SCOTUS Strikes Again

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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59 Responses

  1. The Roberts Court, after ignoring the plain language of the 15th in gutting the VRA, has earned no assumption of good faith on racial matters.Report

  2. Chip Daniels says:

    Radicalism begets radicalism.
    For the average layperson, the court’s logic is becoming increasingly and every more obviously absurd and unbelievable.

    Political remedies like expanding the court are going to become popular enough to reach a tipping point.Report

  3. Philip H says:

    Conservatives continue to think racial problems have all been solved because laws were passed and SCOTUS decided things. Of course they thought the same thing after the 14th and 15th Amendments were passed, and we know how that turned out.

    America is not a post-racism nation by any stretch, and a Supreme Court that acts otherwise is becoming a threat to our black and brown fellow citizens.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

      I don’t know if you consider this article’s author conservative, but he spends about a third of the article saying the opposite of this.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

        He calls himself a Christian conservative/libertarian so I take him at his word.

        As to the OP – he says very plainly that this decision may not be the best one but AA is past its time because we have come so far. Even though California provides solid data that we haven’t.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

          California banned Affirmative Action in 1996.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

            That’s my point. We have several decades showing that for black and Latino students, the end of affirmative action meant fewer of them getting into and then graduating from state universities. This decision will drive the rest of the country that way.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

              Is that a bad thing? Are we really sure that affirmative action is currently a good thing?

              We take large numbers of people and put them into institutions where they’re the weakest student in the class and also make them take out huge loans for the experience.

              If this is going to result in successfully uplifted populations, shouldn’t we have seen that by now?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Is it a bad thing that fewer Americans will be better educated? Why yes, yes it is. Very bad actually.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                This kinda assumes facts not in evidence.

                Is someone who has a bachelor’s in “Communications” and $50,000 in debt to State University “better educated” than someone who, instead, went to Compass Directional State and got a degree in “Communcations” and is $20,000 in debt?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                Is it a bad thing that fewer Americans will be better educated? Why yes, yes it is. Very bad actually.

                We have so few minority STEM grads because of AA mismatching. Send someone into a college where they’re the weakest student and they get a softer major.

                The really stupid thing is majors are predictive of life fiscal outcome while name-of-college is not(*). Engineering majors earn X on average regardless of where they go for their degree.

                And that’s at best. At worst they end up with no degree and a lot of debt.

                It should be easy to prove that AA is really good for the people benefiting from it. It’s damning it’s supporters aren’t pointing to studies proclaiming that.

                If we had that then we could try to decide whether the benefits of AA are worth engaging in racial discrimination. As it is, it’s possible AA is a net negative for the people it’s designed to help.

                (*) Outside of an extremely few well known schools like Harvard Law.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter says:

                A UCLA prof did a study which shows getting rid of AA would increase the number of black lawyers by 8% because of the mismatch effect. This was published this 20 years ago. There have been other studies which claim mismatch is real.

                https://web.archive.org/web/20130511043833/http://www.law.berkeley.edu/faculty/rubinfeldd/SanderFINAL.pdf

                Attempts at refuting this look biased. There’s a 2016 India study which claims there is no mismatch effect although 90% IIT-Roorkee dropouts are members of a backward caste.Report

              • PD Shaw in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Since I don’t think affirmative action in higher education has ever been significant or authorized by SCOTUS precedent, I would place more importance on the impact of a “diversity” rationale on limiting the use of any racial preference to address historical legacies of slavery and Jim Crow.

                The Bakke decision in 1978 which provided one Justices claim for diversity consideration on First Amendment grounds, Cornell West estimates that about 95% of black students at Harvard were “Black people from the United States who had been enslaved in Jim and Jane Crow.” Now they might make up ten percent. Of course, Harvard won’t release the numbers because they might look bad.

                https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/10/15/gaasa-scrut/Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to PD Shaw says:

                While I was reading up on this I found serious claims that two thirds of current Harvard Black students don’t have all four grandparents black and from the US. They’re either immigrants, children of immigrants, or from mixed race families. Similarly the bulk of them are from “elite” families.

