I've got a basic understanding of the historical, religiously based movements, though I suspect youre far better read than me. That said I was raised Catholic and am still strangely involved in the Church in some ways despite personal agnosticism, also did a lot of Latin American history in undergrad where it was a major topic at times. What I'm talking about here isn't the same thing.
Stillwater's description below is much closer to the mark and pretty in line with how I see the movement. It isn't about helping people through personal actions and public policy. Its about establishing a new cultural morality police and using the political system to do it if possible. Maybe we need to come up with a better name for the movement, I'm just going by popular lexicon for internet debates.
Fwiw I can also tell you aren't who I'm talking about based on how you discuss the subject.
This response doesnt make sense to me. Nowhere did I say anyone should stop talking about anything or advocating for themselves. I said I don't think every idea or argument (or piece of art or other issue of any kind for that matter) should be viewed/assessed solely through the lense of identity politics. The movement thats defined itself by that approach to life is at best intellectually vapid and and at worst no less illberal than the old Christian right. If someone thinks I'm wrong and wants to talk about that on the merits I'm always happy to discuss. Conversely, if all we're doing is appeals to sex organs, skin color, or nebulous academic newspeak I find it to be a waste of time.
Maybe it's an issue of definitions. As I said above, I think 'social justice' is a pretty nebulous term, and it can mean different things to different people. I cited the example I did because what I'm talking about is a politics that puts identity above all else. That's what I hear when I hear or read 'social justice.' Maybe its not fair to use the 'sjw' internet lingo, and I have encountered people who say their politics are oriented in 'social justice' whose views overlap with mine in many respects. That said I don't think its how the the term is generally being used or understood. We've both said we are speaking from anecdotes/individual perspective, not hard evidence.
I can't tell you about the people you work with or organize with. All I can say is the face of what we're talking about are people who believe race or sex or who they are attracted to is the most important aspect of life, and all thoughts and ideas ought to be weighed and filtered based on the traits of who uttered them, not the merits. Contrary to your characterization, these are not people who advocate civil liberties. In fact they protest when the ACLU comes to teach people how they can more effectively exercise their rights. It's the opposite of what liberalism is supposed to be about.
I very much appreciate your perspective on this but I really don't have common ground with anyone putting identity before policy and civil liberties. In fact I want that perspective to lose and be marginalized before they harm efforts to improve society by allying themselves with other illiberal groups (see carceral feminism) or cause the rest of the polity to dismiss liberalism as the realm of spoiled rich kids who joined a cult in college.
I actually look at this differently. I think old fashion liberalism won on gay marriage through slow persuasion, elections, and the courts (I was happy to vote for it in a referendum). Obama passing (or failing) some litmus test didn't matter and burning him at the stake would have been counter productive. This is what I hear SJWs asking for- treating anyone who doesnt co-sign on the the most radical aspects of the race/gender studies view of the world or whatever the craziest BLM affiliate has said as evil.
Saying any particular identity group should have veto power over the party platform is silly and its likely to alienate a plurality of voters in a big diverse country. I'm not sure I agree with your facts on public opinion around Obama but I guess we'll find out. Maybe hunting heretics will work out for you. The right managed to kill all the RINOs, though I'm not sure we're better off for it.
@maribou All I have is anecdata but as best as I can tell the SJW crowd was 'with her' and the critics on the left were racist, sexist Bernie bros. Of course this could lead us into a discussion of what 'social justice' really is- and its a pretty nebulous term when you get down to it. Who I mean when I say 'SJW' would be the illiberal intersectionality uber alles left. And yes, I think the energy and where our political fault lines lie favor them to win over the Democratic party then promptly eat their own in an orgy of witch burning like the ditto-heads have the GOP.
@pillsy There's always been an arbitrariness about where the law sets those limits and social attitudes about it vary widely with the times. I'd think most people agree that the situation referenced in Cr4 is never going to be acceptable but time was that people weren't as horrified by a 15 or 16 year old getting what she came for from an adult rock star. That isnt to say it was exactly approved of but I'm not sure they were looked at as victims in quite the way they might be now. Attitudes about that have changed but I think we should be hesitant to project current norms onto things that happened 40 or more years ago. I mean... my grandmother was 17 and my grandmother was 32 when they had my mom. She'd laugh at anyone who said she was taken advantage of.
