Yes, That’s an Abortion: The Importance of Clarity and Statutory Precision

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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37 Responses

  1. Dark Matter says:

    …crucial that legislators are careful with their words.

    It’s in the legistators’ best interest to be vague.

    When people get killed from their law, they want to be able to claim it wasn’t the law’s fault and others made mistakes. When they talk to their supporters, they want to be able to claim it stops all abortions.

    That’s in addition to outright ignorance and an ideology that claims there’s never a good reason to have an abortion.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Yep, better to let the courts sort it out, then blame the activist judges.Report

      • When I was a state legislative staffer, one of the themes the staff constantly pounded on in fiscal notes and legal analysis of proposed legislation was, “If you write the law precisely, there’s a better chance that the courts will agree that you’ve written what you think you’ve written. If you write the law vaguely, the courts may decide on an entirely different meaning than what you think you’ve written.”Report

  2. Pinky says:

    Your ectopic pregnancy surgery link is two years old. I notice that even that article is presented to confuse the reader. The headline is “Ohio bill orders doctors to ‘reimplant ectopic pregnancy’ or face ‘abortion murder’ charges” and it shows a picture of a governor signing a law. You have to read on to discover that the bill was only introduced, and the picture shows the governor signing something different. An article from the Cincinnati Enquirer from last week says that ectopic pregnancies are exempt from Ohio’s current law, so I’m guessing that original bill went nowhere.

    Does anyone know of any state laws on the books that would interfere with ectopic pregnancy surgery?Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

      Attempted legislation, now honestly, what is that?! Do they hand out Nobel prizes for “Attempted Chemistry”?Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Pinky says:

      Since it was an example of an attempt to pass a stupid law, it did not need to be current. I didn’t say “this is currently happening;” I said here’s an example of ignorance we’ve had to contend with.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        Legislators propose bad law all the time. I’d like to think that legislatures will be more serious now that they know their abortion law matters. But I keep seeing fears that ectopic pregnancy surgery will be outlawed, and no examples of it, so I don’t know what to say. Democracy carries a risk.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

          ’d like to think that legislatures will be more serious now that they know their abortion law matters.

          ROTFLMFAO!

          Oh, damn, that right there is funny, that is.

          Oh, wait, you’re serious…Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky says:

      Sure legislators might have been ignorant in the dark, benighted days of two years ago, but that could never happen today.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

        Sure, they’ve been planning for a Roe reversal for 50 years, and have had thousands of different pieces of legislation drafted and thousands of workshops and draft committees and enacted and enforced a thousand different abortion regulations in 20 some states, but now, this time, right now in 2022, by God they will now get down to do some research to see exactly how women’s bodies work.Report

    • Fish in reply to Pinky says:

      Kansas HB 2746: (3) terminate an ectopic pregnancy that seriously threatens the life of the mother when a reasonable alternative to save the lives of both the mother and the unborn child is unavailable.

      http://kslegislature.org/li/b2021_22/measures/hb2746/ (you’ll have to download a pdf)

      That wording suggests to me that someone in the Kansas state legislature still believes that ectopic pregnancies can be saved or reimplanted or whatever.

      Granted–this isn’t “on the books,” as you asked for. It’s a bill that will be voted on this 2 August.Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to Fish says:

        This is one where my take is somewhat more charitable: they believe that it may be possible to save an ectopic pregnancy in the future. We live in a time when miracle medical treatments are happening. A Covid vaccine in a year. A recent early trial for a rectal cancer treatment with a 100% remission rate. Cataract surgery where they correct your near/far sightedness as well as the clouding. I feel quite sure there are researchers out there working on the problem of saving ectopic pregnancies.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Fish says:

        This item, if it becomes law, wouldn’t outlaw any treatment given our current health care knowledge. If anything, it’s smarter than most legislation.Report

  3. Chip Daniels says:

    The abortion laws, like the anti-LGBTQ laws, are purposefully vague so as to offer no safe harbor to a citizen.

    Like the spate of bills working their way thru various legislatures to punish counseling of abortion services, aiding in the travel to another state, or just dissemination information.
    This is how repressive regimes work, to instill a climate of fear so the citizens self-censor and self police.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I don’t believe that vague laws bother you, given your comments about West Virginia v EPA. Now, this might be a good place for a Simpsons reference. Those old painty-can Republicans!Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

        The example proves exactly the opposite.
        A broadly worded mandate by Congress is given precise definition by the administrative body of the EPA.

        What administrative body is precisely defining the boundary between a spontaneous miscarriage and abortion?Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Winner, winner, chicken dinner. The point is to make it possible to persecute enough people as possible and hold the Sword of Damocles over them as they wonder if they will get the mercy or severity of the law applied to them. Inconsistency is one of the key strategies of authoritarian government. People expect the worse but get pleasantly surprised at the occasional act of mercy.Report

  4. I would add may states are enacting old laws that were written in the 19th cetury because Republicans are cowards ad wo’n’t actually pass post-Roe laws that are precise.Report

  5. Jaybird says:

    its removal is actually, technically, an abortion.

    This is something that I did *NOT* know. Like, I want to say that this is likely a case where the common usage of the term has wandered away while the original technical meaning remains the original technical meaning but, due to the vagaries of language, definition #1 in the dictionary and definition #2 probably ought to switch.

    I mean, in any given layman’s debate about abortion, the definition tends to be mostly agreed upon among those present. Of *COURSE* they’re not talking about miscarriages. That’s completely different. Why, I’m offended that you’re conflating them! And the like.

    And then there’s one asinine DA out there who will arrest a young birthing person who suffers a miscarriage on suspicion of Capital Murder or something like that.

