Why Don’t Liberals Care About Foreign Policy?
~by Ryan B.
Now, not to pick on Matt Yglesias, because I don’t think he’s necessarily worse than most of the center-left-type bloggers out there, but he recently put up two posts that rubbed me exactly the wrong way.
In the first one, he details all the ways in which George W. Bush didn’t possess magic “make Congress do what I want” powers. I think these bully pulpit arguments are somewhat absurd, as they rely on both sides arguing with caricatures of each other, but that’s not what interests me here. What interests me is that Yglesias gives us a list of major legislation that was either opposed by the GOP or supported in large part by the Democrats, but the list does not contain three of the most important pieces of legislation of Bush’s first term: the Iraq AUMF, the Homeland Security Act (establishing the Department of Homeland Security), and the PATRIOT Act. He even uses the “Mission Accomplished” picture, and then doesn’t bother to mention which mission was “accomplished”. Which is not to say that these things help or hurt his larger point, just that it’s a glaring omission.
In the second one, he dismisses the Clinton/Obama counterfactuals by talking about all the ways in which the Democratic primary didn’t focus on the issues that would come to dominate the policy agenda over Obama’s first term. Fair enough, as far as that goes. But it also elides the actual thing that divided liberals most about the Clinton/Obama matchup: foreign policy. Obama was the guy who ran on his foreign policy judgment, who bludgeoned Clinton over the head with Iraq. He was the guy who promised to close Gitmo. He then turned out to be the guy who expanded the war in Afghanistan, left Gitmo alone, and argued that the president has the authority to target US citizens for assassination.
All of this is by way of motivating the question in the title of this post. Matt Yglesias is not alone among his cohort in trying to stress all the ways Obama’s domestic policy agenda has been derailed by a belligerent Republican minority hell-bent on using every rule it can to stymie the process. He’s also not alone among his cohort in simply ignoring the fact that Obama isn’t really even trying to pursue a progressive foreign policy agenda. What gives?
We can try to ascribe various motives here. Maybe they’re just team players, emphasizing the ways in which Obama (and his party) are pursuing more liberal goals, deemphasizing the ways in which they aren’t. The important thing is not progressive policy per se, but the continued success of the Democratic Party. A slightly less evil-sounding version of this is that these folks, as the voices of institutional liberalism, see the Democrats as their best hope, and so there is no reason to hamstring the one party that is at least trying to fight for their values some of the time.
It’s also possible that there’s just a shortage of foreign policy minds on the left. These folks are more qualified to talk about domestic policy. Ezra Klein and Jonathan Cohn are health care policy people; why expect them to talk about foreign policy? You can make similar arguments for any number of people, but it does raise a further question: why is there a shortage? There are a million outlets for liberals to blog semi-prominently (ThinkProgress, Daily Kos, the Atlantic, HuffPo, and so on), and to my knowledge none of them feature prominent foreign policy-minded liberals. Glenn Greenwald, as in most discussions, appears to be the exception that proves the rule.
Or, of course, there’s the possibility that what you see is what you get. Maybe our generalist liberal bloggers don’t talk about Obama’s foreign policy heresies because they basically agree with him. But this leads us back to the same place: why aren’t there outlets for the ones who disagree? Sure, there’s Firedoglake, but their membership in the broader institutions of liberalism is not without some controversy.
Whatever the reason, the strangeness of this lacuna strikes me all the time. As you can probably guess from the beginning of this post, I am incapable of reading pretty much anything about the Obama presidency without inserting “…but what about foreign policy?” at the end. It’s a giant elephant in the room during any liberal discussion about his successes and failures, the GOP’s intransigence, the bully pulpit, or whatever inane micro-criticism will be the flavor of next week. In fact, try this at home: when the next intra-party fight is spurred by some column in the New York Times imploring Obama to do or not do X, try to figure out both why foreign policy blows the argument to pieces and why no one is bothering to talk about that fact.
It is the greatest source of my disappointment in the guy.
But I think you nail it pretty accurately when you attribute this sort of whistling past the graveyard to the fact that most democrats feel that the alternative to Obama in this fairly rigid two-party system is no alternative at all.Report
Obama staffer: “the Firebagger Lefty blogosphere.” I love it.
