I am not sure how I feel about Haidt's work. His whole "Conservatives have a more full way of looking at things" strikes me as being a good way for a liberal to get lucrative speaking gigs.
While you might not be concerned, plenty of more moralistic employers are concerned.
IIRC from my employment law class, there are four states with "lifestyle protection" laws that prevent employers from firing employees for lawful out of work activity. In all other U.S. jurisdictions, firing for any out of work activity is fair game. At-Will really does mean At-Will for the most part. Any employee can be fired for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all.
I am generally opposed to this. I am more for Just Cause firing (aka as good reasons only) and will easily and without a fight concede that Violentacrez easily falls into Just Cause termination. So I recant and apologize for any previous defense.
I feel sorry for his victims and hope they sue and win (possibly even from reddit). I feel sorry for his wife because she is very sick. Though according to the gawker story she seems to have full knowledge of his trolling activties which gives me pasue. I think her on-line name was not_so_violentacrez.
No it isn't okay and should result in some kind of civil lawsuit. Perhaps even against the employer if said harassment was done during work hours and with work resources. Then the guy could fired.
Allowing employer's to fire for any off-work reason is tricky and often wrong. Perhaps sometimes an employer needs to and with good cause but I am trying to think of a system that protects most people,
How would you write a law that allows an employer to fire someone like this idiot while protecting another employee who belongs to an S and M type group/club or some kind of transgresive performance collective?
Though I have to admit, I understand and empathize with anyone who would be creeped out by violentacrez and not want to work near him. I would fire him before telling my innocent employees to deal with the situation if I were the boss.
The story about the police officer from Brighton is a false equivalence. He was abusing his power as an officer of the state and should be punished for that. This is different than a police officer making a sextape with his consenting wife or girlfriend.
I am not supporting Bustch in the comments. I think the man is a pathetic loser.
However, there is a serious issue about whether an employer should be able to fire an employee for off-work legal activity. Violentacrez is a horrible example though. The cop who made a sex tape with his wife is a better example. There is nothing illegal about making a sex tape with another consenting adult. There is nothing illegal about putting this on the Internet. Why should an employer be allowed to get uptight about this and fire said employee? I say this as a serious issue of labor rights. I have also heard of conservative employers who fired employees for getting divorced.
There is nothing I find supportable or laudable about the dude. However if I am going to be a good civil libertarian, I can't just make it about activities or people that I support and like.
I don't know if it is new but I agree with your penultimate paragraph points on it being anti-free speech and why. Perhaps we notice it a lot more. I am very anti-Meme for the reasons you describe.
Perhaps but I refuse to say that "everything is political" as a way of justifying bad and asocial behavior. Just because people have a unique gift for making everything and anything political does not mean that everything and anything is political.
The guy is an ass. Most trolls are pompous asses with no sense of compassion or empathy. This is an interview with a troll:
Why does he get to decide that people take things too seriously and that being earnest is a major bummer? That is a pretty damned arrogant opinion of oneself as an arbitrator of what should and should not be on the internet.
I am also generally of the belief that people should not get fired for their non-work activities as long as it does not hurt their job performance.
However, this guy's activities were not political. Riling and being a jerk are not political activities.
I feel sorry about his wife but I have a hard time feeling compassion for violentacrez. He is a coward. He seems to have learned nothing from his actions.
1. You shouldn't read Gawker and expect the Gray Lady. You should read Gawker and expect the Post or Daily News. Not all journalism needs to be a stunning expose like the Pentagon Papers or Watergate. I think of Chen's story like being nuts and bolts local news on crime or the tavern owner who sells watered down beer to make a higher profit.What sort of news should an on-line magazine (that is largely concerned with on-line events) report?
2. Gakwer is a creature of the Internet. Trolls are a creature of the Internet. This is the kind of story that the Internet needs in order to become more civilized and welcoming for all people. The guy is rather pathetic with everything he does. His "I just want to rile people up" stance is also sad. Why rile people up? Why is this his right?
As you mentioned above, there are still plenty of people who want the Internet to be the Wild West variant when it was largely a sub-culture thing. Brutsch is one of these people. However, the web is changing. Most of us are not trolls and do not find his antics amusing.
