I think we may be agreeing. At risk of restating what I'm trying to get at is that we do not want to emulate their loss of competitiveness. That goes well beyond the ongoing refugee issues they've dealt with over the last 15-20 years and hits the heart of the larger suite of protections they've instituted for themselves from competition, both from immigrants and outside the EU and it's satellites. They have a lot of the things our economic populists dream of and the trajectory isn't just bad, it's shockingly bad given the near parity that existed between the EU and the US 20-25 years ago.
I nod along with this but think it circles us back to the larger looming question. Can Congress adapt our laws to changing conditions anymore?
The populist impulse isn't wrong, in the sense that the law is supposed to serve the American people. And to the extent benefiting big corporate employers also benefits the people more broadly, then there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but when it doesn't, the state can and should act as a necessary corrective.
At the same time I think it's probably wrong to believe we can win the 21st century by overly restricting ourselves. We should still want to be the top destination for foreign talent, and the last thing we should want to emulate is Europe's combination of populism and competitive nosedive.
Roundabout way of saying it's a hell of a needle we're going to need to thread. I'm pretty pessimistic about the ability of the people we keep putting in charge to figure it out.
What about the idea that companies pretend not to be able to find qualified Americans so they can hire a cheaper foreigner who is easier to push around, because if they lose the job and can't find another one quickly they're sent back? Do you think that might ever happen or no?
I personally think the H1B is in theory* one of the more defensible aspects of our broken immigration system but if you aren't grappling with the above you aren't responding to the criticism.
I'm sure it's interesting! The question I suppose is what they're like now. I get the sense that people who do that end up being decent engineers but would likely struggle to do anything that requires some risk taking. A healthy society probably needs a dose of both types.
My saving grace was going to a strict-ish Catholic school through 8th grade. Public high school was so easy for me I barely had to try, and thank God for that, because I spent quite a bit of time out in woods and fields smoking pot, chasing the smart and artsy yet troubled girls, plus drinking whatever alcohol we could get our hands on.
I'm honestly starting to wonder if the debate isn't for all intents and purposes over. Israel is now at war in 3 or 4 other nations, depending on what you count Gaza to be, with no significant consequences from its Western benefactors. One assumes that the Trump administration isn't going to do anything. Now that all of the important Iranian proxies have been defeated I'm waiting for Israel to announce full annexation. This may be the strongest their hand will ever be. What happens after that is anyone's guess.
There is a part of me that wonders if these high level conversations aren't more reflective of what people remember about whatever teen/coming of age movie than the complicated reality of US education. On the one hand there are places that seem to under invest and where the operation is subject to a lot of politicized misdirection and pure incompetence (to say nothing of the places where there is a larger social and economic collapse).
At the same time, as I understand it, our best and brightest are as competitive as those from anywhere, and our median ain't awful either, but our mean is dragged down considerably by the existence of crazy outlier poor performers.
Technically for H-1B the motte is 'I cannot find an American to do this job, in spite of a good faith attempt to do so.'
I'm not going to try to argue that's never true but I'd like to think we all approach claims from tech entrepreneurs with skepticism, given how self interested they are in the subject.
Like a lot of things culture war ends up imposed on an up for debate economic policy. Keeps anyone from asking basic questions about whether the policy actually does what it's supposed to do.
Heh I think whatever old school lecturing there is has become so inconsequential and overshadowed by patronizing identity leftism that it's driving black men to vote the other way. It isn't a real issue anymore, and the over correction has gone so far that even innocuous life skills stuff has a good chance of being treated as racism in a number of important contexts including education and employment.
I do think there's a point in there about American culture failing to incubate hard work and excellence as important values. I'm just not sure the H-1B system or the values that come with people via that channel is a great example of the corrective. The immigrants that do really impressive things in STEM fields tend to be the types that want to escape the conformity of their home cultures, not the ones that excelled in the pressure cooker model of education that prevails in east Asia. Silicon Valley was built more by free thinking hippie types and rule breakers than people who spent their childhoods studying 20 hours per day for a state administered exam.
