Commenter Archive

Comments by Ed*

On “knowing when to get out of the way

New Hampshire and California in the last two weeks? Yeah, its a landslide alright but not towards gay marriage. By the way, 29 states have had a public referendum on gay marriage and guess what? 29 states have disallowed gay marriage. You can write all you want in support but 3 to 4% of the population shouldn't get special rights unless we allow all small percentage groups whatever rights they want based on the fact that they exist. If polygamists are 0.5%, they should get to marry otherwise it is tyranny of the majority. Or if brothers and sisters who want to marry are 0.05%, they should get to marry or it is tyranny of the majority.

Good luck with the special rights campaign.

"

I now have a concrete example of absolute bashing tone of the gay marriage argument by its supporters. Ms. California vs. Perez Hilton. She stated that each state has its laws and allows for different people to marry and that was not an issue for her but she PERSONALLY stated that marriage should be between a man and a woman. Perez Hilton then went on to absolutely curse her out with names and obscenities on his website and call her dumb, bigoted, etc. The reaction was so out of proportion to the event.

The reason I bring this up is it was discussed on Larry King Live tonight about whether the semi-nude photo blow up of Ms. Cal is retaliation. Perez denied it is retaliation. However, he belied his answer when Larry asked him if she had supported gay marriage what the outcome would have been. Perez said she probably wouldn't have won and no one would be talking about her. His logic says since she is against gay marriage, her semi-nude photos are an issue. Its crazy and hypocritical. Gay men and women want liberal laws but want to impose conservative contract interpretation on Ms. Cal for her photos.

The pro-gay marriage movement as I have said is ALL EMOTION and way out of proportion to reality. The honest comparisons to slavery say it all - way out of proportion to reality. Gay marriage supporters have become the tyrants. I could name a few on here that fall into that category especially those who said that I didn't argue my points well. Closeminded, self-righteous superior folk as bad and as evil as the Christian Right.

"

I read and I read and I read these posts today. I was accused of changing arguments. However, I see so many statements that I made that were never met by anyone on here. I saw many knee-jerk reactions to what I wrote that elicited emotional arguments but not based in fact.

For instance, I wrote: "It is erroneous to read the 1st Amendment as disallowing any religious interjection into any government issue. One religion can’t be favored over any other thereby leading to an official state religion or the appearance of one. Thus, marriage laws as they are written are not unconstitutional and not problematic."

But this was never addressed. One person tried to argue against it but he was 100% wrong. My statement was based on the Founding Father's reasons for writing the 1st Amendment which is fact and not even an argument. All I got was an emotional attempt at an argument. And that is mostly what I see here - emotional reactions lacking in factual history. And that is the gay marriage fight in a nutshell. It is ALL emotional.

I will repost my argument that it is not about equality but about something more.

"I will say this again loud and clear. If it is about equal rights, which everyone says it is, then civil unions with every single damn right of marriage is in fact equal rights.

Okay? Does that make sense?

Next, if you ask for gay marriage, then there is something intangible that you are seeking, not just equal rights. If it is just rights, who the hell cares if it is civil union or marriage. You’ve got the rights. Keep moving. But to want marriage is to want equal recognition of gay relationships in relation to marriage. What is that? What “right” is that? Where in the constitution is that “right” listed? It isn’t about inheritance, it isn’t about visitation or tax issues, it is not about a right, but a need to be acknowledged. Society chooses which behavior, and it is behavior, to acknowledge. "

This is a legal issue and we have a Constitution under which we decide our laws. We don't argue based on pure emotion. But that is what gay marriage supporters are urging. It is wrong and it is offensive to our history not because people are gay but because they are demanding something outside of a process that this country has used up to this point. It screams of special rights, just to me, not to anyone else, I speak for no one else and I am not part of any conspiracy, church, GOP, etc. It is my opinion and it is informed by history as well as personal experience which I will relate later.

"

Oh, Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob. Oh, Bob.