3. What sort of legislation do think Obama will propose to shut down trolls?
I am in that camp as well but speech like all actions comes with consequences. The problem with the people like Michael Brutsch is that they want to remove the consequences part. I am not talking about legal/criminal consequences for speech (of which there should be none) but they put the burden on everyone else. We are too sensitive, can't take a joke, etc. He smacked of privilege and not realizing how offensive, hurtful, and vile his speech is. People who complain about "political correctness" often are really complaining about treating minorities with decency and dignity.
Also Mr. Chen's free speech rights as a journalist include outing trolls.
Rocky Anderson was a progressive mayor of Salt Lake City. He was featured on an episode of This American Life because he did a townhall debate with Sean Hannity.
I am 94 percent with Jill Stein, 83 percent with Barack Obama, 71 percent with Rocky Anderson, 3 percent with Mitt, 58 percent with my fellow Californians, and 54 percent with the nation over all.
I wonder how I stack as compared to my native New York.
I have been thinking about the gawker story a lot since I first read it a few days ago.
Trolling fascinates/perplexes me. I think it is a problem that goes deeper than the famous Penny Arcade cartoon which said anonymity turns an average person into a complete asshole. There is an overall problem with the guy's worldview and how he just likes to "rile people up". I've been known to ask provocative questions but there is never an intent of malice. I am not trying to ruin someone's day. I have also fallen victim to troll-bait before.
An overwhelming majority of people who write comments to the Internet are not trolls even if they write more passionately and hyperbolically than they would in real life. However, the general tone of most internet comments is a very low-grade sarcasm. A perpetual "this is the sound of the world's smallest violin". Plenty of people love snark but decry trolls. I wonder if if this low-burn but constant sarcasm enables and empowers trolls because the standards of sincerity on the Internet are often low.
Oh get off it. Plenty of people loved him just fine. Did he turn off some people? Probably. Did a lot of people like him and thought he won the debate, also yes. Did he excite the base of a party you clearly despise? Also yes.
You are about one of the least intellectually honest hacks I have ever seen. At least many liberals/progressives/Democrats realized that Obama performed poorly in the first debate.
There is no such honesty in the Republican Party.
This film footage of FDR has been on youtube for a while. I've seen it tossed about various progressive blogs and groups on the net. Sometimes sliced with Romney, sometimes as a standalone.
The facebook group "Being Liberal" also uses FDR as their avatar.
I agree with the video but I wonder if it also represents something broader in socio-political culture. Are (presumably) younger liberals trying to revive the mantle of Roosevelt and make him a counterforce to Saint Ronnie of the Right? I wonder. It could be an interesting tactic.
I note the irony of someone with my username making the point :) Or at least the semi-self serving nature. Hey I'm a trendsetter.
The University of Pittsburgh has more in common with the University of Michigan, William and Mary, and other public ivies than it does with Southeastern Dakota State. There are state schools and then there are the "public Ivies". I am not saying the state schools are necessarily bad but some of them are in a different league.
Also different people need different educations. I went to a small, liberal arts college and needed to. I would be lost in a world of 500 person lectures just like many of my friends in law school freaked out when I told them that I was one of nine people in my track at grad school for three years. They also freaked out that every class at my undergrad was basically a de facto seminar. Most of my classmates in undergrad probably felt at home among peers for the first time during their time at the school.
On “Violenceacrez, Reddit and Abuse of Power”
I am not sure how I feel about Haidt's work. His whole "Conservatives have a more full way of looking at things" strikes me as being a good way for a liberal to get lucrative speaking gigs.
"
While you might not be concerned, plenty of more moralistic employers are concerned.
IIRC from my employment law class, there are four states with "lifestyle protection" laws that prevent employers from firing employees for lawful out of work activity. In all other U.S. jurisdictions, firing for any out of work activity is fair game. At-Will really does mean At-Will for the most part. Any employee can be fired for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason at all.
I am generally opposed to this. I am more for Just Cause firing (aka as good reasons only) and will easily and without a fight concede that Violentacrez easily falls into Just Cause termination. So I recant and apologize for any previous defense.