                So in theory (and probably in practice) Harvard could keep it’s current black student population intact.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Having worked regularly with black students from HBCUs pursuing stem students – as well as their professors – for most of the last decade I can tell you that’s not true. It’s not academic mismatch – it’s a lack of students and professors who look like them. It’s a lack of social and cultural support systems. It’s a lack of understanding how to navigate university systems. None of which are about grades or test scores. An atmospheric science professor at an HBCU I have worked with in the past said he wouldn’t send his undergraduate students to do graduate work at an R1 unless he knew the receiving professor personally and knew his student had social support. Which again is not about academics. Taking away a major mechanism to create commmunities of diverse students – which is what California tells us is the result of banning AA – will further erode the few gains we have made getting minorities into stem.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                I found myself wondering “what are the demographics of college dropouts?”

                Those number are out there!

                Numbers for Asians:
                72% of students finished their degrees, with 61% at the same college and 8% at a different college (ThinkImpact, 2021)

                Numbers for African-Americans:
                46% of students finished their degrees, with 35% at the same college and 7% at a different college (ThinkImpact, 2021)

                Numbers for American Indians:
                In both two-year and four-year colleges, 36% of American Indians drop out (EDI, 2021).

                Numbers for HispanX:
                55% of students finished their degrees, with 44% at the same college and 8% at a different college (ThinkImpact, 2021)

                Numbers for white students:
                67% of students finished their degrees, with 52% at the same college and 11% at a different college (ThinkImpact, 2021)Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                None of which are about grades or test scores.

                Those are stand ins for grades and test scores. Note also if those were problems in and of themselves then we’d see that with other groups. Asians for example.

                The first time the University of Michigan got taken to court they were forced to publish their internal admission point system for AA grades and test scores.

                Being Black was worth the same amount of points as two full grade ranks. So the Black “D+” was the same as the White “B+”.

                After they’d lost the lawsuit, the admission department got much better at obfuscating how the system worked.

                Their admission numbers didn’t change at all so the underlying mismatch issue must have remained the same.

                So they were still putting D+ students in there with B+ students and then being just shocked when they fail classes at higher rates and have to take easier majors.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

                “Stand-in” is too polite for “a lack of students and professors who look like them”. That’s either an excuse or a sign of something seriously wrong (racism or emotional impairment). I can understand the need for social support; teenagers are fragile. But a kid who can’t learn from or interact with people of a different race, that’s messed up.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Pinky says:

                IMHO it’s a lot less “a different race” and more “D+ expected to take classes with B+”.

                If that’s where you start, then yes, we should expect the student needs a lot of support of various types. We should also expect a much higher failure rate, and we should expect they have to take softer majors.

                So… is this a good idea? We’re getting a lot more people in college, but mismatching is brutal.

                FAICT this program makes a lot of sense for addressing racism/sexism. O’Connor did quite well in law school but couldn’t find a law job because they didn’t want to hire a female lawyer. That’s not the world we live in today.

                What’s going on now is activists insist on percentage of population and we end up with serious mismatching.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                When A+ atmospheric science studnets at howard won’t go to graduate school at Iowa – which has a world renowned meteorology program – because no black professors are there, is that D+ students being forced to do B+ work? Really?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                That seems to be in a different category of “THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!” than “Sorry, Asians need not apply”, though.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                Even beyond that I am not sure I see how the proposed solution is responsive to the problem or what it would mean at scale. I mean, are we really going to say people can only learn from those who share superficial similarities in appearance? Seems pretty dubious. Even if there are some cultural challenges it’s worth remembering that people travel from other countries to attend American universities and do fine with way bigger gaps between them and their professors than the divisions between white and black Americans.Report

              • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

                Our findings indicate that students who remain in STEM majors report a greater sense of belonging than those who leave STEM. Additionally, we found that students from underrepresented groups are less likely to feel they belong. These findings highlight structural and cultural features of universities, as well as STEM curricula and pedagogy, that continue to privilege white males.

                https://stemeducationjournal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40594-018-0115-6Report

              • Philip H in reply to Philip H says:

                However, as many have argued, this passive imagery betrays the fact that, in many ways, the experience for minoritized scholars is more like a vicious or hostile obstacle course5,6,7,8,9,10 with barriers that have been put in place to slow down or exclude certain groups. To address the lack of inclusion within the workforce, this exclusionary obstacle course should be placed in the context of scientific racism, colonial legacies and systemic biases that permeate our disciplines and institutions11,12,13. We argue that in the geosciences and beyond, we must first acknowledge the cultural and structural barriers that this hostile obstacle course presents before we can dismantle them.

                https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-021-00868-0Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                So what?