Of course, they’re bragging Obama want to take a knife to the defense budget, the ne plus ultra of fiscal responsibility for the ideological left.
Paul Krugman is a political rookie. At least he is when compared to President Obama. That’s why he unleashed a screed as soon as word came about the debt ceiling compromise between President Obama and Congressional leaders – to, you know, avert an economic 9/11. Joining the ideologue spheres’ pure, fanatic, indomitable hysteria, Krugman declares the deal a disaster – both political and economic – of course providing no evidence for the latter, which I find curious for this Nobel winning economist.
…
Now let’s get to the fun part: the triggers. The more than half-a-trillion in defense and security spending cut “trigger” for the Republicans will hardly earn a mention on the Firebagger Lefty blogosphere. Hell, it’s a trigger supposedly for the Republicans, and of course, there’s always It’sNotEnough-ism to cover it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/17/new-mexico-ofa-firebagger-lefty-blogosphere_n_929231.htmlReport
Who says liberals don’t care about foreign policy? Sure, you note a couple, but I think there are a few more than a couple liberals around….
– We need to follow through and get the hell out of Iraq;
– Ditto Afghanistan;
– Double-plus that one on Libya (trust me – lots of liberals I know had first-class conniption fits when we got into Libya)
– Gitmo? Close it, and charge the current residents in a real court. (That may not be directly “foreign policy”, but the situation was caused by a broken foreign policy so I’m including it.)Report
US gov’t needs to get out of Libya. let /b/ handle it, if they want the credit.Report
I think the point is that, while many of us know liberals like this, they are really underrepresented among our talking heads.Report
Correct me if I’m misremembering but didn’t Obama try to close gitmo and get cut off at the knees when the GOP started shrieking about moving the scary terrorists into an IL max security prison, the Democrat majority at the time ran away and then congress nixed the funding for the shutdown?
My own view on foreign policy is that Obama has been absolutely horrible on civil liberties/surveillance/assassination and that there is, specific to him, no excuse for it. There is the general CYA principle involved of course; if he doesn’t go for broke on these issues and some psycho manages to consummate an attack on the US his ass is grass/if he goes for broke and nothing happens then it costs him nothing. That’s more of an indictment of us all tho rather than a specific defense of Obama.
WRT the wars I feel a certain sympathy for him. Obama came into office with these issues in his lap and he’s been trying to navigate between a desire to wind them down and a desire to not paint his party as the cut and run party for another generation. Afghanistan remains a mire and I think he chose wrong when he went against Biden and decided to double down. On the Iraq front, OTOH I think he’s wound things down there about as well as anyone could hope for and I don’t see where the criticism comes from. We’re leaving after all.Report
I seem to recall a bit of a shell game going on with that. Gitmo would close… but a different Gitmo would open someplace that was not there in Cuba. We’d still be doing what we did, just somewhere else.
And Republicans responded as if it were the end of the world anyway.Report
This is correct. Obama was closing Gitmo for PR reasons, rather than out of any kind of larger principle. There may be a multitude of reasons good and bad for this — and his PR motivation ain’t peanuts — but it is what it is.Report
I think it also speaks to the gullible among us who actually thought that candidate Obama meant much of what he said. I remember candidate Obama. President Obama is no candidate Obama.Report
I was going to make a similar point about Obama trying to close Gitmo and running into trouble. Though I couldn’t quite remember if he had wanted to try one or two people in the states, or if he had actually tried to close down the whole shebang.
Your post makes me think about what would have happened with regard to civil liberties with McCain as President. I always had the feeling that Obama and McCain were not that far apart on these issues, so after becoming President Obama has had to tack to the right to help make the case that he is not a Anti-American Kenyan socialist bent on opening the US up to foreign invasion. This seems, to me, to be a political dynamic that McCain would not have had to deal with.
