making people look at previous rebrandings.Report
LF3:
This is the part that stands out for me:
The Republican Party has rallied around the idea that Trump’s effort to overturn the election was justified. That it is entitled to power, even if it cannot win electoral majorities. That its opponents are inherently illegitimate. That incessant lies about observable facts, even violence against the government, are acceptable.
Because it isn’t some new turn; The Flight 93 essay, the “But Her Emails” apologists, the “He’s a flawed vessel for God’s will” justification…These are all telling the same story, that Republicans consider their fellow citizens who disagree with them are inherently illegitimate and not entitled to hold power.
This is a wholesale rejection of the very premise of republican democracy.Report
A double digit percentage of the US believes, really believes, that the election was stolen and their guy won.
That puts us into very weird territory.Report
Republican politicians have spent most of the last 40 years building the political and media ecosystem that created that outcome. Many of us on the left spent many a year pointing out – at least broadly – that this was coming. And we were pilloried for it.
Absent significant election losses – which those same Republican politicians are trying to stave off with ever restrictive laws and ever bigger lies – I don’t see the tide turning easily. What happens when August comes and Trump is STILL not put back in office?Report
“Republican politicians”? The media ecosystem is largely (maybe entirely) driven by technology.
Nothing with happen. Just like nothing was going to happen after Bush won in Bush v Gore and the Dems were trying to claim he wasn’t really the President. A sitting President has a ton of power. That the election loser is hurt and badmouthing him is hardly a new thing.
Trump is the shrinking man. Without constant media exposure he has very little. His lawyers are/will be disbarred. Without the office of the Presidency he can’t, even in theory, help his followers. He has, and has never had, any new or good ideas. He has entertaining bluster and that’s all.
He may run for office again. He might get the nod but he can’t win. I can’t vote for him after all of this nonsense.Report
Even if he were to vanish off the Earth tomorrow, Trumpism is now the established doctrine of the Republican Party.
That is, the idea that the Republicans alone are legitimate holders of power is the overriding belief of all Republicans at all levels of power.
Any dissenters like Liz Cheney are swept from power and replaced by loyal party apparatchiks.
Its entirely reasonable to expect them, if they gain a House majority, to refuse to certify any Democratic election victory.Report
I find it amusing how much the GOP lambasted the old Communist Russia for doing such things to those seen as dis-loyal to the party.Report
No, that’s not what the Communists did to people disloyal to the party. They would imprison people, torture them, maybe kill them and maybe their families too for not reporting them. And they’re doing it right now, this very moment, a bit south of Miami. Real human beings are being killed today for disagreeing with the party.Report
You are right, the communists went way further than what the GOP is doing (because doing so in the US is still illegal for a party, even on in political control), but regardless, the point was that the party brooks no dissent.Report
Again, I think it was more the murder of the dissenters that bothered people than the dislike of the dissenters. But can you even say that the Democrats are more favorable to dissent than the Republicans? Would Manchin be receiving better treatment than Cheney if he were unneeded? Has Hillary Clinton spoken about Biden the way Romney speaks about Trump? Was Gabbard featured at the 2020 DNC? There would be hundreds of thousands (minimum) of new Democratic votes if they allowed wiggle room on abortion; have they done so?Report
The wiggle room on abortion is if you don’t like it, don’t get one.
As for the Dems, yes, as much as I find the woke liberal side to be engaging in similar “cast them out” kind of behavior, the mainstream political class isn’t (yet). Maybe it’s for the pragmatic reason you give, or perhaps because being that way will undermine the ‘big tent’ politics the Dems tout, but regardless, they still tolerate dissent.
Also, my criticism was aimed at GOP directly because they, once upon a time, found that the communists unwillingness to tolerate political dissent to be such a very important criticism of those communists.Report
I’m glad you’re ok with not coercing abortions, but again, that’s something that the communists actually do that people don’t like about them. It’s those kinds of willful acts of violence that put the sting in the intolerance. My grandmom couldn’t tolerate cigarette smoke, but she killed fewer people than the Cuban government is killing today. That’s the problem. That’s what gets people upset. You can picture that Republicans would kill people they disagree with, but that doesn’t happen.Report
You are losing the thread here, Pinky.
It’s not about killing, it’s about rejecting dissent, being intolerant of dissent.
Down that path is Cuba.Report
Would Manchin be receiving better treatment than Cheney if he were unneeded?