I feel sorry for his victims and hope they sue and win (possibly even from reddit). I feel sorry for his wife because she is very sick. Though according to the gawker story she seems to have full knowledge of his trolling activties which gives me pasue. I think her on-line name was not_so_violentacrez.
"
This is true. He deserved to be fired for that.
"
No it isn't okay and should result in some kind of civil lawsuit. Perhaps even against the employer if said harassment was done during work hours and with work resources. Then the guy could fired.
Allowing employer's to fire for any off-work reason is tricky and often wrong. Perhaps sometimes an employer needs to and with good cause but I am trying to think of a system that protects most people,
How would you write a law that allows an employer to fire someone like this idiot while protecting another employee who belongs to an S and M type group/club or some kind of transgresive performance collective?
"
Though I have to admit, I understand and empathize with anyone who would be creeped out by violentacrez and not want to work near him. I would fire him before telling my innocent employees to deal with the situation if I were the boss.
"
The story about the police officer from Brighton is a false equivalence. He was abusing his power as an officer of the state and should be punished for that. This is different than a police officer making a sextape with his consenting wife or girlfriend.
"
I am not supporting Bustch in the comments. I think the man is a pathetic loser.
However, there is a serious issue about whether an employer should be able to fire an employee for off-work legal activity. Violentacrez is a horrible example though. The cop who made a sex tape with his wife is a better example. There is nothing illegal about making a sex tape with another consenting adult. There is nothing illegal about putting this on the Internet. Why should an employer be allowed to get uptight about this and fire said employee? I say this as a serious issue of labor rights. I have also heard of conservative employers who fired employees for getting divorced.
There is nothing I find supportable or laudable about the dude. However if I am going to be a good civil libertarian, I can't just make it about activities or people that I support and like.
On “Learning to Fall Out of Love with Hate, Part 2: Violentacrez Loses His Job”
I feel sorry for his wife because she is seriously sick. I do not feel sorry for him
Though I really, really hope the story about the 19-year old stepdaughter is not true and just trolling.
If it is true then I don't know what to make of the entire family.
"
I don't know if it is new but I agree with your penultimate paragraph points on it being anti-free speech and why. Perhaps we notice it a lot more. I am very anti-Meme for the reasons you describe.
"
Perhaps but I refuse to say that "everything is political" as a way of justifying bad and asocial behavior. Just because people have a unique gift for making everything and anything political does not mean that everything and anything is political.
The guy is an ass. Most trolls are pompous asses with no sense of compassion or empathy. This is an interview with a troll:
http://billions-and-billions.com/2012/05/28/interview-with-a-troll/
Why does he get to decide that people take things too seriously and that being earnest is a major bummer? That is a pretty damned arrogant opinion of oneself as an arbitrator of what should and should not be on the internet.
"
Exactly.
I am still curious about what Prye means by "legislation" though.
"
I am also generally of the belief that people should not get fired for their non-work activities as long as it does not hurt their job performance.
However, this guy's activities were not political. Riling and being a jerk are not political activities.
I feel sorry about his wife but I have a hard time feeling compassion for violentacrez. He is a coward. He seems to have learned nothing from his actions.
"
Some thoughts:
1. You shouldn't read Gawker and expect the Gray Lady. You should read Gawker and expect the Post or Daily News. Not all journalism needs to be a stunning expose like the Pentagon Papers or Watergate. I think of Chen's story like being nuts and bolts local news on crime or the tavern owner who sells watered down beer to make a higher profit.What sort of news should an on-line magazine (that is largely concerned with on-line events) report?
2. Gakwer is a creature of the Internet. Trolls are a creature of the Internet. This is the kind of story that the Internet needs in order to become more civilized and welcoming for all people. The guy is rather pathetic with everything he does. His "I just want to rile people up" stance is also sad. Why rile people up? Why is this his right?
As you mentioned above, there are still plenty of people who want the Internet to be the Wild West variant when it was largely a sub-culture thing. Brutsch is one of these people. However, the web is changing. Most of us are not trolls and do not find his antics amusing.
