Shake Shack, Suspect Specie, and Sane Stewardship of the State

Burt Likko

Pseudonymous Portlander. Pursuer of happiness. Bon vivant. Homebrewer. Atheist. Recovering Republican. Recovering Catholic. Recovering divorcé. Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of Ordinary Times. Relapsed Lawyer, admitted to practice law (under his real name) in California and Oregon. There's a Twitter account at @burtlikko, but not used for posting on the general feed anymore. House Likko's Words: Scite Verum. Colite Iusticia. Vivere Con Gaudium.

Related Post Roulette

85 Responses

  1. Chip Daniels
    Ignored
    says:

    This is all just another data point of the Republicans being an insurrectionist faction, refusing to accept their fellow citizens as equals.

    DeSantis with Disney in Florida, Texas stripping local jurisdiction, conservatives trying to destroy Budweiser- the message is always the same- Dare to tolerate those we hate and we will use any means to destroy you.Report

  2. DavidTC
    Ignored
    says:

    #MintTheCoin has another downside: it’d be illegal. It ignores the fact that the Fed, not the Treasury, controls the money supply; further, it ignores that 31 U.S.C. § 5112(k) is one part of an Act of Congress authorizing the Treasury to mint a limited amount of “commemorative” coins as a profit-making numismatic enterprise, and thus isn’t intended to create “legal tender for all debts” the way true currency is supposed to be.

    Except that that is all nonsense.

    It may not be ‘intended’ to create legal tender(see below), but it DOES. It flatly does. Commemorative coins clearly are legal tender. I am sitting here looking at a United States Eisenhower Centennial Silver dollar, which came in a clear plastic case and a nice green holder and was a high school graduation gift. It has 0.77344 ounces of silver in it and it’s currently worth, in this mint condition with a certificate of authenticity, about $35 dollars. And it has, very clearly printed on it, One Dollar, and as far as I am aware, _I can use it as legal tender_. It would be stupid, and I’d have to get it out of the sealed plastic, but I could.

    In fact, the Mint itself is pretty damn certain it’s legal tender: “Although these coins are legal tender, they are not minted for general circulation. ” – https://www.usmint.gov/learn/coin-and-medal-programs/commemorative-coins

    And, on top of that, there’s absolutely no evidence that Congress didn’t intend for these to be legal tender…indeed, it would be incredibly odd for Congress to _denominate them_ in legal tender if they were not intended to be…the law explicitly talks about commemorative silver _dollars_ denominated as ‘One Dollar’, and what _exactly_ do we think they mean by the word ‘dollar’ if not a measure of an amount of money?

    Congress did not say ‘We shall tell the Mint to make things that look nice but are not technically legal currency’, Congress said ‘We shall tell the Mint to produce very expensive and collectable legal currency that people probably aren’t going to use very much as currency’.

    As the entire basis of that Justia’s article is that these coins somehow aren’t ‘intended to be legal tender’, that entire objection sorta falls apart.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC
      Ignored
      says:

      Actually, the claim in the article is the even less supported ‘And because the coins are commemorative and valid only when sold to the public, the Federal Reserve is prohibited by law from accepting them on deposit to prevent the government’s checks from bouncing.’ claim, which is not only is not true, but I literally can’t figure out why they think that.

      The Treasure is instructed _to_ sell commemorate coins it mints to the public at the cost of minting the coin instead of the valuation of the coin, but that isn’t what makes them legal tender, but…that weirdly doesn’t even apply to the platinum coin, just gold and silver ones.

      Incidentally, the law explicitly says, which I just noticed: 5132(a)(1)(h) The coins issued under this title shall be legal tender as provided in section 5103 of this title.

      The platinum coin, notable in the same fricking subsection! 5132(a)(1)(k) The Secretary may mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins in accordance with such specifications, designs, varieties, quantities, denominations, and inscriptions as the Secretary, in the Secretary’s discretion, may prescribe from time to time.

      There’s actually nothing about how to issue them, no directions to sell them for certain values or anything! Unlike both gold and silver coins which have pretty detailed laws.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to DavidTC
        Ignored
        says:

        Do you also think I’m wrong about #MintTheCoin leading to hyperinflation by way of rapid M1 expansion?Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to Burt Likko
          Ignored
          says:

          The next trillion dollars worth of bonds sold are not going to be purchased with dollars where the holder said, “Think I’ll buy Treasuries instead of consumer goods.” Or at least, if they are, the first thing the Fed will have to deal with is a nasty recession, and possibly a bout of deflation.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Burt Likko
          Ignored
          says:

          Do you also think I’m wrong about #MintTheCoin leading to hyperinflation by way of rapid M1 expansion?