He always has.
Has Hillary Clinton spoken about Biden the way Romney speaks about Trump?
Why should she? They are in broad agreement and Biden doesn’t have the character issues Trump did and does.Report
Trump planned a coup. The one Republican who objects to this lost her leadership position.
But BSDI.Report
More importantly, the difference between Republicans and Democrats is what Republicans say about themselves.
The existential crisis for Republicans, as outlined in the Flight 93 essay and subsequent Tucker Carlson themes is the very existence of Democrats.
Not anything that the Democrats are DOING, just their existence.
For example, the Democrats aren’t forcing anyone to have a sex change, just tolerate the existence of those who do.
All these memes about “this is the future that liberals want” have one thing in common, which is that conservatives are still free to go about their business as they please.
Those tee shirts saying “Better Russian Then Democrat!” illustrate this, that they would prefer a surrender of America to a hostile foreign tyrant, than allow Democrats win an election.
Democrats themselves, their very existence, is the enemy for Republicans.Report
My issue is so important than it must be used as a litmus test on whether you are allowed to have office. If I do this long enough, everyone who is in office with agree with me on my issue. That’s how things are done.
Now doing that on “Trump won the election” is pretty nuts but that is what is happening.
A big reason that the GOP is backing the nuts on this issue is there’s no reason not to. Biden is in office. All of the prayer in the world won’t change that.
After that you have various GOP officials who are virtue signaling that they’ll never let an election be stolen again. To Team Red this is somewhere between meaningful and worthless. Team Blue spins this into meaning they won’t allow elections because Blue is always looking to make Red look bad.Report
[LF 3] I think the system will eventually disbar most of the lawyers who helped him so there’s that, and the military managed to not get dragged into this.Report
Neither of those things will deter Republicans, who as Chip points out, no longer view anyone else as having a legitimate claim to power.Report
The “deterrence” will be whether or not this is an election winner.
Most elections are won by turning out your base, most of what is going on is that. However my expectation is what they’re doing is nasty enough that the (rare) middle won’t reward them.
BSDI.Report
“BSDI”
True, although it’s a bit of a chicken and egg quandary. I suppose we could say it started with Bush v Gore, although the Dem voices who decided Bush wasn’t legit were a minority, if noisy. The GOP, however, dialed that attitude up to 11 with Trump, so I can understand why avowed Dems find the GOP to losing their legitimacy (I’m not convinced the center is at the same place, though).Report
I wonder, and I haven’t really thought about this, so I’m merely wondering, whether you can trace this back to the GOP reaction to the two presidential elections in the 90s, both of which ended with a Democrat winning with a mere plurality. I know the Republicans repeatedly questioned the legitimacy of Clinton’s presidency, and also adopted the 50%+1 strategy, as a result of those elections. Seems like you could probably trace a pretty straight line.Report
1992 was 43%.
I remember getting into arguments over whether this was a “mandate”.
“It was a mandate *AGAINST* Bush!”, I was told. “That’s not what a mandate is!”, I argued back.
“I can’t believe how dumb this argument is”, I remember thinking.
How young I was.Report
1992 is the closest we have to an awesome thought experiment around using the French Model for Presidential Elections.
That is… three candidates getting significant pluralities with a 3rd party receiving 19% of the popular vote.
Most analysis suggests Clinton would have won… but, since we didn’t actually have a proper run-off system, I’m not entirely sure how the votes would have been allocated given that sort of option.
That is, without RCV or a meat space runoff option, we can’t really assess what the ‘rational’ voter would have done.
Moral? End first past the post.Report
I think we might really need to as elections get more contentious.Report
Bush claimed a mandate in. 2000 and he *lost*.Report
I guess that makes it okay?Report
Every president claims a mandate. You might as well object to people who think their kids are good-looking.Report
I think you misunderstand what the disagreement was.
It was not over whether Clinton did or did not claim a mandate.Report
What then?Report
Can you imagine Trump claiming a mandate in 2016?
I imagine you can.
Can you imagine someone, perhaps someone on this very board, saying “Trump has a mandate!”?
I imagine you can.
Can you imagine arguing against this person and saying “Trump doesn’t have a mandate!”?
I imagine you can.
Now, can you imagine this person on this board saying “It was a mandate *AGAINST* Clinton!”?