                If we assume this is correct(*) what do you want to do about it? Affirmative Action engages in racial discrimination.

                Ergo the level of justification it should have to exist should be extremely high. Showing that America is so racist that Obama’s kids need it to go to Harvard would do it.

                You need to show AA is a good thing for society and the bulk of people who partake in it. Ideally you’d also show that Asians also benefit from “No Asians Allowed”.

                The big problem is proof that AA is a good thing doesn’t seem to exist. We have an A+ student who wants to learn from Black Profs. Balanced against that we have D+ students failing to get a degree and ending up with student debt. We also have serious discrimination against Asians and serious compromises on our ethics and values.

                (*) Lots of squishy terms being used there and lots of assumptions. “Sense of belonging in the field” might be a problem if you’re interested in interacting with people and the field is about interacting with things.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                Maybe we should have HACUs and then everybody will be happy.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                Why is it an outrage?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                That sounds like racism, or fear of racism (which is a common generator of racism).Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                You really have no idea what it’s like to be a Black man, or a Latina woman, or transgenered in the US today do you? ANd you don’t seem t have absorbed any of the multitude of examples laid at your feet. Which is at best intellectually lazy.

                That aside, its hard for a person who has little to no economic, political or cultural power to be racist, since racism is at its heart a power dynamic.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                That aside, its hard for a person who has little to no economic, political or cultural power to be racist, since racism is at its heart a power dynamic.

                When I was a kid, racism was an absolute relationship.

                Now it’s a positional one.

                What could possibly go wrong?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Still pretty absolute Jaybird. In some places more so then others.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Perhaps some cultural power will alleviate things.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                In many places economic and political power have. Which is what a lot of the GOP is seeking to stop with rulings like this.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                This seems to be asserted rather than argued. It seems that more harm is being done by pushing people into debt they don’t benefit from in the middle of the pack than is given by the far outliers.

                I mean, just using a vulgar utilitarian calculus.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                This seems to be asserted rather than argued.

                That. That exactly. The closest thing to a workable example of AA as a force for good is (somehow) helping an A+ student.

                There is no evaluation of overall costs and benefits… presumably because the case against AA is so overwhelming.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                Absolute in the sense of being independent of the relative power of the races. That is to say, if person A thinks or acts to favor group X over group Y, he is thinking or acting in a racist way.

                That’s the nature of the term “racism” from Jaybird’s youth, and it’s something that hasn’t been refuted in any way. But it has to be rejected to accept critical theory. Well, I don’t reject it.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                Your A+ science student can go anywhere. With or without AA, he can go anywhere and be successful.

                If he’s going to pick his program based on the skin color of the 21 Professors, then that’s his choice but I question whether it’s a good one.

                An A+ student doesn’t need to have his GPA increased by two full levels so the good news for him is mismatching isn’t going to be an issue.

                However D+ to B+ is a fact. It was the actual amount of shifting that U of M needed to do. We don’t know how much shifting they do now because they’ve gotten better at hiding that, but that they do hide it speaks volumes.

                I’m not very concerned about the success chances for an A+ student who checks people’s skin colors before deciding if he can learn science from them.

                I’m very concerned about the success chances of a student who is two full grade ranks below the average for their fellow students. That seems like a bad idea even without loading him up with student debt.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

              Honestly, I think that the entire university system has mixed up its inputs and its outputs and student debt is one of the results of that.

              And it’s going to get worse.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

          So, he doesn’t think racial problems have all been solved. I don’t either. That’s zero for two conservatives who think what you just said we think.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

            You both – and most other conservatives here – also don’t think we need to preserve the laws trying to address them, like the voting rights act or affirmative action. So color me deeply skeptical.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

              Just as long as you acknowledge that the way you described conservatives was wrong. That’s all I’m asking for. You don’t have to agree with us, but you should be able to describe us.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

              If the laws do things that are heinous, then they should be eliminated or massively reformed.

              Using someone’s grandparents to decide whether they’re guilty is heinous. Using someone’s skin color against them for college admissions is also heinous.

              If the justification is just that Team Blue wants to virtue signal that they’re trying to do something, then that’s not enough.

              For affirmative action, you could justify it’s existence by showing that America is such a racist country that Obama’s children would never be able to go to college with out it.