          M1 is the amount of physical money _in circulation_. I’m pretty sure that while the coin would, in some legal sense, be ‘in circulation’, it wouldn’t be in circulation in any practical sense. No one can actually _use_ the coin except for depositing it with the Federal Reserve. The outcome of minting the coin is that a number is moved from one account to another at the Fed and now they have a coin they have to keep in a vault somewhere. It doesn’t increase any money that any person or institution has beside that, and hence cannot cause inflation.

          Now, could the Fed respond with their new extra-trillion dollar in their bank account by…doing something stupid? Like having banks lend out more money. Yeah, but they can do stupid stuff all the time, and there doesn’t seem to be any obvious reason this would cause that.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
            Ignored
            says:

            I kinda see the coin is something like “bull$#!+ handwaving that avoids the deeper issue”.

            If there’s going to be a problem, it’s that my take on that might be shared by someone with actual authority/power or the like.Report

          • Burt Likko in reply to DavidTC
            Ignored
            says:

            Gonna quibble with your definition of M1 because you omit liquid deposits in banking institutions. If you’re just looking at currency, and omitting deposits altogether, what you’ve got is M0 and that’s a far smaller number than M1. As for the reserve ratio to which you refer, the Fed already reduced it to zero, more than three years ago, and it seems content to leave it there (presumably, not enough banks have failed from overextension yet to raise the Governors’ concern).

            But we aren’t talking about the Fed here. The Fed doesn’t resolve the government’s debts, it doesn’t collect taxes, it doesn’t redistribute the government’s money at the pleasure of Congress. That’s the job of the Treasury.

            You’re very probably correct that the only two parties anywhere that could use a $1,000,000,000,000 coin would be the U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve. Plenty of private businesses already refuse most cash transactions (try to buy a beer on an airplane with currency, for instance, and I bet you’ll stay thirsty). Query, then, if calling a physical object “legal tender” has the significance either of us attribute to it.Report

            • Koz in reply to Burt Likko
              Ignored
              says:

              Gonna quibble with your definition of M1 because you omit liquid deposits in banking institutions. If you’re just looking at currency, and omitting deposits altogether, what you’ve got is M0 and that’s a far smaller number than M1.

              Between the comments and the OP, Burt’s written a lot here. And without directly addressing any one particular point, it’s important to note that Burt is right at the meta level about one important thing.

              There is no unilateral action by the Executive Branch which resolves the problem without one or more of, causing substantial adverse disruption of the markets, including Treasury auctions. Or directly causing economic disruption. Or (and this has for the most part been ignored), not being able to generate enough revenue to fund the government operations on a stable basis.

              Eg, things like a premium bond or the trillion dollar coin are actually not bad ideas, _if_ it’s a matter of keeping the trains from derailing while Biden and Kevin McCarthy hammer out something for the long term. The problem for libs is, even if such things “work”, they don’t work for long and for that reason they don’t mitigate the GOP’s leverage with the debt limit.

              A lot of libs have, in their own minds, believed that such things are questionably legal, so if the comeuppance comes, it will have to be from the Supreme Court. Eg, Biden invokes the 14th Amendment, and unless and until SCOTUS says he can’t everything is kosher.

              But that’s not true. The Supreme Court is only one of several parties who could throw monkey wrench in the libs plans, and probably not the most important ones.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Burt Likko
              Ignored
              says:

              You’re very probably correct that the only two parties anywhere that could use a $1,000,000,000,000 coin would be the U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve.

              While that’s true, the actual real reason that no one could use the trillion dollar coin is that either the Treasury or the Fed has possession of it, and aren’t going to spend it.

              Query, then, if calling a physical object “legal tender” has the significance either of us attribute to it.

              Only in the sense doing all this appears to be legal, in opposition to the extremely weird legal analysis that seemed to think commemorative coins aren’t legal tender (Which they explicitly are), or somehow aren’t legal tender until sold.(1)

              1) Which in addition to that interpretation being completely unsupported by law, how on earth is that supposed to work? How are we supposed to know if any coin we use as tender has been ‘sold to the public’ or not, and thus is legal? Hell, how can _the Mint_ tell…coins do not have serial numbers!Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                Also, again, while the ‘sold the public’ has absolutely no backing I can see, there actually is an incredibly obvious way around that hypothetical objection: Create a non-profit, have the Fed loan it a trillion dollars to buy the coin, have it buy the coin with that money, have it repay that loan to the Fed _with_ the coin. Tada!

