It’s The Economy, Stupid, But That Depends on Your Definition of “Economy”

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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89 Responses

  1. CJColucci
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    says:

    But vibes are also a reality, and with economics and politics inevitably intertwined, anyone who doesn’t respect the feelings of the populace — whatever the numbers and stats say — isn’t going to like the reception they get.

    Are you under the impression that the people who focus on reality rather than perception don’t know this? Nobody likes to be told that they are wrong about the facts of their own lives, but it is often and notoriously so. But given a few more months of good news, perceptions may approach more closely to reality.Report

  2. Michael Siegel
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    says:

    I think it’s more that people’s actions and words have diverged. Normally, economic outlook tracks indicators. When unemployment is down, wages are up, etc., people tend to say the economy is good. This is the first time I’ve seen all the indicators be good but people still insisting the economy is bad. And moreover, spending is up and saving is down, which is usually what people do when they’re optimistic about the economy, not pessimistic. The whole thing is just odd.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Michael Siegel
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      says:

      Individuals in an economy don’t have perfect information. They respond to microeconomic changes based on their experiences. If they lived their lives, or most of their lives, from 1981 to 2021, then they had minimal experience with inflation. Back then, an extra $20 in the paycheck was worth $20. But they’ve just been through a stretch where an extra $20 was worth -$300. Today, if they see an extra $20, they’re not going to expect the same value out of it than they would have 5 years ago. Their expectations are rational in that, without perfect information, they’re basing their expectations on experience.

      What people live through affects their economic perceptions. “Vibes” and “economics” aren’t exclusive categories.Report

  3. Philip H
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    says:

    Sometimes I am going to talk down to those folks, and I have no intention of apologizing for it.

    Lets take Gas prices – nationally they are down and their decline across regions has been somewhat remarkable. Yet the vibes folks are NOT heralding these declines the way they ballyhooed increases. Nor are they willing to admit that they didn’t decry gas price increases under TFG – who as we might recall had a high point of $2.96 a gallon in 2018 (and it was $2.39 on the day he left office). Now, it is true that in June of last year (2022) they hit $4.97; but it is also true that have been declining since then and currently sit at $3.26. Sure that’s above Trump, but not nearly as horrible as people think, especially given all we and the world have been through since March 2020.

    My point is the vibes folks are not actually paying attention, and looking for excuses to blame anyone they can for economic failings they do not control. A president is always a good target, but considering the number of corporate boards and CEO’s that who are happily admitting they have kept prices up artificially to gain profits (which Robert Reich has called “Greedflation) the Vibes folks are aiming at the wrong target.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H
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      says:

      People who buy into Robert Reich’s conspiracy theories aren’t really in a position to talk down to anyone. Did gas prices come down because of Generosideflation?Report

      • Philip H in reply to Brandon Berg
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        says:

        Funny how the public statements of corporate CEO’s that Sec. Reich quotes are considered conspiracy theory fodder. I mean, I guess the Walmart CEO could be lying about price inflation and why they are keeping prices high even as other things like gas prices come down.Report

        • Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H
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          says:

          I don’t read Reich’s nonsense unless someone puts it in front of me, so I have no idea what you’re talking about. If you point me in the direction of whatever he said that you think vindicates him, I can explain why it doesn’t.Report

  4. Jaybird
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    says:

    Sean Trende had a thread about this that got him mocked pretty hard.

    The body of the main thread went something like this:

    I’ve been saying this over and over again, but: This is why inflation is so destructive to presidencies. With unemployment, overwhelming # of people are still employed, lots of unemployed expect to get hired back, etc. When you get your job, it’s largely done.

    Inflation is different. People at all income levels notice it, whether it’s the $10 happy meal or the $150 Outback delivery or [whatever good someone really rich buys and notices, I don’t know].

    You notice it when you think about moving, and realize the interest rate on the loan you could get is like 3x what you’re paying. If you have credit card debt or floating debt, your interest on that explodes.

