They are "resisting" the idea of Jews being there at all. Them "resisting" the idea of Jews predates the blockade and the blockade was created because of that.
If we get rid of the blockade we should expect that the "resistance" to the idea of Jews being in Israel would continue.
Calling this "resistance" is heavy spin to make them excusable. I call them "openly genocidal" because that's a more accurate way to describe the situation.
After having "condemned without qualification" the 10-7 attacks she then proceeds to put down a lot of you-have-to-understand, this-was-justified, and "this was not terrorism nor antisemitic" arguments. Of course she also claims Hamas is a member of the global Left.
So lots of own goals and self contradictions there.
She started not speaking English, having learning/behavioral disabilities, and not having a parent who could/would advocate for her who apparently ignored the situation.
That school system had 42% of it's students not speaking English?
I guess this is a really good example of why I keep saying the school system works for me and not the other way around. My kid. My responsibility.
InMD: it’s the Israelis by their own policies insisting on living in the same country with Palestinians, then pointing to Palestinian violence as the reason for their own crazy choice.
This is insisting if Israel weren't repressive, the Palestinians would be reasonable.
This is also insisting the Palestinians are lying when they've said the real problem is the existence of Israel. That they think all of the land is theirs. That there should be no Jews in the middle East. That any RoR needs to be "just" and destroy Israel's Jewish nature.
I don't see support for this other than "how would I feel in this situation".
When I look for support for them meaning what they say, their behavior is consistent, the timeline matches up, and they've repeatedly turned down the deal you claim would make them happy.
We should assume they will still have large factions genocidally opposed to Israel after whatever deal we want to force upon them. By "large factions" I mean "enough to win free and fair democratic elections".
As far as I can tell, Team Blue (Biden's administration) have been trying to pressure Israel to "not escalate" and trying to defuse the war.
Neither Hamas nor Israel want to end the war, they both want to win it.
The US's "pressure" largely consists of words, not actions.
I'm not sure what Team Red's position is. More support for Israel I guess, but honestly there's not a lot of room there other than not finger wagging.
The only concern I have over Team Blue is they'll paint themselves into a corner with all this "we're going to pressure Israel to not 'escalate'" stuff.
Suggesting that they could withhold arms and then being ignored might force them to actually withhold arms.
The over arching problems/issues are:
1) Iran is trying (successfully) to disrupt the region. Russia is somewhat helping because it wants to distract the US from Europe.
2) Israel is a lot more willing to see terrorists as existential threats and behave accordingly.
North: That’s just quibbling. Israel had a pretty free hand overall.
Quibble? You are pointing to the world's current reaction to Israel's current dealing with Gaza as a reason for Israel to create another Gaza on a larger scale.
You're also pointing to the Gaza of 2007 to before-Oct7 raining down terrorism on Israel as a success story.
That wasn't a success, it was a failure. It was somewhat tolerable because of it's relatively smaller scale, but it's also why Lee says the world expects Israel to put up with terrorism.
If the world doesn't support Israel trying to remove Hamas root and branch after Oct-7th then they certainly wouldn't have supported it 10 years ago.
The key failure point in your plan is after Israel pulls out of the WB, the Palestinians will behave reasonably and not commit acts of war against Israel.
Or that when they commit acts of war against Israel, the world will back Israel doing to the WB what they're doing to Gaza.
I want to back this way forward because it's at least something Israel could do... but I can't convince myself that the Palestinians will stop trying to drive out the Jews. This is why I've suggested an extremely brutal and repressive PA as a solution for this issue.
You're pointing to Gaza as a successful way to deal with terrorism, the Palestinians, and gaining world support for Israel to deal with it's efforts on both of those.
Gaza was launching terror attacks in the first couple of years and it fully devoted the resources of it's micro-state to terrorism after the first three years or so.
IMHO one of the massive problems was the world didn't let the Palestinians "bear the consequence of their actions". Hamas could steal aid, build terror infrastructure underground, and the world kept sending in money and Israel isn't allowed to flatten the place.
