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AvatarComments by Stillwater in reply to JoeSal*

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Why should Warren be concerned about the press hitting Hunter Biden?

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Elizabeth Warren tweets:

After the Mueller report, Congress had a duty to begin impeachment. By failing to act, Congress is complicit in Trump’s latest attempt to solicit foreign interference to aid him in US elections. Do your constitutional duty and impeach the president.

She gets it.

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then he broke the law

Good thing for him it was one of those un-impeachable offenses.

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A hundred times worse for who? The people who elected him? (???)

That makes no sense.

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The massive downside risk I see isn't just limited to this election cycle North. Failing to impeach Trump is something the party will have to live with, and live down, for at least a generation.

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No it's an almost direct quote from Pelosi herself. So in that sense maybe it *is* similar to the Tea Party. A set of promises based on lies?

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Clinton had very high favorables and was charged with lying about a blowjob

Trump has very low favorables and is charged with (eg) attempting to extort a foreign government for personal political favors.

I mean, I realize we're just banging heads on this issue at this point, but it's entirely obvious to me that there's no downside risk to aggressively investigating Trump via House impeachment powers whereas there's massive downside risk to not impeaching and being viewed (correctly, in my view) as complicit in Trump's corruption.

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North, the public doesn't support impeachment right now because a) the Dems haven't engaged in any serious investigation of Trump's corruption*, and b) Pelosi herself is against impeachment.

*Remember when Pelosi said that one of the first things the Dem House would do is get a copy of Trump's taxes? Oh my .... I can't stop laughing....

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Precisely.

Angry Democrat in 2021: "Look, it's not our fault Trump didn't get impeached in his first term, it's Mitch McConnell's fault."

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As long as the GOP is united in support of Trump; pressuring Pelosi is simply advocating for banging her head against a wall; no surprise she would decline.

Compare the above to: As long as the GOP controls the Senate passing bills out of the house is just banging her head against a wall; no surpise she would decline.

There's only one thing the Dem House can do right now that will have an effect on politics and policy: formally open an impeachment inquiry into Trump and his cohorts. The alternative - focusing on their legislative agenda - is not only just banging their heads against a wall, it's fiddling while rome burns.

Or shorter: every time Pelosi refuses to open an impeachment inquiry the Dems chances of winning in 2020 go down.

On “Clown Show: Corey Lewandowski Amuses Himself at Jerry Nadler’s Circus

Expressing dignity in defeat is something Democrats are getting quite good at.

OTOH, dignity might require holding Trump WH officials accountable, by holding them in contempt or even opening up impeachment inquiries.

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One of the amusing and slightly disturbing consiequences of discussing this issue with you and Saul and others is that each conversation makes it slightly more difficult for me to justify voting for Democrats. Which is weird....

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but I doubt that a case can be made with the evidence currently available that will sway the republican and independent voters that would need to be swayed.

The point isn't to convince them on the merits, North. It's to convince them - and more importantly convince liberal-leaning folks who don't vote or won't vote for Ds - that the Democrats can, and will, use the levers of power to actually fight for a tangible goal.

Getting rolled on every level of politics and governance on\ly to stand up in an election year and say "vote for us!" is a tough sell to anyone who isn't already a Dem voter.

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North, the point of impeaching Trump isn't to remove him from office, it's to (pretend to) fight against a corrupt administration in order to give the (false) impression that Democrats care about the rule of law and accountability. But at this point I'm convinced that the reason people resist impeaclhment isn't because of the base politics or whatever other nonsense excuse they give, but because they think the Democrats are too incompetent to pull it off. That's a helluva campaign message going into 2020, right? "Vote Dem in 2020. We're too incompetent to fight for our values but we're not as bad as Trump!"

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Letting Trump hang himself could be a viable political strategy

Yes yes! Let's try that out!*

* Well, I'd like to see ol Donny Trump wriggle his way out of THIS jam!
*Trump wriggles his way out of the jam easily*
Ah! Well. Nevertheless,

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Co-sign.

Pelosi and Dem leadership aren't trying to win an election, they're trying to not lose it.

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Nadler to committee after the hearing: "Good job everyone. Our plan worked. All of America saw that the GOP brought guns to what was obviously a knife fight."

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The best argument against going for impeachment that i’ve seen is that Pelosi knows her own coalition is to incompetent and disorganized to do it.

I also hold this theory. But as Philip mentions, it's a problem easily solved *if* there is a political will within the party to hold Trump admin officials accountable.

There isn't. And the irony here, IMO, is that there's a straight line from the Obama admin's failure to hold Bush officials accountable to Trump's election as POTUS. Pelosi is gambling that *not* holding government officials in a rogue administration will work out better for Dems this time.

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I agree with Jaybird's point too: by definition her job as Speaker is to ensure that Dems retain the House. It doesn't follow from that platitude that whatever actions she takes will, in fact, increase the likelihood of Dems holding the House.

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Meanwhile Pelosi can focus on other matters.

What other matters? Her entire focus, seems to me, is on playing both sides of impeachment politics.

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Nadler prepping his committee for battle: "I trust that you've all practiced a smooth delivery of your best soundbites, but I want to remind you it could get rough out there. Did everyone bring a knife?"

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Externalities and collective action problems aren't constructs.

On “The Most Insidious Viral Marketing In The World

And 2. The left is losing the cultural war. Badly. Oh, they are winning the battles, but much like Vietnam, that isn’t the important part.

I guess I have to ask if you're equating electoral politics and culture here, since it seems pretty clear - obvious, almost - that the left is winning the culture war (most of the left's views on major issues enjoy majority support nationally and within most states) but losers elections, and I think a non-negligible part of the latter is a result of structural issues like gerrymandering and voter suppression. I mean, polling consistently shows that even self-identified conservatives support policy positions advocated by the left but which are consistently opposed by the GOP Congresscritters they elect to represent them. Which suggests a third option here: that the left isn't losing the culture war, but the Party-branding war.

*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.