                Like, this is so inherently stupid an objection that the fact such a concept doesn’t exist in the law makes you miss that even if it did, it’s no objection at all. The premise is literally that The Mint mints a trillion dollar coin _and then sells it_ to the Fed. Pretty sure they can figure out a way to sell it to ‘the public’ for a second before it ends up in the hands of The Fed. (This is assuming the Fed itself somehow doesn’t count under whatever law they’ve hallucinated applies.)Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to Burt Likko
              Ignored
              says:

              “Query, then, if calling a physical object “legal tender” has the significance either of us attribute to it.”

              It depends on whether the flag in the courtroom has a gold fringe and whether your or not your birth certificate has the words “Panama Canal Zone” on it.Report

          • Pinky in reply to DavidTC
            Ignored
            says:

            It seems to me that inflation is a measure of confidence in a currency. Minting that coin would devalue the currency by announcing that we don’t intend to support it or pay our debts. That’s bound to have inflationary effects.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Pinky
              Ignored
              says:

              …you think doing something to make it _so_ we can pay out debts is announcing that we don’t intend to pay our debts?

              There’s exactly one political party announcing we’re not going to pay our debts, and they’ve announced it so hard and repeatedly that we had our credit rating downgraded int he past. And it’s not the Democrats.

              If Biden is forced into this, it will indeed look back for our willingness to pay our debts, but that’s because, uh, Republicans are not willing to pay our debts and tried to blow up the economy.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                “…you think doing something to make it _so_ we can pay out debts is announcing that we don’t intend to pay our debts?”

                There’s paying the debts using wealth, and there’s paying the debts using a piece of paper with “THIS IS WORTH ONE MILLION BILLION US DOLLARS SIGNED JANET YELLEN” written on it.

                You’re really gonna tell me those aren’t different?Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                That’s…not even vaguely how the plan works. Like, you know that, right? The plan is to mint the coin, sell it to the Fed for a trillion dollars, thus have a trillion dollars they can give to the people they owe money to.

                Everyone who has debts from the US government would be paid exactly as before.Report

              • Pinky in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                Would there be any bigger consequences if we minted a $4 trillion coin?Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                Yeah! I mean, this completely not serious guy wants us to only gin up one trillion! We’ll blow through that in a week!Report

              • Pinky in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                I choose to spend an evening intimately with a gentleman in exchange for rock cocaine. It is a one-time event. Afterwards, I will analyze the choices that have led me here, and make any necessary reforms.Report

  3. North
    Ignored
    says:

    Chait comments in observing the odd behavior of the media on this subject.
    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/05/debt-ceiling-congress-blame-republicans-democrats-default-new-york-times.html

    My own personal take is that the assorted elite “masters of the universe” set don’t love the risk of what the GOP is doing but would love to get some outcomes out of it that they’d like- to wit some kind of deficit reduction that isn’t paired with revenue increases. The main stream media is heavily influenced by these kinds of fishers and it’s leaning hard to BSDI this issue to the nines. You can also see the same thinking in all the business groups who’re studiously effecting neutrality and are urging a “compromise” with the the GOP on this hostage taking. The short sightedness is infuriating.

    If the debt ceiling isn’t a deal law walking now, it’ll soon be if the so called “moderates” keep pushing it this way. It’s survived this long by being something both sides could jaw about but that wasn’t a concrete threat. If it becomes a periodic republican extortion mechanism, as it rapidly is becoming, then the next time the Dems have the trifecta it’ll be gone, and rightly so. It only survived the last cycle by the skin of two Senators teeth and neither of them are long for the Senate. That is, assuming, that Biden doesn’t call their bluff and blow through it.Report

    • Pinky in reply to North
      Ignored
      says:

      Ahh, Jonathan Chait. I wonder what his latest column is about? Heh.Report

    • InMD in reply to North
      Ignored
      says:

      Chait is right, and it’s lazy ‘view from nowhere’ journalism to portray the Democrats as having any sort of culpability in this.Report

      • North in reply to InMD
        Ignored
        says:

        That or a subtle elite libertarian sentiment masquerading as high minded non-partisan analysis. Probably both depending on the talking head in question.Report

      • Koz in reply to InMD
        Ignored
        says:

        Chait and you are both wrong. Demos have all the culpability for this.