"

Bob

You know nothing about me besides writings on this blog in particular. Nothing else. But good try on the psychological assessment. Like I said, name-calling and attempted marginalization are your ammunition. Nice way to play right into hands. Good job. Do you really think that your opinion about me means anything to me? It tells me more about you than about me. The fact that you went back and read everything to make a diagnosis - I think that you had drawn a conclusion and then went back to read in order to support your already drawn conclusion.

How do you know I am a man? that I am not a surgically altered woman? or simply a woman? or gay? or that I was gay and am not anymore? You know nothing about me except my opinion in one area. Just like gays who call people who disagree with gay marriage bigots, you are exactly the same, afraid of people with different opinions and you must demonize them to feel superior. That's what I read from you. Smugly superior.

"

This gay marriage debate has become the tyranny of the minority. If you disagree, you are a bigot. Gays claim that they are intractably gay and demand understanding, basically claiming the right to self-determination. Gays also claim sexuality is a continuum. Yet if someone who formerly identified himself or herself as gay no longer claims gay feelings, gay groups are all over them, saying no way, once gay, always gay. Which is it? Is sexuality on a continuum, is it self-determined or are gays the authority on all sexual issues? Seems to me that gays are terrorizing anyone who disagrees with name calling, flippancy, marginalizing, you pick the strategy. Gays say accept me for who I am but gays refuse to accept anyone who claims he or she doesn't practice homosexuality as a lifestyle even if they once had practiced it. The hypocrisy is astounding but I bet, I bet, no on here sees the hypocrisy.

The religious right is a minority yet it held the Republicans sway for many years. Now gays are doing the same to the left. The tyranny of the minority. And you have guys have bought into it hook, line and sinker.

Gays as a class are in constant flux. Anyone who is a member of a race is always a member. Gays as a class is erroneous and should never be treated with anything more than rational basis review. It is not a protected class like women, ie., once a woman, always a woman, once black, always black, etc. Gays can come and go. Again, refer back to the APA and their recent statement that they have found psychological well-being with former gays and lesbians.

The tyranny of the minority, politically correct gone awry.

"

Dave,

It took you how many days to articulate your thoughts? I understand the ramifications. Do I agree with activist judges misapplying jurisprudence? No. Do I find their reasoning a leap? Yes. You did not refute my arguments by citing one court's decision. You merely stated the court's opinion. Homosexuals are not a protected class according to the Supreme Court. Iowa means nothing to me. I live in NY. So what if a few justices make ridiculous leaps. How does the rest of the state feel? Are we going to now apply this reasoning to sterile brothers and sisters? Polygamists? Where does it end and why does it end there? Can you tell me that one, smart guy? Or do you need a few days to find someone else's opinion that you can reprint?

"

Bob, you're too serious. I am pointing out the fallacy of his argument through sarcasm. Its not bad faith and it wasn't intended as such. It was a poor argument on his part and I pointed out his misstatement.

Cascadian, you limited your argument to the bedroom, not me. Don't try to turn it around on me. Make a better argument next time and you won't have to scramble to cover your ass. I pointed out your misstatement; accept that you argued poorly and move on.

"

Bob, you missed the boat entirely. Cascadian was saying the government should stay out of the bedroom, thus, focusing on sodomy and sexual interaction, not focusing on marriage. That was why I alluded to sodomy laws regardless of their current status. I know the Lawrence case - I went to law school. You missed the point, Bob. I think that marriage is more than what happens in the bedroom, maybe, huh? See my point. Cascadian thinks government staying out of the bedroom is the equivalent of saying okay to gay marriage. Do you see the lack of thought in that argument and my response to it? I hope so.

Back to Dave, this is too easy. Actually, its not, when I am arguing with lightweights. I have to dumb it down to make my points and that takes effort. C'mon, please rise to my level.

"

Dave...oh wait, nothing to say to you since you have nothing to say. Troll.

"

Cascadian wrote: "Everyone has the interest of keeping the government out of the bedroom. As far as religion, it’s always a case of rights for me but not for thee."

