A More Polarized Union?
Former OTer Jamelle Bouie argues that we are heading for a more polarizing political future.
Bouie’s argument is based on speeches given by Hillary Rodham Clinton (almost certainly the Democratic nominee in 2016) and Scott Walker (a strong contender for the GOP nomination). Bouie notes that Clinton is following the heart of the Democratic Party and seemingly abandoning the triangulating moderation that launched Bill Clinton’s Presidential ambitions and victories. HRC’s policies to boost working and middle-class incomes are tax-reform to encourage long-term investment instead of quarterly dividends and profits, more money for Social Security and the ACA and protections for freelancers, young, and low-income workers among other things. Clinton also mentioned that she was skeptical about the sharing and freelance economies.
Scott Walker’s proposals are a bigger version of his tenure as Wisconsin Governor. Bouie described them as devolving medicare back to the states, drilling for oil, and an appeal of the ACA (with Walker it is hard to tell whether this is a cynical gesture or a sincere wish).
Bouie notes that the most important observation is the seeming lack of overlap in approaches. While it is true that winning a primary means playing for the base. Both candidates appear to be trying to win the general by a get out the vote plan instead of appealing to a broad-based group in the general public.
What I think is that people are very angry and frustrated and still experiencing shocks from the Great Recession. There is a sense that home ownership is beyond the grasp of a lot of Millennials. People who lost their jobs during the Great Recession are still struggling to recover old ground and finding that they can’t afford to live in places that they called home for decades.
Lots of things have gotten much more affordable over the past few decades and these are things that make life more bearable and fun. Housing and Medical Care seem to be constantly spiraling upwards in a never-ending fashion. The only thing that seems to make housing affordable is living in a distant and/or unsafe area from where the jobs are.
I’ve written before about how we seem to be developing a tale of two economies on a variety of levels. There is a national level where a few states and cities command large chunks of the money and economy of the United States. New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, Seattle, Portland, and many other cities are seeing population and economic increases and gains and this is the opposite of the late 1970s and early 80s when those cities were at rock-bottom and nearly bankrupt. But a new generation of cities is going bankrupt and suffering decline. But there are economic divisions within those cities. The Bay Area is really good if you are in the tech industry or own a business that caters to the whims and fancies of techies. The Bay Area is seemingly not so good for anyone who is not fortunate enough to be involved in tech. Kevin Drum noted recently that the U.S. added 223,000 new jobs in June but the rest of the report was bad news. Unemployment decreased because nearly 500,000 people left the labor force, not because unemployed or underemployed people got jobs and real wage growth was negative. The Atlantic also noted that the last time labor participation was this low was in the 1970s.
So it seems that a lot of Americans feel a lot of stress and despair about their economic futures. We are far from being as bad as Greece and Spain but there are still a lot of glum feelings around. The technocratic talk of cheaper gadgets is not selling anymore and the technocratic policy wonks don’t know what to do except repeat their old messages over and over again. We have wealthy tech wonks wondering about the psychological benefits of a 32-hour week (video) but people are saying “Hey man, I just want to stop this drowning feeling and be able to live in the place I called home for decades or my entire life.” Economic insecurity leads to people feeling rather angry and exhausted and the more it goes on, the more people are going to be drawn to farther left and farther right politics. This is especially true when a self-styled elite class of wonks portrays their political and policy preferences as hard facts or just the way it is. People don’t like being condescended to and they dislike that a handful of people can seemingly control the nature of employment and benefits.
I don’t know which factors drive people to farther left politics or farther right politics. Some of it might be natural disposition. Big Audio Dynamite’s The Bottom Line contains the lines “A dance to the tune of economic decline/Is when you do the bottom line/Nagging questions always remain/Why did it happen and who was to blame?” People on both the Democratic and Republican lines are likely to blame the “elites”. What is interesting is that both parties have very different notions and definitions of who is the elite and what makes someone elite. There are also notions on the right and left of economics being a zero-sum game and there are always demagogues to portray it this way. I am old enough to remember the infamous “Hands” ad. Donald Trump seems to be going the “Hands” route for his Presidential campaign.