It is the same dynamic that you outlined, and which in part drives his need to stay longer in Afghanistan than he, or his base, would like. Our actions are judged relative to others perception of us, and when those perceptions are that democrats are weak on defense and national security the cure is worse than the disease.Report
“so after becoming President Obama has had to tack to the right to help make the case that he is not a Anti-American Kenyan socialist bent on opening the US up to foreign invasion. ”
He had to? Had to? Is there going to be a time where the President is considered his own man, rather than a windsock?Report
I agree with Blue Moon — this was a misreading of the public on Obama’s part. If he had praised Bush’s efforts to respond to 9/11 and acknowledged that tough calls had to be made, and we did attack in a way that sent a strong message, but now it’s time to bring the troops homes and build a great defense at home, most Americans would have silently gone along and secretly they would’ve said — thank goodness. American citizens just need a good way out without dissing the soldiers or making it all appear in vain — they are ready to leave the mideast for good.Report
The President’s putting party ahead of country, then, you admit?Report
How do you figure? Are you of the opinion that a abrupt and immediate termination of the US’s force commitment in the Middle East would be good for the country’s interests? Whether Obama’s putting the party ahead of the country is unclear since it’s entirely possible (considering his mushy middleness quite likely) that he considers his current slow movements the best option the country has. I can’t read his mind so I don’t know myself. How about you?Report
That is a charitable interpretation, North. The other more likely explanation (I only say this out of general observations of homo politicianus) is that the President’s mushy middleness is that way for a very cynical reason: mushy middleness gets re-elected. As alluded to elsewhere in the thread, sustaining the war(s) has no downside for the man, except from liberals, who are, as the OP points out, notably absent in their criticism.Report
Just parsing yr quote, Mr. North. I admit it was unfair as I figure you probably didn’t mean it. If he is doing the “wrong thing” to defend his party’s rep, I’d say that’s bad, wouldn’t you?
Let us assume he’s doing what he thinks is best for the nation, but as a milder objection, I think some of his arbitrary dates for withdrawal are ideologically driven, not pragmatic.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/dec2009/obam-d03.shtml
…and may be counterproductive.Report
I’d say so, unless he’s doing the wrong thing out of a menue of wrong things. If there’s no right option then I wouldn’t fault him for choosing the wrong that helps his party. You gotta admit, surely, that his predecessor left him mired in a lot of no win situations abroad yes?Report
Well, I’m not criticizing Obama from the left, and only mildly from the right.
You could say that about Ike and Korea, too. The Buck Stops Where?
The Big Chair, that’s where. Look, I’m easy on these guys, on the whole. I have nice things to say about Clinton and even Carter.
What’s getting forgotten lately in these grenade-tosses is that “the good war” is the one going badly, and the “war of choice” is winding down as best as could be expected. But it’s all getting stirred into an undifferentiated and frankly insipid soup called “war,” and war is icky.Report
I don’t disagree with any of that Tom, I’m just responding to the allegations that he’s putting party ahead of country. You went there if you recall.Report
I think elite liberal journos on the whole don’t talk foreign policy because 1. they see no alternatives and 2. they don’t want to look like hippies and 3. there’s a fatalism/cynicism in much of America’s political intelligentsia about the Empire that has sapped much motivation to talk about it one way or the other.
It’s a shame, though. I’ve been thinking for a while now that you can’t have progressive domestic policy take hold in a society defined along imperial/militaristic lines. If this is true, much of modern-day center-left work is willfully unambitious.Report
I think (2) is a good one that I forgot to include in the post above. There is some cultural militarism that crowds out the space for liberals to talk about foreign policy, but that is to some extent also the fault of liberals for not presenting an alternative. We are, as far as I can tell, at a historical peak for warmongering. Even during our “greatest” wars, there were large and significant antiwar contingents. I mean, can you even imagine a world in which the US president needs Japan to physically bomb our territory before dragging us into a war?Report
Yeah, I think whether or not the end of conscription has been a net-positive is debatable.Report
I really do not think that the positiveness of the end of government slavery is up for debate.Report
I’m inclined to agree.Report
Describing conscription as slavery is somewhat unhelpful.Report
I am at a loss as to how it is unhelpful. What exactly would be analogous to the government forcibly, under threat of arrest, sending young men to die against their will?Report
I’m not sure what would be properly analogous, but the thing that makes slavery slavery is the conversion of people into property. The military draft might be noxious for any number of reasons, but compelling people to serve in a war just is fundamentally different from buying and selling them.