"Saying nasty things" isn't the same thing as "engages in widespread terrorism" much less is "openly genocidal".
The "openly genocidal" groups haven't just said they're willing to kill every Jew they get their hands on, they've actually done that as recently as a year ago.
When Israel has handed back land without a formal peace agreement, that land has turned into terror bases. The formal peace agreements require an Israel destroying RoR.
You're not wrong about the democratic problems that Israel is creating for itself, but I'm not wrong about Israel's security situation.
If Israel needs to choose between being not a real democracy and it's people not being terrorized, then that's an easy choice.
The challenge is how to come up with a solution that doesn't require that choice. The PA becoming a brutal dictatorship which harshly represses it's people's desire to launch genocidal wars might work.
But whatever plan we come up with needs to acknowledge the root of the problem.
On November 2, 2012, Abbas said there was "no right of hometown return". Two days later he had to "clarify" that he had NOT given it up and he was only talking about himself personally.
The Trump peace plan in 2018 would have gotten rid of the RoR (i.e. refugees can only go back to the created Palestinian state), and the PLO rejected this as "worthless nonsense".
InMD: Israel insists on keeping millions of people inside its de facto borders who they will never grant citizenship to or any other rights.
The failed year 2000 peace agreement had Israel agree to fixed borders and remove settlements or trade land for them. The Palestinians final offer was a 150k per year Right to Return.
We don't have strong evidence the Palestinians have changed. Their head once remarked unofficially they'd have to give that up if they wanted peace, but there are plenty of politicians and speeches informing their people they have not changed.
Since then, Israel has built more settlements and Netanyahu has no willingness to remove them... however Netanyahu isn't in the "peace wing". In 2011 the Israeli Left once again offered "an Israeli withdrawal" not "full" so presumably it's basically the same offer as in 2000. This 2011 offer pointed out that any RoR wouldn't be into Israel proper.
So the Israeli Left has occasionally been in power and offered the Palestinians everything it's claimed they want (yes, including getting rid of the settlements), and they've shown themselves unwilling to give up an Israel destroying RoR.
As long as the Palestinians are unwilling to accept Israel existing they need to deal with Netanyahu (who is exactly as you described).
South Africa's Apartheid didn't end until the Blacks made a deal with the Whites. That deal included not killing them.
Palestinian unwillingness to make that deal is the source of the problem. The world thinking otherwise doesn't change that reality.
If the Blacks had been openly dedicated to mass murder and/or no whites in Africa, then the conflict couldn't have been resolved peacefully, and the world's disapproval would have meant less.
The Jews aren't going to put "treating the Palestinians nicer" above their own survival. That is the reality which keeps breaking these peace agreements.
RE: US Aid
Israel has the 26th highest GDP in the world. US aid is useful but it's also only about 3% of their GDP.
RE: German Arms
I don't think we're close to having a world wide arms embargo against Israel to support Hamas. Even if we (amazingly) do have that, countries which currently are willing to arm Russia will probably ignore it.
RE: Bigger picture
If the world decides that a Jewish state needs to be held to an impossibly high standard then Israel will do what it needs to survive.
Cheaper tactics could easily mean the Palestinians get treated a lot worse. That doesn't imply Israel tolerates it's civilians being terrorized or creates an Israel destroying Right to Return.
The big flaw in the "pull out of the WB plan" is "and the Arabs don't turn it into a terror base".
In Southern Lebanon and in Gaza, Israel pulling out without a formal peace agreement resulted in the creation of terror bases right over the border which has ended with the current messes.
Maybe the WB would go differently. Maybe with the example of losing these wars various groups would be willing to sign up to a peace plan.
Or maybe Israel has to put the WB through a wood chipper.
But Israel isn't going to make decisions based on world opinion because world opinion is Israel shouldn't be killing human shields.
North: That line of thinking seems both questionable as a matter of fact
One hopes. We'll see the proof that if the next peace negotiation has the Palestinians not insisting on an Israel destroying right of return. Ideally the UN would get rid of it now.
