58 thoughts on “Open Mic for the week of 11/18/2024

  1. Welp. Joe and Mika have announced that they went out to Mar-a-Lago to re-open communication lines with Trump.

    There are a number of various theories behind this.

    The one that makes sense to me is that ratings have cratered. I don’t know whether it was Joe/Mika’s idea or the higher-ups’ but “we get paid a lot and if we can’t bring in numbers, they’ll bring in someone who can” is a fairly straightforward calculus.Report

  2. Tracing Woodgrains has a pretty good take:

    A lot of Dem tastemakers (eg @ezraklein and @PodSaveAmerica) have been discussing the need to widen their tent. How can “heterodox” institutional critics usefully interact with them?

    My sense is that three mostly distinct blobs have formed:

    1) The progressive blob, the omnicause, the Groups. Abolish the police, ceasefire now, trans liberation now, detracking, cancel student loan debt, restorative justice—virtually every stereotypically fashionable left-wing idea is championed by these guys. They either hate or are “too cool” for the Democratic Party, but they’re a major force in Dem politics and many staffers and people on the ground sympathize with them.

    2) The institutionalists, the strategists, the Establishment. This cluster wants the Democratic Party in specific to gain and retain power. They’re usually sympathetic to the values of the progressive blob while disagreeing on practicality and specifics, and they perpetually have to run away from the unpopular and destructive ideas championed by the progressive blob while still pandering to them enough to keep the peace.

    3) The disillusioned center, the “heterodox,” the institutional critics, the thorns in the side who vote Dem while objecting to and feuding with progressives on many specifics.

    I don’t know how much room for discussion there is between the progressive blob and the disillusioned center right now. They’re oil and water, mostly (in my admittedly biased view) because the progressive blob has been working extremely hard over many years to push the views of the disillusioned center outside the bounds of polite society.

    Until recently, I felt mostly the same about the institutionalists, and I don’t think there’s much communication between those two groups except as mediated by the few who run in both circles, like @mattyglesias. They’re polite, but they don’t want to upset the progressives, they have a certain unease and distaste for the disillusioned center, and the distrust is often mutual. But they’re pragmatists, and they are capable of reading political winds.

    I have spent most of my time in disillusioned center spaces, engaging mostly with people who I can more-or-less take for granted understand and are sympathetic to my critiques of progressives. That’s easy and rewarding. I think institutionalists are saying the right things in the abstract right now, but I see very little true engagement/overlap between the two groups, and it goes both ways. Much of it, inasmuch as fault could be attributed, is my fault: trying to speak directly to institutionalists seems complicated, and I’ve followed the path of least resistance.

    My question, then: say someone in the disillusioned center is serious about making more inroads with, and working more productively alongside, Democratic institutionalists. Where’s the right place to begin?

    Personally, I think that the omnicause is a problem but it’s also held by the only folks in the coalition that know how to reward friends and punish enemies (at the cost of also punishing “enemies”).

    But the downside is that punishing 80% friends will, at the margins, create 70% friends. And then 60% friends.

    And then you’ve got to deal with the whole “swing voter thing” and if you haven’t picked up more friends in your tent, then all you’ve done is done a better job of rewarding friends by making the VIP part of the club even more exclusive (and, thus, “better”).Report

    1. I’m sure what the Democrats need is more right wing takes from people who can’t stand them. “Why not just be the Republican Party-lite? I mean, it’s failed every time, but if you want swing voters, the key is to not distinguish yourself from the other party.”Report

      1. You’re still looking at it from the vantage point of left vs right.

        Trump didn’t win because he tacked right.

        He tacked populist.

        If going a bit more populist will betray the core lefties, then you might already be in a place where you’re better off moving away from.Report

        1. In a way. The natural rejoinder to that though is to ask whether what Trump and the Republicans are likely to do to Medicaid, food stamps, etc. really constitutes ‘populism’ in any meaningful way.