Also, it may be worth noting that the penalty for a slave disobeying his master is not exactly jail.Report
The cases are more similar than they are different, regardless of the particulars. You say they are “fundamentally” different; I say that the fundamentals are virtually the same. If anything, the draft is worse because it turns free men into property designed to kill, rather than “be productive”. Mind, that statement is not a defense of either, but to say that the draft is not “converting people into property” is showing that you do not have a lot of experience with the military.Report
Forcing someone to fight in a war is to treat them as a slave. I don’t see anyway to deny this.Report
We can agree to disagree here, since I oppose the draft anyway, but you’re just obviously wrong. Mandatory service in your own country’s armed forces just isn’t slavery. It may be a violation of any number of rights or duties owed to citizens by the state, but the people involved are not turned into property and they cannot be bought or sold. I’m not sure why it’s so hard to comprehend that fact.
Austria, Brazil, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Israel, Norway, Russia, and Switzerland all have mandatory military service of some kind. Are they all slave states? Of course not. It might feel good rhetorically to change the meanings of words, but as I said it’s not helpful.Report
It does not turn them into property. They cannot be bought, sold, or exchanged. Such is the sine qua non of property.Report
Your argument is as follows:
1. Slavery = turning people into property
2. Property = Something that can be bought or sold
3. Conscription does not involve the buying or selling of people
4. Therefore, conscription is not slavery
The problem with your argument is that you are assuming much of it. First, limited alienability does not make something “not property” (e.g., leases). In other words, you are assuming a large part of the definition of “property” to bolster your argument. Secondly, slavery can be a different thing other than the alienability of people (I mean, if “forced labor” makes you happier, then by all means…). Finally, I do not know what it means that “[conscripts] cannot be bought, sold, or exchanged”. By paying a conscript, a government is at least compensating that conscript out of respect for the “inconvenience” of impoundment.
There is a lot more to unpack on “bought, sold, or exchanged”, such as the “lending” of Soldiers to government contractors, who subsequently make a huge profit off of the enterprise that the laborer (Soldier) does not see, for example, but it plain is not as cut-and-dried as you are making it out to be.
And my truly final point is that the end of conscription will be an unalloyed good, contra to Mr. Isquith’s original point.Report
the state of being under the control of another personReport
No, I hardly think transaction is the sine qua non. If someone took control of another person and forced them to work against their will, there is no transaction, but there is enslavement.Report
To answer your question about other countries, with respect to enslaving people to military service, they are states which enslave people to military service.Report
There’s also the whole factor that you can get out of “compulsory” military service.
You can’t really get out of slavery on your own recognizance.Report
If everyone could get out then it wouldn’t be compulsory, so you’re left with those who can’t get out are enslaved.Report
Conscription is a fascinating topic, but it’s not a denial of rights, it’s a duty of citizenship.
These days we cannot tell the difference between rights and duties: or rather, we do not recognize the duties much atall except taxes and of course the rich paying their fair share.Report
“In the course of [General Westmoreland’s] testimony, he made the statement that he did not want to command an army of mercenaries. I [Milton Friedman] stopped him and said, ‘General, would you rather command an army of slaves?’ He drew himself up and said, ‘I don’t like to hear our patriotic draftees referred to as slaves.’ I replied, ‘I don’t like to hear our patriotic volunteers referred to as mercenaries.’ But I went on to say, ‘If they are mercenaries, then I, sir, am a mercenary professor, and you, sir, are a mercenary general; we are served by mercenary physicians, we use a mercenary lawyer, and we get our meat from a mercenary butcher.’ That was the last that we heard from the general about mercenaries.”
– Milton and Rose Friedman, Two Lucky People, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1998, p. 380.
I don’t necessarily agree, though.
