The Good Place, Ethics 101, and Spoilers, Spoilers, Spoilers

Jaybird

Jaybird is Birdmojo on Xbox Live and Jaybirdmojo on Playstation's network. He's been playing consoles since the Atari 2600 and it was Zork that taught him how to touch-type. If you've got a song for Wednesday, a commercial for Saturday, a recommendation for Tuesday, an essay for Monday, or, heck, just a handful a questions, fire off an email to AskJaybird-at-gmail.com

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47 Responses

  1. Since Deshaun Watson, the Browns have become a negative.Report

  2. The very last scene shows what remains of Eleanor (somehow) causing a nice thing to happen for Michael. So the Door isn’t annihilation; it’s some sort of transformation.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

      The firefly? Okay. So it’s a Bodhisattva variant?Report

      • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

        It’s not at all explicit about What Comes Next. Which is probably appropriate.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

          But it spent the first 3 seasons and the first 12 episodes of the 4th being explicit about what comes next. The Bad Place has various flatteners and chainsaw bears and The Good Place has milkshakes that make you feel so good that you don’t notice how it kind of sucks.

          The middle place has warm beer and Cannonball Run II.

          Sure, I could see how we’d need something better than that, I guess. But the hint just seems to be that the worthwhile thing is either making Purgatories for others or helping earthlings to get nicer Purgatories.

          Don’t get me wrong, it’s a sweet thought… but we’re not really seeing a man’s reach exceeding his grasp, are we?Report

          • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

            What comes next phase 1 is Heaven, but could it stay Heaven for eternity, or would it pall, as everything does? We see that explicitly, as the trip Eleanor plans to keep Chidi enthusiastic about Heaven didn’t work, because it was all things they’d done before. (The original idea of Heaven would have palled even faster: eternity in one place, among a few dozen people?)

            What comes after that is left to our imaginations, which is smart.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

              I suppose that this is all a matter of taste but I know of at least a few people who take great pleasure in the small and familiar and “the novel” is, at best, a nice place to visit.

              I’m sure that there are people out there who would get sick of heaven in a matter of years, not decades.

              There are interpretations of heaven that make this heaven’s problem.

              There are also other interpretations.Report

  3. Marchmaine says:

    I remember trying to ‘figure out’ what they were trying to do with the show… did it have a point? Was it all just going to be random twists/turns based on Internet feedback plus pop-morality? A sort of LOST part deux? I’ll say it seems to have had a better idea of what it wanted to do than LOST and your summation is good. I might go a little harder on some of it’s foundational theories… but, then again, why? I’m not entirely sure if it was actually proselytizing or just recognizing that the story needed a literal and metaphorical exit strategy.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine says:

      A generic “you should be better people” message is a pretty good message!

      “Be kinder to each other”, “Try to be less selfish”, that sort of thing. Those are all good messages.

      But Eleanor was the only one that we really saw Become Good. Chidi seems to have lost flaws that were chaining him and that’s becoming good, I guess. I found myself confused by the characters of Tahani and Jason. Those guys were mostly “tell, don’t show” and they didn’t overcome “sin” as much as they overcame “trauma”.

      “These guys are likable!”, the show seemed to yell. “COME ON!!! ROOT FOR THEM! COME ON!!!! COME ON!!!!”Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

        Right. The ride was mostly fun; it struck the right notes on absurd likability precisely to keep the tone aligned with the sort of philosophizing it wanted to do. In our hearts, we’re all Blake Bortles fans too.

        Now, the fact that it had an ending at all is a huge plus in my TV rating system. It becomes somewhat intelligible for having an actual ending, and I think you’re correct in what the ending implies.Report

        • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

          I only saw the show by proxy (my wife watched it and I was vaguely around/in the room enough to see the major beats in the story but don’t quiz me on the details). I think it would be interesting to discover whether the ending was known from the outset. If it was then based on what I saw it seems to me that the net message was the need to come to terms with annihilation as the only means of reaching peace, and not something we should fear. Of course it also as best as I can tell didn’t dig too deeply into the implications of that for those of us still in the mortal plane. Which from my perspective would be mostly not good.

          Conversely, if they didn’t know, then it’s probably more of a ‘well that was fun, gotta end it somehow, here’s this door into nothingness.’Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

            Good question; I read somewhere that Ted Danson and Kristin Bell were told that the Good Place was the Bad Place, but no-one else. So at the very least, that part of the arc was planned. [From a director/actor point of view, Ted Danson makes sense… but I’m not sure why you tell Kristin Bell — would be curious on thought process there]

            ALSO, did you know that the Creator Michael Schur was Mose on The Office? Now I have to contemplate a Dutch Anabaptist religious rebellion motivation into my calculations.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine says:

              How much of the script was scripted? Like, I’m specifically thinking of Ted Danson’s scene with Chidi (William Harper) where he eviscerated Chidi’s dissertation.

              Did William Harper know what was going to happen there?Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’d need to rewatch it; don’t recall the scene in detail anymore.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine says:

                Season One, Episode 3, about 16:50 into the episode.

                Huh. It ain’t online.

                Rewatching, I see that we don’t see Chidi’s face when Michael makes his funniest lines. (Just the back of his head.)

                So I dunno.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

                “I can read the entirety of the world’s literature in about an hour; this took me two weeks to get through…”

                Good lines, but they seem scripted to me. They don’t quite have that rapid fire ‘in-the-moment’ vibe that I get with off-script stuff.

                Rewatching did make me re-appreciate how good Ted Danson was though.Report

            • If you rewatch the first season, you can see clues that they were in the Bad Place. Schur and the writing staff were quite fair about that.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                Yeah, I noticed that Michael tipped his hand when Chidi asked him to be his Dissertation Advisor… a poorly suppressed smirk as he says he’d be honored to provide an eternity of blunt feedback (or words to that effect).

                I think Danson is definitely playing both sides in S1 … I’m just curious on why you tell Kristen Bell (if you don’t tell anyone else?). Probably it’s just a prosaic need to get her to join the project as the protagonist.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Marchmaine says:

              One of the things that ruined The Office was the mid-to-late optimism of the show. The characters gradually became more likable (or at least sympathetic) and had happy endings. That’s not the show I started out watching. From what I understand, The Office, Parks and Recreation, and The Good Place have enough overlaps to be considered a shared universe.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Pinky says:

                The Schur Cinematic Universe.

                I go the other way on The Office critique… I think it’s more impressive that they keep every character in their cartoonish archetype *even* as they become the family Michael dreams about. Some of the later Dwight episodes – I’m thinking of Oscar going to the Funeral here – are even *more* archetypical than you’d think possible. That episode was Season 9 ep 17.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erw7d8pXjLc

                I didn’t realize until just now that Schur was involved in all (and MOSE!) … the fact that each show had an ending? That makes him a Hollywood unicorn.Report

  4. Brandon Berg says:

    Existence is pretty good, but the portions are too small.Report

  5. Kolohe says:

    You’re the one that grew up Baptist and Calvinist(?) (Calvinist-adjacent?) so you tell me – don’t some significant portion of Christianity view Earth existence as ‘The Bad Place’ until either we join Jesus in Heaven, or he joins us, again, here on Earth?

    I did watch the first season twice, the first time on borrowed DVD and the second when we finally got Netflix and I watched the complete series. One thing that elevates the show to great from good is that first season ‘big twist’ winds up to be not all that important. Or maybe better put, they didn’t just rely on that One Trick and were able to build around it.

    I do agree the final season seems to arrive at Pop Culture Buddhism (and I’m not that familiar with Real Buddhism) but also I think they save themselves from writing themselves into a corner, or from triteness with the whole Jeremy Bearemey thing. Forever is a long time, longer than any human mind can really intuitively grasp, so the conscience decision of beings to move on from that plane of existence does make a lot of sense to me.

    (Also, you get the Mendoza joke right? I.e. the name?)Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Kolohe says:

      Okay. It’s more that Earthen existence is a “vale of tears”. It’s not that earth is “Hell” (though there are some exceptionally unpleasant corners). It’s just that this is the place where we are until we die.

      After we die, there’s a small debate. One of the arguments over in my corner was that after Christians died, whether they went to Heaven or whether they merely went to Paradise. Paradise, you see, was a waiting area of sorts. Heaven wasn’t open to anybody until The Final Judgment. Paradise was really nice, they pointed out. But it wasn’t “PRESENCE OF GOD” nice.

      Anyway, we were talking about earth.

      According to my upbringing and pretty much all of the upbringings that I have been lucky enough to debate this stuff with, earth isn’t The Bad Place. It’s got some places that mimic The Bad Place but it also has some places that mimic The Good Place.Report

      • fillyjonk in reply to Jaybird says:

        Maybe The Medium Place? (I think that’s what they called it; it’s been a while since I watched). Not bad, not great, a lot of the time kinda boring…a place with box-wine and just the meh sequels in movie series.

        I will say the Point System was unsettling though arguably the idea of You Are Never Going To Be Good Enough On Your Own, You Cannot Save Your Own Soul is a major Christian tenet.

        Or maybe I just found it really unsettling because of the kind of person I am…Report

        • Jaybird in reply to fillyjonk says:

          I’m down with the whole “you cannot save yourself” thing. But there were a handful of people who, up until the 1500’s anyway, managed to make it to The Good Place under their own power.

          Pelagianism without Pelagius.

          It was just 500 or 600 years ago, things got so crazy that nobody could do it. Heck, there was one person who got close enough to doing it to get her own Medium Place and *THAT*’S IT.Report

          • North in reply to Jaybird says:

            My impression was that her placement in the Medium place was not so much that she “Got close enough to doing it” so much as that freak chance caused her death to occur within a tiny window of events that caused her virtue score to briefly achieve the “lofty heights of zero” instead of a negative number. Thus necessitating the medium place.Report

        • Reformed Republican in reply to fillyjonk says:

          And (IIRC) the point system was manipulated by the denizens of The Bad Place specifically to make sure everybody ended up there.Report

          • It’s been a while since I watched TGP but my impression was not that the Bad Place denizens caused the point system to produce the outcome so much as that they merely aggressively defended its status quos once it, of its own accord, began sending everyone to the Bad Place.Report

      • J_A in reply to Jaybird says:

        The Heaven vs Paradise (Or Good Place vs Door) is very similar to how Tolkien tells us that Death is Eru’s gift to Mankind, the gift of Freedom, the ability to leave the limits of the World (and, it is implied, possibly go to Eru). All other entities, from the mighty Valar (Gods) to the eternal elves are instead condemned to remain in the world FOREVER, until the end of time.

        Even Valinor, the beatifical land where the Valar reside, will eventually become like a prison, and the Valar themselves will envy the Gift of Men.

        It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it… Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to J_A says:

          Something that kinda weirded me out from the Wireheading wiki page:

          “This stimulation does not appear to lead to tolerance or satiation in the way that sex or drugs do.”

          Go straight to the source with no middleman and just turn that part of your brain to 11.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to J_A says:

          Interesting thought. I don’t quite think it fits though; the counter-intuitive thing about Tolkien’s mythology is that it’s Elven centric (even LoTR). We know a lot (in a semi-fragmentary way) about Elves and their relationship to the Valar and Creation… plus the Halls of Mandos and the various dilemma’s regarding immortality — Tolkien says his work is indeed mostly about immortality/death.

          Unfortunately, we really don’t know much about Men — their story is only hinted at; I’ve mentioned previously that that there’s a really interesting dialog between an Elf and an old Loreworman of the Edain on the topic of Men and their fall and fate. It’s fragmentary but piecing together with Tolkien’s other writings we can see he was ‘wondering’ how the fall of man and their mythological redemptive arc would work in relation to Iluvatar. [it’s not in any way related the the Heroic tale of LoTR] I don’t think he ever quite decided/figured out how that was going to work, but I think it’s clear that Death was a gateway to some sort of participation in Creation with Iluvatar. Which is different from the Valar/Elf union with Ea and Arda and their gifts of Sub-Creation.

          Which is to say, we could speculate that the Good Place (final) gateway is a gateway to an even better Best Place – which is fine, but speculation and subversive of the story – but we can’t really say the converse that Tolkien’s Gift of Death is a sort of Annihilation. At best we can say that Death for Humanity is a Mystery that distinguishes Men from the Valar and Elves. In what way? That Story/Myth was never fully developed.

          Don’t mean this as some sort of ‘rebuke’ — I think it really is an interesting way to look at the two, only that Tolkien really did leave us fragmentary elements of where he was pondering how the Elves illustrate the mystery of death for men… but never was able to write that narrative/myth.Report

  6. North says:

    My primary take away from the Good Place was it was one quarter comedy show, one quarter low rent philosophical existential meditation and one half philosophy education video tucked under the coat tails of the other two quarters.
    I found it fun and clever but I didn’t feel like it had anything deep to say.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to North says:

      The Jeremy Bearimy thing was interesting and makes a troublesome concept a little bit easier.

      But now I see that people have used hints from the show and are estimating that a Jeremy Bearimy is really a little less than a century. Which, like, is silly and dumb. People have lived longer than that! What’s the point of an eternity being a countable number! ARGHReport

  7. LeeEsq says:

    I’d like to watch one of these religious/phiolosophical or pseudo-religious/philosophical shows have Judaism, and not acculturated assimilated Reform if possible, ends up being the correct religion. Nobody will believe it is possible not even the Jewish characters.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq says:

      Would *NEVER* get off the ground.

      “Turned on a lot of lights on Friday nights, didn’t you?”
      “Is that a problem?”
      “It’s work. Now let’s look at food issues… You had cheeseburgers. Regularly. With bacon?”
      “Um. I assumed that that was dietarily related to trichinosis and that once trichinosis was overcome, that was no longer a big deal.”
      “And let’s look at your college years… Oh my.”Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

        I do remember being surprised to see that our new appliances had a “Sabbath Mode”, which let you open the door without the light coming on, wouldn’t start the compressor motor, would let the oven remain running for thirty-six hours so that you could turn it on the night before (because using the heat of an already-burning fire isn’t technically doing work…)Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to LeeEsq says:

      Need A&E to do the Thomas Covenant series to generate controversy and prime the market…Report

  8. Kazzy says:

    “Our protagonist who would have been cool with an eternity of wireheading with her soulmate quickly finds herself walking through the door… not to be with him but just to no longer be without him.”

    Do we know that for sure? Or has she simply not her her fill of wireheading yet? I interpreted not that she was uniquely immune to having her fill of heaven, simply that the arc of her journey left her with a higher threshold… for whatever reason (I can speculate as to why but won’t right now). We are meant to most identify with Eleanor and while our brains might say, “Yea, I can see how go-karting with the monkeys or visiting Greece with my soulmate might get tired,” our hearts are much more likely to tell us, “Nah… we wouldn’t be like that. We’d remain satisfied with perfection.”

    The quote above says as much, albeit indirectly: she chose to leave because heaven or whatever wasn’t really heaven. Yes, it was because something changed (Chidi left) but if heaven can become not-heaven… if eternal bliss can become torture (just as it did for everyone else)… she is really no different for them. She just — as Eleanor tended to do — took her own path.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

      I’m not sure I know what you mean by “that”. We definitely see her walk through the door at the end and become fireflies and we see one of the fireflies interact with a person who threw out his neighbor’s junkmail and then reconsidered and fished it out of the trash and hand-delivered it.

      Her heaven was with Chidi. When Chidi was gone, it wasn’t heaven anymore. An inversion of Sartre’s “Hell is Other People”.

      I mean, I know some people who take a lot less than perfection to be satisfied. I’m sure you know a couple as well. You probably don’t see them as people to be emulated, if they’re like the people I’m thinking of. But satisfied they seem to be.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

        “Our protagonist who would have been cool with an eternity of wireheading with her soulmate…” is the ‘that’ I was referring to. Had Chidi never left, maybe she’d have remained happy for eternity. Or maybe she would have run out of steam. All we know is that Chidi ran out first. And his running out caused her to run out.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

          Oh, I gotcha. I suppose we don’t know if she ever would have gotten sick of hanging around with Chidi. As you point out, all we know is that he got sick of the afterlife (even if she was there) before she did.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

            Yes, which makes sense. He always meant more to her than she to him. Or at least that’s how it was presented. Again, with Eleanor as the protagonist, she was the eyes through which we were supposed to take in the entire saga. If she left him, we’d have been forced to reckon with whether we could or would have done the same. Could we have reached a place of such internal contentment that we’d leave our soulmate? Damn man.. I don’t want to think about that while also processing my feelings on the show ending!

            But can I reckon with how I’d have felt if I was the one left? Well, yea, easily… we all know what it’s like to be dumped.

            I guess I just disagree with the proposition/interpretation that Eleanor was somehow inherently different than the rest. She wasn’t. She was different… they all were… but she eventually made the same decision they all did: the afterlife they constructed was insufficient. It was insufficient for her because it was a place where she could still find herself alone. As someone who — from the very get go of the show — never wanted to be part of a group, the thing she simply could not accept in the end was being without the people she wanted to be with.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

              She was also the only one who passed the test the judge gave.

              Someone pointed out that the endings for the four people all showed how much they grew. Eleanor didn’t just walk through the door, she waited a bit first. Asked Janet how Janet was dealing with stuff. Like, she asked someone else how they were. AND SHE LISTENED.

              Chidi walked through instead of wembling for an eternity first. He decided. AND THEN HE DID IT.

              Jason had a goal. And he was willing to wait to get it. And he was okay with waiting to get it.

              And Tahani used her gifts and talents to advance others instead of advancing herself.

              Everybody had an arc.

              Pity about the nihilism.Report

  9. Pat says:

    The show specifically says that the thing about going through the door is that you don’t know what happens next.

    And yet the #1 most popular assumption is that it is annihilation followed closely by “your essence returns to the Universe”.

    The show even jumps from people assuming that they don’t know what happens to people thinking they know what happens, which is an interesting twist IMO.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Pat says:

      To be perfectly honest, I can’t help but think “your essence returns to the universe” is annihilation-enough-for-jazz.

      There will no longer be a “you” in any meaningful sense. Chidi’s speech about the wave and the water got into this.Report