    And the thing is, when inflation is over, it isn’t over. The prices stay elevated, which sucks until folks’ expectations settle in. Yeah, maybe you’re getting raises, and maybe you’re even mathematically getting ahead, but most people are not homo economicus, and will say things like “the raise is nice, but it’s mostly going to pay my grocery bill.” And not only that, but it compounds. If your base price is $10 and you get 100% inflation (to keep the math simple) and the inflation rate falls to 50%, prices go up another $10. Inflation just really, really sucks, it affects far more people than unemployment typically does, and it’s going to take longer for the effects to unwind than with other economically meaningful indicators.

    This, of course, turned into a discussion of the $150 Outback delivery (lobster tails were involved).

    Megan McArdle chimed in and talked about buying some bread and salad and the fixings for making chicken soup from scratch (she is seriously watching her sodium) and spent $50 on it. This resulted in tons of people explaining that she was doing it wrong. Wil Stancil asked her to post her receipt.

    My take is that food in general is a lot more expensive and I have switched from eating out pretty regularly to only eating out as a treat and doing stuff like making my spaghetti sauce at home. So I figured out how much my spaghetti sauce costs.

    I’m using one of the local Safeways. The big one, not the small one.

    Three boxes of Pomi Chopped Tomatoes @ 4.79 == 14.37
    Two and a half pounds of 90% ground beef @ 6.99 == 17.48
    A couple of bell peppers @ 1.59 == 3.18
    Some chopped garlic @ 2.99 == 2.99
    Some pesto @ 3.99 == 3.99
    A couple of cans of tomato paste @ 1.49 == 2.98
    Fresh thyme == 1.67
    Fresh oregano == 1.67
    Fresh basil == 2.49

    Add that up and get $50.82.

    A couple of boxes of Rotini are $4 and so are a couple of boxes of Spaghetti noodles. Almost $60.

    For a *FULL* crock pot of sauce and enough noodles to choke a horse (and you’ll have some garlic and some pesto left over, maybe).

    But $50 feels like a lot for a crock pot meal. Even if the crock pot is full.

    “Use cheaper meat! Use cheaper tomatoes! Use cheaper pasta!”
    “So by using ingredients that aren’t as good as the ones I prefer, I could spend less at the grocery store?”
    “OBVIOUSLY!”
    “Yeah. Obviously.”Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      Well… the real mistake you’re making is that you should substitute 1lb 90% lean beef with nice fatty ground pork.

      But yes, inflation is (mostly) forever… wages drive inflation, but they simultaneously lag inflation… so you never catch-up to inflation until inflation is mostly over… then you get back to where you were. So the ride sucks, but the silver lining is that all of your long-term fixed rate loans are both cheaper to pay and the underlying asset is worth more.

      Those whom the late-70’s inflation run did not kill were made stronger. Millennials in 20 yrs will be clogging Boca on their bloated asset sales. GenX? We had the pleasure of living through austerity.Report

    • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      Having lived through it once, I don’t have a lot of interest in “We’re going to kill inflation dead, this year. Mortgage interest rates start at 14%.”Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      I have no idea how to link/embed to Federal Reserve graphs, but real median household income in Pennsylvania was $80,390 in 2019 and $72,210 in 2022. That’s household income failing to keep up with rising prices. That’s a lot of people poorer because their incomes have fallen relative to prices.

      Since this is a political post, I pointed to a potential swing state, and could also point to Michigan, Arizona and Wisconsin as well.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to PD Shaw
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        says:

        https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSPAA672N

        It’s important to note here that household income data for 2019 were collected in 2020, and the Census Bureau claimed at the time that some portion of the huge year-over-year increase (3 percentage points was their estimate at the time) was an artifact of problems with data collection in 2020.