If you can, then I think we’ll understand the argument I had a million years ago.
(Now imagine this person telling you “Every president claims a mandate.”)Report
It was a mandate to destroy the deep state*, personified by Hillary, so why not?
* which means everyone in government with a sense of responsibility, a regard for procedure, or belief in the rule of law, but that’s another discussion.Report
Well, if you can understand how someone might say to someone claiming that Trump had a mandate something to the effect of “but he didn’t win the popular vote!”, then I think you can still grasp some of the disagreement.
If you cannot imagine how someone might argue that Hillary Clinton got more votes… well. Yeah. Maybe the way I was thinking about that was pretty impenetrable.Report
A full-fledged Trumpist thinks Trump won the polar vote in 2016.
A slightly-less-than-full-fledged one thinks he won if you leave off places that don’t matter, like California.Report
Do you see how someone might not agree with someone who thought that?
Or do you see those views and immediately think “every president claims to have won the popular vote!”Report
Mike, maybe you ought to re-phrase the question so we can get something that looks something like an answer.Report
CJ, I stand by my original point:
Clinton fans were claiming in 1993 that Clinton had a mandate. (Yes, “not all Clinton fans”.) I argued against some of them. “It was a not-Bush mandate!” was one of the dumb arguments given in defense of Clinton having a mandate.
This argument does not cease to be a dumb argument just because Bush (or Trump!) fans used it too.
You’d think that Bush (or Trump!) fans using it would underline how dumb the argument was.Report
Well, only you can say what your “original point” was supposed to be, and if you say that’s what it was I suppose we have to believe you. The rest of us had to work with what you actually wrote.Report
My original comment was here.
I guess people will have to decide for themselves if a dumb argument stops being dumb when Bush fans (and Trump fans!) adopt it.Report
That was your original comment, all right, but the issue was your original point. Figuring out your point, or whether you have one, is half the fun around here.Report
It was doing a “yes/and” to Chris’s comment, which it was a reply to.Report
Mine are.Report
The difference, of course, being that kids are real, and that mandates are not. You either have a solid enough majority in both houses to tell the XINOs to go fish themselves, or you don’t.Report
I think the GOP didn’t like Clinton, and would have loved to have gotten him bounced via impeachment, but I don’t recall them questioning his legitimacy to the office or the results of the vote.
But I was just becoming politically aware back then, so perhaps I missed something.Report
Traditionally, Republicans would typically turn on their own, and Bush had just broken his “no new taxes” pledge, so that’s how it played out.Report
It was definitely a thing, though perhaps not on the scale and with the impact that we see now. It was a rhetorical ploy to undermine any legislative agenda (though I think it’s used that way in Biden’s case as well, there are more sinister undertones now compared to then).Report
I think a lot of those undertones are (hang on, gotta find where I put this particular horse carcass…) the result of both parties apparent zeal for an imperial presidency/unitary executive. This idea that the winner of the POTUS somehow confers a ‘mandate’ of the people is a delusion. Now, getting solid majorities in both the house and senate and getting the presidency could be seen as a mandate, but not even Biden has a mandate.
Anyway, when the office has so much power, and even worse, is seen as such a politically important prize, the need by the opposition to de-legitimize whoever holds the office is proportionally great.Report
Well, remember that less than a year after that election you had people saying 9/11 was an inside job, so we know exactly what the move from election frustration to delusion looks like.Report
Hardly. It’s just Bush v Gore was 21 years ago, so most of us remember it.
I expect serious efforts to delegitimize your political opponent started right after Washington (George was very popular with everyone). I remember some very old political advise on how to create the idea that your opponent has had sex with a pig.
Even if we want limit efforts to the last 5 years we have things like a Supreme Court Justice being falsely accused multiple times of rape, and the usual na.zi/deathcamp/racist allegations.Report
Fair point.Report
Nope.
1) None of the democratic led states have tried, much less passed, and legislation to alter elections in such a way as to exclude Republicans. In fact Democratic led states have sought to broaden voter participation.
2) During 8 years of Obama’s Presidency, and for all the months Biden has been in office, Republican politicians have openly stated their intentions to not act in a bipartisan fashion even on legislative questions that have overwhelming national and thus bipartisan support. Republicans have voted in a way to back these statements up.
3) Al Gore and Hillary Clinton both conceded their losses. Trump has yet to do so and many prominent Republican politicians still refuse to say publicly that Biden was legitimately elected (even when they eat dinner at the White House.)