1970s Britain faced a steep and serious economic crisis and climate with concerns about power outages and rising costs of living. According to Dominic Sandbrook in Seasons in the Sun: The Battle for Britain, 1974-1979, Harold Wilson confessed to his aides that he “only had the same old solutions for the same old problems’. This seems to be the issue in the United States right now. Everyone realizes that the picture is not as bright as it seems. We are facing a future where more and more jobs might be automated but all parties involved. No politician or wonk is going to say “Things are fucked and the only thing we can do is wait and see.” The problem is that everyone is like Harold Wilson and only going for their old solutions with the words try it more and try it harder added. Part of this might be the natural way politics works. We are simply at the point where the center-left is not going to give up on the Welfare State and the center-right is not going to admit a welfare state is potentially necessary. There is no Balm in Gilead from the technocratic crowd either. Even the biggest technocrat would need to admit that building at full speed ahead is going to take many years before housing prices let up because it takes a long time to build a multi-story building even if you streamline the permit process and are as developer friendly as possible while still being safe. Building might be one of those things where demand can never out pace supply except in areas with mediocre or worse economies.
Things seem rather unstable and unsustainable but unsustainable systems have a way of existing for long times and then suddenly collapsing. I am starting to wonder if everyone including the elites worries about a future of long-term and maybe life-long underemployment for most Americans and they are just afraid to admit this is true. I can’t imagine any politician would last long if they said something like “The United States might just not be able to produce that many high-paying or decent paying jobs anymore. We might have an oversupply for almost every profession imaginable. Going to university or grad school is going to be necessary for these good jobs but only you will only be given a gambling chance at success.” GBI might help but so far I only see GBI mentioned on political blogs by a small minority of liberals and libertarians. The United States will probably never be as bad as Greece or Spain but that doesn’t mean that it will be pleasant for the majority.
Notably, between Clinton and Walker, one of the two is the party’s overwhelming favorite, and the other is the furthest-from-center of those with a clear path to the nomination.
I suspect that if Clinton sticks left and the Republicans stick right, one of these visions is going to win and the other will adjust accordingly within a decade.Report
Well obviously one is going to win.
I just don’t see how the parties can adjust though.
Suppose the GOP sticks to the right and wins the general. What can the Democratic Party abandon? Climate Change? Marriage Equality and LGBT0-rights? Immigration reform? the Welfare State that remains?
Suppose HRC see stays to the left and wins. What can the GOP change? What if we get a situation where the Democratic Party has a natural lock on the Presidency but the GOP remains in firm control of the House because of gerrymandering? What if it is only the Senate that is up for grabs?
What if Democratic Power gets locked in the Presidency and a certain amount of states like the Coastal ones and Upper MIdwest while the GOP retains firm control over the rest of the states?Report
A lock will be temporary. If the GOP wins in 2016 or 2020, they stand a good chance of having the presidency and both houses. I’d the Democratic majority is real (or is really a liberal majority) they’ll have a good enough showing in 2020 to get some statehouses and control redistricting. And if the GOP loses three or four elections straight against increasingly leftward Democrats, controlling the House won’t be enough in any event. Parties are not content t9 control a house.Report
Here is an interesting story:
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2015/07/volunteer_professor_ad_it_says_a_lot_about_the_sorry_state_of_academia.html
A very small college in Virginia had an opening for a volunteer professor. The job posting was never intended for the general public but it somehow got picked up by a site like Indeed. This caused a lot of hurt among academics who felt like they were being offered room and board (5 meals a week) instead of pay for teaching.