        You gotta play the ball where it lies. At some level, it’s reasonable to think that a golf course with a debt ceiling on it is a stupid course. But that’s not important right now, more importantly it’s not anything in your capacity to change. So pull a club out of your bag and figure something out.Report

        • North in reply to Koz
          Ignored
          says:

          I agree, in this case the correct play is refuse to pay a ransom and then when the markets finally begin to panic force through the discharge petition or, if that doesn’t work, continue issuing debt and take it to court so this matter is resolved for good. Paying the ransom is ludicrous and will only guarantee future ransom demands. Trying to bargain on the debt ceiling was one of Obama’s worst decisions as president even if he came at it from a high minded position.Report

          • Koz in reply to North
            Ignored
            says:

            I agree, in this case the correct play is refuse to pay a ransom and then when the markets finally begin to panic force through the discharge petition or, if that doesn’t work, continue issuing debt and take it to court so this matter is resolved for good.

            Heh, as if.

            When and if the panic does set in, I can tell you it’s not going to be the GOP’s who back down.

            Push comes to shove, I’d still say it’s more likely than not that we’ll have a deal. But that’s by no means a certainty. If you and the people who and the people in Washington who in some ways are positioned “like” you who in a week or two still think the same way as you do now, we _are_ going over Niagara Falls. I am convinced of that.

            In terms of a clean or clean-ish debt limit passing the House, it’s not just that McCarthy doesn’t favor that. There’s not one solitary vote in the GOP caucus in favor that. Moreover, there isn’t even the prospect of one GOP vote in favor of that anywhere across the distant horizon.

            No, Demos and Joe Biden are going to cave to get out of this jam.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Koz
              Ignored
              says:

              Of course the GOP won’t back down – because they have convinced themselves it won’t hurt them economically or politically. They don’t think a collapse will cause China to ascend further. They don’t think they retirement accounts will be wiped out. They don’t think any of their businesses will close.

              They also don’t care that all these things will descimate their base, alienating them even more.Report

              • Koz in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                Of course the GOP won’t back down – because they have convinced themselves it won’t hurt them economically or politically.

                No, not at all. GOP knows perfectly well the possibilities for many adverse outcomes, if the debt ceiling isn’t raised.

                And in that world that’s where they (and me for that matter) have decided to try to hold its line.

                If you really really want to try us, we’re here.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                So burn it all down to get our way. How patriotic of you.

                How about your side admit the Two Santa clauses approach set us up for this? How about you all take credit for ballooning the debt with tax cuts? How about you all queue up honestly about wanting to trash social security and Medicare in favor of the military spending.

                Or just keep expecting Democrats to save yourself from your own craven desires. One of these days – perhaps now – we won’t anymore.Report

            • North in reply to Koz
              Ignored
              says:

              True, it’s potentially going to be grueling and knowing what we know now it’s clear that it’ll be a tough fight because the purported non-partisan elements are going to be pushing hard to try and force Biden to back down and give in to the GOP’s over the top ransom demands. I think Biden honestly thought the business interests and “non-partisan” agents would acknowledge which side is precipitating this crisis and help convince the GOP their demands wouldn’t fly but that clearly was a miscalculation on his part. The real question is if Biden doesn’t blink when the business interests will do so and yank the leash on their pet centrist GOP congresscritters to pass a clean debt limit increase, the discharge petition would only need 5 votes to move it along.Report

              • Koz in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                The real question is if Biden doesn’t blink when the business interests will do so and yank the leash on their pet centrist GOP congresscritters to pass a clean debt limit increase, the discharge petition would only need 5 votes to move it along.

                A discharge petition is the solution to a different problem. A discharge petition is a for a situation where you have a presumably bipartisan working majority in the House for this or that that does not include the Leadership. Then, if the stars line up right, you can use a discharge petition to get a bill out of committee and onto the floor and presumably from there to a final vote.

                Here, there is no working majority for anything the Demos want, or anything remotely close to it. The members are solid behind the Leadership.

                From your pov, it’s better and easier to just assume that discharge petitions don’t exist. The fact that they do exist doesn’t change anything in any meaningful way.

                If Biden doesn’t blink, we are going over Niagara Falls.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                so your side believes this is important enough to hand China economic victory?Report

              • Koz in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                so your side believes this is important enough to hand China economic victory?

                If there is economic turmoil as a consequence of the debt limit issue, and if as a consequence of the economic turmoil that China can opportunistically advance its interest to the detriment of ours, then we have yet another example of foreign policy incompetence from the Biden Administration.

                And if I’m guessing right, Kevin McCarthy is probably telling President Biden this to his face as I write.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Not if McCarthy wants to ever actually govern again.Report

              • North in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                As if our Kevin ever had delusions of governing.Report

              • Philip H in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                Kevin may not have delusions of governing, but the GOP does. And IF they manage to retake the WH and the Senate, they they would have to clean up whatever messes they make on the way there. Their handlers will demand no less.