Conscription is not a denial of rights, it’s a duty of citizenship. But we speak only of rights these days, not duties, so Friedman’s argument stands up well enough on several levels. Donald Rumsfeld is often credited with instituting America’s non-conscript, professional, volunteer army based on his days at the University of Chicago and hearing Friedman.
[I’m told I’m not doing the unnecessary for the ungrateful by posting these factoids as I come across them in looking up the underlying facts of these debates. And backatcha, gentle reader.]Report
A duty? Says who?Report
Conscription is to slavery as taxation is to theft.Report
+1,000Report
Ha! And your point is that the left-hand side is “legal” and the right-hand side is not?Report
FULL POINT.Report
Big deal. Ryan gave me a thousand. I figure that’ll keep me on the leaderboard for a while, until the point inflation gets out of control.Report
Curses, blew the end tag…Report
A million people marched against the war, but there were giant puppets! (And let us not forget that anyone who spoke out against the war was labeled a traitor — remember the Dixie Chicks?) It seems natural that a lot of those people said “Screw it.”
Balloon Juice gets mentioned here from time to time. The front-pagers rail against Obama’s handling of foreign affiars all the time (ditto Obsidian Wings). I’m not sure where you’re looking that you don’t see criticism of Obama on the foreign policy front.
The lefty blogs are FAR more critical of Obama in general than is ceded by the right, especially considering how nasty the right was during the Bush presidency.
There I go, enabling the terrorists again!Report
I think the Hamas flags at the peace rallies got more play with my circle than the puppets did.Report
Every movement has too many Jane Fondas and not enough Joan Baezes (Joan was one of many on the left who castigated Fonda for her idiocy).Report
Criticizing Obama from the left is easy and safe; the context is always “Bush was worse, but…”
Most times they do the ritual explicitly so as not to get eaten by their fellow pirahnas.
The lefty blogs are FAR more critical of Obama in general than is ceded by the right, especially considering how nasty the right was during the Bush presidency.
Yes, but the Bushies were worse.Report
It helps that it’s usually true.Report
So we’re just supposed ignore 8 years of lies, insults and threats of bodily injury? We’re supposed to forget that the right was far more obsessed about the Clenis (long after he was out of office) than we could ever be about Bush?
Bush, and his supporters, were far, far worse then Obabots (or whatever we’re called today).
And you still haven’t acknowledged that whatever preface we may put before our comments, we hold “Barry” (how DARE he have an exotic name!) MUCH more accountable than we’re given credit for.Report
I love it when the rebuttals illustrate my point. Rock on.Report
I am not prepared to defend this in detail just yet, but I’m actually increasingly of the opposite opinion: that it is not possible to have an imperialistic superpower without progressive domestic policy.Report
You need to write this, Mr. T. That dog-legged right around my thought process and I need to see where it goes.Report
It is just a seedling at the moment. Time constraints are killing me these days.Report
Don’t let it totally fade away, in any event. Would be very interested in hearing you out.Report
Word.Report
+1Report
When you look at Samantha Power’s doctrine and the progressive influence it’s had, you are probably on to something. If what George Soros has said in the past has any bearing, then interventionism is necessary for the progressive agenda. Maurice Strong has played a huge role in globalism that sets the stage for global progressive intervention by some power or powers, whether it’s the US or a combination of Super States. At some point, to achieve the progressive goals, a lot of coercion will be necessary.Report
There is no empire (or “Empire”).Report
There are several things which seem wrong-headed about this post. But how much evidence can convince someone that the thesis is wrong? Picking a foreign policy issue like closing Gitmo and providing posts by liberal bloggers? Giving a list of liberal blogs which focus on foreign policy? Pointing out that Yglesias wrote a fucking book about foreign policy?