Is there any field that does not have oversupply but is also not highly technical?Report
Country’s moved left since Clinton. Libertarians included.Report
And GOP has moved right.Report
These two in combination leave me wondering how the GOP has, then, managed to make such substantial gains in statehouses and governors offices.Report
Arguably, at least, it’s the difference between “the country” and “the voters”… particularly pertaining to mid-term elections.Report
GOP voters tend to vote in more elections than Democratic voters for a variety of reasons. The political geography of the United States also favors the Republicans in legislative elections.Report
This was my thought also. Or, to put it another way, they do seemed to have moved right. Right into more state houses, senate seats and house seats.Report
@aarondavid
But I think Lee has a good point that this is because of political geography potentially more than more and more Americans believing in GOP talking points.
Liberals tend to live in concentrated areas and they can dominate states where the cities can dominate politics or there is a long progressive tradition. Do you think the GOP has a chance of winning a state-wide race in California in the immediate future? Do you think they have a chance of taking back either part of the California legislature? The GOP is winning in some areas while turning themselves into a permanent rump party in other areas.
A place like Kansas has a long GOP history. Colorado and Wisconsin have long purple histories.
California, Washington, Oregon, and Vermont used to be strong GOP states. Bill Clinton was the first Democratic President to win California’s electoral college vote since Johnson in 1964. It was pretty recently that we had the Governator. Now the GOP has some strong holds for congressional seats but even those could change.
Issa’s district barely swings to the R camp now.
I think you are underplaying the role of partisanship and gerrymandering and geographical advantage here and confusing it with the majority of Americans agreeing with the GOP ideology. The Democratic Party and their candidates did win more votes than the GOP in the past few elections:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/01/05/senate-democrats-got-20-million-more-votes-than-senate-republicans-which-means-basically-nothing/
The issue is that Democratic voters are highly concentrated because they tend to be urban and the fault of this makes them vulnerable to gerrymandering. If you look at safe Democratic districts, they tend to be really safe with margins of the candidates winning 70-90 percent of the votes. Safe GOP districts tend to be safe by something like 55 percent of the vote. So comfortable and nearly impossible to overcome for a variety of complicated reasons but not as overwhelmingly safe as Democratic districts.
Basically, just because there are a lot of low-population and homogeneous and largely rural states that give the GOP and advantage in state-wide politics does not mean that the majority of Americans agrees with them. Now this doesn’t make their victories less than legitimate, the system is the way it is but it does not mean that the American public is in totes agreement with the GOP either.Report
Yes, but having just the cities dominate politics doesn’t mean the polity is totes agreement with demo positions either. In other words, look at the list of NYC mayors, and there is a long list of D’s from the 60’s, until you get to Guliani. People wanted something different. A change in how the city was run. My point being that much of this is in flux, and just because one group is the constant campaigner for an area doesn’t mean all of the people agree with them. “Final statewide results certified by California Secretary of State Debra Bowen today show the November 4, 2014, General Election brought a record low turnout for a regularly scheduled general election: 42.2 percent of registered voters. By contrast, the last gubernatorial general election in November 2010 drew nearly 60 percent of registered voters” in other words, just because the left is winning in these areas, doesn’t mean that everyone is out voting for them. Voters might like D’s more that R’s in those areas at this time, but that doesn’t behold them to always vote that way, or for those who are not voting to keep not voting.
But our system is set up on a national level to control (mostly) for that. Hence senators are not a gerrymanderable position. Nor is the president or governors, though I guess you could make an argument that the gerrymandering is the states. Good luck with that though.Report
@michael-cain
1. There have been a lot of studies that show that the American public downplays or simply does not believe in the radicalism of the GOP.
2. What Lee said. The fact that GOP voters are older and wealthier makes them more likely to come out in mid-term and off-year elections.
3. Liberals tend to concentrate more than GOPers.Report
Mid-term electorate is substantially different than Presidential years.
I think the fact that the GOP has started approaching gerrymandering with a fervor that is really..unusual…(Texas’ mid-cycle changes, Florida’s changes that just got bounced by a court, etc) and working really hard to making it more difficult to vote for Democratic constituencies is probably pretty telling of their actual concerns.