                A default mess, unfortunately, won’t be easy to clean up.

                And while the T-bills China holds might indeed tank as a result of a default, China will then be in a place to claim honestly that such a thing would never happen in their sphere and so non-aligned nations need to keep flocking to them. It might hit them economically, but they might well come out ahead in foreign policy. And it would be another thing a Republican run nation wouldn’t easily be able to overcome.Report

              • North in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                I doubt China would much enjoy this kind of mess any more than any other major holder of T-bills does.Report

              • North in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Based on your analysis I’d say Biden’s only realistic option is to not blink. The GOP ain’t offering him any other option but to pull the trigger now. Anything he gives them will just get pocketed and then they’ll come back to extort him again.

                The discharge petition is useless, currently, agreed. But it sits there offering a ready and prompt offramp the moment that five republican congresscritters get spooked by what their wingers (And Kevin who’s on those wingers leashes) are getting them into.

                But at the moment it does appear to be a case of chicken. I just don’t see any plausible reason why BIden and the Dems should blink first. If Biden wins, this nonsense will be done with and if the GOP wants to play at being deficit hawks they can do so where deficit hawkery belongs- in the budget (which, I note, they haven’t passed anything on). If the GOP wins then we’ll be back at this same mess the next time the debt ceiling approaches.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                This is exactly it. If Biden gives in, he’s done for politically.

                If he doesn’t, and R’s really are willing to hold the line, then what the hell does he care? The guy’s nearly 80 years old.Report

              • Koz in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                Based on your analysis I’d say Biden’s only realistic option is to not blink. The GOP ain’t offering him any other option but to pull the trigger now. Anything he gives them will just get pocketed and then they’ll come back to extort him again.

                No, it will probably be work requirements for social insurance programs, discretionary spending caps and changes to IRS policy. That’s what Biden and McCarthy are talking about now.

                It’ll hurt the libs, but nothing they can’t realistically give on.

                The discharge petition is useless, currently, agreed. But it sits there offering a ready and prompt offramp the moment that five republican congresscritters get spooked by what their wingers (And Kevin who’s on those wingers leashes) are getting them into.

                It’s not, though, that’s just it. By far the best and quickest way to a deal as an agreement between President Biden and Speaker McCarthy (That’s another point Liam Donovan has been harping on btw).

                If somehow you had five Republicans and 213 Democrats all signed on to a discharge petition, then this plan goes from the impossible to theoretically possible. (AFAIK there aren’t 213 Demo signatures on any discharge petition btw). But even allowing for that, that’s only the beginning of umpteen rounds of legislative japery.

                The GOP asks are far more doable, especially once they’ve been boiled down to something like what I wrote earlier. Which btw, is as good a guess as any as to where it ends up.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Work requirements on social insurance already exist, and have since … checks notes … 1996 or so. So there’s no reason for Democrats to give in to that.

                Discretionary spending caps technically exist – and would be easier to think of as an actual demand if the House had done its job and passed a budget resolution already for this year – which is the first step in an appropriations process. And given the GOP’s willingness to crash the Sequester, I don’t see any reason to take that on good faith either.

                As to “IRS policy” – they only major change made recently is the IRS finally being able to staff up and go after rich tax cheats. I get why some GOp donors might not like that, but again, its not something the Democrats can really give away since its a done deal and it generate revenue in excess of cost, which no GOP tax cut has done in over 40 years.

                Got any other vaporware we can laugh at?Report

              • Koz in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                Philip,

                The more insignificant or more inconsequential you want to characterize the Republican asks as being, the easier it is for President Biden to give them.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                They aren’t being serious. TANF work requirements? Already the law of the land. There’s nothing Biden can give them there. So its not an actual ask.

                And please, discretionary spending caps are useless. Biden knows this, so why give something useless to people negotiating in bad faith?

                And the IRS? That would be akin to Obama vetoing the ACA. Not gonna happen.

                There’s no serious ask here to negotiate against.Report

              • North in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Well the IRS policy one is especially laughable since it -increases- the deficit rather than decreasing it.

                As for the discharge petition, sure the GOP could try and hold it up in the Senate but if they get to the point of breaking ranks it’s unlikely that cocaine Mitch would hold it up. They answer to their money men after all.

                But I see little way that Biden can reach a deal. Heck, McCarthy has no proven ability to pass any compromise and, so far, all their asks have been ludicrously deranged.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                Heck, McCarthy has no proven ability to pass any compromise and, so far, all their asks have been ludicrously deranged.