I actually think what @stillwater is saying is quite founded. The weirdos on the SJW left don't dominate the Democratic party now but the reactionary-populist right didn't always control the GOP either. It happened over a long period of time where a certain energized strain was allowed to grow in influence until it took over the grass roots. It's quite possible Obama will be remembered as the last of the Clintonite third way Democrats.
My hope is that the party will turn more towards a Sanders style push to renegotiate the social contract but theres no reason to think that the energy coming from the SJW corner won't prevail. The tribal nature and urban vs. rural aspects of our political moment favor a coastal coalition of college educated whites (particularly women) and minorities, where the SJW side side is strongest. Essentially the coalition Hilary thought would win her the election.
I dunno Burt. I agree that it doesn't have to be misinformation but there are plenty of prominent voices out there calling for various limitations on speech, including establishing laws other Western countries have adopted that wouldn't pass 1st Amendment scrutiny here. Now I do think there's more ignorance out in the general public than ideology but I don't think that's quite whats going on at colleges.
It makes sense if you look at everything through the lense of victim culture where individual agency is less important than amorphous societal power dynamics.
All fair enough (and don't worry given your posting history here I do not doubt your fandom, especially since I think I've deduced youre a fellow O's fan).
To me if they're going to do stuff like add a pitch clock or change rules around pitching changes they should first get rid of more recent crap like challenges and shrinking the strike zone. See if that helps before we do something that really screws with the flow of the game.
All interesting points but I don't really see what they had to do with my comment. I don't hear the push coming from regular fans of the game during the season, but it does consistently around playoff time when suddenly the national media tunes in and people who don't watch much baseball all summer suddenly are.
Medieval Europe was not preoccupied by race, nor was it an era of racial purity
One of the more pernicious, ahistorical, and stupid aspects of our cultural moment is the tendency to view everything through the lense of racial politics in modern America.
Ed2- Americans have an unusual fear of math because we're bad at teaching it and the stakes of failure at any point in our education system are ever higher.
Ed6- The call to condemn as usual is misdirected and its absurd to ask academics to virtue signal for no reason other than showing solidarity with a particular perspective about the current political climate. The way to disabuse anyone of fantastical ideas about medieval Europe is with facts about these societies, none of which bore much resemblance to popular imagination. Neo-Nazis and other fringe movements already traffic in fantasy anyway and I doubt many of them have much of a presence on college campuses where these denunciations would occur.
I've seen this kind of thing come up in the heavy metal world where certain subgenres of power metal and folk metal have become popular in Neo-Nazi circles even though there's nothing inherently racist about the music. Just because some noxious group likes a particular thing doesn't obligate others who enjoy or study that particular thing to disavow them. I'll never understand how all this Mcarthyite guilt by association crap has gotten so popular in our society.
@pd-shaw's last paragraph I think is most on point. I hear the complaint about length most around playoff time where the pitching strategy is nothing like the normal season.
I'm a dissenter on the idea that these games need to be shortened. If it's something we're going to do I don't think it should be driven by the ultra-casual fan or sports media more interested in the highlights than the quality of the product as a whole. As @mike-dwyer said above, the slowness of the game is part of its charm.
Blade Runner 2049 may top my list of perplexing sequels. The original wasn't a commercial success, there's no franchise potential, and as best as I can tell no one was asking for it. More evidence that Ridley Scott should be forced into retirement I guess.
Eh I kind of get why they don't. A lot of what goes on in campus activism has as much to do with youth and maturity as it does with actual politics. Conservative media already does all it can to connect the Democratic party to college activist antics. If I were a party operative I wouldn't want to officially own something I probably can't control.
Maybe I'm wrong though and it would create a more disciplined left which I don't think would be a bad thing. We've talked plenty on this site about the myriad of ways left wing activisim in this country ensures its own ineffectiveness.
I dunno- I think Will's comment shows a misreading of the situation. No one has been better at trolling the campus left than college Republicans. Every riot, disrupted speaker, or similar incident is a PR victory.
I'm not sure I agree. I think people who still have a subscription to the WaPo or NYT probably still find them largely credible but that's not really what I'm talking about.
On “Linky Friday: Blood & Money”
I've got a basic understanding of the historical, religiously based movements, though I suspect youre far better read than me. That said I was raised Catholic and am still strangely involved in the Church in some ways despite personal agnosticism, also did a lot of Latin American history in undergrad where it was a major topic at times. What I'm talking about here isn't the same thing.