I honestly think the GOP is getting the shaft from the people that stay home in off-years. This basically creates a push-pull dynamic in the GOP that prevents them from moderating. Extremism is punished in Presidential years, rewarded in off years, and basically has them stuck. The gerrymandering and voter suppression stuff seems like an attempt to break out of the trap (only aimed at Presidential years, not off years. Which makes sense. Why would the GOP encourage democratic voters to show up?)Report
The formal political science term for what the GOP is doing is Constitutional hardball. American politics like the politics of other nations is governed by a series of norms in addition to formal rules and procedures. The high number of veto points and other unique features of the American government make following the norms really important. What the Republican party has been doing is ignoring all those norms for short term benefit.Report
These two in combination leave me wondering how the GOP has, then, managed to make such substantial gains in statehouses and governors offices.
Yeah, that’s an interesting dynamic, if actually true. Personally, I think the GOP has very visibly moved to the right both socially and economically, but I don’t think the country as a whole (whatever that means!) has moved to the left, especially on economic issues. In particular, I don’t think the Democratic party has moved further to the left than it’s ever been, and if anything has moved substantially to the right in recent years. But even if that quick analysis is right, it doesn’t account for conservatives making remarkably huge strides in recent years at the state and Fedrul CC level.
Personally, I think they’ve been so successful because conservatives are better organized on the ground and are acting on a strategy of developing political support and success from the inside out, from the local to the national. And to a great extent (it seems to me) they’ve been successful in that endeavor due to conservative politicians not only advocating policies supported by the base, but appealing to folks who (for whatever reason!) think that traditionally liberal policies are no longer the best solution to our national, state-level, local, economic problems.
I mean, I’ve said this before, but in the last two presidential elections the conservative candidate ran a campaign that bordered on sketch comedy, yet each of them garnered high fortyish percentiles in voting. Clearly, lots of folks are predisposed at this point to not vote Dem even when their candidate reveals himself as politically incompetent.Report
I definitely think it’s tribal for a solid 60-80% of voters (which, actually, may be rational since there’s a lot more difference between a “centrist” democratic presidency and “centrist” GOP presidency than between Clinton and Warren (or Theoretical Centrist Conservative and Walker).
The GOP tends to dominate rural environments while Dems dominate cities. That means the GOP gets a LOT more natural territory, and a bunch of states, with wildly over-represented voters (not just gerrymandering, which BSD and the GOP just happens to be better at, but state-level stuff too). That’ll change with demographics, as it couldn’t be clearer that the GOP cannot win non-white voters.Report
“Personally, I think they’ve been so successful because conservatives are better organized on the ground and are acting on a strategy of developing political support and success from the inside out, from the local to the national.”
Very much this. The right has for some decades now emphasized local organization and elections to town councils and school boards. The left, its motto of ‘think global act local’ notwithstanding, largely sucks at this.Report
There lots of debates on why this is among the Left. Many liberals and leftists think that the right wouldn’t be as successful as they are without the funding of lots of wealthy people. They argue that even if liberals and leftists emulated the right’s strategy, we would get fewer results because the left would lack the funding the right gets. Others, like myself, argue that many liberals and leftists prefer theatrical and exciting protest politics over the more boring but effective politics of going to meetings and voting in elections from the bottom to the top.Report
Dont you know? The liberal default answer is the koch bros. Blaming them releaves them of having to think critically about the left’s policies.Report
That isn’t what any liberal on this site has said.Report
Oh really? You’d have me believe that no one here has blamed the kochs for the multitude of issues? Yea right.Report
That’s one person’s opinion….This libertarian certainly never moved left. He moved on a different axis.Report
Myself, I found different allies.Report
I think things are going to get more polarized until something breaks. I think that thing will be the economy. How it happens I got no idea, but I am pretty sure it wont be social issues like the ones you mention. and that is because you are right, neither party is going to budge on those, they are too much red meat for the base. But the economy is the one area that you can through shit at the wall and see if it sticks. And as soon as one party finds the right thing, its all over. They will pick up house seats and then senate seats, state houses and judges etc. Much like the left did in the ’30’s and the right did under Regan. And at that point they will get the spoils, which are the social issues.