North: and also destined to put Israel in a post apartheid South Africa situation
Marcellus Williams was charged with Gayle's murder. Prosecutors presented evidence that included testimonies of Williams' former cellmate, girlfriend, and a man who testified to Williams selling him Gayle's stolen laptop. Other evidence included Williams's possession of items stolen from Gayle's home.
A search of Williams' car turned up a St. Louis Post-Dispatch ruler and calculator that had belonged to Gayle. A laptop stolen from Gayle was also recovered from a man who testified that Williams had sold the victim’s laptop to him.[3][6]
Williams confessed to three different people. He has a very long criminal record and was serving time for robbing a store. Supposedly one of the confessions included details not released to the press.
DNA doesn't match him (as previously noted). Witnesses aren't especially reliable in general.
I see nothing in terms of "proof he is innocent" other than "it's all circumstantial evidence".
On “Open Mic for the week of 9/30/2024”
You should stop with the personal attacks and let Chris state his own reasoning.
"
The Palestinians (correctly) view themselves as the victims of ethnic cleansing. Of course so do the Jews.
We have two sets of indigenous natives there.
We also had all of the surrounding Arabic nations kick out their Jews who mostly fled to Israel.
"
They are "resisting" the idea of Jews being there at all. Them "resisting" the idea of Jews predates the blockade and the blockade was created because of that.
If we get rid of the blockade we should expect that the "resistance" to the idea of Jews being in Israel would continue.
Calling this "resistance" is heavy spin to make them excusable. I call them "openly genocidal" because that's a more accurate way to describe the situation.
"
The schools interests and my interests can conflict although normally they don't.
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Butler#Comments_on_Hamas,_Hezbollah_and_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
After having "condemned without qualification" the 10-7 attacks she then proceeds to put down a lot of you-have-to-understand, this-was-justified, and "this was not terrorism nor antisemitic" arguments. Of course she also claims Hamas is a member of the global Left.
So lots of own goals and self contradictions there.
"
She started not speaking English, having learning/behavioral disabilities, and not having a parent who could/would advocate for her who apparently ignored the situation.
That school system had 42% of it's students not speaking English?
I guess this is a really good example of why I keep saying the school system works for me and not the other way around. My kid. My responsibility.
"
I assume we're already looking through social media to see if there is any illiberal or bigoted behavior.
On “Open Mic for the week of 9/23/2024”
InMD: it’s the Israelis by their own policies insisting on living in the same country with Palestinians, then pointing to Palestinian violence as the reason for their own crazy choice.
This is insisting if Israel weren't repressive, the Palestinians would be reasonable.
This is also insisting the Palestinians are lying when they've said the real problem is the existence of Israel. That they think all of the land is theirs. That there should be no Jews in the middle East. That any RoR needs to be "just" and destroy Israel's Jewish nature.
I don't see support for this other than "how would I feel in this situation".
When I look for support for them meaning what they say, their behavior is consistent, the timeline matches up, and they've repeatedly turned down the deal you claim would make them happy.
We should assume they will still have large factions genocidally opposed to Israel after whatever deal we want to force upon them. By "large factions" I mean "enough to win free and fair democratic elections".
On “Open Mic for the week of 9/30/2024”
Iran needs to appear to look strong.
Iran also needs to have Israel not blow up their ONE oil handling seaport.
"
The definition of "Palestine" was different in the 1920s. Same guy created "The Palestine Electric Corporation" in 1923 to bring power to the region.
"
The two sides haven't held negotiations since June. Docker workers want an 80% pay increase and for there to NOT have automation in ports.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/consumer/article-13907379/warning-dockworkers-strike-price-rises-shelves.html
On “Why a Trump Loss is Best for Conservatives”
As far as I can tell, Team Blue (Biden's administration) have been trying to pressure Israel to "not escalate" and trying to defuse the war.
Neither Hamas nor Israel want to end the war, they both want to win it.