        That said, the rest of the decline in median household income is kind of a mystery, because median earnings didn’t decline, and the labor force participation rate is only down about half a percentage point. And in Pennsylvania, CPI-adjusted median household income is actually down relative to 2015, which is certainly not the case nationally.Report

        • PD Shaw in reply to Brandon Berg
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          says:

          Thanks for the link, a picture is worth more numbers than I can jot down here.

          I assumed that adjustments were made relative to that data collection issue, but I don’t know. If you throw out 2019, CPI-adjusted median house income still declined in Pennsylvania from 2020 to 2023, from 2021 to 2023 and from 2022 to 2023. Same for Michigan, Arizona and Wisconsin, but not as pronounced. Georgia declined from 2020 to 2021, but increased from 2021 to 2022.Report

    • KenB in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      On this one, I think there are reasonable points in both directions. On the one hand, food prices are obviously higher than they were a couple years ago – if Megan just said “hey this thing that used to result in a $40 grocery bill is now $50,” then there wouldn’t be much basis to argue.

      But on the other hand, the impact of Megan’s tweet is relying on a baseline expectation that doesn’t apply to most people, who are not foodies who live in a big city and shop just where it’s convenient to get to on foot. A “crockpot of chicken soup” would not have been $40 for most people a few years ago and wouldn’t be $50 now. So I do understand the reaction — it hits like the “I’m making $250K/year and living paycheck to paycheck!” tweets.Report

      • InMD in reply to KenB
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        says:

        Even when the twitterati are onto something it tends to come through such an odd, heavily class colored lens as to seem out of touch and ridiculous.

        That said I do think the idea that this whole thing is totally mitigated for working classes by full employment to be kind of ridiculous. My family is doing just fine but we get our groceries from one of the regular regional chains, nowhere fancy, and buy variations of the same stuff every week. We put them on the family credit card we pay off every month that allows us to track expenses, so it’s really easy to look back at what we were paying before inflation took off. The change is really extraordinary and I can’t imagine people in more precarious circumstances aren’t feeling the bite.Report

        • KenB in reply to InMD
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          says:

          Right — everyone who shops regularly will notice the price increases regardless of whether their paycheck makes up for it and whether they regularly buy on the low, middle, or high end;
          and plenty of people have not in fact seen their pay rise at the same rate as inflation over this period.

          Also it’s nice that inflation has gone back down to normal levels, but telling people they should be happy about that is a little like saying “sure we were repeatedly jabbing you in the ribs with a stick the last couple of years, but we stopped now so why are you still complaining about your bruises??”Report

        • John Puccio in reply to InMD
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          says:

          The problem is purchasing power. Most people recognize it costs a lot more to sustain their standard of living (assuming they can sustain it) than it did before inflation took off.

          Meanwhile The Fed issued this yesterday. It’s all in our imagination apparently:

          Real wages have risen since before the pandemic across the income distribution. In particular, middle-income and lower-income households have seen their real earnings rise especially fast. And in the past 12 months, real wages overall have grown faster than they did in the pre-pandemic expansion.

          Household purchasing power has increased as a result. In 2023, the median American worker can afford the same goods and services as they did in 2019, plus an additional $1,000 to spend or save—because median earnings rose faster than prices.

          The U.S. economy now has over 2 million more jobs than pre-pandemic forecasters expected. Therefore, more and more workers are benefitting from increased purchasing power, thanks to the strong and resilient labor market.[1]

          This pattern of rising purchasing power is particularly American: other advanced economies have generally seen lower, and in many cases negative, real wage growth.

          https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-purchasing-power-of-american-households#:~:text=Household%20purchasing%20power%20has%20increased,earnings%20rose%20faster%20than%20prices.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to John Puccio
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            says:

            But….but…but…my $1.99 bag of Cornnuts costs $2.29 now.Report

          • InMD in reply to John Puccio
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            says:

            I think this is a situation where both sides are right. It seems well established that the US has navigated the post covid economic shocks better than any other major economy. Things are worse in any other country you might want to live in and plenty you wouldn’t, and the long term outlook for us seems about as good as could reasonably be hoped.