              I’m sure there’s other justifications that would work, but we need to start with the realization that it’s tools are heinous and it needs strong justification for the current reality.Report

        • Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H says:

          You are once again committing the fallacy of assuming that differences in outcomes must be due to racism or other systemic disadvantages, and that simply isn’t true, as has been explained to you multiple times.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Brandon Berg says:

            Then what your explanation for dramatic drops in admissions of blacks and Latinos into California’s universities after affirmative action was banned 25 years ago?Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

              Then what your explanation for dramatic drops in admissions of blacks and Latinos into California’s universities after affirmative action was banned 25 years ago?

              Ideally the explanation is we’re not sending to college marginally educated people who shouldn’t go to college. That would also mean we’re not loading them up with student debt, often in combo with them not getting any degree.

              However given how ubiquitous AA is, I would expect a lot of people who used to go to California’s colleges with AA go to schools in other states instead.

              Big picture College Admission boards are run by social justice warriors. If you’re going to claim racism is the root problem for lower admissions, then you need to explain how/why Team Blue’s social justice warriors became racists.Report

              • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I think this is an over estimation of what is actually happening on both sides. Most institutions are not particularly competitive in terms of admission. Meaning that the people who probably shouldn’t be going to college at all aren’t benefiting from AA, but are being poorly served in a different way, by spending money on marginal programs that maybe shouldn’t exist at all, or at least not in their current form. What AA is doing at the ivy league is getting acceptance for black and hispanic students who would probably otherwise be at state and regional institutions, and forcing state and regional institutions to take students who would otherwise (hopefully) be the most successful of the non competitive programs.

                Which isn’t to say there isn’t a mismatch going on at some level, I think there almost certainly is. It’s just that it’s at the level of people who were likely college bound no matter what and whose resumes make them eligible for some sort of non-joke higher ed.

                For example none of those kids in Baltimore we periodically debate here are benefiting from AA. It’s the children of Nigerian immigrants or kids who have a hispanic parent and would normally go to a state flagship that are getting the boost into Yale.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to InMD says:

                We send about two thirds of kids to college.

                I don’t see how we get “percentage of population” without also having “people who are seriously not prepared for college” given various other stats.

                That’s in addition to various other mismatches and distortions.Report

            • Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H says:

              The lower average academic performance of black and Latino students relative to white and especially Asian students is one of the most well-documented and replicated findings in education. The black-white gap is on the order of a standard deviation, and the Latino-white gap is a bit smaller. A decline in admittance of URM students was a predictable result of admissions offices ceasing to discriminate in their favor, and the size of the decline was an indication of the extent to which they had been discriminating in favor of URMs and under AA.

              I’m not even sure which part of that you think is evidence of racism.

              That aside, while I don’t have time to dig into the details right now, I’m not sure you have the facts right. IIRC, URM admission at the most selective UC universities fell sharply shortly after Prop. 209 passed, and then quickly increased again as universities found ways to discriminate against whites and Asians without violating the letter of the law.

              But I believe that this mostly resulted in URM applicants being admitted to less selective schools, not to a substantial decrease in URM enrollment at universities statewide. Since most universities have non-competitive admissions, everyone who really wanted to go to college and wasn’t obviously unprepared for higher education (though even this is negotiable; I went to a fairly selective school, and even there we had remedial classes) should have been able to get in somewhere.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Brandon Berg says:

                While SFA produced no students to testify against affirmative action in their trials, Chen was one of eight Asian American students — current and former — who spoke on behalf of Harvard and affirmative action.

                “Pitting Asian American communities against, in particular, Black and Latinx communities,” Chen says, “is about undermining the accomplishments of a lot of Black and Latinx students.”

                There is a common narrative that Black and Latino students who were admitted into schools like Harvard and University of North Carolina are not qualified, not ready to succeed in college.

                “We cannot deny that,” says Jeff Wang. “Because we see that African American and Latinos, their graduation rates are lower because they were not fully prepared.”

                But according to the U.S. Department of Education in 2021, Black Harvard students had a 96% graduation rate – the same graduation rate that male students of all races had. Hispanic students rate that same year was 97% – the same as white students.

                A recent Gallup poll found that Black and Latino students are more at risk for dropping out, not because they aren’t capable or prepared.

                They leave because they are caretakers for children, parents, or other family members. Then there is the issue of money, and the burdens of student debt. Another reason? Many students of color can feel psychologically unsafe. Majority-white campuses can be isolating and even toxic to underrepresented students — something that the likely drop in Black and Latino students post affirmative action will only make worse, says Sally Chen.

