This is one issue in the culture wars that always seemed strange to me. I will come off with two biases:
1. I dislike golf and don't understand the appeal.
2. I was brought up by parents who despise country clubs (for being elitist) and this belief rubbed off on me. For anyone who thinks this is sour grapes, I grew up very comfortably in the upper-middle class
So I don't see this as a great victory for equality. You still need a lot of dough to gain membership to Augusta, now rich women of the 1 percent can join on their own instead of simply being guests. Let me cheer with a sarcastic Yea!
I just meant to show it as an example of the mentality. The experience seems more common than this one guy and it should be noted that the church said it would modify but not abandon the idiotic practice.
Dreher is a very hardened culture warrior who says something interesting every now and then (he seems to have some concepts of economic justice and fairness) but is largely a religious theocrat to me.
Then again, I like a lot of the shocking art that gets the paleo and social cons all riled up.
I will give you that the RNC is trying to get the guy to step down. But Akin looks like he is trying to survive by appealing to Evangelicals and being contrite and humble. My guess is that this will work.
I suspect that we live in similar bubbles. This is the same bubble that lead Pauline Kael to make her famous quip about Nixon being reelected in 1972. The only people I know from Evagenlical households fled the scene and are no secular or wiccan sometimes. Two converted two Judaism. The Christians I knew growing up in the suburbs of New York tended to be Irish or Italian Catholics with the random Mainline Protestant here and there (usually Quakers or Unitarians). The African-American churches seem to be the most active ones in the Bay Area and our fundies exist far into the East Bay or keep very quiet. In other words, all the Christians I know are still liberal-Democrats for the most part. The Romney supporter I know is a woman from high school who works on Wall Street.
To be fair, the people mentioned in the Forbes article live in similar bubbles.
There was an article a few weeks ago in the New Republic about a youth pastor in Pennsylvania being charged with kidnapping. The columnist wrote that this is a mock exercise done in Evangelical circles to make sure kids pick their faith over life when threatened. The author of the column grew up in Evangelical circles and wrote that they truly believe they are constantly under siege.
People know enough about their ideas, ideals, and policy preferences in order to align then with general labels like conservative, liberal, libertarian, socialist, Democratic, Republican, etc.
However, most people, even regular and loyal party voters do not pay attention to politics with a hardcore zeal because the normal aspects of life get in the way. The people who pay attention are a very small group. The 24/7 news networks are only being watched by a few million people each. Some of the talk radio guys get listenership in the tens of millions. I have no idea about the blogosphere and audience numbers.
Knowing about the difference between negative and positive liberty requires more than a casual interest in politics and philosophy. It is probably 200-level university philosophy.
This is not to say that I think it is bad that people cannot talk about positive or negative liberty. It would be nice but is not a requirement.
In that, once someone wins a primary or election, he or she has the sole right to relinquish the victory.
This seems like common sense. Akin won the primary fair and square, it seems like it should not be up to a political party to deny him a space on the ballot because they he is an offensive asshole and idiot.
This goes for all parties. This is just an aspect of democracy.
I think it is not recognized because there are a lot of people who might identify as liberal or libertarian and not be able to talk about the difference between positive and negative liberty.
That being said, the Internet is changing the way of scandals. Hence the quick sackings of Anothony Weiner and the Republican Congressman from upstate for putting cheesecake photos on-line and trying to flirt with young women on various dating sites.
In a pre-internet age, Akin's comments would probably not have become a national controversy or it would have taken much longer to reach this stage.
I also think there are a lot of people who would make the points on why businesses should have the right to discriminate and not have any idea on the differences between positive and negative liberty.
Not here. The League is largely a smart bunch. I don't agree with every commentor obviously but most people here debate well and are well-read.
There are still some jeering partisan hacks though. No place or cause is so noble as to not attract dunderheads.
I think that the whole debate between positive and negative liberty is rather important and tend to see things through a more positive liberty lens.
There is a need for both positive and negative liberties and one of my problems with the current American system is that we have not really found language to support positive liberty.
In the end though, you are right, I care much more about the rights of minorities to participate fully in economic and civil life than I do care about the rights of bigots to run their businesses in ways that conform with their prejudiced and illogical world view.
Do you live in Japan and hanging around Harajuku on Sundays?
More seriously, I know what you mean, there does seem to be a subculture that goes along with a rockabilly look to varying degrees. I even think there is a chain of stores called "Bettie Page" that sells 1950s styled dresses.
I've wondered about this and had it explained to me that the dresses from the 1950s are good for women with hips and curves.
That being said you bring up an interesting issue about how much of embracing the aesthetics of an era or culture is also am implicit embracing of the worst parts of an era.
