Hamas has repeatedly stated that they make no distinction between Israel within the 1948 borders and Israeli settlements in WB and vowed for repeated attacks.
So Hamas is trying to blur the very line that North said you shouldn't blur if you have the best interests of Israel at heart?
I don't think it will get them to a deal by any means.
But it would at least stop hurting, without opening the door to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or some successor group turning the West Bank into another base from which to launch attacks.
The logic of continuing to occupy the West Bank is difficult to argue with, as much as I wish it were otherwise. But that logic does little or nothing to justify profiting (in terms of seized land or domestic political gains) on that occupation.
Much easier than that, and something that would help considerably with criticism, is to unilaterally stop building settlements in the West Bank.
I'm not going to pretend they're the biggest obstacle to peace, especially as long as Hamas exists, but it's something that Israel can absolutely do unilaterally without needing any sort of security guarantees from anyone else.
Hagee is an ulcer, and his presence is a natural consequence of the tendency of the pro-Israel Center and Right to use sentiment about Israel as a better proxy for anti-Semitism than actual anti-Semitism
“If there is a ceasefire, I don’t know what comes next. We also don’t know how things end with no ceasefire. We do have an idea that one of these unknowns results in far less death.”
If there is a ceasefire, and Hamas commits another round of atrocities afterward, provoking another Israeli assault on Gaza, will there be more death, or less?
Yeah, agreed the idea that you can just transpose US racial categories to arbitrary foreign conflicts and controversies is a (very dumb) knee jerk that’s much more prevalent on the American Left.
The composition, size, and general ideological bent of Western anti-Zionists have not remained a constant for the 70 years of Israel’s existence. The idea that people’s opinions on the Israel/Palestine are purely endogenous is pretty weird, but it’s hard to see what other foundation you could build your argument on
I can see situations where tearing down posters is a great response.
It's just that, "Well, yeah, the awful crime that poster is depicting definitely happened, and it was actually committed by the people the poster accuses of committing it, but you need to consider the broader context!" isn't one of them.
If you can't come up with a good response to effective propaganda coming from the other side, you can always come up with a bad response and get mad when it doesn't work.
It’s more explicit on the Left, but definitely informs the Right, going from “quiet part” to “loud part” as you get further right.
What is much more explicit on the Right is viewing all conflict in terms of an existential struggle against Islam—it’s probably the thing that most closely links the rabid Right of 2023 with the rabid Right of 2003.
I think this is an under-appreciated reason for pro-Israel sentiment on the Right.
I think most of the other contenders (excluding Vivek, who's clearly a maniac, and DeSantis, who fancies himself the American Orbán) can be expected to disrespect the norms of liberal democracy and rule of law within the traditional parameters established by their predecessors.
Whether Haley, say, has a shot without Trump?
Meh, maybe.
I don't think the GOP primary electorate would reject DeSantis for his hostility to liberal norms, but they might reject him for his aggressive charmlessness.
As best I can tell, GOP primary voters want to stick it to Them [1] by re-nominating Trump, because They clearly hate Trump and want the nominee to be anybody but Trump.
This is why, e.g., DeSantis' attempts to get to the right of Trump on Culture War issues have gotten him roughly nowhere with MAGA, because nominating him would still be bending to Their whims.
[1] Some blend of the libs, the RINOs, George Soros, the Deep State, Antifa, &c.
Polling has Trump leading the entirety of the non-Trump field by a comfortable margin.
And some of the non-Trump supporters are, like, DeSantis fans who think Trump's problem is he doesn't hire enough Proud Boys, so they'll come home once reality sets in.
Or they're Ramaswamy supporters who think Trump's problem is he thinks we actually landed on the moon.
Republican voters want 100 kilograms of brain worms stuffed into a human skin suit, not Nikki Haley.
Democratic victories are rarely satisfying for Leftist activists, who feel (with some justification, but a less than 20 or 30 years ago) that they will inevitably lose any intra-party battles to set policy when Democrats govern.
To break a snarky one-line butterfly on the wheel, the anti-abortion activists who drive the movement tend to really not give a shit about anything but abortion, and poor hedge fund billionaires don't care about whether abortion is outlawed because why would they?
They're billionaires!
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.
On “Settler Colonialism is Just History”
After the first sentence, I was expecting that this piece would not mention the West Bank at all.
My priors have served me well.
On “What Are the Pro-Palestine Demonstrators Thinking?”
Hamas has repeatedly stated that they make no distinction between Israel within the 1948 borders and Israeli settlements in WB and vowed for repeated attacks.
So Hamas is trying to blur the very line that North said you shouldn't blur if you have the best interests of Israel at heart?
Huh. Wild.
"
I’ll grant that the Israeli view of settlements in the West Bank is, at the very best, dumb as hell.
"
If the answer is no? You may well have no memory of the PLO at all.
"
Yeah I think my disagreement comes from the fact that the hand-washing and fortification failed so disastrously for the Israelis in Gaza.