                I mean, this is the important point. McCarthy literally cannot provide any of this stuff. Why should anyone negotiate like he can?Report

              • North in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                Biden started off not doing so, and then all the talking heads dragooned him into it because it was either talk to Kevin even though he can’t deliver or not talk at all.Report

    • Koz in reply to North
      Ignored
      says:

      My own personal take is that the assorted elite “masters of the universe” set don’t love the risk of what the GOP is doing but would love to get some outcomes out of it that they’d like- to wit some kind of deficit reduction that isn’t paired with revenue increases.

      I think you’re understating things by quite a bit. One of the key developments over the last say, 4 to 6 weeks is that Wall Street, the nonpartisan deficit hawks, the Chamber of Commerce, etc, are perfectly fine with getting together with the Republicans in the House and putting Biden over a barrel to extract some budget cuts and policy changes in return for lifting the debt ceiling.

      If it becomes a periodic republican extortion mechanism, as it rapidly is becoming, then the next time the Dems have the trifecta it’ll be gone, and rightly so.

      There will never be another Demo trifecta again in our lifetimes, with one major caveat.

      If Trump wins the nomination, then Demos are going to win everything remotely plausible and a few things that aren’t. In 2024 and probably a couple cycles after that. Eg, recently I think Sean Trende has tweeted that Sen Ted Cruz and the GOP Presidential ticket in Texas are at least small underdogs, and there’s been some people pearl clutching over that.

      But if Trump is the nominee, I don’t think that’s the least bit outlandish. (if he is not the nominee, that’s ridiculous.)Report

      • North in reply to Koz
        Ignored
        says:

        Koz, my buddy, you’ve been assuring me the Dems are doomed and will never be elected again since, what, before Obama’s landslide? And then, in your second breath, you add that if Trump is nominated (which seems a not at all unlikely proposition at this point) then the Dems will win it all. Frankly that’s a shocking climb down from you.

        I agree that a lot of ostensibly non-partisan business and media figures are showing their cards with their behavior on this matter and that, going forward, anyone who believes them to be non-partisan should correct their thinking on the matter and recognize them as merely disguised fiscal republicans and treat them accordingly.Report

        • Koz in reply to North
          Ignored
          says:

          Koz, my buddy, you’ve been assuring me the Dems are doomed and will never be elected again since, what, before Obama’s landslide? And then, in your second breath, you add that if Trump is nominated (which seems a not at all unlikely proposition at this point) then the Dems will win it all. Frankly that’s a shocking climb down from you.

          Yeah, I’ve changed my mind on quite a few things, that’s one.

          I agree that a lot of ostensibly non-partisan business and media figures are showing their cards with their behavior on this matter and that, going forward, anyone who believes them to be non-partisan should correct their thinking on the matter and recognize them as merely disguised fiscal republicans and treat them accordingly.

          That’s just not gonna fly, because they really are nonpartisan.

          But as far as this goes, they’re with us and if the pressure continues to escalate, it’s more likely to fall on you than us.Report

          • North in reply to Koz
            Ignored
            says:

            Nonpartisan how? If they ignore GOP spending when the GOP is in power and then help back up these nutty ransom demands when the GOP is out of power how does that differentiate them from a standard GOP talking head?Report

            • Koz in reply to North
              Ignored
              says:

              The Demos (and others) vaguely thought there was too much federal government spending under the Trump Administration. But they never really tried to fight any of it. They had other priorities, and there wasn’t anything in particular they wanted to cut for fiscal reasons.

              The deficit hawks didn’t have anything to latch onto, and were basically out in the cold. That’s not the case here obv.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                The deficit hawks only get hawkish when they think they can cut social programs or the regulatory state.

                Change my mind.Report

              • North in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                I agree it is an old strategy of theirs. Republicans only try to cut spending when they think they can force a Democratic administration to do it for them. But by that understanding that defines said talking heads and groups as partisan republitarians. So they should be treated as such.Report

              • Koz in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                This is stupid. The Committe for a Responsible Federal Budget, and people like them, are advocacy groups.

                If the members of the opposition party of the legislature aren’t fighting over spending levels, it’s not like they’re going to have more leverage working with anybody else.Report

              • North in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                If they’re only going to care about the deficit when the GOP is out of power, which has been their behavior to date, then they should be treated as partisan actors by all involved.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to Koz
            Ignored
            says:

            Yeah, I’ve changed my mind on quite a few things, that’s one.