H-1Bs are in my experience neither of these things. You do get some very talented people coming through, and we should absolutely want them to stay and become Americans. Along with them though you also often get their useless in laws with a bordering on fake degree. Before you know it half the department is comprised of that person's friends and relatives, but modern HR conventions prevent anyone from talking about what's going on in more than the most euphemistic ways. Meanwhile the C suite is celebrating improvements to the bottom line but no one knows why DevOps (or wherever) is suddenly a black hole and QC doesn't seem to function anymore.
White people lecturing black people? In 2024? I need some of what you're smoking.
Not that Vivek is totally wrong about American values. He's just also off about H-1Bs. They aren't about talent they're about cost/(alleged) inability to find Americans with a required skillset. As best as I can tell from anecdotal experience it operates as a combination of indentured servitude and backdoor way for people to move their entire village and extended family to the US, often using highly suspect credentials, maybe at the expense of quality and competence. So an odd arrangement
divorced from original intent where corporate America and would-be immigrants exploit each other in a race to the bottom.
That's missing the point of the comment. I'm personally against the death penalty because, among other reasons, it's clear there's no way to have it without occasionally killing an innocent (or at least not guilty of the capital offense) person. It's not a price worth paying.
The point is that arguing about 'equity' or whatever, in this context, is plainly ridiculous. The government could solve that one by deciding to execute more people, rather than fewer or none at all.
I don't know if that's an entirely apples to apples comparison but it doesn't matter. The point is I don't see how people can consider themselves defenders of the liberal order if their version of the overton window is so narrow it precludes debate on major matters of public policy. I mean, if your vision of politics is one where the same people who all agree on everything are perpetually empowered and dissenters face state backed censure and/or prosecution then uh... newsflash... you probably aren't who you think you are.
Oh for goodness sakes guys. We're talking about immigration policy. That's well within the realm of topics that a democracy can and must be able to debate. And anyone who really thinks it isn't needs to ask themselves some hard questions about which side they're actually on in the democracy versus not democracy debate.
A small backlash? If the election were held today they would be the 2nd biggest party in the Bundestag. Every effort to suppress them, rather than defeat them, has only expanded their appeal. It's a serious problem that the type of politics you're proposing is completely incapable of dealing with. That's in large part because constantly accusing everyone that disagrees on immigration policy (or whatever else) of being evil has rendered those that do without any credibility. Fewer and fewer people take that kind of talk seriously. That isn't blaming 'immigrants.' It's holding politicians responsible for the foolhardy belief that requests for asylum by foreigners supersede the views of citizens in a democracy. That's not just idiotic, it's in direct conflict with the way the government works.
If they ban AfD it will only make their ongoing political crisis worse. The popular rebellion over there is a natural outgrowth of how unserious Germany's leadership has been over the last 15-20 years. Instead of thinking ahead they doubled down on Russian energy, the Chinese export market, and outsourcing their defense to the US. Then they flooded the country with refugees and other irregular immigrants from countries and cultures hostile to their own. Both of the big mainstream parties have their fingerprints all over it and neither has done a credible pivot. So AfD sucks but their ascension so far has been through normal democratic politics and is therefore perfectly legitimate. The way to defeat them is for the mainstream parties to get their heads out of their asses and prove they can do a better job running the country.
I envy the people who get the two weeks off off. Since I became an in-house lawyer I've spent the time in an on call capacity. On the one hand, no one is really looking for me in the normal sense. On the other there are are contracts that need to be completed by years end, last call here, final edit there, with the added complicating factor that many of the people in the process are suddenly unreachable. However there are certainly much worse things, and at least I can do it all from my desk at home.
I agree. AOC doesn't best align with my policy preferences but she's been a team player when it mattered. She didn't deserve to he done dirty like that. Certainly not for another end of career greybeard.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.
On “The Immigration Thing”
I think we may be agreeing. At risk of restating what I'm trying to get at is that we do not want to emulate their loss of competitiveness. That goes well beyond the ongoing refugee issues they've dealt with over the last 15-20 years and hits the heart of the larger suite of protections they've instituted for themselves from competition, both from immigrants and outside the EU and it's satellites. They have a lot of the things our economic populists dream of and the trajectory isn't just bad, it's shockingly bad given the near parity that existed between the EU and the US 20-25 years ago.
"
I nod along with this but think it circles us back to the larger looming question. Can Congress adapt our laws to changing conditions anymore?