My mom hates Mad Men and thinks it glamorizes all of the racism and sexism of the 1960s especially in the pre-hippie parts. My friends who were born way after the 1960s seem to embrace the show and aesthetic. I've never been to one but have seen lots of photos of Mad Men parties on the web at sites like OKCupid. Women seem to think it is a selling point to show pictures of their Mad Men parties.
I personally find it interesting that a lot of hipsters are now embracing tattoo subculture because hipsters tend to be progressive but many of the mid-century tattoo artists that they lionize like Sailor Jerry were far-right reactionaries.
I thin you are still right. Republicans do embrace their crazies. Kevin Drum thinks that this will blow over and I have just seen reports saying that Akin will not stand down.
You can go very far on the Republican crazy train but every now and then, there will be someone who exceeds the bounds of all decency in the name of their crazy. Akin might be that person.
As a non-libertarian, I think you are right that many of the libertarians on this site are open to criticism of the field. Or at least willing to try and answer pointed questions that seek to criticize libertarianism as a philosophy.
However, I think that the libertarian movement does still have a reputation as being "Republicans who like to smoke pot". In short, they are very libertarian when it comes to their own personal interests and likes but not so libertarian when it comes to liberties that are more aimed at non-white men. Hence the always bone-headed talk among some libertarians on the right's of business owners to practice discrimination while not understanding the right to be a minority and fully-participate in civil and economic life without fear of bigotry, discrimination, or segregation.
There are times when some libertarians seem to eager to defend the rights of bigots to practice their bigotry in ways that matter.
The other way to view the use of the word "legitimate" is that he is going back to the day's of old-English common law when a woman had to do everything in her power (and beyond) to prevent the non-consenting sex from happening. She also had to be as pure as driven snow.
On “The Alpha-Alpha Male Strategy”
Have you ever seen the guys at the National Review?
They hardly count as alpha males. Most of them seem like the nerds in high school who worshiped the alpha males.
On “A Tee of Their Own”
People seem not to get the boycott and change part about free speech and association.
"
Agreed
"
This is one issue in the culture wars that always seemed strange to me. I will come off with two biases:
1. I dislike golf and don't understand the appeal.
2. I was brought up by parents who despise country clubs (for being elitist) and this belief rubbed off on me. For anyone who thinks this is sour grapes, I grew up very comfortably in the upper-middle class
So I don't see this as a great victory for equality. You still need a lot of dough to gain membership to Augusta, now rich women of the 1 percent can join on their own instead of simply being guests. Let me cheer with a sarcastic Yea!
On “Come Pop My Bubble”
I just meant to show it as an example of the mentality. The experience seems more common than this one guy and it should be noted that the church said it would modify but not abandon the idiotic practice.
"
I have the same feelings about Michelle Bachmann.
Dreher is a very hardened culture warrior who says something interesting every now and then (he seems to have some concepts of economic justice and fairness) but is largely a religious theocrat to me.
Then again, I like a lot of the shocking art that gets the paleo and social cons all riled up.
On “Leading Missouri Senate Candidate to Women: If you get pregnant, you weren’t really raped”
I will give you that the RNC is trying to get the guy to step down. But Akin looks like he is trying to survive by appealing to Evangelicals and being contrite and humble. My guess is that this will work.
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/08/akins-rape-ad.html
On “Come Pop My Bubble”
I suspect that we live in similar bubbles. This is the same bubble that lead Pauline Kael to make her famous quip about Nixon being reelected in 1972. The only people I know from Evagenlical households fled the scene and are no secular or wiccan sometimes. Two converted two Judaism. The Christians I knew growing up in the suburbs of New York tended to be Irish or Italian Catholics with the random Mainline Protestant here and there (usually Quakers or Unitarians). The African-American churches seem to be the most active ones in the Bay Area and our fundies exist far into the East Bay or keep very quiet. In other words, all the Christians I know are still liberal-Democrats for the most part. The Romney supporter I know is a woman from high school who works on Wall Street.
To be fair, the people mentioned in the Forbes article live in similar bubbles.
There was an article a few weeks ago in the New Republic about a youth pastor in Pennsylvania being charged with kidnapping. The columnist wrote that this is a mock exercise done in Evangelical circles to make sure kids pick their faith over life when threatened. The author of the column grew up in Evangelical circles and wrote that they truly believe they are constantly under siege.
http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/105588/why-would-church-youth-group-pretend-kidnap-teens
On “Leading Missouri Senate Candidate to Women: If you get pregnant, you weren’t really raped”
"Gut feeling" is probably fairly accurate.
People know enough about their ideas, ideals, and policy preferences in order to align then with general labels like conservative, liberal, libertarian, socialist, Democratic, Republican, etc.
However, most people, even regular and loyal party voters do not pay attention to politics with a hardcore zeal because the normal aspects of life get in the way. The people who pay attention are a very small group. The 24/7 news networks are only being watched by a few million people each. Some of the talk radio guys get listenership in the tens of millions. I have no idea about the blogosphere and audience numbers.