    I remember the debate over the whole ultrasound thing and the assumption of 90% of the males was that it was like the ultrasounds that they show in the Doritos commercial.

    It was explained that, no, at that point in the pregnancy, it’s not an over-the-belly ultrasound but involves a, erm, “wand”. That then needs to be, erm, inserted in order to do the ultrasound thing. And, like, IMMEDIATELY there were a whole bunch of people who moved from the “what’s the big deal with an ultrasound?” column to the “OH MY GOSH THAT’S HORRIFIC” column.

    The “maybe guys who don’t know anything about what they call ‘ladyparts’ should not be passing laws about what they call ‘ladyparts’ then” argument got a *LOT* stronger with that info. That’s well past the “clips vs. magazines” debate. That’s a “shoulder thing that goes up” level mistake.

    And the awful DAs are just going to make this worse.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

      The laws are going to be made by the state legislatures, and you know what they’re like.Report

    • Patrick in reply to Jaybird says:

      I’ll just point out that the “10 million babies are murdered every year” requires you to believe that all of the things medically identified as an abortion (using Em’s definition up above) are… abortions.

      Because you don’t get to “10 million babies murdered every year” without counting them all.

      Now, maybe sure this was a case of “we will take this figure that includes a bunch of things we don’t count because we want to exaggerate the number of abortions we actually find risible (the ones that aren’t necessary by our standards)”, sure.

      But for about four decades people have been pointing out that this is actually what they mean, and the rejoinder is “all life is precious!”, not “well, no, we don’t mean *those*, we’ll update our figures accordingly”.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Patrick says:

        For the US it’s less than one million per year. CDC thinks like 630k(ish). Some other sources would say something like 930k(ish).

        Now if we decide we don’t care about a clump of cells, then cut that number down by 20x. If we decide we don’t care about clumps of cells and shouldn’t get involved in medical nightmares, then we’re basically done and can say we don’t have a problem.Report

        • Pat in reply to Dark Matter says:

          We have pretty much always been within a reasonable delta of abortions per capita and the difference between the US and most of the EU is probably explicable more by them having better access to both contraception and early childhood care than by our (formerly) more permissive abortion regime, yeahReport

  6. Kazzy says:

    “Doctors are not lawyers, usually, and are now left to decide whether routine medical care could cost them their licenses or even their freedom.”

    And lawyers are not doctors, usually. So maybe decisions about what medical procedures should be available in what situations should be left up to doctors and their patients.

    But… nah…Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Kazzy says:

      This is just preaching to the choir, because it assumes away the primary objection to abortion, namely that it’s (according to abortion opponents) murder. You probably wouldn’t say that, e.g., the choice of whether to euthanize a six-month-old infant should be between doctors and parents.

      More realistically, I’ve been hearing a lot lately, mostly from abortion rights supporters, as far as I can tell, how awful it is that the choice of which painkillers to prescribe has been left up to doctors and patients. There’s no shortage of doctors willing to hand out opioids on demand in exchange for money. And not just prescription drugs. If it were left up to patients and doctors, we’d have heroin and fentanyl mills. Most doctors wouldn’t be willing to do this, but enough would.

      And why limit this to doctors? Why shouldn’t terms of employment be left up to the discretion of employers and employees? It’s not like legislators have any special expertise here.

      Like 2% of the people expressing this talking point with respect to abortion are actually willing to apply it consistently.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        If you’re looking for consistency, then the rest of our medical ethics says we don’t allow one person to impose on another’s organs without ongoing consent.

        If my kid (who is clearly human, alive, and has rights) needs my blood to survive, the state can’t force me to donate.

        Pregnancy is far more dangerous than that. It’s more of an imposition, longer, has life long effects, and is normally done for the service of an entity that’s not sentient. It’s at least on a par with organ donation and may be worse.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        The party of supposed small government wants the government telling doctors what medical procedures they can perform and wants the government telling teachers what topics they can discuss with students and wants the government telling social media companies what content restrictions they can put in place.

        It’s almost like they don’t want small government at all but, rather, their own personal preferences enshrined via government.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

          Most Republicans don’t support social media restrictions. Most Republicans believe that government schools should follow government rules. That leaves you with one data point, and yeah, if you believe that the product of conception is a human life, then that falls within government’s traditional purview.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

            No true Scotsman, eh?

            This is from the Texas GOP Platform:
            “(4) Limiting government power to those items enumerated in the United States and Texas Constitutions.

            (6) Self-sufficient families, founded on the traditional marriage of a natural man and a natural woman.”

            So, limit the power of the government to founding documents BUT OH YEA ALSO no gays marrying despite that never being mentioned anywhere in the the founding documents cited.

            Or…

            “Parental Rights: The rights of parents are foundational to Western society and shall be respected, affirmed, and protected by the Texas Constitution and Texas Law. We call upon the Legislature to properly recognize and affirm the fundamental right of parents to make all decisions regarding the upbringing and control of their children in all aspects, especially with regard to the grievous violations of the Texas education system. Any failure to recognize, protect, or honor these fundamental rights shall be actionable. No parent exercising any of these fundamental rights shall be prosecuted as domestic terrorists.”
            …later followed by…
            “The official position of the Texas schools shall be that there are only two genders: biological male and biological female. We oppose transgender normalizing curriculum and pronoun use.
            We hold that biological men shall compete against other biological men and biological women shall compete against other biological women in athletics in the public school system of Texas and at the collegiate level.”

            Parental rights are foundational UNLESS OF COURSE those parents disagree about gender identity.

            I could go on but I don’t really want to spend all day trying to point out that reality exists.Report