The populist impulse isn't wrong, in the sense that the law is supposed to serve the American people. And to the extent benefiting big corporate employers also benefits the people more broadly, then there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but when it doesn't, the state can and should act as a necessary corrective.
At the same time I think it's probably wrong to believe we can win the 21st century by overly restricting ourselves. We should still want to be the top destination for foreign talent, and the last thing we should want to emulate is Europe's combination of populism and competitive nosedive.
Roundabout way of saying it's a hell of a needle we're going to need to thread. I'm pretty pessimistic about the ability of the people we keep putting in charge to figure it out.
"
What about the idea that companies pretend not to be able to find qualified Americans so they can hire a cheaper foreigner who is easier to push around, because if they lose the job and can't find another one quickly they're sent back? Do you think that might ever happen or no?
I personally think the H1B is in theory* one of the more defensible aspects of our broken immigration system but if you aren't grappling with the above you aren't responding to the criticism.
*In practice... well... look at the chart.
On “Open Mic for the week of 12/23/2024”
I'm sure it's interesting! The question I suppose is what they're like now. I get the sense that people who do that end up being decent engineers but would likely struggle to do anything that requires some risk taking. A healthy society probably needs a dose of both types.
My saving grace was going to a strict-ish Catholic school through 8th grade. Public high school was so easy for me I barely had to try, and thank God for that, because I spent quite a bit of time out in woods and fields smoking pot, chasing the smart and artsy yet troubled girls, plus drinking whatever alcohol we could get our hands on.
On “Joe Biden Agrees that Some People *DO* Deserve the Death Penalty”
I'm honestly starting to wonder if the debate isn't for all intents and purposes over. Israel is now at war in 3 or 4 other nations, depending on what you count Gaza to be, with no significant consequences from its Western benefactors. One assumes that the Trump administration isn't going to do anything. Now that all of the important Iranian proxies have been defeated I'm waiting for Israel to announce full annexation. This may be the strongest their hand will ever be. What happens after that is anyone's guess.
On “Open Mic for the week of 12/23/2024”
All good points.
There is a part of me that wonders if these high level conversations aren't more reflective of what people remember about whatever teen/coming of age movie than the complicated reality of US education. On the one hand there are places that seem to under invest and where the operation is subject to a lot of politicized misdirection and pure incompetence (to say nothing of the places where there is a larger social and economic collapse).
At the same time, as I understand it, our best and brightest are as competitive as those from anywhere, and our median ain't awful either, but our mean is dragged down considerably by the existence of crazy outlier poor performers.
"
Heh, exactly.
"
Technically for H-1B the motte is 'I cannot find an American to do this job, in spite of a good faith attempt to do so.'
I'm not going to try to argue that's never true but I'd like to think we all approach claims from tech entrepreneurs with skepticism, given how self interested they are in the subject.
"
Like a lot of things culture war ends up imposed on an up for debate economic policy. Keeps anyone from asking basic questions about whether the policy actually does what it's supposed to do.
"
Heh I think whatever old school lecturing there is has become so inconsequential and overshadowed by patronizing identity leftism that it's driving black men to vote the other way. It isn't a real issue anymore, and the over correction has gone so far that even innocuous life skills stuff has a good chance of being treated as racism in a number of important contexts including education and employment.
I do think there's a point in there about American culture failing to incubate hard work and excellence as important values. I'm just not sure the H-1B system or the values that come with people via that channel is a great example of the corrective. The immigrants that do really impressive things in STEM fields tend to be the types that want to escape the conformity of their home cultures, not the ones that excelled in the pressure cooker model of education that prevails in east Asia. Silicon Valley was built more by free thinking hippie types and rule breakers than people who spent their childhoods studying 20 hours per day for a state administered exam.
H-1Bs are in my experience neither of these things. You do get some very talented people coming through, and we should absolutely want them to stay and become Americans. Along with them though you also often get their useless in laws with a bordering on fake degree. Before you know it half the department is comprised of that person's friends and relatives, but modern HR conventions prevent anyone from talking about what's going on in more than the most euphemistic ways. Meanwhile the C suite is celebrating improvements to the bottom line but no one knows why DevOps (or wherever) is suddenly a black hole and QC doesn't seem to function anymore.