Stillwater's description below is much closer to the mark and pretty in line with how I see the movement. It isn't about helping people through personal actions and public policy. Its about establishing a new cultural morality police and using the political system to do it if possible. Maybe we need to come up with a better name for the movement, I'm just going by popular lexicon for internet debates.
Fwiw I can also tell you aren't who I'm talking about based on how you discuss the subject.
"
This response doesnt make sense to me. Nowhere did I say anyone should stop talking about anything or advocating for themselves. I said I don't think every idea or argument (or piece of art or other issue of any kind for that matter) should be viewed/assessed solely through the lense of identity politics. The movement thats defined itself by that approach to life is at best intellectually vapid and and at worst no less illberal than the old Christian right. If someone thinks I'm wrong and wants to talk about that on the merits I'm always happy to discuss. Conversely, if all we're doing is appeals to sex organs, skin color, or nebulous academic newspeak I find it to be a waste of time.
"
Maybe it's an issue of definitions. As I said above, I think 'social justice' is a pretty nebulous term, and it can mean different things to different people. I cited the example I did because what I'm talking about is a politics that puts identity above all else. That's what I hear when I hear or read 'social justice.' Maybe its not fair to use the 'sjw' internet lingo, and I have encountered people who say their politics are oriented in 'social justice' whose views overlap with mine in many respects. That said I don't think its how the the term is generally being used or understood. We've both said we are speaking from anecdotes/individual perspective, not hard evidence.
"
@maribou
I can't tell you about the people you work with or organize with. All I can say is the face of what we're talking about are people who believe race or sex or who they are attracted to is the most important aspect of life, and all thoughts and ideas ought to be weighed and filtered based on the traits of who uttered them, not the merits. Contrary to your characterization, these are not people who advocate civil liberties. In fact they protest when the ACLU comes to teach people how they can more effectively exercise their rights. It's the opposite of what liberalism is supposed to be about.
I very much appreciate your perspective on this but I really don't have common ground with anyone putting identity before policy and civil liberties. In fact I want that perspective to lose and be marginalized before they harm efforts to improve society by allying themselves with other illiberal groups (see carceral feminism) or cause the rest of the polity to dismiss liberalism as the realm of spoiled rich kids who joined a cult in college.
"
I actually look at this differently. I think old fashion liberalism won on gay marriage through slow persuasion, elections, and the courts (I was happy to vote for it in a referendum). Obama passing (or failing) some litmus test didn't matter and burning him at the stake would have been counter productive. This is what I hear SJWs asking for- treating anyone who doesnt co-sign on the the most radical aspects of the race/gender studies view of the world or whatever the craziest BLM affiliate has said as evil.
"
Saying any particular identity group should have veto power over the party platform is silly and its likely to alienate a plurality of voters in a big diverse country. I'm not sure I agree with your facts on public opinion around Obama but I guess we'll find out. Maybe hunting heretics will work out for you. The right managed to kill all the RINOs, though I'm not sure we're better off for it.
"
Did Obama have to do those things to win in the Midwest?
"
@maribou All I have is anecdata but as best as I can tell the SJW crowd was 'with her' and the critics on the left were racist, sexist Bernie bros. Of course this could lead us into a discussion of what 'social justice' really is- and its a pretty nebulous term when you get down to it. Who I mean when I say 'SJW' would be the illiberal intersectionality uber alles left. And yes, I think the energy and where our political fault lines lie favor them to win over the Democratic party then promptly eat their own in an orgy of witch burning like the ditto-heads have the GOP.
"
@pillsy There's always been an arbitrariness about where the law sets those limits and social attitudes about it vary widely with the times. I'd think most people agree that the situation referenced in Cr4 is never going to be acceptable but time was that people weren't as horrified by a 15 or 16 year old getting what she came for from an adult rock star. That isnt to say it was exactly approved of but I'm not sure they were looked at as victims in quite the way they might be now. Attitudes about that have changed but I think we should be hesitant to project current norms onto things that happened 40 or more years ago. I mean... my grandmother was 17 and my grandmother was 32 when they had my mom. She'd laugh at anyone who said she was taken advantage of.
"
I actually think what @stillwater is saying is quite founded. The weirdos on the SJW left don't dominate the Democratic party now but the reactionary-populist right didn't always control the GOP either. It happened over a long period of time where a certain energized strain was allowed to grow in influence until it took over the grass roots. It's quite possible Obama will be remembered as the last of the Clintonite third way Democrats.
