In other words, minorities are damned with AA and damned without. In a world without affirmative action, minorities simply won't get the jobs regardless of their qualifications. In a world with AA, white racists will simply dismiss their hard work as simply being because of AA.
Its a problem even in countries where the main media producer is somewhat to completely immunized from commercial pressure. The BBC is relatively good with minority actors but most minority actors tend to be Black Britains or descendants of people of the Indian subcontinent. Chinese Britains and Jewish Britains are completely invisible. So you can change the Robin Hood or King Arthur mythos to includes Blacks and Moslems but you can't include Jews, who actually lived in England when the Robin Hood stories take place.
ND, doesn't big time college athletics like football at University of Michigan or Penn State and the party culture of the fraternities, constitute a traditon of sorts in the way that small liberal arts colleges have them?
ND noted that in the North East, where we grew up, the standard for upper-middle class parents seems to be public school from elementary to high school and private colleges and universities. Now that he lives in California, he notes that the West seems to be private school till college and then a state university. I think part of this is because the number of private colleges and universities are more numerous in the original thireen states and the Mid-West.
We could also adopt a more centralized educational system rather than have thousands of small and essentially self-governing systems, especially when compared to those in other countries. If the state government rather than the local school board determined each schools budget and was responsibile for all other aspects of running the school than the results would be more equitable. If the Department of Education ran the United States school system than things would be more equitable as well.
The Bible actually doesn't contain much about the afterlife, especially the Jewish part. The Bible also doesn't justify slavery or tyranny. It actually has many bad things to say about tyranny, note Samuel's warning on the evils of kings or Nathan's attack on David for what he did to Uriah simply because he could. It doesn't shrug at slavery either.
Jaybird, I agree with that arguments about liking something on a deeper level are silly and snobby but I don't think that relates to what ND and Chris are writing about. Take something like Star Wars. Lots of people like Star Wars but don't venture beyond the movies. A serious Star Wars fan can argue that he appreciates Star Wars on a deeper level than others because he reads the novels, writes fan fiction, and cosplays. Its about pop culture but the elitism is still there.
What good art does, as Chris points out is transform people. Sometimes a painting is so beautiful that it creates a feeling of rapture and ecstasy in the audience and can captivate them and hold them silent for hours. The other thing is that art as you said can be immoral or Chris said transgressive. This art transforms the audience by challenging the audience in their assumptions and getting them to think about things differently or question what they believe. Art doesn't necessarily have to be transgressive/immoral to do this though. Narcissus and Goldmund isn't particularly immoral or transgressive but it is challenging.
ND, if you want more people to appreciate high culture than you need to give them an accesible way to get it. Sink or swim isn't going to work as a method for getting people to like high culture. Middle-brow is one of the best ways to get people to appreciate high culture.
I agree that most people like representational art but its more the same reason that Picasso is more appreciated than Barney, its graspable. High-brow isn't a good thing in itself. At its worse, high-brow culture is incredibly obtuse and self-refrential in a way worse than geek culture.
Rufus F., I think that gentrification usually starts in the worse areas of town because property is cheaper and rents lower. Gives you more money to spend sprucing up the place.
ND and I were voracious readers since we were kids. Our reading tastes when we were younger were always at the geeky end. Fantasy and science fiction novels, comic books, and manga. We discovered literary fiction in high school and liked it but we were reading before that. Our tastes changed as we grew up.
James K, I can agree with that and thats why I'm opposed to intervention in Syria. It will only make a bad situation worse. I just can't bring myself to support non-intervention in all cases.
ND, I don't think that Piccaso is still considered shocking. Its just that Piccaso is abstract in a way thats more understandable to people than a lot of living artists are. More people can probable appreciate Piccaso than the Cre Master cycle.
Rufus F and ND, part of the problem is that education is very STEM focused and does a poor job at educating people about the arts and humanities. Very few people were exposed to literary fiction and other forms of high culture in a way that will endure them to it. The other problem is that high culture is demanding, it doesn't grant instant gratification. You need to listen quietly to the symphony, watch the play carefully, and read intensely. Genre fiction and other popular culture is more immediately fulfilling. You don't have to worry about whether something is symbolic or not. The level of attention needed is much less. In a culture that favors instant gratification, high culture is bound to be less than popular.
Vikram, it depends on the situation. Like Orwell said, pacifists who opposed WWII were fascists by default. War is always destructive but sometimes not participating in a war is just a call to let atrocities happen.
Rufus F., its probably something that can't be known for certain but it appears in mid-20th century America, a larger percentage of the population felt at least somewhat obligated to know high culture. How much the actually understood is debatable but the impulse to get some of it was there.
James, fair enough. Even though I'm against intervention in Syria, I'm also really not a fan that people who are arguing for intervention are doing so in bad faith or out of stupidity.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.
On “The Problem with the Public vs. Private Distinction in Education”
ND, the only people who find the chattering classes interesting are generally the chattering classes themselves.
On “Does Bigotry Pay in a Free Market? Absolutely.”
In other words, minorities are damned with AA and damned without. In a world without affirmative action, minorities simply won't get the jobs regardless of their qualifications. In a world with AA, white racists will simply dismiss their hard work as simply being because of AA.
On “Many of You Are Going to Hell”
Thats okay then. I'm one of the few people that think that the Tanakh is a much more morally compelling and interesting document than the NT.
On “Does Bigotry Pay in a Free Market? Absolutely.”