4) Republican politicians believe they can not be reelected without openly supporting Trump, regardless of whether that looses them Independents in the general. They clearly have no desire to court Democrats.Report
Do Gore and Clinton still maintain that they lost? They’ve made some statements that implied the opposite.Report
They have spoken about the situations and pointed out – correctly I believe – that those situations were indicative of things going wrong generally in our democracy. But at the time they conceded and quite publicly, and neither of them has gone back to campaign style rallies to raise money all the while repeating a lie that the election was stolen via massive and continuing fraud.Report
Bhahahahaha. Gore tried to use the courts to overturn the election when he lost by the normal process. The Supreme Court was correct in ruling 7-2 that you’re not allowed to count likely Blue votes extra special. They should have stopped there since there was no way Gore could win even in theory at that point.
Now what Trump has done is past what Gore did and deep into insanity so there’s that.
And we’ll see BSDI the moment we get a Team Red president.Report
If memory serves, we had one recently.Report
London paid out for Gore winning FloridaReport
LF4: it does seem strange, and I wonder if there WERE some instances of “brushing scam” and similar mixed in with all the forgotten orders.
I remember the news story and how first people thought it was some kind of really nefarious doings (trying to poison US farming with engineered seeds) that eventually defaulted to “oh it’s some kind of a scam to SEO-promote their business” and it seems really….anticlimactic….to learn that it was probably (mostly?) people who ordered a bunch of stuff randomly online and forgot about it because international shipping was so snarled up it took months?
I dunno. I get having “pandemic brain,” I am still suffering from it (I have to keep extensive lists of what I need to do, never had to do that before), but the couple times I ordered something that didn’t show up until weeks and weeks later, and I didn’t remember exactly what it was (happened a few times with books, the package would show up and I’d be like “what was this now?”), as soon as I opened it I was like “oh yeah, i remember ordering that.” It still happens with books I pre-order from Bookshop; in some cases it’ll be six months before it comes out and I’ll have forgotten I ordered it until it shows up.
I mean, maybe it wasn’t a massive coordinated scam operation or anything, but…..it still seems odd that it was seeds, and that it was that many people (And that it was through Amazon? I would never think of ordering seeds from them. Burpee’s or Gurney’s, yes. But maybe there were bad enough shortages last year? I didn’t mail order any seeds from Burpee’s last year, in fact, I usually buy seeds locally from a store)
also wonder if there’s some overlap with LF5 on this.Report
I’m probably reading too much into this, but we are the only ones out of 70 responses who remarked on LF5 at all. I also wonder if there is any overlap between LF4 and LF5 although I am inclined to ascribe it to generalized Amazon degradation as an e-marketplace.
Amazon is a mess for customers! It is a schlock shop for almost everything except… books! Maybe that isn’t such a bad thing for consumers, even if the shine wears off for $AMZN speculators.
By the way, I too like Schirmer classics as a publisher of sheet music! I visited your bloggy home and browsed your right margin wish list 🙂Report
So this is good, that Illinois passed a law prohibiting police from lying to minors during interrogations.
What is disturbing is the first line of the article, that Illinois is the first state to pass such a law.Report
Ah, the Irish Catholic employment act they call it.Report
“SB 2122 was supported not only by individuals who themselves falsely confessed to crimes, but also by the state’s Chiefs of Police, the Illinois State’s Attorneys’ Association, and the Office of Cook County State’s Attorney Kim Foxx.”
Color me very surprised (except for Foxx).Report
It’s because lying to children during interrogation leads more reliably to false confessions. And those false confessions get overturned often enough to cost the state money and make leadership look like a bunch of monsters.
I mean, leadership could have just said, “Hey, officers, don’t lie to minors during interrogation.”, but apparently, asking leadership to, you know, lead, is just too much, so you gotta pass a law.Report
That may be true, but I’ll never doubt the nefarious intent of those 2 groups.Report
LF3: There aren’t really many good options for the Democratic Party here. No democracy really developed a good solution when one of their big parties and their voters moved in a totally illiberal direction. It forces everybody else to work together in unstable coalitions. Politicians are unsure whether outright denouncing tens of millions of voters will work or whether they should just speak the plain truth and hope it sticks.Report
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collapse_of_the_Third_RepublicReport