And then the whole thing will start over again. Thus it always was.Report
Or there can be massive economic growth and this whole thing will be forgotten.
Though it is still troubling that we are far apart socially.
Despite what I wrote to you above, I think the GOP could theoretically be competitive with a certain segment of the San Francisco population. At least to win a potential seat or two from the tonier districts for the Board of Supervisors. They just need to be able to have an honest to god Rockefeller Republican. I don’t think this will happen anytime soon.Report
If there is massive economic growth, to the victor goes the spoils. Also, if Democrats go back to Clinton era policies, more people in the center of the country would vote for them.Report
HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Oh wait, you were serious.
Haven’t you worked it out yet? No matter who the Democrat is running for President, they’re the “most liberal Democrat ever”. (Kerry was, then Obama. Hilariously they were both in the Senate at the same time with Bernie Sanders, but whatever). Whatever policy they enact will be the “most liberal ever”.
Were you not around during the Clinton years?Report
And yet, every conservative is the Most Conservative to the left.
And Clinton was the first pres I voted for (both terms.Report
Dont forget that every gop’er is part of the war on women, the right wing compiracy and secretly hates minorities and immigrants. Did i miss anything?Report
“and secretly hates minorities and immigrants.”
If you call that secrecy, I would hate to see what you consider overt.Report
Thanks being an example of liberals that stick to their pre conceived notions so they dont have to think.Report
Comments like this come off better when you’re less trolly yourself, fwiw.
Nevertheless, I’ll second that one. Illegal Immigration is both a pro and a con to conservatives — people are getting rich off quasi-slavery, and the people who are losing jobs because of it hate it.
So, naturally, what happens? You get completely ineffective programs designed to “band-aid” the issue, without actually stopping anyone.
And god forbid you actually make them citizens, or at least legally here. Because that would cost Hebrew National and tons of other places a shitton of money.Report
For someone who claims to be a lawyer, you seem to have a remarkably hard time constructing coherent English sentences. Perhaps the excessive rage-spittle is slicking the keys up?Report
Well, I don’t think its that much of a secret.Report
@aarondavid
Morat has a point. I gotta say that in our conversations I sometimes feel like we live in very different versions of California and the United States.
The Democratic Party is basically trying to keep what remains of the welfare state from a never ending assault from people like Walker and their financial backers. How radical is it to support the existence of programs that are between 50-80 something years old? Not very in my book.
Which policies can the Democratic Party moderate on while still being to the left of the Republicans? Money for education? Climate change? LGBT rights? Affirmative Action? Ever so slight increases in taxes on really high income earners?
A lot of middle-aged dudes have this very strong “leave me alone” attitude that I find perplexing.Report
Morat has zero point. And as much as the idea of Rockefeller republicans might appeal to the new denizins of SF,. SF is pretty hard left at this point, but with “tech 2.0” that is changing. More “Brogramers” could seriously change the dynamics of that town causing an exodus of the left to places like Oakland. That really is no different than a moderate Dem. Hell, I might even go back to voting D at that point.Report
@lwa has it correct. The issue isn’t that the Democratic Party has moved too far to the left, the issue is that the GOP has gone so far to the right that even Bill Clinton’s DLC centerism and Matt Y’s neo-liberalism looks like Trotsky and Lenin at the Finland Station.Report
Its funny how liberals always think the gop has gone to some radical place and the dems have become the reasonable moderatesReport
Simple conformation bias.Report
@aarondavid
I actually dislike the introduction of confirmation bias and other neuroscience terms in politics because everyone is smart enough to realize confirmation bias in their ideological opponents but not quite insightful to realize confirmation bias in themselves.