            At the same time saying that to someone being pinched by cost of basic necessities and childcare and whatever else that has gone through the roof makes you sound like a complete asshole.Report

            • John Puccio in reply to InMD
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              says:

              I don’t know what kind of economic statistical gymnastics were done by the Treasury (sorry not the Fed, as I cited earlier) to conclude that purchasing power in the US is actually stronger than it was in 2019, so I am going to hold off on saying they are “right”.

              These are the same people that insisted Inflation was transitory when it was quite obvious to everyone else that it wasn’t.Report

              • InMD in reply to John Puccio
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                says:

                I meant more on the larger question of the state of the economy, not the statement from the Treasury.

                Based purely on anecdote I agree that the specific assertion about purchasing power seems wrong but it isn’t my area of expertise. Even if it is true it clearly isn’t the whole story about what a significant number of people are experiencing.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to InMD
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          says:

          We do the same thing with our credit cards, and I’m a home finance accounting nerd from back when I was a kid helping my dad with our small business books. I was doing payroll at 14, by hand, looking up withholding on charts, calculating Union dues, and balancing the totals on a punch crank adding machine, in the snow, both ways. Anyhow…

          Pulled the reports from 2019 and 2023 — I’m not fool enough to say how much we spend on groceries because we spend a lot!

          2019: 8 souls, 2 teenage boys under 20.
          2023: 5 souls, no teenage boys.

          We spent 5% more in 2023 than we did in 2019…Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine
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            says:

            I just got back from the grocery store. Pop was on sale. Buy two cases, get two cases free. I picked up 4 cases of Diet Cherry Pepsi. $8.99 twice but, after everything, a case of pop is $4.49 on sale.

            When Maribou and I got married, you could get two cases of pop for $4 on sale. And the music was better.Report

          • InMD in reply to Marchmaine
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            says:

            I’m not surprised. We are in the credit card game for the rewards more than the accounting. Or at least I am. I went to law school because numbers scare me and my wife protects me from them. It’s similar to how I protect her from abominations beyond her strength like centipedes and routine vehicle maintenance.

            From my eye I would guess-timate we are paying 15-20% more for the same old stuff.Report

  5. Marchmaine
    Ignored
    says:

    I also think we’re living through an ‘economic model’ change such that old indicators aren’t the right metrics for anticipating what the 99% consider ‘good’.

    I posted this a week or two ago, and increasingly think that the ‘Fissured’ economy has decent explanatory power of why many macro metrics can look good, but we’re not even getting the gold old Ford Trickle Down benefits.

    https://www.liberalpatriot.com/p/what-should-be-the-goal-of-us-industrial

    “The fissured economy generated early returns, but its costs and contradictions have grown increasingly burdensome. Unlike the virtuous cycle of Fordism—in which high investment drives high wages which drive strong demand—the sequestration of corporate profits away from the most labor- and capital-intensive pieces of corporate value chains breeds financialization, stagnation, and heightened inequality. Despite ideological pretentions of fiscal rectitude, the neoliberal model relies upon debt to sustain consumption—whether private household borrowing, as in the run-up to the financial crisis, or large government budget and trade deficits, which have prevailed for most of the neoliberal period—exacerbating household precarity and systemic financial instability.”Report

  6. Jesse
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    says:

    I mean, what’s happening when you see people complaining about McDonald’s costing more is workers have the power to get higher wages, leading to higher costs, and the median American absolutely despises the idea of service workers actually making good wages.

    The other part of this is, the people who are loudest online (ie. UMC college-educated people) are the loudest about this because they are a group that might’ve actually lost out in the past few years, but also, those people are connected to the media so we get 9,000 stories about how the economy is bad, all as you can get a job at McDonald’s making $17/hr.

    Yes, there are stlll people hurting, but those people will always exist under capitalism. But, the vast, vast, vast amount of complaining is not coming from people living on the edge.Report

  7. Chip Daniels
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    says:

    We always hear this, that “it’s the economy, stupid” which is the famous line from the Clinton camp in the 90s.