3. What sort of legislation do think Obama will propose to shut down trolls?
"
I am in that camp as well but speech like all actions comes with consequences. The problem with the people like Michael Brutsch is that they want to remove the consequences part. I am not talking about legal/criminal consequences for speech (of which there should be none) but they put the burden on everyone else. We are too sensitive, can't take a joke, etc. He smacked of privilege and not realizing how offensive, hurtful, and vile his speech is. People who complain about "political correctness" often are really complaining about treating minorities with decency and dignity.
Also Mr. Chen's free speech rights as a journalist include outing trolls.
On “Undecided No More!”
And I am 98 percent Democratic, 97 percent Green, 31 percent Libertarian, and 1 percent Republican.
"
Rocky Anderson was a progressive mayor of Salt Lake City. He was featured on an episode of This American Life because he did a townhall debate with Sean Hannity.
"
I am 94 percent with Jill Stein, 83 percent with Barack Obama, 71 percent with Rocky Anderson, 3 percent with Mitt, 58 percent with my fellow Californians, and 54 percent with the nation over all.
I wonder how I stack as compared to my native New York.
On “Failing Out of Love with Hate, Part 1”
Good article.
I have been thinking about the gawker story a lot since I first read it a few days ago.
Trolling fascinates/perplexes me. I think it is a problem that goes deeper than the famous Penny Arcade cartoon which said anonymity turns an average person into a complete asshole. There is an overall problem with the guy's worldview and how he just likes to "rile people up". I've been known to ask provocative questions but there is never an intent of malice. I am not trying to ruin someone's day. I have also fallen victim to troll-bait before.
An overwhelming majority of people who write comments to the Internet are not trolls even if they write more passionately and hyperbolically than they would in real life. However, the general tone of most internet comments is a very low-grade sarcasm. A perpetual "this is the sound of the world's smallest violin". Plenty of people love snark but decry trolls. I wonder if if this low-burn but constant sarcasm enables and empowers trolls because the standards of sincerity on the Internet are often low.
On “Bubbly Joe Biden vs. Attila the Republican”
If Republicans can have their read meat, so can Democrats.
On “FDR On The Modern Republican Party”
I agree but these are the words we have.
I personally prefer calling them Jacobins
On “Bubbly Joe Biden vs. Attila the Republican”
Oh get off it. Plenty of people loved him just fine. Did he turn off some people? Probably. Did a lot of people like him and thought he won the debate, also yes. Did he excite the base of a party you clearly despise? Also yes.
You are about one of the least intellectually honest hacks I have ever seen. At least many liberals/progressives/Democrats realized that Obama performed poorly in the first debate.
There is no such honesty in the Republican Party.
On “FDR On The Modern Republican Party”
This film footage of FDR has been on youtube for a while. I've seen it tossed about various progressive blogs and groups on the net. Sometimes sliced with Romney, sometimes as a standalone.
The facebook group "Being Liberal" also uses FDR as their avatar.
I agree with the video but I wonder if it also represents something broader in socio-political culture. Are (presumably) younger liberals trying to revive the mantle of Roosevelt and make him a counterforce to Saint Ronnie of the Right? I wonder. It could be an interesting tactic.
I note the irony of someone with my username making the point :) Or at least the semi-self serving nature. Hey I'm a trendsetter.
On “The Challenge of Avoiding Student Debt”
The University of Pittsburgh has more in common with the University of Michigan, William and Mary, and other public ivies than it does with Southeastern Dakota State. There are state schools and then there are the "public Ivies". I am not saying the state schools are necessarily bad but some of them are in a different league.
Also different people need different educations. I went to a small, liberal arts college and needed to. I would be lost in a world of 500 person lectures just like many of my friends in law school freaked out when I told them that I was one of nine people in my track at grad school for three years. They also freaked out that every class at my undergrad was basically a de facto seminar. Most of my classmates in undergrad probably felt at home among peers for the first time during their time at the school.
On “Bubbly Joe Biden vs. Attila the Republican”
I think I proved my point on hackery below.
"
Are you being sincere or just mimicking the Republican propaganda point?
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.