Cascadian, wow, I didn't realize that this was just about sex. I thought it was about marriage. You might want to change your fight to sodomy laws to be accurate in your arguments. Otherwise, your statement, simple, trite, not cute, not accurate, and lacking in any argument whatsoever - in other words, arguing with you is a waste of time.

"

Good for all of you.

"

Bad Yogi wrote: "under the surface of a seemingly amiable, open guy was a religious argument."

Huh? Wha? Religious argument? What are you reading? You're finding things that don't exist. I want to write more but I think that confuses you so I will keep it short and simple.

"

Bad Yogi, you are guilty of projection. Everything you said about me you recognize because you practice it. Your screen name is not ironic.
Stop trying to cram me into the fundamentalist section. You say I'm not engaged. ADDRESS MY ARGUMENT - OTHERWISE YOU ARE NOT ENGAGED. You're a name caller. You're angry. You are self-righteous. The bile must be backed up into the back of your throat. You don't argue-you're a name caller. That's it. You are one of the ones who shouts down opposition but has nothing to say himself. You are in the front ranks, a private, not a general. Don't fool yourself that you are more than that and you'll be a happier person.

Cascadian -Religion - look up the bill of rights. Everyone has a potential interest in the spiritual life. Religion should be protected. The same cannot be said about homosexuality.

"

I realized that to engage in arguing with the gay marriage movement is to give it credibility. Gays are interested in the fight and not the actual rights. Refer to Salon from February 08 regarding gay marriage in Mass. and how such a small number of gays are actually getting married.

So I ignore you and your self-righteousness. Yes, gay marriage will probably pass but gay identity will pass into oblivion. It is only 40 years old and it is due to the American Psychological Association amending its code to take homosexuality out of the pathology category. However, the same organization last year added a new caveat to its code for the first time ever. It has acknowledged that some (formerly) self-identified gay men and women have been helped out of their lifestyle, orientation, choice, whatever you want to call it and actually are living more satisfying, happier lives in hetero relationships. Self-identified is crucial since NO ONE can define anyone else as much as gay men and women want to claim a person who has one homosexual experience in their entire life as gay but in denial. (Ha! talk about self-righteousness). No one gets to claim who is gay and who isn't except that person him or herself. The APA is not full of fundamentalists. It acknowledges psychological well being and has done so not due to a political movement but real results. Do a web search and find it out yourselves.

People see demons everywhere against gays. But that's not accurate. There are not demons everywhere but gays love a fight, love a soapbox, love to rebel, love to be self-righteous and also portray themselves as victims even though they are one of the wealthiest groups in the country. So to engage in arguing is to give the gay movement the soapbox it needs. I abstain. Because we'll see, once gays get marriage, such a small amount of people will take advantage of it, it will have been a worthless fight and gays still won't be happy as a group. That lifestyle doesn't lend itself to happiness and it never will.

But we won't have to hear the self-righteousness anymore, the screeching, the nails on the chalkboard. I could pick apart every single argument above but its pointless because no one EVER acknowledges where I am right except one time one guy asked me, okay, well do you at least support civil unions, which I do. He couldn't refute my arguments like no one else can on here.

I am reposting this and I will discuss it if anyone wants to but I will not engage in any other discussion. Here is my repost: ONE SINGLE ACT HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR TODAY DOES BNOT NECESSARILY LEAD TO GAY IDENTITY TOMORROW UNLIKE RACE WHERE IF ONE IS BLACK TODAY, HE OR SHE IS BLACK TOMORROW.

The point being we don't need to change laws for something fluid like sexuality unlike needing to changes laws for something that will never change like race. Sexuality is self-defined, race is not. One is subjective, one is not.

"

Did you read the same article that I posted? Where is your "easy" refutation exactly? Cause I can't find it.

And I guess according to your (flawed) logic, we should get rid of government regulation in ALL areas of our lives? Or should it just be the ones that you in particular don't like?