    Is it really true, though?

    Jamelle Bouie wrote something the other day which has stuck with me. He said that conservatives and liberals have different visions of what government should be all about.
    Liberals see the government as being for the purpose of improving the well-being of the citizens, while conservatives see government as being for the maintenance of the social order.

    This tracks with what I observe about how the different camps react to the economy.

    Remember when Trump’s tariffs caused a lot of economic pain in dairy states, and liberals (including me) were talking about how this was sure to cause his support to crumble? And how that never happened?
    And we see this in long term trends, where people in red states have worse economic prospects than blue states but it doesn’t affect their voting patterns.

    This produces a ratchet effect where economic factors only turn in the conservative direction.

    Whether the economy improves or gets worse, conservatives don’t care, but liberal constituencies do. And even liberal people tend to only notice the economy when it is bad. If the price of eggs drops 10% nobody cares, but if it rises 10% they do, and when someone gets a better job they assumes its due to their own hard work but if they get laid off its the fault of the guy in the White House.Report

    • KenB in reply to Chip Daniels
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      says:

      I don’t think it’s coherent anymore (if it ever was) to talk about trends regarding “conservatives” while roping in the entire Republican party for your examples. Which “conservatives” do you have in mind with these observations — social conservatives, economic/libertarian conservatives, or Trump supporters (who as a group are not particularly conservative at all, much to the chagrin of actual conservatives)?Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB
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        says:

        Trumpists are the only conservatives that matter.

        The others are irrelevant, like Libertarians or Greens.Report

        • KenB in reply to Chip Daniels
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          says:

          Ok – then let’s acknowledge that we’re talking mainly about a bunch of populists caught up in a cult of personality, not people with any kind of consistent political philosophy. For trend analysis, no looking back before 2016. Calling them conservative is just misleading – I dont care on a personal level, I’m just saying it’s like talking about what “Democrats” believe and wrapping in trends from before the race realignment.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB
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            says:

            Trumpists do in fact have a consistent political philosophy which is authoritarianism, where society is segregated into classes and groups and all the organs of society- government, the bureaucracy, business, churches, academia- are all bent towards the purpose of maintaining the social hierarchy.

            So every issue is filtered through the lens of whether it supports or undermines the hierarchy.

            An example would be how Trumpists generally support corporate interests over labor, except when a corporation such as Disney violates the expected social order, then it becomes a “villain” and must be attacked until it is bent to conform.Report

      • Philip H in reply to KenB
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        says:

        Since the Trump conservatives (who are actually quite socially conservative) outvote the rest by healthy margins, why should we care about those shrinking minorities within a minority?Report

        • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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          says:

          What does it mean to say that the “Trump conservatives” are socially conservative? I don’t know if the Trump primary voter is particularly socially conservative; certainly he attracts a lot of people who aren’t.Report

          • North in reply to Pinky
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            says:

            Evangelicals and frequent church attenders are, now generally, very vociferous Trump supporters. Hard to get much more socially conservative than that.Report

            • Pinky in reply to North
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              says:

              In 2020, yes. I’d wager that they’re now DeSantis’s core though. I’ve been looking around for polling but I can’t find any, and to be honest I’m not sure I’d trust it. Trump’s strongest support is probably among the least conservative within the GOP, and tends to be more national conservative than socially or fiscally. Whether any of that translates into “Trump conservatives” being socially conservative, I don’t know.Report

              • North in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                I recall a recent article from a right wing commentator talking about how Trumps support used to be inversely correlated to the church attendance of his supporter but that, in recent years, that correlation has flipped. It stands out because they were quite unhappy about it. But my brief googling and hunting about the archives of the normal right wingers I read isn’t dredging it up.Report

              • KenB in reply to North
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                says:

                I don’t have a source either but I’ve seen similar content. David French has written (bitterly, frustratedly) about how American Evangelicalism has hitched its wagon to Trump.

