Both Sides Of The Horseshoe Are Dead Wrong About Banning Pornography

Andrew Fleischman

I work on behalf of the wrongfully or unfairly convicted. Partner at Sessions & Fleischman. On Twitter and Post.

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22 Responses

  1. Barney Quick says:

    Your argument is cogent, but its gaping hole – namely, that it’s not predicted on the principle that people ought not to use each other for sensual pleasure devoid of respect and commitment – needs addressing. But then again, we’re now such a post-Judeo-Christian society, a society completely devoid of absolutes, that that may be unlikely.Report

    • baconman in reply to Barney Quick says:

      That’s a very Kantian perspective — the problem is that even the most Judeo-Christian societies frequently ignored that edict, and even if there was punishment for it, that punishment was almost exclusively directed against women. As a matter of public policy, I just don’t think it could be equitably and justly implemented.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to Barney Quick says:

      The idea that we are post judeo christian is crazy pants in every way. For one we weren’t exactly loving the “judeo” part until the last few years. It was always the “christian” part that has been emphasized for the past few hundred years or so.Report

    • Adam in reply to Barney Quick says:

      you said “gaping hole”. heh hehReport

    • Andrew Santos Fleischman in reply to Barney Quick says:

      My friend I respect your position but there are no circumstances where I’d use the phrase “gaping hole” when talking about porn.Report

  2. Chip Daniels says:

    The advent of online pornography has revealed some surprising things. Until now, it was just assumed that people’s sex lives needed some sort of outside controls, or at the very least, pornography needed some sort of boundary around it at the very least to keep it away from impressionable young people.

    But…surprisingly, even when allowed complete unfettered access to hard core pornography 24/7, most people- including teenagers!- govern their sex lives responsibly.

    Young people court each other and form relationships and families not much different than they always have.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Like everything else, there are power laws.* Many Americans do not drink. Many others just drink every now and then. The alcohol industry derives most of its profits from heavy drinkers though. A smallish part of the population that just buys a lot of alcohol and drinks a lot.

      People probably watch more pornography than they let on but most people do not talk about in public because most people are not creeps.** But there are probably a small part of users who are heavy pornography addicts and it would not surprise me if many in this group come from more conservative religions or cultures where the amount of acceptable watching pornographic viewing is zero.

      *I do think there are some problems with how the United States seems to define alcoholic addiction. I was just listening to a CLE on the issue and apparently a sign of a problem is drinking alone and/or drinking every night. I have been drinking a beer or glass or wine (sometimes 2) every night with dinner for years even if I am eating alone. I drink a lot less than many people I know.

      **That being said, the How to Do It column on slate makes me wonder how much of the population has barely contained IDs.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        On the other blog, a poster once wrote that without the really have drinkers, the multiple drinks in a day crowd, the alcohol industry would go into a tailspin despite moderate drinkers outnumbering them by tens of millions. And yes, the US definition of problem drinkers is really stringent and comes from America’s Protestant heritage influencing public health thinking. Many public health experts probably take in ideal world, humans wouldn’t drink or even eat unhealthy foods or eat in excess ever. That isn’t happening.

        The How Do It columns, I’m still not sure how much of that is real and how much is just trying to troll because the reader knows that they will get a response. Sex life isn’t exactly evenly distributed and some people have the inclination and ability to get a really wild sex life and others might lack one or other or both.Report

  3. LeeEsq says:

    People will always battle over what forms of commercial sex should be legal and what should be illegal. I can see why pornography makes people uneasy from a variety of perspectives but a ban will be totally unenforceable unless you want to go really authoritarian. I think for the Left, the problem with pornography is that anything that is aimed at the cis-gender, heterosexual male audience sexually comes across as being demeaning and objectifying women, since it reduces them to only existing to satisfy male desire, and this doesn’t sit right. There isn’t a real way to ban this type of porn but not other types though.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq says:

      I think it is universal to be ambivalent about our own biology.
      While we strive for nobility of purpose and transcendence, we are often rudely reminded that we have darker impulses to be selfish and callously indifferent to others well being.

      Porn and horror tales explore this territory but at a safe remove allowing us to remain safely detached.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Horror is something that I have strong feelings against. I find it to be a disgusting genre that generally takes pleasure in sadism and the pain of others, especially the horror movies that go for really gruesome violence. Action movies might be brutally violent but they usually don’t celebrate the sheer sadism of the villain like horror movies do.Report

  4. Saul Degraw says:

    I haven’t seen the left discuss banning pornography for a while. The Dworkin branch is pretty much a minority now. Where the center-left seems more split is a on whether sex work where there is actual sexual activity between the worker and client is involved.*

    *There is at least a growing but still small voice for the decriminalization/legalization of sex work formally known as prostitution. Politely called being an escort.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      The Left doesn’t call for banning porn but I think a decent portion doesn’t really like porn or any sort of fan service aimed at cis-gender heterosexual men for objectifying women. Even works that are aimed more at romance and relationships than sex itself come across as bad when the main target audience is heterosexual men because the entire dopey but decent guy with a beautiful woman trope is loathed by many. It is seen as encouraging nice guyism.

      Sex work in the form of commercial sex services is something I’m wary of legalizing because it gives traffickers an arena to easier work in. My understanding is that the Netherlands has a big problem with human traffickers using it as a place to do their evil work because legal prostitution provides a sort of shelter for them.Report

  5. CJColucci says:

    The trouble with porn is that it passes on misinformation. Young men who take jobs delivering pizza or cleaning swimming pools are often disappointed to find out that the fringe benefits are not what they thought. And no, your father’s new trophy wife is not interested in having sex with you.Report

  6. Greg In Ak says:

    Unless i’ve missed something the only big or new push on limiting porn is by Republican’s in Louisiana. That might be important to mention while busy both-siding this.

    In other news i’ve heard very few Free Speech Warriors freaking about the LA law. Hear plenty about silly word usage and things the gov isn’t doing, but not much about this. Funny that.Report

  7. Jaybird says:

    One of the biggest problems with making trade-offs is that you’re having to weigh “P, but Q” against “X, but Y” and there are a lot of very good reasons to see Q as bad and a lot of very good reasons to see Y as bad.

    But people who think that Q is worse than Y can regularly run into the accusation “Oh, so you’re saying that Y isn’t bad?” when they argue, for example, that Prohibition of Alcohol has a lot of unintended consequences. “I don’t think that we should be banning alcohol like this. It’s creating crime.” “So you’re saying that you approve of domestic violence?!?”

    The social sanction against pornography resulted in a lot of pornography being produced and distributed by somewhat toxic people who were victimizing a lot of young women.

    Advancements in technology and reductions in stigma have resulted in content creators being able to create and distribute their own stuff, kinda, without having to work with abusive/toxic people, kinda. (Though the #1 creator on the #1 such site recently took to social media and gave a cry for help about her husband threatening her and forcing her to do stuff she wasn’t comfortable with so it’s nowhere *NEAR* able to get rid of the whole toxicity thing.)

    The question always seems to come down to “What problem are we trying to solve?”

    So… what problem are we trying to solve?Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Jaybird says:

      Some industries are always going to attract toxic and semi-criminal to full criminal people. Porn is one of those industries. I’m still opposed to making it illegal but even when legal and more or less socially acceptable, it doesn’t exactly attract people of outstanding or even normal behavior.Report

      • Per A.J. Andersson in reply to LeeEsq says:

        “doesn’t exactly”? How many of the interviews at “Holly Randall Unfiltered” have you studied? I find a lot of those people quite “normal”, depending on your take on that word.Report