"
White people lecturing black people? In 2024? I need some of what you're smoking.
Not that Vivek is totally wrong about American values. He's just also off about H-1Bs. They aren't about talent they're about cost/(alleged) inability to find Americans with a required skillset. As best as I can tell from anecdotal experience it operates as a combination of indentured servitude and backdoor way for people to move their entire village and extended family to the US, often using highly suspect credentials, maybe at the expense of quality and competence. So an odd arrangement
divorced from original intent where corporate America and would-be immigrants exploit each other in a race to the bottom.
On “Joe Biden Agrees that Some People *DO* Deserve the Death Penalty”
I think there is a very good chance they already have and we just haven't caught up to the new reality yet.
"
That's missing the point of the comment. I'm personally against the death penalty because, among other reasons, it's clear there's no way to have it without occasionally killing an innocent (or at least not guilty of the capital offense) person. It's not a price worth paying.
The point is that arguing about 'equity' or whatever, in this context, is plainly ridiculous. The government could solve that one by deciding to execute more people, rather than fewer or none at all.
"
I never know what to do with that one. Is the ask to kill more people? It sounds like the concept for a Slayer album.
On “Open Mic for the week of 12/16/2024”
I don't know if that's an entirely apples to apples comparison but it doesn't matter. The point is I don't see how people can consider themselves defenders of the liberal order if their version of the overton window is so narrow it precludes debate on major matters of public policy. I mean, if your vision of politics is one where the same people who all agree on everything are perpetually empowered and dissenters face state backed censure and/or prosecution then uh... newsflash... you probably aren't who you think you are.
"
Oh for goodness sakes guys. We're talking about immigration policy. That's well within the realm of topics that a democracy can and must be able to debate. And anyone who really thinks it isn't needs to ask themselves some hard questions about which side they're actually on in the democracy versus not democracy debate.
"
Do you not understand the irony of speaking positively about banning political parties in the same breath as accusing people of being Na.zis?
"
A small backlash? If the election were held today they would be the 2nd biggest party in the Bundestag. Every effort to suppress them, rather than defeat them, has only expanded their appeal. It's a serious problem that the type of politics you're proposing is completely incapable of dealing with. That's in large part because constantly accusing everyone that disagrees on immigration policy (or whatever else) of being evil has rendered those that do without any credibility. Fewer and fewer people take that kind of talk seriously. That isn't blaming 'immigrants.' It's holding politicians responsible for the foolhardy belief that requests for asylum by foreigners supersede the views of citizens in a democracy. That's not just idiotic, it's in direct conflict with the way the government works.
"
I blame the availability of military style assault cars.
"
If they ban AfD it will only make their ongoing political crisis worse. The popular rebellion over there is a natural outgrowth of how unserious Germany's leadership has been over the last 15-20 years. Instead of thinking ahead they doubled down on Russian energy, the Chinese export market, and outsourcing their defense to the US. Then they flooded the country with refugees and other irregular immigrants from countries and cultures hostile to their own. Both of the big mainstream parties have their fingerprints all over it and neither has done a credible pivot. So AfD sucks but their ascension so far has been through normal democratic politics and is therefore perfectly legitimate. The way to defeat them is for the mainstream parties to get their heads out of their asses and prove they can do a better job running the country.
On “Weekend Plans Post: The Ghost Town”
That's life as a big shot!
On “Fani Willis Disqualification Ruling: Read It For Yourself”
Even if they get him for something in 2029 it will be cold comfort. He's already won.
On “Weekend Plans Post: The Ghost Town”
I envy the people who get the two weeks off off. Since I became an in-house lawyer I've spent the time in an on call capacity. On the one hand, no one is really looking for me in the normal sense. On the other there are are contracts that need to be completed by years end, last call here, final edit there, with the added complicating factor that many of the people in the process are suddenly unreachable. However there are certainly much worse things, and at least I can do it all from my desk at home.
On “Open Mic for the week of 12/16/2024”
I actually think he will have a tough time pinning this on anyone else. I'm not sure Biden still exists.
"
I agree. AOC doesn't best align with my policy preferences but she's been a team player when it mattered. She didn't deserve to he done dirty like that. Certainly not for another end of career greybeard.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.