"
[...]Palestinians have to pull out guns because they have no political power.
I'm sure that is going to work out for them any day now.
"
Outsourced to whom?
"
I don't think it will get them to a deal by any means.
But it would at least stop hurting, without opening the door to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or some successor group turning the West Bank into another base from which to launch attacks.
The logic of continuing to occupy the West Bank is difficult to argue with, as much as I wish it were otherwise. But that logic does little or nothing to justify profiting (in terms of seized land or domestic political gains) on that occupation.
"
Much easier than that, and something that would help considerably with criticism, is to unilaterally stop building settlements in the West Bank.
I'm not going to pretend they're the biggest obstacle to peace, especially as long as Hamas exists, but it's something that Israel can absolutely do unilaterally without needing any sort of security guarantees from anyone else.
On “Open Mic for the week of 11/13/2023”
Hagee is an ulcer, and his presence is a natural consequence of the tendency of the pro-Israel Center and Right to use sentiment about Israel as a better proxy for anti-Semitism than actual anti-Semitism
On “The Posters”
“If there is a ceasefire, I don’t know what comes next. We also don’t know how things end with no ceasefire. We do have an idea that one of these unknowns results in far less death.”
If there is a ceasefire, and Hamas commits another round of atrocities afterward, provoking another Israeli assault on Gaza, will there be more death, or less?
"
This time, it’s the poster-tearers and the OP’s defense of them.
On “What Are the Pro-Palestine Demonstrators Thinking?”
Yeah, agreed the idea that you can just transpose US racial categories to arbitrary foreign conflicts and controversies is a (very dumb) knee jerk that’s much more prevalent on the American Left.
"
Mostly the latter.
I mostly come to OT to read about other people’s opinions, not original reporting, so that struck me as appropriate
"
The composition, size, and general ideological bent of Western anti-Zionists have not remained a constant for the 70 years of Israel’s existence. The idea that people’s opinions on the Israel/Palestine are purely endogenous is pretty weird, but it’s hard to see what other foundation you could build your argument on
On “The Posters”
I can see situations where tearing down posters is a great response.
It's just that, "Well, yeah, the awful crime that poster is depicting definitely happened, and it was actually committed by the people the poster accuses of committing it, but you need to consider the broader context!" isn't one of them.
"
If you can't come up with a good response to effective propaganda coming from the other side, you can always come up with a bad response and get mad when it doesn't work.
On “What Are the Pro-Palestine Demonstrators Thinking?”
It’s more explicit on the Left, but definitely informs the Right, going from “quiet part” to “loud part” as you get further right.
What is much more explicit on the Right is viewing all conflict in terms of an existential struggle against Islam—it’s probably the thing that most closely links the rabid Right of 2023 with the rabid Right of 2003.
I think this is an under-appreciated reason for pro-Israel sentiment on the Right.
"
There’s endless confusion (and worse) caused by blurring the lines between Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank.
On “My 2024 Voting Strategy (November 2023 edition)”
I think most of the other contenders (excluding Vivek, who's clearly a maniac, and DeSantis, who fancies himself the American Orbán) can be expected to disrespect the norms of liberal democracy and rule of law within the traditional parameters established by their predecessors.
Whether Haley, say, has a shot without Trump?
Meh, maybe.
I don't think the GOP primary electorate would reject DeSantis for his hostility to liberal norms, but they might reject him for his aggressive charmlessness.
"
As best I can tell, GOP primary voters want to stick it to Them [1] by re-nominating Trump, because They clearly hate Trump and want the nominee to be anybody but Trump.
This is why, e.g., DeSantis' attempts to get to the right of Trump on Culture War issues have gotten him roughly nowhere with MAGA, because nominating him would still be bending to Their whims.
[1] Some blend of the libs, the RINOs, George Soros, the Deep State, Antifa, &c.
On “The Republican Albatross”
Polling has Trump leading the entirety of the non-Trump field by a comfortable margin.
And some of the non-Trump supporters are, like, DeSantis fans who think Trump's problem is he doesn't hire enough Proud Boys, so they'll come home once reality sets in.
Or they're Ramaswamy supporters who think Trump's problem is he thinks we actually landed on the moon.
Republican voters want 100 kilograms of brain worms stuffed into a human skin suit, not Nikki Haley.
"
Representative Beth Lear (R-Galena) stated, “No amendment can overturn the God given rights with which we were born.”
Not "with which we were conceived"?
On “About Last Night: Election 2023 Edition”
Democratic victories are rarely satisfying for Leftist activists, who feel (with some justification, but a less than 20 or 30 years ago) that they will inevitably lose any intra-party battles to set policy when Democrats govern.
"
To break a snarky one-line butterfly on the wheel, the anti-abortion activists who drive the movement tend to really not give a shit about anything but abortion, and poor hedge fund billionaires don't care about whether abortion is outlawed because why would they?
They're billionaires!
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.