Knowing about the difference between negative and positive liberty requires more than a casual interest in politics and philosophy. It is probably 200-level university philosophy.
This is not to say that I think it is bad that people cannot talk about positive or negative liberty. It would be nice but is not a requirement.
"
Is there a sort of property right issue?
In that, once someone wins a primary or election, he or she has the sole right to relinquish the victory.
This seems like common sense. Akin won the primary fair and square, it seems like it should not be up to a political party to deny him a space on the ballot because they he is an offensive asshole and idiot.
This goes for all parties. This is just an aspect of democracy.
"
I agree.
I think it is not recognized because there are a lot of people who might identify as liberal or libertarian and not be able to talk about the difference between positive and negative liberty.
"
That being said, the Internet is changing the way of scandals. Hence the quick sackings of Anothony Weiner and the Republican Congressman from upstate for putting cheesecake photos on-line and trying to flirt with young women on various dating sites.
In a pre-internet age, Akin's comments would probably not have become a national controversy or it would have taken much longer to reach this stage.
"
My issue is that they only seem to do it once maximum damage has been caused or something close to it.
But to be fair, perhaps this always happens in party politics. The Democrats have at least one similar Akin story in Bob Toricelli in 2002.
How long was McCarthy able to damage the lives of countless innocents before being shut up?
"
James,
I also think there are a lot of people who would make the points on why businesses should have the right to discriminate and not have any idea on the differences between positive and negative liberty.
Not here. The League is largely a smart bunch. I don't agree with every commentor obviously but most people here debate well and are well-read.
There are still some jeering partisan hacks though. No place or cause is so noble as to not attract dunderheads.
"
1. I never made any comments on my stance on whether drugs should be legal or not.
2. The disproportionate punishments for possession of crack and other "minority" drugs were created during the 1980s under Saint Ronnie (trademarked).
"
I think that the whole debate between positive and negative liberty is rather important and tend to see things through a more positive liberty lens.
There is a need for both positive and negative liberties and one of my problems with the current American system is that we have not really found language to support positive liberty.
In the end though, you are right, I care much more about the rights of minorities to participate fully in economic and civil life than I do care about the rights of bigots to run their businesses in ways that conform with their prejudiced and illogical world view.
"
Do you live in Japan and hanging around Harajuku on Sundays?
More seriously, I know what you mean, there does seem to be a subculture that goes along with a rockabilly look to varying degrees. I even think there is a chain of stores called "Bettie Page" that sells 1950s styled dresses.
I've wondered about this and had it explained to me that the dresses from the 1950s are good for women with hips and curves.
That being said you bring up an interesting issue about how much of embracing the aesthetics of an era or culture is also am implicit embracing of the worst parts of an era.
My mom hates Mad Men and thinks it glamorizes all of the racism and sexism of the 1960s especially in the pre-hippie parts. My friends who were born way after the 1960s seem to embrace the show and aesthetic. I've never been to one but have seen lots of photos of Mad Men parties on the web at sites like OKCupid. Women seem to think it is a selling point to show pictures of their Mad Men parties.
I personally find it interesting that a lot of hipsters are now embracing tattoo subculture because hipsters tend to be progressive but many of the mid-century tattoo artists that they lionize like Sailor Jerry were far-right reactionaries.
"
I thin you are still right. Republicans do embrace their crazies. Kevin Drum thinks that this will blow over and I have just seen reports saying that Akin will not stand down.
You can go very far on the Republican crazy train but every now and then, there will be someone who exceeds the bounds of all decency in the name of their crazy. Akin might be that person.
"
As a non-libertarian, I think you are right that many of the libertarians on this site are open to criticism of the field. Or at least willing to try and answer pointed questions that seek to criticize libertarianism as a philosophy.
However, I think that the libertarian movement does still have a reputation as being "Republicans who like to smoke pot". In short, they are very libertarian when it comes to their own personal interests and likes but not so libertarian when it comes to liberties that are more aimed at non-white men. Hence the always bone-headed talk among some libertarians on the right's of business owners to practice discrimination while not understanding the right to be a minority and fully-participate in civil and economic life without fear of bigotry, discrimination, or segregation.
There are times when some libertarians seem to eager to defend the rights of bigots to practice their bigotry in ways that matter.
"
You are going to be in for a very long wait.
"
Yup
"
The other way to view the use of the word "legitimate" is that he is going back to the day's of old-English common law when a woman had to do everything in her power (and beyond) to prevent the non-consenting sex from happening. She also had to be as pure as driven snow.
"
"They might be idiots but they are our idiots"
"
In Republican world, anyone not with a trademarked R next to their name is hard left.
"
This feels like it should be an Onion headline.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.