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Comments on Bigot. by Chip Daniels in reply to George Turner

Nope.
He was an American.

So your theory is that had Obama done all those wonderful things, he would have won support from Republicans?

I want to live in such a beautiful world.

Policies like...health care reform?
Like, the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau?
Like, appointing diverse federal judges who themselves came from communities of color?

See, you're imagining a world which actually happened, but somehow was vociferously opposed by Republicans.

Even today, the chief goal of Republicans is to destroy anything done by Obama, just for spite.

I'm baffled why you think that just making white Republicans feel good about themselves would have changed their opposition to anything Obama.

Which is why when I go to an Antifa rally, my sign says "We Came Unarmed- THIS TIME"

Gotta thank the lawyers for the disclaimer.

Anecdotal data, supported by physical evidence is what we call history.

A conclusion demands both types of evidence since by themselves each is incomplete and untrustworthy.

How do you know that you have gathered all the data?
How do you know the collection methodology wasn't tainted? Or the process used to analyze it wasn't itself flawed?
And so on.

What we are talking about here is sociology, a field where objective data is very hard to come by and even harder to analyze.

"One signed receipt for the Swedish Penis Pump Enlarger 3000..."

There are those invited to the party;

Those not invited to the party;

and those who thought the party was in the basement of Comet PingPong.

Indifference is really the key word here for most of this conversation.

When people say they see no difference between Warren and Trump, or state that racism isn't really the existential threat that Democrats make it out to be, it appears to me as a shoulder shrugging indifference to the lived experiences of others.

That our perspective- as white educated comfortably employed people- is the correct and accurate view of things, while the experiences of women, people of color, are somehow skewed and out of step with objective reality.

I'll just say that a white guy telling us that racism is a minor problem in America is...not a persuasive argument.

Well yeah.
If someone wants to make a case that Liz Warren is somehow the McCarthy to Trump's Stalin, that's going to be a hilarious effort.

I don't support Stalin, and I need to stress this clearly.
But the dissidents, in particular Solzhenitzen, are a bunch of illiberal prigs.

Stalin is presiding over the biggest economic expansion in our lifetimes, and frankly, the damage that the dissidents could cause would be more of a threat than anything Stalin could do.

But please, if you keep hysterically hyperventilating about the starvation and gulags like I am some moral monster, that will just make me reluctantly support Stalin.

Which I don't, let me stress that again. But I am anti-anti Stalin, and by that I mean Stalin is the least bad alternative.

That omelette of economic growth sure needs a lot of eggs.

She: "You are not treating me with respect."

He: "Well actually, you are saying this only because of your emotional feelings which are invalid based on some nebulous and poorly defined idea of "respect" and here let me show you this chart of statistics demonstrating the frequency of endearments, and a regression analysis of lovemaking, all of which proves you are either lying, or stupid."

Tell you what.

I will be the Stalin to your FDR and we can quarrel after we defeat the Trumpist powers.

Which makes an interesting comment about how we as a people view work.

We hear often that if we offer people free money they will stop working and loaf all day, but here, you not only are offering people money but actually have to use subtle coercion to force them to stop working.

From over at Balloon Juice, they reference a series of comments from Josh Marshall describing how Trumps reelection strategy is to use racism as a tool to keep his base whipped up in a fever, splitting the country and hoping to get the bigger half.

This is supported by the new poll showing that support for Trump among Republicans actually rose as a result of his racist tweets.

Which brings me back to my point that there is no centrist lane for candidates to pull from. The 2020 election will be one of those single issue elections where you are either in the White Supremacy Party or you are not.

Mommy said they had to take our food stamps because concentration camp contractors needed new yachts.

If I called this behavior evil and unjust though,though, you wouldn't argue the point?

"At a Border Patrol holding facility in El Paso, Texas, an agent told a Honduran family that one parent would be sent to Mexico while the other parent and their three children could stay in the United States, according to the family. The agent turned to the couple’s youngest daughter — 3-year-old Sofia, whom they call Sofi — and asked her to make a choice.

“The agent asked her who she wanted to go with, mom or dad,” her mother, Tania, told NPR through an interpreter. “And the girl, because she is more attached to me, she said mom. But when they started to take [my husband] away, the girl started to cry. The officer said, ‘You said [you want to go] with mom.’ “

But yeah.
Taxes, man.

What I discovered when I became a liberal is that when you start to speak about doing things on behalf of the oppressed rather than yourself, people notice when your claims of harm are different than what the oppressed themselves say.

That is, your claims of the harm done to minority communities, and the proposed solutions, sound very different than what those people themselves say.

The issue for a lot of us Dems is that we view Trump and the GOP as an existential threat to liberal democracy itself.

It isn't policy x or y, its literally the ability of our nation to function as a democracy the way we've known it.

I know that sounds overly melodramatic to some, but I would point to how common illiberal democracy is around the world currently, everywhere from Putin's Russia to Xi's China, to the various types of somewhat illiberal democracies in Europe like Hungary and Poland.

The idea that America could become a lesser-than-free democracy is very real in my mind. Not a nightmare like Nazi Germany, but just one of those dreary little petty 3rd World kleptocracies where things sort of run along with the appearance of normalcy, but the government is hopelessly inept except with regard to graft and the occasional brutality done in the shadows.