Everyone suffers from confirmation bias and motivated reasoning and all the other cognitive science traps. This is what makes people people. Or to err is human. Knowing a term like cognitive bias, I see “Know I will insult the other side (which I would have done anyway) but I will do so with science to make it seem like more-intelligent insulting.”Report
Eg., the confirmation bias exhibited when Aaron reduces the meta-political views of “partisans” to an expression of confirmation bias.
Oh well!Report
Of course that should be now and not know.Report
It is funny indeed.
Excuse me while I read a communique from Sanders Central explaining how he wants to raise the Social Security cap and subvert the American Way.
Just like Cloward-Piven would do.Report
It is interesting that the two main D pres candidates, one is an avowed socialist, and the other is running to the left of her husbands centrist, triangulated policies. But, no, it is just the R’s running from the center.
Sorry, when several partisans tell me the other party is the only one that is crazy, I roll my eyes and look the other direction. I don’t want the BS to get my face.Report
Sorry, when several partisans tell me the other party is the only one that is crazy, I roll my eyes and look the other direction. I don’t want the BS to get my face.
I have to apologize too, cuz whenever I hear someone account for other people’s views by attributing to them “team”-based confirmation bias I turn away. I don’t want to get all that “non-partisan”, “above the fray” icky on me.Report
Well, that is one of the nice parts of being a Libertarian, we get to look around and say “all-ya-all are ijits” while our angel wings lift us above the fray…Report
…one of the nice parts of being a Libertarian, we get to look around…
And in a definitionally non-partisan way!!!Report
I think this would have more merit if we had any reason to think that H-dawg will be running to the strongly left of center AFTER her parties nomination is secured.Report
I think things are going to get more polarized until something breaks. I think that thing will be the economy. How it happens I got no idea, but I am pretty sure it wont be social issues like the ones you mention. and that is because you are right, neither party is going to budge on those, they are too much red meat for the base.
I’m not sure the economy breaking will lead to less polarization. I actually think the opposite would be the case. I mean, we see that polarization playing out in real time right now, yes? If the economic doody hit the spinny wind making thing (which it did, statistically speaking, only a few years ago!) we’d see polarization along the already established political lines. You’d just see folks changing “teams” for purely self-interested reasons.Report
@stillwater
What I mean by break, is that there is a massive change. It could be that during the next presidency (D or R) what little recovery we have backslides into a real depression. Or, some Next Big Thing happens financially, and the economy shoots up. A la the internet years. If its bad, one party will get blamed, and if its good, one party will reap the harvest.Report
Aaron,
I think I’m confused (which is a good indicator of being actually confused): are you saying an economic collapse/surge will actually increase polarization? I thought you were saying the opposite up there.Report
@stillwater
I am saying the opposite. I am saying that the polis will see what ever happens as an excuse to go toward one party. There will still be polarization, but the nation will not be split as evenly as now. Much like during the great depression the D’s basically took over the nation and created the New Deal. They came up with a plan, and the nation leaned that way. Heavily.Report
Whenever I am tempted to bemoan the polarized state of the union, I remember my childhood during the late 60’s, and how truly polarized it was.
Part of what made that polarization truly awful was that, like the Civil war, split families and generations from each other.
There were real genuine stakes involved- most young men were confronted by the real specter of death or mutilation in the rice paddies, and the older generation were confronted by their own children chanting for the victory of the enemy. China and Russia were trul,y seriously menacing- I recall pictures of the Cultural Revolution, of mild mannered professors paraded through the streets with placards around their necks, surrounded by screaming mobs, of Russian tanks in the streets of Czechoslovakia. I remember reading Gary Allen’s “None Dare Call It Conspiracy” and while it seems like lunatic ravings (even to a precocious child) I could grasp the real terror of the writer, who was convinced that was America’s future.
This is part of why I see the GOP base as so deranged- they see a détente with a much much smaller nation like Iran as , literally Far Worse Than Munich and a President who has lobbied for no gun control bills one who will round up American into concentration camps.