According to your argument as well, brothers and sisters who are in love should be able to marry, multiple partners should be able to marry, where does it end exactly? Oh, I guess with no government regulation (and its resulting anarchy), anything goes. Interesting argument. Great refutation. Really... great.

"

The secular case against gay marriage: http://tech.mit.edu/V124/N5/kolasinski.5c.html

Please read it and refute. To fine tune my earlier argument, yes, homosexual behavior exists in animals albeit on a minimal level. However, gay identity only exists in humans as a relatively new phenomenon. Before anyone says "yes, but a heterosexual identity doesn't exist in the animal world either", well, the only reason a hetero identity exists in humans is to counterpose the new self-identified homosexuals. If homosexuality as an identity didn't exist, heterosexuality is the norm and doesn't need to have a category or an identifying label. Its simple logic.

There have also been societies that haven't frowned upon homosexuality in history, ie, greeks, indian tribes, yet have not embraced gay marriage. So, what this means is that there has not been bigotry since homosexual activity was condoned. Greeks recognized it happens and accepted it but did not promote it via marriage since sexuality is fluid and realized that homosexual behavior today does not lead to gay identity tomorrow unlike race where if one is black today, he or she is black tomorrow. See the difference.

"

You're are absolutely correct about gay marriage being rare. As I was writing, I saw that but I am at work and posted too quickly.

"

Canadian jursiprudence has nothing to do with US constitutional law. I am curious to see how Canada handles it but do they have a 1st Amendment? I am skeptical also about the claim that the Mormons are heavily favored. I need to know the source to determine whether I believe a statement like that.

Your argument that marriage is a weapon is erroneous. Marriage has been in existence for what, hundreds if not thousands of years and now some very small group of people claim that they should have a new right recognized under the existing laws that has never been recognized before in the known history of mankind and groups react to protect the institution as it stands but it is being used as a tool by those who are acting to keep it as it has been for all time? A new right is being sought. It is not those in charge seeking to impose their beliefs it is those seeking the change who are seeking to impose their beliefs that gays should be allowed to marry. Gays are using marriage as their tool to batter anyone opposed into submission by being labeled a bigot even if you support full civil rights.

"

You can believe it to be an inappropriate government activity but that doesn't make it unconstitutional. The jurisprudence of the 1st Amendment will lead the action taken, not personal feelings.

Discrimination against religions is not the rational behind the 1st Amend. One religion cannot be favored suggesting a state religion; that is why the 1st Amend was written, to avoid the rule of law combined with religion that most of the drafters of the const. were subject to. Marriage doesn't suggest a state religion.

"

The 1st Amendment wasn't written to keep religion out of laws. It was written to disallow a state religion whereby one religion would be favored over any other. Marriage laws do not favor one religion over another. Marriage laws are not christian, not jewish, not hindu, etc. They do not disobey the 1st Amendment.

It is erroneous to read the 1st Amendment as disallowing any religious interjection into any government issue. One religion can't be favored over any other thereby leading to an official state religion or the appearance of one. Thus, marriage laws as they are written are not unconstitutional and not problematic.

"

Bob, I respect your opinion as well. However, I take heed to your statement that I have a narrow definition of nature. I believe you have a skewed definition of nature whereby you raise deviation from the norm to the level of the norm as your argumentative positition. Why do scientists even define it as deviation? Why not just make everything the norm? That is how I see your definition of nature and that is skewed. By the way, asexual reproduction only happens in the absence of an opposite sex member. If there is an opposite sex memeber, natural procreation occurs. So in times of stress on certain species, asexual reproduction will occur. But the norm will always be natural procreation. That asexual reproduction argument is the exception that proves the rule that natural procreation is favored.

To many others, not just Bob, I agree, marriage is cultural. However, EVERY culture, until recently, marriage = man and woman. I've always said that it is man's way of exalting the naturally procreative relations amongst opposite sexes. I never said that marriage existed in nature. But I will go on to state without doubt that long term, monogamous, sexually active, homosexual relations amongst any animals other than humans do not exist in the absolute. So why should we as a race exalt those relations to the level of marriage as a cultural instituion or cultural tool, if you will.