So I don't know, when people sort of do this chin stroking thing of discussing Trump like he's a normal politician proposing normal policy stuff it leaves me dumbfounded.

It reminds me of that friend I had who was a missionary in Argentina in the 70s during the Dirty War. When I asked him if he didn't find it scary, he laughed and said he had no idea it was going on.

Because petty tyrannies are like that, where there is this large group of people who live completely untroubled lives, never experiencing the brutal fist of the government.

Us folks here at OT are those sorts of people.

With maybe one or two exceptions, no one here is going to ever experience a rough ride in a police van, or have our children ripped away from us, or watch a loved one be shot by the cops with impunity.

For me, that's how I make sense of the apparent blithe indifference of the 3rd party stuff. Where a potential tax hike become the deciding variable, because everything else is just a statistic, an abstraction.

"I endorse the articles in Playboy, not the nekkid pictures!"

That too, is a choice of priorities.

Imagine the worst that Warren could do, and compare that to the worst that the Trump can do.

Any answer you give reveals a moral choice, a statement of what is important or not.

None of us are innocent bystanders, impassive observers. We're all players in this, and we all have some ownership in how things turn out.

Every choice is a statement of priorities.

Voting 3rd party means "The incumbent doesn't bother me enough to evict him".

It doesn't mean you love the incumbent, it just means whatever he's doing isn't of sufficient harm to you that ousting him becomes a top priority.

Now it's entirely possible that enough Americans feel this way to let Trump win re-election, I just don't know.

I just don't think anyone should be bamboozled by the argument that had the Dems done something else, it would change things.

Well I'm back on the bigger picture of how Hillary becomes the Democratic party in toto.

I mean I can grasp the logic of someone not liking her even unto seeing Trump as less evil.

But what about the downballot candidates, the state legs, city council,governor, Congresspeople?

Are these AnyonebutHillary folks voting D for all races except the Presidency?

Or is there something uniquely evil about all those other candidates that makes the Republican the lesser evil in every case?

I can't remember a time when so many members of a party went to such incredible lengths to denounce it while at the same time voting for it straight ticket.

FWIW, I enjoy coming here because there are conservatives about.

I lurk in Balloon Juice and snark on LGM, but its nice to actually have opposing viewpoints to tilt against.

And given the absolute sewer that most open comment boards devolve into this place is like a Casablanca where we fight by singing the Marseillaise just a bit louder.

I want to live in a world in which Saul is the voice of the radical extremists.

You asked if we were "allowed to make a distinction between “doesn’t agree with Democrat priorities and policy proposals” and “fucking asshole racist Trumpy”.

And when I suggest Jeb Bush, you tell us that he is in fact a racist.

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here, but you seem to be going in the wrong direction.

As long as the truth is met with hot debate, it needs to be spoken.

The "I believe it is genocide" doesn't cut it.

There are an infinite number of people who would say the same about factory farming, global warming, or the capital gains tax, but when people lose their ability to abide by the norms of a liberal democracy, they need to be defeated for that fact alone.

I'm not here to convert anyone.

I'm not trying to be the pickup artist of politics, to slyly get Trumpists to vote Democrat even if they hate themselves in the morning.

The most persuasive argument is always to just speak the truth. If people reject that, they were never "gettable" to begin with.

Those 97% of Republicans who support Trump could, if they were not racist, draft a Jeff Flake, Ben Sasse, or Justin Amash.

But then again, they could have easily supported Jeb Bush in 2016 and gotten a tax cut and a Justice Kavanaugh all the same.

They support Trump because of, not in spite of, his racism. This is a conscious choice they have made, even though others were available to them.

I attack Trump's supporters because injustice never likes to operate out in the open.

All unjust regimes surround themselves with a thick protective cover of apologists who aid in dismissing, denying, and distracting.

Sometimes they are deliberate, sometimes they are useful idiots, but they are critical to sowing confusion and reasonable doubt, to cause the opponents of the regime to hold their fire and be silent.

Notice how even such obvious outrages as the treatment of children in the camps is met with a blizzard of legalistic parsing, challenges to the veracity of the accusers, distractions and whataboutisms.

The first step in attacking injustice is to refuse to accept the lies and evasions and distractions, and to call it by its true name.

I do understand it.

Preventing women from having access to abortion justifies ripping infants from their mothers arms. Justifies empowering a national culture that views anyone nonwhite as inferior, lesser being undeserving of respect or dignity. Justifies an authoritarian government without any checks on its power.

I get it, I really do, we all get the calculus. Saul has been talking about strategic voting since day one.

Do you understand it,though?
Do you have any idea how far these people are willing to go to accomplish their goal?

When an injustice is happening, there are only two courses available.

Opposing it, or not.

There are an unlimited ways to oppose Trumps bigotry without being a Democrat.

The elephant in the room is that even today, after all we have seen of this man, about 40% of American voters approve of him.

It doesn't matter if they "hold their nose" or are reluctant, or are ironic, they are supporting him, and will vote to continue this because bigotry and open racism don't bother them.

Can we at least drop the yelps about incivility and call them deplorable?