            Making a claim about what will happen in the future and something else happening is not called ‘changing your mind’, it’s called ‘being wrong’.Report

  4. Koz
    Ignored
    says:

    There’s obviously a lot of words here, and by the grace of God I might comment on them at least at some modicum of depth. But for now, let’s note that the reason that the reason we’re having this particular problem at the moment is that liberals are bad people.Report

    • Koz in reply to Koz
      Ignored
      says:

      Specifically, Joe Biden has known since whenever this was going to come up, and for months he’s been fronting us, “We’re too cool to negotiate with Republicans, gotta go eat ice cream.”

      Well guess what, he’s not that cool after all. He’s not, the libs are not, the Demos are not, and in all likelihood the President and the Democrats in Congress are going to have to pay a lot more to get out of this jam than they would if they were good faith actors back in January/February or some other reasonable time.Report

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to Koz
        Ignored
        says:

        Conversely, how do you negotiate with someone who points a gun at his head and says, “Stop, or I’ll shoot.”?Report

        • Koz in reply to Slade the Leveller
          Ignored
          says:

          Very easily. Pay him what he wants. And reading the tea leaves, it doesn’t look like the ransom is that much.

          (Frankly, this part of the whole drama is the silliest imo.)Report

          • Slade the Leveller in reply to Koz
            Ignored
            says:

            That’s like the parent who buys the kid a candy bar in the checkout aisle to get him to shut up. Both people learn a lesson, but one really regrets it.Report

            • Koz in reply to Slade the Leveller
              Ignored
              says:

              Libs think it’s like that, but in reality it’s not. In the real world, the debt ceiling is a real thing. It creates a real veto point, and GOP is exploiting that veto point to win real concessions.

              The sooner we all get on the same page for this, the happier we’ll all be.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                That candy bar is pretty real, too.Report

              • Koz in reply to Slade the Leveller
                Ignored
                says:

                Yeah, but no.

                The debt ceiling is real. What’s fake is the idea that Mommy can grab the candy bar out of the kid’s hand and put it back if she’s willing to listen to the kid cry in the car on the way home.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                So they want to veto spending and tax cuts they previously supported. That’s . . . interesting.Report

              • North in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                So, Koz, would you say the Dems missed an opportunity when they raised the debt ceiling for multiple republican Presidents without extorting concessions? Or is this yet another area where it’s only okay when Republicans are doing it?Report

              • Koz in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                So, Koz, would you say the Dems missed an opportunity when they raised the debt ceiling for multiple republican Presidents without extorting concessions?

                They didn’t, see Liam Donovan about that in general.

                twitter.com/LPDonovan/status/1654532789448867842

                But frankly whether they did or didn’t doesn’t change where the Demos are now.Report

              • North in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Oh tosh, they weren’t demanding that Trump pass huge tax increases or other unpopular reversals of the tiny number of Trumps accomplishments in office.

                Donovan is trying to obfuscate by observing that occasionally the limit got other things lumped in with it but the Dems have never threatened to blow up the debt limit if they didn’t get things the GOP was absolutely opposed to giving. There’s no left wing equivalent of the hostage taking the GOP has been doing.Report

              • Philip H in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                To Wit:

                Part of the problem is that Republicans spent months effectively demanding that Democrats pay the GOP a ransom, while failing to fill out their ransom note. It wasn’t until late April — less than a month ago — when House Republicans passed a right-wing bill, and bipartisan talks began soon after.

                But again, it’s the premise that’s bizarre. It’s as if a group of hostage takers were to argue, “We called to arrange a meeting in which you could tell us about the ransom you’ll pay, and you let the phone ring too many times, so really it’s your fault if we hurt the hostages we took.”

                This need not be complicated: Republicans created this crisis. They’re threatening to impose a catastrophe on us if their demands aren’t met. Democrats, in contrast, have never engaged in these tactics, and they’ve pleaded with GOP leaders to take default off the table — pleas that Republicans have rejected.

                https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/weak-case-blaming-dems-gops-debt-ceiling-crisis-rcna85822Report

              • Koz in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                Oh tosh, they weren’t demanding that Trump pass huge tax increases or other unpopular reversals of the tiny number of Trumps accomplishments in office.

                The Republicans aren’t either, except for the fact that Biden played his cards the particular way that got us to here.

                If Biden had been picking off stray Republicans here or there since December or January or whatever, things would be a lot better for him now.

                Instead, the President has been fronting us for six months, so the House GOP passed the LSGA. And among the provisions of the LSGA is the repeal of the IRA, the last gasp of the Covid stiumulus and all the money that they armtwisted Joe Manchin to sign off on.