The US's "pressure" largely consists of words, not actions.
I'm not sure what Team Red's position is. More support for Israel I guess, but honestly there's not a lot of room there other than not finger wagging.
The only concern I have over Team Blue is they'll paint themselves into a corner with all this "we're going to pressure Israel to not 'escalate'" stuff.
Suggesting that they could withhold arms and then being ignored might force them to actually withhold arms.
The over arching problems/issues are:
1) Iran is trying (successfully) to disrupt the region. Russia is somewhat helping because it wants to distract the US from Europe.
2) Israel is a lot more willing to see terrorists as existential threats and behave accordingly.
On “Open Mic for the week of 9/23/2024”
North: That’s just quibbling. Israel had a pretty free hand overall.
Quibble? You are pointing to the world's current reaction to Israel's current dealing with Gaza as a reason for Israel to create another Gaza on a larger scale.
You're also pointing to the Gaza of 2007 to before-Oct7 raining down terrorism on Israel as a success story.
That wasn't a success, it was a failure. It was somewhat tolerable because of it's relatively smaller scale, but it's also why Lee says the world expects Israel to put up with terrorism.
If the world doesn't support Israel trying to remove Hamas root and branch after Oct-7th then they certainly wouldn't have supported it 10 years ago.
The key failure point in your plan is after Israel pulls out of the WB, the Palestinians will behave reasonably and not commit acts of war against Israel.
Or that when they commit acts of war against Israel, the world will back Israel doing to the WB what they're doing to Gaza.
I want to back this way forward because it's at least something Israel could do... but I can't convince myself that the Palestinians will stop trying to drive out the Jews. This is why I've suggested an extremely brutal and repressive PA as a solution for this issue.
"
You're pointing to Gaza as a successful way to deal with terrorism, the Palestinians, and gaining world support for Israel to deal with it's efforts on both of those.
Gaza was launching terror attacks in the first couple of years and it fully devoted the resources of it's micro-state to terrorism after the first three years or so.
IMHO one of the massive problems was the world didn't let the Palestinians "bear the consequence of their actions". Hamas could steal aid, build terror infrastructure underground, and the world kept sending in money and Israel isn't allowed to flatten the place.
"
"Saying nasty things" isn't the same thing as "engages in widespread terrorism" much less is "openly genocidal".
The "openly genocidal" groups haven't just said they're willing to kill every Jew they get their hands on, they've actually done that as recently as a year ago.
When Israel has handed back land without a formal peace agreement, that land has turned into terror bases. The formal peace agreements require an Israel destroying RoR.
You're not wrong about the democratic problems that Israel is creating for itself, but I'm not wrong about Israel's security situation.
If Israel needs to choose between being not a real democracy and it's people not being terrorized, then that's an easy choice.
The challenge is how to come up with a solution that doesn't require that choice. The PA becoming a brutal dictatorship which harshly represses it's people's desire to launch genocidal wars might work.
But whatever plan we come up with needs to acknowledge the root of the problem.
"
On November 2, 2012, Abbas said there was "no right of hometown return". Two days later he had to "clarify" that he had NOT given it up and he was only talking about himself personally.
The Trump peace plan in 2018 would have gotten rid of the RoR (i.e. refugees can only go back to the created Palestinian state), and the PLO rejected this as "worthless nonsense".
https://www.timesofisrael.com/plo-official-raps-reported-us-plan-to-cancel-right-of-return-as-nonsense/
Everything I've read from the Palestinians says, "yes, they're serious", and there will be no peace without an Israel destroying RoR.
"
InMD: Israel insists on keeping millions of people inside its de facto borders who they will never grant citizenship to or any other rights.
The failed year 2000 peace agreement had Israel agree to fixed borders and remove settlements or trade land for them. The Palestinians final offer was a 150k per year Right to Return.
We don't have strong evidence the Palestinians have changed. Their head once remarked unofficially they'd have to give that up if they wanted peace, but there are plenty of politicians and speeches informing their people they have not changed.