          The question for Democrats is how they’ve allowed themselves to become so obsessed with niche causes and groups so tiny and marginalized they might not even exist that they can no longer communicate with the people they’re supposed to be sticking up for.Report

            1. Definitely populist! The question I’m asking though is whether the material benefit to the marginal citizen of doing that outweighs the loss of them or some family member being kicked off their health insurance. The math to that I would think is pretty obvious given that the EBT is almost certainly being paid for by someone else (i.e. upper middle class and above). And to be clear I’m saying this as someone who thinks illegal aliens shouldn’t get EBT.Report

              1. There are two types of “populist.” One type of populist seeks government help for the down and out. Another is more interested in working out resentments against folks not like themselves. Pick your poison and you have your answer.Report

              1. Here’s Pew Research from September.

                Health Care is at the top of the list for Harris Supporters (followed by the economy and abortion).

                Does that mean “Medicare for All”? Off the top of my head, I’d guess that it doesn’t but is more of a “I want the iron triangle to not exist anymore” but I’m cynical like that.

                But, sure, let’s turn that into “that’s what they want: Medicare for All”.

                They also seem to have strong opinions on the economy and, given the election, a couple of other things that the Democratic Establishment did a good job of waving away.Report

    2. “Personally, I think that the omnicause is a problem but it’s also held by the only folks in the coalition that know how to reward friends and punish enemies (at the cost of also punishing “enemies”).”

      And I think one problem is that for a lot of people, punishing enemies is the reward they’re looking for.Report

      1. That’s not really how I read it. The omnicause adherents are a combination of 2 groups. The first is that small cadre of permanent activist true believers that are a normal part of any democracy (you know, the ones that ran the campus food co-op), some of whom might actually have some sort of harder Marxist or leftist commitments that are in tension with their fellow travelers and the Democratic party more generally. They’ll be enthusiastically languishing in some odd, ineffectual non-profit no one has ever heard of for the rest of their lives no matter what, and they’d be doing that no matter who is in charge among the Democrats.

        You then have a much larger, more malleable group of over achievers chasing a zeitgeist. They were and remain the upwardly mobile enforcers. But the zeitgeist is changing and their principles were never that strong or coherent to begin with, to say nothing of the tension between their stated beliefs and their goals in life. They’re the Biden staffers that staged a walk out over Gaza but then walked back in a few hours later fully expecting to keep their prestigious jobs that they conspicuously did not resign from.

        Which isnt to say they haven’t engaged in what is IMO the ugliest component of human nature, that being cruelty justified by self righteousness. But for them it’s a means to an end, that being their personal advancement in the meritocracy, not an end in itself.Report

          1. In an administration that won campaigning on a myriad policies I think are awful, the appointment of cranks, hacks, thieves, and washed out celebrities is a positive thing. All I want for Christmas is the Trump admin flailing around ineffectually for two years until disgusted voters landslide the Dems into Congress in 2026.Report

            1. A Project 2025 guy is going to head the FCC and use it to conduct witch hunts against Trump’s critics. These cranks, hacks, thieves, and washed out celebrities can cause wreckage beyond imagination.Report

        1. The optimistic version is theoretically they will all squabble with each other, potentially be easily outsmarted, and not get much done or do much damage.

          The pessimistic version is that incompetents and hacks can still do a hell of a lot of damage, they will demoralize enough long term civil servants, make them quit, and the positions will be filled with malicious actors and/or incompetents who will cause more damage, and if/when Democrats manage to regain control of the executive, it will be hard to rebuild it all.

          Other pessimistic outlooks is that the Project 2025 staff wants these incompetents in charge because they are maximalist-bolsheviks.

          TL/DR, don’t assume clowns are harmless.Report

          1. I’m not assuming they’re harmless; avoiding harm was not the option the electorate chose for us. The question is which group is likely to cause less harm: the grifters, cranks and hacks or the unphotogenic driven fanatics. I think the former group is the group more likely to ineptly cause less harm through sheer ineffectualness. If you want to lay out a brief for the latter group go for it.Report

        2. There is also the fact of this emergent pattern:

          Hegseth: Multiple affairs and now information that he paid off a woman to dismiss a sexual assault charge.