                Even now, it’s very unlikely that IRA will be repealed as part of the debt limit increase, but the only reason it ever got into play in the first place was because the Demos put it there.Report

              • North in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Umm, like you said, the GOP didn’t even have a list of demands (not even as vague and vacuous as the LSGA is) until they, barely, passed one last month so Biden did the only thing he could do which was state his position that the GOP should raise the debt ceiling for him, just as the Dems raised the debt ceiling for Trump and W before him.

                And, certainly, there were no republican congresscritters to “pick off” earlier.Report

              • Koz in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                ……, barely, passed one last month so Biden did the only thing he could do which was ……

                Of course it wasn’t the only thing Biden could do, that’s the whole point.

                There was nothing preventing BIden from talking to Republicans, individually or in groups, to figure out what it would take to get some of them to raise the debt limit.

                But the libnasties on Twitter said, “Clean lift or nothing!” and talked Biden into that. And so here we are.

                The upshot of this is, Biden is (and the Demos) are going to have to sign off on work requirements for TANF and the like. And nobody is going to believe them when and if they say they can’t.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                A central component of the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) program is its emphasis on work. Adult TANF recipients, with some exceptions, must participate in work activities as a condition of receiving cash benefits. This brief discusses the federal work requirements and state strategies for meeting them.

                https://www.acf.hhs.gov/opre/report/tanf-work-requirements-and-state-strategies-fulfill-them

                There’s no there there Koz.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                Are you familiar with TANF work requirements? I’m not, so I just started looking into them, and apparently states are responsible for achieving an all-families work participation rate of 50%, but that includes something called caseload reduction credits, which look to run about…50%. I know nothing about this field so I could be reading things wrong, but it looks like the US rate is actually 18.8%.

                https://www.acf.hhs.gov/ofa/data/work-participation-rates-fiscal-year-2021Report

              • North in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                If you think Biden and his minions weren’t back chanelling every GOP congresscritter on this matter from the get go you must not have been paying attention. That’s how they got the chips act through to the surprise of everyone. They probably still are, but I expect the markets are going to need to freak out and the wealthy powers behind the GOP are gonna need to get spooked before any of them GOP congresscritters break ranks.Report

              • Philip H in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                You have to remember dear North that Koz doesn’t believe Democrats or liberals are Real Americans, and so we must be kicked constantly. He’s also dealing the with cognitive dissonance of the near shellacking of the GOP in last year’s election and the fact that Trump is likely the nominee for next year even though he’ll be on trial in Manhattan.

                Makes analysis tough.Report

              • Koz in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                If you think Biden and his minions weren’t back chanelling every GOP congresscritter on this matter from the get go you must not have been paying attention.

                They weren’t, that’s exactly what I’m telling you.

                Read the dispatches from the NYT, WaPo or the like if you don’t believe me.

                That’s how they got the chips act through……

                If Biden and the White House handled the debt ceiling the same way they handled the Chips Act, specifically as it pertains to relations with Congress and Congressional Republicans, we’d be in a much much different place now.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                If McCarthy and the GOP handled the debt ceiling the same way they handled the Chips Act, specifically as it pertains to relations with the White House and Congressional Democrats, we’d be in a much much different place now.

                Fixed it for ya.Report

              • Koz in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                I expect the markets are going to need to freak out and the wealthy powers behind the GOP are gonna need to get spooked before any of them GOP congresscritters break ranks.

                Oh, and as far as breaking ranks goes, I’d be looking at your side before ours.

                You think when Janet Yellen figures out that work requirements and spending caps are the holdup to a debt limit deal, you think she’s
                going to be like “Yep, I’m gonna get started building that coin right away Mr President.”

                No, she’s gonna say, “Take the deal, Mr President, while it’s there and before I go on television to tell you again to take the deal.”Report

              • North in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                There’s a lot more GOP congresscritters with very complicated interests involved than there are actors on the Democratic side. I’m certainly very dubious that it’d be Yellen.
                And, I note with interest, that you’re only mentioning a tiny amount of the demands the GOP has made on raising the debt ceiling.Report

              • Koz in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m certainly very dubious that it’d be Yellen.

                O rly? You hear any Executive Branch people who sound like DavidTC on this thread? I don’t. All that stuff comes from Twitter and the comment section of the League.

                They know perfectly well enough that whatever is on offer from the Republicans is miles better than the 14th Amendment or the trillion dollar coin or some other brainstorm. Push comes to shove you think they’re supposed to shut up because they have to stay tight with President Biden, and he has to stay tight with Mehdi Hasan?

                It could be, but maybe not. It’s at least as likely they’ll think the whole thing is a teachable moment where they get to square away some libs as to a fact or two in the real world.

                And, even if you are right, it probably wouldn’t make any difference. GOP has enough leverage to make their play as it is.Report

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *