The Primary Problem

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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40 Responses

  1. Dark Matter says:

    I’m not opposed to rank-choice, but I like math and am painfully logical at all times.

    We already have problems with people claiming the other side stole the election.
    Making the ballot less intuitively understandable will make that worse.

    Having said that, this problem doesn’t go away no matter what we do and fringe take over needs a solution so it’s worth a try.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    Have the people who care the most (like, to the point of being CRAZY) decide who we vote for, have the people who care the least (who still care juuuust enough to still show up) be in charge of deciding who gets elected.

    What could possibly go wrong?Report

  3. Chip Daniels says:

    Why does the author just take it as a given that Margorie Taylor Greene is a bad selection, or embarrassing somehow to the Republicans?

    Sure from our standpoint here on the left side of the aisle we smirk and consider her very existence a scandal. But there’s nothing to indicate the Republicans don’t like her and consider her a fine specimen of their party. Quite the opposite, she seems to be popular, and the base voters are very content with her.

    The central premise of this piece is that somehow the mechanism of party selection must be rejiggered somehow to prevent the voters from making such obvious mistakes as MTG.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      “Moderate” Republicans still don’t want to own the Party they helped create, nor do they want to have an honest discussion about what continuing to vote Republican means in the face of the likes of MTG.Report

    • Mike Grillo in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      “The central premise of this piece is that somehow the mechanism of party selection must be rejiggered somehow to prevent the voters from making such obvious mistakes as MTG.”

      Yes, that’s exactly right. The nominating process is not an election. It has nothing to do with the “voters.” It is about the party choosing the best candidate that can win. The continued weakness of parties thanks to McCain/Feingold (and its offshoot, Citizens United), as well as small donor fundraising, and open primaries have made it easier for unserious people to get into office, by tapping into the anger of the small percentage of the over Republican electorate, but a sizable portion in primaries.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Mike Grillo says:

        Does this seem sustainable to you, that a party would consistently put forward candidates against the wishes of the base?

        Isn’t Trump the result of precisely this?Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          An unethical Billionaire skilled at using the media who is already a celeb is a nightmare to keep out of power in a democracy. Having said that, Trump didn’t have a “base” until he spent the entire primary season using his “pay attention to me” thing.

          I think the lesson to learn is something about improving the various guardrails.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

            Guardrails are good, but that is exactly what the Senate and Electoral College were designed as, guardrails to blunt the passions of the mob and make radical change slow with lots of veto points.

            But…the basic premise of a republican democracy is that the people must be allowed to determine their future.

            And Trump is the result of that. Nearly 50% of the people wanted him in two successive elections, and may very likely want him again in a third. About that many have chosen to repeatedly elect people like MTG and Boebert and Gohmert and the rest of the lunatic caucus as their representatives.

            There are no possible guardrails to prevent this.

            When Franklin said “A republic, if you can keep it”, this is what he meant. The American experiment was a test of the hypothesis that the people, given the freedom to govern themselves, would choose freedom and liberty for all.

            Right now, there are large swaths of the people who are choosing illiberalism and intolerance.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Trump running again will be interesting. He’s showcased himself as “illiberal” and authoritarian.

              That’s not the normal politician being corrupt nor is it “the wrong wing of the grand coalition got their guy and I did not”.

              My expectation is he can’t win the general and he might not even be able to get the nod.

              About that many have chosen to repeatedly elect people like MTG and Boebert and Gohmert and the rest of the lunatic caucus as their representatives.

              Primary voters are not the same as main election voters. With that as the core problem, the root of most of this is gerrymandering.

              Granted, that has nothing to do with Trump but he’s an extreme outlier.Report

              • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Trump is an authoritarian by his nature, but, with the exception of putting loyalty above all else, his political instincts still can be good when it comes to surprise outperforming the generic Republican in a general election. His critical take on the post Dobbs agenda and statement that cuts to Medicare and Social Security should be off the table for the Republican majority in Congress is indicative. It would be incredibly ironic if he couldn’t win the primary due to being too moderate for the crazed movement he played a significant part in creating.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to InMD says:

                The Van Diagrams for “Moderate” and “potentially in prison for trying to overthrow the government” don’t overlap.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              MTG is an interesting one. Pretty Fitness Coach who got into politics via lunatic views and has governed the same. Ran unopposed in the general and in a heavy GOP district still managed to get 25% to vote against her.

              One hopes, after having given her views and behavior a good chance to be reviewed by the electorate, she doesn’t win reelection.

              I also wonder at her legal exposure from the various Jan 6th and related misdeeds.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

                The voters in her district have put her in office twice, and I doubt her views were a secret in either race.Report

              • Yes. Hers is a rural/exurb district in a state that is increasingly urban. The voters in many districts like that believe they are in an existential battle. (Here in Colorado, various state legislators from districts like that say literally, “The Front Range urban corridor has declared war on rural Colorado.”)

                Her voters don’t care about anything except absolute opposition to urban areas and the Democrats they perceive as the urban party.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Michael Cain says:

                Urban carries a special cache for them, for sure.

                I can completely understand rural voters feeling disenfranchised (rightly or wrongly). What gets me is they never seem to elect reps who are willing to do the hard work necessary to help them.Report

              • Years ago Will Truman made a comment about parents in rural Idaho and the best and brightest kids leaving for Boise or Seattle. He said the parents knew it was going to happen, knew why it was happening, knew there was nothing they could do to reverse it, but still needed to vent their anger at the more urban areas.

                I sometimes wonder if the same argument applies to the political arena. The rural areas know their lifestyle is dying (at least relatively), they know why it’s dying, and that there’s nothing they can do to reverse that. They don’t elect people to go to the state capital or DC to work to fix things; they elect people who can do the best rant.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain says:

                In the last five years, the population of 43 of 44 counties in Idaho has increased. The five largest counties have grown about 10% in this time, while the remaining counties averaged about 7% growth. So, not really dying.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Pinky says:

                But losing ground, and I included “at least relatively” on purpose. This is one area where I think percentages give a wrong picture. 7% of 10,000 people in a small county is 700 people. Over five years, 140 people per year. 10% of a county with 200,000 people is 20,000, or 4,000 per year. Every redistricting their power is reduced. Every year the overall emphasis in the state will be more urban/suburban.

                My sister tells me that the people in outstate Nebraska, even in counties that are still growing, are in a total panic now that more than half the state’s population live in the three counties that are Omaha, Lincoln, and their suburbs.Report

              • Off topic to the editors… If you stick short alpha-only text strings in the “straight to trash” list, there may be unfortunate side effects. “BoI” makes Boise and any word that incorporates boil forbidden words.

                It would be nice if WordPress could be a bit more sophisticated about how it compares such strings, but for now it is what it is.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain says:

                These days, you can’t spell New York City without “ew”.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Mike Grillo says:

        Yes, that’s exactly right. The nominating process is not an election. It has nothing to do with the “voters.” It is about the party choosing the best candidate that can win. The continued weakness of parties thanks to McCain/Feingold (and its offshoot, Citizens United), as well as small donor fundraising, and open primaries have made it easier for unserious people to get into office, by tapping into the anger of the small percentage of the over Republican electorate, but a sizable portion in primaries.

        So you support machine politics then?Report

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to Philip H says:

          Machine politics gave us FDR. It’s not inherently bad.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

            FDR kept the great depression going until WW2 diverted his attention.Report

            • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

              Well, that’s certainly a new one to me.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                How many years do economic problems have to go on before we should conclude the massive changes he’s doing to the economy are involved? Why was this depression worse than say 1920?

                There were a number of things going on then that we’d now call economic insanity. Smoot–Hawley. FDR’s executive order for a 100% income tax on income over $25,000 ($500k in today’s money).

                FDR was a guy who seriously disliked “the rich” and they were terrified of him. If you’re constantly trying to prevent economic activity from creating wealth, then we should expect side effects.Report

  4. InMD says:

    I think it would certainly be good to do something about it but I am not sure what. Maryland had a slightly unusual situation in 2022 due to litigation over its insanely gerrymandered congressional districts. Ultimately the primary was delayed until the middle of July, with reported turnout being under 5% of eligible voters. The result for the gubernatorial was nomination of a pretty lightweight, novice Democrat with a feel good story but no experience who effortlessly crushed a crazed MAGA Republican that never had a chance in hell of winning (which for the record is a good thing). While I prefer the outcome with respect to the two candidates it is hard to say the system produced the best choices for the state.Report

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    I agree with Chip but the main solution is for the parties to become strong. American parties are currently weak. There are lots of countries where the people really do not have much of a say for who the candidates are. You won’t see primaries for MP seats. Now it is another question whether this will produce fewer MTGs in the American context.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Imagine a smoke filled room where party bigwigs MTG, Lauren Boebert, George Santos, Louie Gohmert and Virginia Foxx are selecting the next slate of candidates.
      On speakerphone are Baked Alaska, Catturd2.0 and Curtis Yarvin.Report

  6. North says:

    Cards on the table, I’m a yellow dog Democratic party supporter and have a, perhaps, irrational fondness for that grizzled old donkey of a party from their loony toon left wingers to their corrupt corporate centrists (and Sinema who’s a special breed of manic pixie bought and paid for twit) along with all the genuine good people and voters in between.

    Accordingly, I had to smirk at the desperate contortions Mr. Thornton has to inflict on his writing to try and both sides this issue. No, sir, both parties are not desperately victimized and in thrall to their radical wings; only one is. That is why when media and the right-wing propaganda outfit, go to find nutters on the left they mostly have to go to the infinite well of twitter and non-politician university professors, students and affiliated twits for the extremism. Whereas right wing lunatic extremists can be found comfortably ensconced in every level of the Republican Party from the grass roots up to the Presidency.

    To address the specifics: yes, the Superdelegates exist and no, they’ve never been an actual factor in a modern nomination contest. Ol’ Uncle Bernie lost to Hillary without the Superdelegates ever so much as twitching a whisker. The only time Superdelegates would be a factor is if the various contestants for the nomination entered the convention without an actual majority of real delegates. That scenario has never occurred so far so it’s ludicrous to suggest that such a system is in any way responsible for party pandering to extremists. Especially when one notes the incredibly inconvenient fact that the Democratic Party has nominated sensible moderate candidates for the Presidency ever since, what Dukakis? My entire adult life at the very minimum. The only reason anyone talks about Superdelegates at all is because first a flailing Bernie and then second an opportunistic right wing media tried to paint them as somehow nefarious in an effort to influence the elections.

    As for Stacey Abrams; that politician in particular lost the Governors race by a whisker once and more solidly a second time. In the interim she has been central to organizing in the state of Georgia that delivered two Senators to the Democratic Party two electoral cycles running. If the devil in his pink pajamas materialized and offered me two federal Senators winning two elections running in exchange for narrowly losing a gubernatorial contests two times running, I’d take that deal in a heartbeat. The Democratic Party was entirely rational in nominating Ms. Abrams, she certainly doesn’t look like any kind of extremist to me and, frankly, if I had the fortune to meet her and shake her hand, I wouldn’t wash mine for a week after.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to North says:

      the amusing part about your rant is that Superdelegates were why Clinton lost in 2008, and that’s why she leaned so hard on getting everybody to agree they were Definite Votes For Clinton in 2016

      also, “a flailing Bernie” yes, well. flailing dead-ender candidates usually don’t make it all the way to to the convention with half the floor waving their name on signs.Report

      • North in reply to DensityDuck says:

        Oh DD, never change. Clinton lost in 2008 because she had the enormously bad judgement to put the execrable stain Mark Penn in charge of her campaign and he was as mendacious as he was incompetent. Obama arrived at the convention with the popular vote lead and a lead in delegates and the super delegates dutifully followed suit.

        And yes, in 2020 Bernie was flailing furiously and he performed horribly turning in a much weaker showing than he had in ’16 which is why he harped on and on about the super delegates so much even though they never were involved at all (Clinton got the necessary majority of normal delegates in ’16).

        None of these instances suggest the super delegates have ever been a problem at all for their party, let alone a major problem like the OP suggests.Report

  7. Jesse says:

    You have two choices –

    1.) Two parties w/ strong primaries so the base feels reflected in the party

    2.) Stronger party control, but more parties competing.

    The reason nobody im Sweden really cares about the fact that say, the Swedish Social Democrat’s leadership basically decides who will run in each parliamentary district is simple, there are a lot of other serious parties to choose from. Even in the UK, due to much smaller constituencies, people truly upset about party leadership’s choice have more options, or it’s more possible for an independent to run and win.

    We’re never going back to 1965 when the Establishment of both parties basically had veto power over who runs for office, and frankly, that’s a good thing. I might not agree w/ the crazies that make up the base of the GOP, but since they’re the strong majority of the party, why should rich dudes who don’t care that much about social issues and love cheap labor decide who’s the GOP nominee?Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Jesse says:

      RE: More parties competing

      This probably requires redoing the constitution and is why stronger parties is so attractive (which doesn’t).

      In other countries, the Tea Party and Trump would have gone off and formed their own parties. Similarly the Greens and Socialists would do the same. Here your choices are join one team and become a wing (or take it over), or create a new party which will kill one of the existing ones.

      That second has happened, but not recently. The issue of slavery resulted in the creation of a party devoted to fighting it (the GOP) because neither of the existing parties were doing so sufficiently. Not sure how the others died, but having two is pretty baked into the cake because of the core rules.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Dark Matter says:

        The core rules of the voting mechanics are not baked into the constitution.

        We see that even today… you can have ranked choice voting for Congress (see Alaska and Maine), at large representation (pre-1967), and could even do proportional representation without altering the Constitution. The size of Congress and the single-district rules are Congressional Acts which specify how the Congress is constituted (so long as it is proportionally distributed among the states and directly elected – including the Senate as of the 17th Amendment).

        We’ve previously discussed the 1929 Reapprotionment Act; and here’s a link to the 1967 Uniform Congressional District Act which specifically eliminated mixed At-Large in favor of Single Member Districts. It could be altered to whatever Congress thought best without Constitutional amendment.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Congressional_District_Act

        The goal isn’t specifically to make strong parties; the goal would be to break the duopoly created by First-Past-the-Post voting. Parties with stronger factional coherence would (presumably) arise in time. It would create different challenges/issues to be sure. But it wouldn’t require Constitutional or Regime level changes.

        The desire of some for a legislative dictatorship (aka Parliamentary System) is a different desire. In fact, one of the reasonable critiques of changing this in the US multi-polar system is that the Legislative Branch would always have multiple factions in constant negotiations while the Executive Branch would only ever have one faction/party in control at any given time (formally). Informally an Executive may have to co-opt other factions/parties with election promises; but once elected that Executive is not bound by any promise. Theoretically, the counter-arguments go, an already imperial Presidency would be further strengthened against a Congress of multiple factions/parties. As I say, changing the rules just introduces different challenges/issues. On the whole I am persuaded that this would enable better factional negotiations rather than the winner-take-all zombie parties we have today. But, if it turns out we really do only prefer the two parties we have today, nothing in the voting rules changes would prevent them from carrying on exactly as they are presently constituted. So there’s no downside risk if one thinks today’s Parties are perfect. Just vote harder for them.Report

  8. Pinky says:

    The presidential and non-presidential primary systems are very different creatures. The former has more options for reform: superdelegates, the winner-take-all system, and the whole Iowa and New Hampshire thing come to mind. The latter probably requires increasing voter turnout and closing the primaries. I don’t know how popular either idea would be.Report

  9. John Puccio says:

    You’ll never get the nut jobs out of the House of Representatives. They had nutters in the first congress and they will most certainly have them in the last, whenever that may be.

    I’m not sure why they are even brought up in an article about Presidential Primaries.

    Rank Choice voting makes a lot of sense but as others have stated, it requires people to trust the voting process, and I’m not sure when or if that happens.Report