                However, that still doesn’t mean that Trumpism is defined by social conservatism, just that social conservatives have adapted themselves to him. It’s hard to see what he could say or do that would make them leave him (apart from maybe him saying he’s become a Democrat). He channels populist rage and frustration against a largely secular liberal elite ruling class, but that can coexist with multiple even contradictory social/political viewpoints.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB
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                says:

                He channels populist rage and frustration against a largely secular liberal elite ruling class

                That’s the point, exactly.

                Trumpists, whether they are religious or secular, economically liberal or conservative, are entirely bound to him by a shared resentment and grievance against their fellow Americans.

                In this formulation, “ruling class” means ‘a class which has the support of a majority of Americans and leaves me in a minority position and I am angry about it”.Report

              • KenB in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                OK, i guess here’s where we hit the agree-to-disagree point — I see the connection you’re making, but to me that seems too high-level and tenuous to draw the cross-population conclusions in your earlier comment. But I don’t have a sense of how I would argue the point further.Report

              • InMD in reply to KenB
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                says:

                Whether it is deliberately calculated or not is hard to say but I chock if up to Trump just being better at the basic blocking and tackling of coalition building than he gets credit for. He’s a demagogue but not just a demagogue.Report

              • KenB in reply to InMD
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                says:

                Trump spotted (or intuited) the under-served market and figured out the pitch to make the sale to them. It’s pretty impressive, in a horrible way. Often hard to tell when he’s leading the crowd vs when he’s just figuring out where they’re heading and getting himself out in front.Report

              • pillsy in reply to KenB
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                says:

                However, that still doesn’t mean that Trumpism is defined by social conservatism, just that social conservatives have adapted themselves to him.

                I think social conservatives are probably the chunk of the conservative movement most prone to catastrophizing or, you know, literally apocalyptic rhetoric. Early on, Trump and his acolytes focused on those sorts of appeals (his “I alone” speech at the RNC in 2016, “The Flight 93 Election”, etc.), and it seems to have worked on the SoCons.

                On top of that, while I wouldn’t necessarily say Trump is defined by social conservatism, he really delivered for social conservatives, probably more so than any other constituency. Maybe he doesn’t have much VORRP there, but being in the right place to make Dobbs happen is going to be worth a lot.Report

              • KenB in reply to pillsy
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                says:

                I’m just saying that Trump is attractive to many who are not social conservatives, so I would be cautious about generalizing across Trump supporters in a way that takes that for granted.

                When my wife started her job at a school in a working class town here in Connecticut a couple decades ago, she found herself largely among Democrats, but some of what her colleagues talked about didn’t sound like the SoCal democrats that we had left behind — yes they were largely pro-union, pro-govt spending, pro-choice; but also anti-immigration, anti-affirmative action, etc. A lot of these folks ended up becoming Trump supporters.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB
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                says:

                That’s just a revealed preference.

                Yes they are pro-choice, but immigration is their preference.

                So from a political standpoint they are lumped in with the anti-choice crowd because that’s what’s driving the bus.Report

              • Pinky in reply to North
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                says:

                I think the inverse correlation was the case 8 years ago, and by 4 years ago it had flipped. I don’t know if it’s the case today.Report

              • North in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                Well it is possible, maybe, that the Church cons are Desantis supporters now but after Trump picks his teeth with the Fl Governors big white boots I am confident those Church cons will return to Trump, if they’re not there already.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                says:

                I’m guessing (and this is just a guess) that Church cons see Trump as a “Cyrus” figure.

                Those that are familiar with Cyrus will be, more or less, impervious to accusations of “hypocrisy”.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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            says:

            Trump’s supporters want to cram the LGBTQ+ community back into the closet, take away women’s body autonomy, reassert political and economic hierarchies that place white men on top, and vacate the right of people of color to do anything free of harassment.Report

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