                “Attacking their belonging at these educational institutions stokes fear of scarcity, a sense of fighting over crumbs, when ultimately the solutions we need are to expand the pie,” she says.

                https://www.npr.org/2023/07/02/1183981097/affirmative-action-asian-americans-pocReport

  4. Jaybird says:

    Erica Marsh strikes me as being an obvious troll.

    Like, that’s a pretty good joke. “This is what liberals actually believe!”Report

  5. Under a merit-based system, every white and Asian kid will get in.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

      A fun paragraph from an NYT opinion piece from five years ago:

      At the time that she was deposed, Ms. Pedrick did not know that the Harvard admissions office consistently gave Asian-American applicants low personality ratings — the lowest assigned collectively to any racial group. She did not know that Harvard’s own Office of Institutional Research had found that if the university selected its students on academic criteria alone, the Asian share of the Harvard student body would leap from 19 percent to 43 percent. She did not know that though Asians were consistently the highest academically performing group among Harvard applicants, they earned admission at a rate lower than any other racial group between 2000 and 2019.

      My favorite thing from that piece was the M.I.T.’s dean of admissions referring to a Korean-American student as “yet another textureless math grind”.Report

  6. Brandon Berg says:

    The share of black and Hispanic Americans who are in the middle class rivals that of whites.

    Unfortunately, this doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. Take a look at the source for that claim. Yes, 47% of black and 49% of Hispanic adults are middle-income compared to 51% of white adults, but black and Hispanic adults are far more likely to be low-income and far less likely to be high-income. It’s not shown here, but the black and Hispanic median incomes are also significantly below the white median incomes. The difference is even more extreme for Asians, Part of that is age—white Americans are on average several years older than black and Hispanic Americans—but that doesn’t explain the whole gap, and it certainly doesn’t explain the black-Asian gap, which is even larger, because white supremacy works in mysterious ways.

    Of course, this doesn’t mean that black-white income gaps are caused by racism, any more than white-Asian or gentile-Jewish gaps are. There are very real and so far largely intractable racial gaps in academic and job performance that explain the gaps.

    On the other hand, blacks still lag behind whites in college degrees and attendance.

    There’s an interesting phenomenon that doesn’t really get talked about, which is that when you control for test scores, black students are more likely than white students to attend and graduate from college. For example, 17% of black test takers score over 1000 on the SAT, and 23% of black Americans age 25-29 have college degrees, while for non-Hispanic whites those numbers are 53% and 42% (Asians: 71% and 63%). Whites are more than three times as likely as blacks to score over 1100, but less than twice as likely to have a bachelor’s degree.

    To be clear, this does not mean that the SAT is biased against black students. Black students do not get better grades in college than score-matched white students. Nevertheless, they do attend and finish college at higher rates than score-matched white students.

    I don’t think we can attribute this to affirmative action, because most colleges have non-competitive admissions. Nobody of any race fails to get into any college at all because of affirmative action or the lack thereof. It only affects who gets into selective universities. I suspect that a number of different factors contribute. Black students tend to come from wealthier families than score-matched while students. Athletics probably plays a role as well. Possibly black students are on average more conscientious or value education more than score-matched white students, since they have to study harder to achieve the same scores due to the gap in g.

    Anyway, given that black students actually get degrees at higher rates than white and Asian students with similar academic ability, it’s hard to argue that higher education is biased against them.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Brandon Berg says:

      Correction:

      For example, 17% of black test takers score over 1000 on the SAT, and 23% of black Americans age 25-29 have college degrees

      This should say over 1100, and it should say bachelor’s degrees rather than college degrees.Report

  7. Brandon Berg says:

    The article mentions in passing that Asian-Americans have the highest poverty rate in NYC. I see this mentioned a lot, and while a lot of people disingenuously try to pass it off as nationally representative instead of a weird local phenomenon in order to promote the “Model Minority Myth” myth, it does seem to be legitimate.

    This is something I’ve been thinking about on and off for years. Why are there so many poor Asians in NYC, when nationally they’re the wealthiest racial group and have poverty rates only slightly above non-Hispanic whites?

    I guess it must have something to do with older immigrants with limited English skills. Or maybe it disproportionately attracts low-skilled service workers, while tech workers tend to go to the west coast?Report