I will support civil unions. I would voice my opinion openly on that fact. I fully mean what I say about equal rights. If anyone asked me to, I would contact my reps in congress, senate, etc., I would sign petitions, I would attend a rally. I mean what I say.

As far as the state getting out of the marriage business, all of our laws have judeo christian roots so if you start cherrypicking laws based upon religious roots, you have a lot of work ahead of you. I see the point about civil unions for everyone and it is both agreeable to me and disagreeable at the same time. I don't support it, ultimately.

I don't think a compromise is necessary for 3 to 4% of the population, of which only a portion of that population wants to take advantage of the right to marry. There isn't universal agreement amongst gays that the right to marry is what is desirable. Some gays have said why would we want to copy that institution. We can have something else altogether. This is what distinguishes this movement from the 14th amendment's addressing of discrimination against Af. Americans. ALL Af. Americans wanted the right to vote, the right to equal facilities, etc. , but not all gays want the right to marry. There is a definite distinction.

"

I can no longer respond. My words are enough.

Bob, it was nice to hear from you, too, although you've caught me at exhaustion once again. I will think about your proposal. From a constitutional standpoint, it makes sense regarding the separation of church and state.

No more tonight.

"

You don't get to frame the argument Yogi. I am not arguing on your terms. I was asked for a secular reason against gay marriage and I proposed that marriage is based upon lifetime hetero unions as presented by nature. I never said marriage existed in nature. But lots of people read it that way and once they did they wouldn't let go.

I think that the supporters of gay marriage are one of the most closeminded, self righteous groups that I have ever encountered. Say your for civil unions but not marriage and you are discriminating.

I will say this again loud and clear. If it is about equal rights, which everyone says it is, then civil unions with every single damn right of marriage is in fact equal rights.

Okay? Does that make sense?

Next, if you ask for gay marriage, then there is something intangible that you are seeking, not just equal rights. If it is just rights, who the hell cares if it is civil union or marriage. You've got the rights. Keep moving. But to want marriage is to want equal recognition of gay relationships in relation to marriage. What is that? What "right" is that? Where in the constitution is that "right" listed? It isn't about inheritance, it isn't about visitation or tax issues, it is not about a right, but a need to be acknowledged. Society chooses which behavior, and it is behavior, to acknowledge. I am only one member of society and I only speak for myself.

One of the main reasons why Rome came apart was due to anything goes policies. Bachanal. Order eventually led to chaos and the empire fell. That is evolution as well as his example. I didn't deflect, I countered. Do you understand how debate works? I don't have to answer his proposal with a defense. I can cite an example of an opposite conclusion. It is shorthand but it is allowed in debate. No deflection - superior debating skills maybe.

Here's your agenda: "We’re saying that nature is a starting point and we as a society can grow past that limitation." "We're"? So, you don't think for yourself? Do you feel as though you all think alike because I bet you don't. That is the fallacious thinking here on you and others parts. Groupthink. That's caused a lot of trouble over the ages. Too many examples to cite. But examples of it are in California now where gays are "terrorizing" those who voted against gays in Prop 8. Gay men and women are only doing it because of groupthink and because they feel as though others have their back. You probably can't see out of it because you are in it. I can see it. It is actually very closeminded and actually leads to evolving of the group into extinction. Check history. Groupthink doesn't allow new thoughts into the group, only the same old, same old. I saw it here. But you didn't. I am sure.

My position has only changed in the amount of time that I pay attention to the issue. If gay marriage happens, so be it. I won't fight it. I will fully support civil unions. I am exhausted by the beligerence of gays under the guise of "if you knew how it felt to be denied a right for this long, you'd be angry too". It is a small, small but very vocal minority within the gay minority that is pushing the agenda of gays. I don't have the energy to care that much.

*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.

The commenter archive features may be temporarily disabled at times.