The rhetoric is so wildly overblown for the actual policy differences- its as if they have to invent a Barack Obama with which to argue, (or as Jamelle Bouie himself noted after Clint Eastwood’s stunt, “an old white man arguing with an imaginary Negro”), or invent a new Hitler each week, since there is a lack of the real article.
The American left as personified by Hilary Clinton advocates a platform that would have been tame for Truman or even Eisenhower; the extreme ultra hard maximus Left of Bernie Sanders is a regurgitation of the New Deal.
There is something going on here, something dangerous, but it isn’t “polarization”; It isn’t BSDI. One side is being motivated by some sort of inchoate rage that is entirely of their own making. And the thing about rage is that it isn’t rational or amenable to calm negotiation and compromise.
The GOP base boasts of their scorn for compromise- the surest path to primary victory is in being the most outrageous, the least conciliatory, with the maximum bellicosity.
Its like an entire party of Gary Allens- terrified and enraged, but not knowing which menacing shadow to lunge at.Report
Fear sells eyeballs. 24-7 cable news needs to keep people glued to it.
The GOP sorta hitched their wagon to this with Rush, back in the day, and the Southern Strategy (which, at it’s base, was to keep white people afraid and angry with minorities). Add in cable news, and the media jumps whole hog into things. Anything to keep the eyeballs glued.
Not to say the Democrats are blameless, but the GOP was in on the ground floor of this thing and sorta reaped the whirlwind.
Now days, i can’t tell which politicians are pandering and which drank the kool-aid.Report
@morat20
Why settle? Why can’t they be pandering and drinking the kool-aid at the same time?Report
Oh, I’m sure people cross the lines on various issues. But I also think that there’s certainly a problem with people having grown up on red meat believing it.
Among other things, you wouldn’t have the subdued panic as the GOP tries to tone down the crazies and deal with Trump.
I think Citizens United might have bitten the GOP on the rear.Report
I think we get transfixed by the social changes such as SSM and forget how truly leftist things were in the past compared to how conservative they are now.
Gary Allen who I referenced was within the mainstream of Bircherite conservative thought when he accused Nixon of being in league with the nefarious Communist cabal, because Nixon had wage and price controls, and instituted wideranging governmental controls like the EPA.
Who remembers that? That up until Reagan a lot of prices of things like milk and gasoline had their price regulated like utilities, a holdover from WWII. That during the 1950’s most European nations nationalized (i.e. SOCIALIZED) their basic industries? And the US did the same during WWII?
How many people know that socialism has a long and proud history in America, wholly separate and apart from Soviet and Chinese influence? Not just the Populists but organizations like The Grange and farmers cooperatives, the Arts and Crafts movement (Those dreamy romantic Pre-Raphaelite paintings? That Morris Craftsman Chair and Stickley side table? Goddam Socialists they were)
So the timid notion that reinstating Glass-Stegal, a law from our grandparent’s day is somehow is a terrifying lurch to the unknown territory of Stalinist state planning is the product of both historical ignorance and fear mongering.Report
You’re talking about price controls as though they were a good thing that led to a healthy, low-unemployment economy.
I’m thinking more about gas shortages and stagflation.Report
And 20% interest rates, from Savings and Loans, on deposits. Oh yes, fun times.Report
I was only pointing out that 2015 Hilary is more conservative than 1968 Hubert Humphrey, while 2015 Scott Walker would have been one of the “kooks” that Buckley expelled in the 1960s from the conservative movement.Report
@lwa
Yes and no. I think it depends on the issue. The current Democratic support for LGBT rights would probably be shocking to Humphrey.
But Humphrey was a product of his time and that time was the Great Depression and WWII. His original desire was to be a university professor but he had to delay his education because of the Great Depression and help out at the family pharmacy, a task he hated.
HRC is very much a product of people like Humphrey making sure their kids did not have to sacrifice their dreams.Report
The problem with the whole “X time is more liberal/conservative than Y time” idea is that it implies that all the vectors of political and social movement can be subsumed into an overly simplistic left/right gauge.