          Gaetz: Almost certainly paid a 17 year old for sex. We know he paid other young women for sex.

          McMahon: Stood by her husband as he was credibly accused of sexual harassment and potentially rape.

          Trump’s first run and admin were basically revenge for Obama making fun of him.

          Trump’s third run and admin are going to be revenge at Biden and women especially E. Jean Carroll and anyone else who accused him of sexual assault. Apparently Hegseth interviewed three times in the first Trump term for Veteran’s Affairs but was rejected because of his extramarital affairs.Report

  3. I wonder how much overlap there is between people who think that the corporate income tax cut in the TCJA was a giveaway to the rich and people who think the stock market hitting record highs is proof that Bidenomics works.Report

    1. Yeah that was sort of like using an armored presidential limo to deliver a pizza (but only if the limo is blown up upon delivery). I dunno wtf Putin is thinking on this except maybe it’s some kind of posturing tactic for Trump?Report

          1. Then show me the mushroom cloud. Russia has lots of open space. They’ve pulled out of the test-ban treaty. They have lots of reasons to saber rattle.

            All they’d have to do is have one test and every earth quake sensor in the world would confirm that they still have nukes and aren’t bluffing.

            They have no reason to not test and every reason to test…

            …unless they can’t.Report

            1. Maybe. But that’s a hell of a thing for us to gamble on. Even a nuclear missile that fails to detonate properly could be a huge mess. Or if they know some may be faulty it could cause them to fire multiple in hopes that at least one works.Report

              1. Every day that goes past without a mushroom cloud showing they’re serious makes the gamble less of a gamble.

                They would lose nothing by a test and gain a lot. Far as I can tell, the only reason to not test is if they can’t.Report

              2. There are also risks in giving in to Russia’s demands. There are well established international norms about what counts as a valid reason to nuke someone and providing arms to your enemy isn’t on that list. If we let people have whatever they want just because they threaten to use nukes, we’re encouraging nuclear brinkmanship and handing geopolitical power to people who already have far too much of it.

                Refusing to take the threat seriously may be the less risky course.Report

        1. If they really wanted to prove they still had nukes they should test one.

          They could test as many as they wanted until one of them worked and then they could claim they only tested one.

          That they haven’t done so STRONGLY suggests they don’t have them anymore. The budget for their maintenance was stolen and they’ve gone bad.

          Nuke maintenance is very expensive, they’re never tested, and no one would notice if it’s not done. They can’t even do maintenance on things that are very high profile.Report

            1. Russia Withdraws Ratification of Nuclear Test Ban Treaty

              In an unprecedented move, Russian President Vladimir Putin officially rescinded Russia’s ratification of the treaty banning nuclear test explosions anywhere in the world Nov. 2.

              https://www.armscontrol.org/blog/2023-11/nuclear-disarmament-monitor

              That was Nov 2, 2023. That was saber rattling because we’re backing Ukraine. So there’s no reason to not test a nuke and every reason to do so.

              Unless of course, he can’t test a nuke because all of his went stale a few years after they stole the maintenance needed to keep them functional.

              We spend $10B a year keeping ours functional.

              They don’t have the ability to upgrade their flagship aircraft carrier which has been openly sitting in dry dock for years. They don’t have the ability to get military grade tires for their military trucks. They don’t have the ability to do basic maintenance on anything.

              On a system that broken and corrupt, they really spent Billions on nukes they’d never use and never test? Someone pocketed the money and lied about how functional their nukes are.Report

              1. Withdrawing from the treaty wouldn’t prohibit other countries from taking actions; the treaty is self-binding, but breaking the convention does not prohibit other nations from acting.

                But to your main point; Russia may *also* demonstrate that the nukes themselves work in some fashion. But honestly, it’s much more important to demonstrate that the delivery mechanisms work than the nukes themselves.

                Gambling that the nukes are all duds? That’s just a bad gamble if the delivery systems work.Report

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