Since then, Israel has built more settlements and Netanyahu has no willingness to remove them... however Netanyahu isn't in the "peace wing". In 2011 the Israeli Left once again offered "an Israeli withdrawal" not "full" so presumably it's basically the same offer as in 2000. This 2011 offer pointed out that any RoR wouldn't be into Israel proper.
So the Israeli Left has occasionally been in power and offered the Palestinians everything it's claimed they want (yes, including getting rid of the settlements), and they've shown themselves unwilling to give up an Israel destroying RoR.
As long as the Palestinians are unwilling to accept Israel existing they need to deal with Netanyahu (who is exactly as you described).
"
South Africa's Apartheid didn't end until the Blacks made a deal with the Whites. That deal included not killing them.
Palestinian unwillingness to make that deal is the source of the problem. The world thinking otherwise doesn't change that reality.
If the Blacks had been openly dedicated to mass murder and/or no whites in Africa, then the conflict couldn't have been resolved peacefully, and the world's disapproval would have meant less.
The Jews aren't going to put "treating the Palestinians nicer" above their own survival. That is the reality which keeps breaking these peace agreements.
"
RE: US Aid
Israel has the 26th highest GDP in the world. US aid is useful but it's also only about 3% of their GDP.
RE: German Arms
I don't think we're close to having a world wide arms embargo against Israel to support Hamas. Even if we (amazingly) do have that, countries which currently are willing to arm Russia will probably ignore it.
RE: Bigger picture
If the world decides that a Jewish state needs to be held to an impossibly high standard then Israel will do what it needs to survive.
Cheaper tactics could easily mean the Palestinians get treated a lot worse. That doesn't imply Israel tolerates it's civilians being terrorized or creates an Israel destroying Right to Return.
The big flaw in the "pull out of the WB plan" is "and the Arabs don't turn it into a terror base".
In Southern Lebanon and in Gaza, Israel pulling out without a formal peace agreement resulted in the creation of terror bases right over the border which has ended with the current messes.
Maybe the WB would go differently. Maybe with the example of losing these wars various groups would be willing to sign up to a peace plan.
Or maybe Israel has to put the WB through a wood chipper.
But Israel isn't going to make decisions based on world opinion because world opinion is Israel shouldn't be killing human shields.
On “Weekend Plans Post: Commandaria”
That's my cat! Like, exactly my cat.
On “Open Mic for the week of 9/23/2024”
The opinions of the West don't mean a lot if the alternative is being subjected to terrorism.
"
North: That line of thinking seems both questionable as a matter of fact
One hopes. We'll see the proof that if the next peace negotiation has the Palestinians not insisting on an Israel destroying right of return. Ideally the UN would get rid of it now.
North: and also destined to put Israel in a post apartheid South Africa situation
Terrorism causes poverty.
On “Missouri Conducts Controversial Execution of Marcellus Williams”
To be fair there does seem to be evidence that he reformed after he was in prison and he had a really nasty childhood.
"
Marcellus Williams was charged with Gayle's murder. Prosecutors presented evidence that included testimonies of Williams' former cellmate, girlfriend, and a man who testified to Williams selling him Gayle's stolen laptop. Other evidence included Williams's possession of items stolen from Gayle's home.
A search of Williams' car turned up a St. Louis Post-Dispatch ruler and calculator that had belonged to Gayle. A laptop stolen from Gayle was also recovered from a man who testified that Williams had sold the victim’s laptop to him.[3][6]
Williams confessed to three different people. He has a very long criminal record and was serving time for robbing a store. Supposedly one of the confessions included details not released to the press.
DNA doesn't match him (as previously noted). Witnesses aren't especially reliable in general.
I see nothing in terms of "proof he is innocent" other than "it's all circumstantial evidence".
On “Open Mic for the week of 9/23/2024”
Something like that. One hopes that military base & apartment building(?) had more than just him to balance out the military:civilian ratio.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.