Almost no one in the present thinks that highest marginal tax rates in 90th percentile is a good idea, which would imply a move to the right. But almost no one in the present would publicly stand up for legally-enforced segregation, so that implies a move toward a more liberal state. So why bother? Why not instead simply deal with the evolution of ideas and positions as they are, for themselves?Report
Yes, that’s true, except we are dealing with the proposition that there exists a “center” and both sides- (Both Sides, mind you!) have run away to their respective poles.
In this proposition, Obama and Hilary are extremists, outliers from the sensible, traditional, reasonable center.
So its worth looking at the evolution of political scales over time. If there is such a thing as a center, it has moved one way on social issues, and a different way on economic issues.
It needs to be said repeatedly that even the ideas of Bernie Sanders, Socialist, would seem tame and common sense to earlier generations, while the ideas of Scott Walker would have been too radical even for Goldwater.Report
That proposition is questionable.
Where was the Democratic Party center in the 1960s on the issues of civil rights or the wae in Vietnam?
It needs to be said repeatedly that even the ideas of Bernie Sanders, Socialist, would seem tame and common sense to earlier generations, while the ideas of Scott Walker would have been too radical even for Goldwater.
That statement is only true to the extent that you choose the “ideas” and the members of “earlier generations” that make it true. And even then, so what? There are “earlier generations” that would find it mad that women can vote and that we fly through the air in funny-looking metal tubes. What does that have to do with civil rights and aeronautical engineering?Report
Though to libertarians and neoliberals, the trajectory of history (at least in broad strokes does look rosy) The consensus on personal, economic and civil liberties has shifted in a direction of greater liberty on all fronts.Report
Maybe. I think Orange County would have elected someone like Scott Walker for most of their 20th century history. His brand of conservatism did start in Southern California.Report
Like @aarondavid said, it’ll be the economy.
Things will lumber along…until they don’t. One day, it’ll just stop. Thing will go to hell in a hand basket and what was will end and something will come up from those ashes. It’ll likely be different from what we see now, and much nastier.Report
Saul
How funny you mention the low labor force participation rate. Last economic thread i brought that up and kazzy and others insisted that it didn’t matter or wasnt relevant.Report
Wrong, @notme . Wrong wrong wrong. But so expected that you would completely distort the facts.
I never said it didn’t matter or wasn’t relevant. I said looking at absolute numbers was not useful when you are making comparisons across vastly different population sizes. If you remember, I linked to the rate itself and noted that we were indeed at modern lows but far from the historic numbers that the absolute figures would indicate. I wasn’t criticizing concern over labor participation, I was criticizing the bullshit, talk radio argument you attempted to trot out and could not defend because, well, it was fucking bullshit.
So, if you can demonstrate why making comparisons of absolute numbers with regards to labor participation rate (which is *exactly* what you were doing in that thread) is relevant or meaningful, by all means, make that argument. If you can’t, then piss the fuck off.Report
How disappointing that you react in such an uncultured fashion.Report
Kazzy bellyfeel, not thinkwrite. Savetime plusgood.Report
Just admit that you got caught using the wrong numbers and move on. It’s not a big deal. It’s just weird because the un-fudged normalized stat would have made your point perfectly well.Report
@troublesome-frog
But that isn’t the number being parroted on talk radio and Fox News and the like. @notme is a slogan machine… nothing more.Report
You mean silly slogans like “war on women?”Report
” I am starting to wonder if everyone including the elites worries about a future of long-term and maybe life-long underemployment for most Americans and they are just afraid to admit this is true.”
Yuuuup. What happened to the jobs in 2008 was not that people suddenly had no money; what happened was that companies had been looking at ways to replace their non-business-related activities with websites, and an economic downturn provided the perfect excuse. Sorry, we fired most of HR, but you who remain can log onto our new Intranet Portal to fill out your timecards and check up on medical insurance coverage. Sorry, we fired first-level tech support, but would you like to check our website for answers to common problems?Report