The only way to disprove the thesis that I can see is to provide a preponderance of evidence that liberal bloggers do, in fact, talk about this stuff. Which is impossible in a comment. But for the interested, I’ll at least give links to the stuff in the above paragraph:
Yglesias wrote 8 posts with the word “Gitmo”: http://thinkprogress.org/?s=gitmo&fqauthor=Matthew+Yglesias
Over 20+ posts on Gitmo on the widely-read liberal blog Lawyers, Guns & Money: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/?s=gitmo&x=0&y=0
Lots of Gitmo entries at everyone’s favorite liberal blog to hate, Balloon Juice: http://www.balloon-juice.com/?s=gitmo
List of liberal foreign policy blogs: Democracy Arsenal, Information Dissemination, Duck of Minerva. Progressive Realist is a liberal foreign policy post aggregator. Spencer Ackerman is all by himself, but surely no list of liberal foreign policy blogs is complete without him.
Finally, Yglesias’ book on foreign policy (which isn’t supposed to be very good): http://www.amazon.com/Heads-Sand-Republicans-Foreign-Democrats/dp/047008622XReport
This is a good contribution, for sure, although I think FDL is everyone’s favorite liberal blog to hate.
In any case, Yglesias did put up a post this morning in which he corrected for the fact that he didn’t mention Iraq in his GWB post. And his point there was basically “presidents can do whatever they want”, without recognizing what a massive problem that is for his thesis that Obama hasn’t been all that bad.Report
That’s something we all can agree on!Report
Well, foreign policy issues get talked about a lot when foreign policy issues are the dominant news of the day. Back in the heyday of the Iraq war, foreign policy was on everybody’s lips, left, right, and center. The 2004 election was largely about foreign policy because the economy was doing alright. But that’s the thing: The economy trumps all. In times like now, when debt crises and unemployment and stock market plunges are the news, it will seem like there’s a shortage of discussion on FP, whether that opinion be liberal or conservative. Of course Ezra and Jon Cohn are known for health care writing; that’s been a huge issue for the last year and a half.
So what FP issues would garner lots of attention today? You say Gitmo, the war in Afghanistan, and Anwar al-Awlaki. Yet, let’s be honest, no one new has gone to Gitmo in years (I think about 150 people are there); while Afghanistan still gets a good deal of press coverage (like Obama’s speech calling for a draw down and the recent copter incident), fighting has never been as intense as the height of Iraq, much less Vietnam/WW2; al-Awlaki is a very small story that would only gain traction amongst people who follow FP issues closely. These issues don’t represent a giant elephant in the room for Obama because, to the voting populace, these issues fall far second to economic woes. Even Libya, which was the talk of the town for a good bit, pales in comparison to the holy “jobs” discussion because it is much more of a European concern than an American one. If the economy recovers miraculously and Afghanistan/Libya are the only news topics, I guarantee all the members of the liberal punditry will acquire a new found interest in FP.Report
“Why Don’t Liberals Care About Foreign Policy?”
Because Americans don’t care about Foreign Policy. This poll is from Nov 2010: http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/deficit_ignore.PNG (the header is “Total Republicans Democrats Independents”). Once the perception (and some of the reality) that Americans weren’t dying in wars any more, War being the #1 most important thing that Congress Must Act On Now went from 45% to 2%.
I dunno, maybe a McCain presidency would have at least made people care about War some more.Report
There are three main “Liberal” versions of foreign policy.
The first consists of basically leaving everyone else alone for the most part, which is not at all different than the Ron Paul right wing version of foreign policy. (and collectively, a swath of the general population that is completely undercounted and ignored by both elites and the media. the left that is in this camp should really try to reach out more to their rightish compatriots, even if the right wing version is motivated by ‘the wogs begin at Calais’ (Maine))
The second consists of ‘using more diplomacy’. This is generally empty headed muddled thinking (which Yglesias alternately dips into and swims out of) because there’s no such thing as ‘international law’* and ‘more diplomacy’ ain’t going to break through the ranks of Al Shabab to feed starving Somalians.
The third is ok with ‘the full range of US Power’ but think the neocons are trigger happy assholes that have a completely wrong view of the world and can’t plan well enough to get laid in a whorehouse. Which is a correct assessment of the neocons. And this is the faction in power now. And Obama always campaigned that he would be in this faction.
*oh sure, people call the body of treaties and customs ‘international law’ and occasionally a third worlder that loses a war will go before an international tribune, but the international order is a rational anarchy. And always has been. And until we get Moon and other colonies always should be.Report