Its a problem even in countries where the main media producer is somewhat to completely immunized from commercial pressure. The BBC is relatively good with minority actors but most minority actors tend to be Black Britains or descendants of people of the Indian subcontinent. Chinese Britains and Jewish Britains are completely invisible. So you can change the Robin Hood or King Arthur mythos to includes Blacks and Moslems but you can't include Jews, who actually lived in England when the Robin Hood stories take place.
On “The Problem with the Public vs. Private Distinction in Education”
ND, doesn't big time college athletics like football at University of Michigan or Penn State and the party culture of the fraternities, constitute a traditon of sorts in the way that small liberal arts colleges have them?
"
ND noted that in the North East, where we grew up, the standard for upper-middle class parents seems to be public school from elementary to high school and private colleges and universities. Now that he lives in California, he notes that the West seems to be private school till college and then a state university. I think part of this is because the number of private colleges and universities are more numerous in the original thireen states and the Mid-West.
"
We could also adopt a more centralized educational system rather than have thousands of small and essentially self-governing systems, especially when compared to those in other countries. If the state government rather than the local school board determined each schools budget and was responsibile for all other aspects of running the school than the results would be more equitable. If the Department of Education ran the United States school system than things would be more equitable as well.
On “Many of You Are Going to Hell”
Judaism, when it refers to hell, sees hell as temporary place and nobody is in it for more than a year.
"
The Bible actually doesn't contain much about the afterlife, especially the Jewish part. The Bible also doesn't justify slavery or tyranny. It actually has many bad things to say about tyranny, note Samuel's warning on the evils of kings or Nathan's attack on David for what he did to Uriah simply because he could. It doesn't shrug at slavery either.
"
Yes. This might explain Judaism lacks of popularity. A lot of people like more accuracy when it comes to the afterlife.
"
Luckily, I'm from a religion whose position on the afterlife is that that there is something after death. Thats about it.
On “Defining Cultural Decline”
See my responses above.
"
Ethan Frome is a very good example of why you should write what you know.
"
Jaybird, I agree with that arguments about liking something on a deeper level are silly and snobby but I don't think that relates to what ND and Chris are writing about. Take something like Star Wars. Lots of people like Star Wars but don't venture beyond the movies. A serious Star Wars fan can argue that he appreciates Star Wars on a deeper level than others because he reads the novels, writes fan fiction, and cosplays. Its about pop culture but the elitism is still there.
What good art does, as Chris points out is transform people. Sometimes a painting is so beautiful that it creates a feeling of rapture and ecstasy in the audience and can captivate them and hold them silent for hours. The other thing is that art as you said can be immoral or Chris said transgressive. This art transforms the audience by challenging the audience in their assumptions and getting them to think about things differently or question what they believe. Art doesn't necessarily have to be transgressive/immoral to do this though. Narcissus and Goldmund isn't particularly immoral or transgressive but it is challenging.
"
dhex, so by opposing hemming their fellow man, your saying that the Juggalos are opposed to fine clothing?
"
ND, if you want more people to appreciate high culture than you need to give them an accesible way to get it. Sink or swim isn't going to work as a method for getting people to like high culture. Middle-brow is one of the best ways to get people to appreciate high culture.
I agree that most people like representational art but its more the same reason that Picasso is more appreciated than Barney, its graspable. High-brow isn't a good thing in itself. At its worse, high-brow culture is incredibly obtuse and self-refrential in a way worse than geek culture.
"
Rufus F., I think that gentrification usually starts in the worse areas of town because property is cheaper and rents lower. Gives you more money to spend sprucing up the place.
"
ND and I were voracious readers since we were kids. Our reading tastes when we were younger were always at the geeky end. Fantasy and science fiction novels, comic books, and manga. We discovered literary fiction in high school and liked it but we were reading before that. Our tastes changed as we grew up.
On “Jonathan Chait Shakes His Head at “Younger Liberal Friends””
James K, I can agree with that and thats why I'm opposed to intervention in Syria. It will only make a bad situation worse. I just can't bring myself to support non-intervention in all cases.
"
Murali, I don't think there is much to worry about Friedman being seen as the Orwell of our times.
On “Defining Cultural Decline”
ND, I don't think that Piccaso is still considered shocking. Its just that Piccaso is abstract in a way thats more understandable to people than a lot of living artists are. More people can probable appreciate Piccaso than the Cre Master cycle.
"
Rufus F and ND, part of the problem is that education is very STEM focused and does a poor job at educating people about the arts and humanities. Very few people were exposed to literary fiction and other forms of high culture in a way that will endure them to it. The other problem is that high culture is demanding, it doesn't grant instant gratification. You need to listen quietly to the symphony, watch the play carefully, and read intensely. Genre fiction and other popular culture is more immediately fulfilling. You don't have to worry about whether something is symbolic or not. The level of attention needed is much less. In a culture that favors instant gratification, high culture is bound to be less than popular.
On “Jonathan Chait Shakes His Head at “Younger Liberal Friends””
Vikram, it depends on the situation. Like Orwell said, pacifists who opposed WWII were fascists by default. War is always destructive but sometimes not participating in a war is just a call to let atrocities happen.
On “Defining Cultural Decline”
Rufus F., its probably something that can't be known for certain but it appears in mid-20th century America, a larger percentage of the population felt at least somewhat obligated to know high culture. How much the actually understood is debatable but the impulse to get some of it was there.
On “Jonathan Chait Shakes His Head at “Younger Liberal Friends””
James, fair enough. Even though I'm against intervention in Syria, I'm also really not a fan that people who are arguing for intervention are doing so in bad faith or out of stupidity.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.