My hope is that the party will turn more towards a Sanders style push to renegotiate the social contract but theres no reason to think that the energy coming from the SJW corner won't prevail. The tribal nature and urban vs. rural aspects of our political moment favor a coastal coalition of college educated whites (particularly women) and minorities, where the SJW side side is strongest. Essentially the coalition Hilary thought would win her the election.
On “Plausible Misconceptions”
I dunno Burt. I agree that it doesn't have to be misinformation but there are plenty of prominent voices out there calling for various limitations on speech, including establishing laws other Western countries have adopted that wouldn't pass 1st Amendment scrutiny here. Now I do think there's more ignorance out in the general public than ideology but I don't think that's quite whats going on at colleges.
On “Linky Friday: Blood & Money”
It makes sense if you look at everything through the lense of victim culture where individual agency is less important than amorphous societal power dynamics.
On “The 9:30 Project”
All fair enough (and don't worry given your posting history here I do not doubt your fandom, especially since I think I've deduced youre a fellow O's fan).
To me if they're going to do stuff like add a pitch clock or change rules around pitching changes they should first get rid of more recent crap like challenges and shrinking the strike zone. See if that helps before we do something that really screws with the flow of the game.
"
All interesting points but I don't really see what they had to do with my comment. I don't hear the push coming from regular fans of the game during the season, but it does consistently around playoff time when suddenly the national media tunes in and people who don't watch much baseball all summer suddenly are.
On “Morning Ed: Education {2017.10.18.W}”
One of the more pernicious, ahistorical, and stupid aspects of our cultural moment is the tendency to view everything through the lense of racial politics in modern America.
"
Ed2- Americans have an unusual fear of math because we're bad at teaching it and the stakes of failure at any point in our education system are ever higher.
Ed6- The call to condemn as usual is misdirected and its absurd to ask academics to virtue signal for no reason other than showing solidarity with a particular perspective about the current political climate. The way to disabuse anyone of fantastical ideas about medieval Europe is with facts about these societies, none of which bore much resemblance to popular imagination. Neo-Nazis and other fringe movements already traffic in fantasy anyway and I doubt many of them have much of a presence on college campuses where these denunciations would occur.
I've seen this kind of thing come up in the heavy metal world where certain subgenres of power metal and folk metal have become popular in Neo-Nazi circles even though there's nothing inherently racist about the music. Just because some noxious group likes a particular thing doesn't obligate others who enjoy or study that particular thing to disavow them. I'll never understand how all this Mcarthyite guilt by association crap has gotten so popular in our society.
On “The 9:30 Project”
@pd-shaw's last paragraph I think is most on point. I hear the complaint about length most around playoff time where the pitching strategy is nothing like the normal season.
I'm a dissenter on the idea that these games need to be shortened. If it's something we're going to do I don't think it should be driven by the ultra-casual fan or sports media more interested in the highlights than the quality of the product as a whole. As @mike-dwyer said above, the slowness of the game is part of its charm.
On “A Fork In The Road”
@aaron-david
Blade Runner 2049 may top my list of perplexing sequels. The original wasn't a commercial success, there's no franchise potential, and as best as I can tell no one was asking for it. More evidence that Ridley Scott should be forced into retirement I guess.
On “Morning Ed: World {2017.10.13.F}”
Eh I kind of get why they don't. A lot of what goes on in campus activism has as much to do with youth and maturity as it does with actual politics. Conservative media already does all it can to connect the Democratic party to college activist antics. If I were a party operative I wouldn't want to officially own something I probably can't control.
Maybe I'm wrong though and it would create a more disciplined left which I don't think would be a bad thing. We've talked plenty on this site about the myriad of ways left wing activisim in this country ensures its own ineffectiveness.
"
I dunno- I think Will's comment shows a misreading of the situation. No one has been better at trolling the campus left than college Republicans. Every riot, disrupted speaker, or similar incident is a PR victory.
On “Morning Ed: Media {2017.10.11.W}”
Its the Milo Minderbinder philosophy. The absolute worst thing you can do is act ashamed.
"
Agreed.
"
It tied Milo to Devin Saucier and another personality (Deezer or something) who are apparently prominent in the neo-Nazi movement.
"
I'm not sure I agree. I think people who still have a subscription to the WaPo or NYT probably still find them largely credible but that's not really what I'm talking about.
"
@pillsy you don't think the MSM has taken some serious blows to its credibility?
Edit to add by credibility I mean credibility as a neutral arbiter/4th estate kind of function.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.