Should Americans Be Able to Recall Politicians?

Eric Medlin

History instructor. Writer. Rising star in the world of affordable housing.

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53 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    I’ve always been a fan of these kinds of citizens actions, it’s a necessary corrective for our system.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      Agreed. Mississippi wouldn’t have medical marijuana had not 74% supported the initial referendum. Which the state’s so called leaders tried to quash on a technicality. Thankfully enough politicians were swayed by the vote to ultimately support rule making.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      Corrective actions are called elections.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      What is the difference between a corrective measure and a bunch of people complaining about not liking the result of the election? The number of singatures for a recall is really low. Perhaps it was much harder to get this amount during the pre-WWII era. Now it seems pretty easy. Gavin Newsom had a recall election and his opponents were crushed. A lot of them still go around with mangled metaphors and too much self-esteem of being “Davids” crushed by “Goliath”Report

      • Philip H in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        To be clear, Mississippi doesn’t have a statewide recall on the books. And for reasons you may surmise, the same politicians from the same party keep getting g re-elected no matter how badly they perform. So around here the referendum process is seen as a mid term corrective.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Philip H says:

          I’m not sure a referendum would change that. Mississippi was a solidly Democratic state and now it is a solidly Republican one. The politics of the state have not changed, the politics of the parties have.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        As I state below, the number of signatures is a solid point of contention. It’s something that probably needs a better balance.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    The ability to hold an organized recall is a compromise.

    I mean, there are plenty of ways to say “you don’t get to be in a position of power”. Getting everybody together to vote on it is, like, the best way to do that. It’s a *LOT* more preferable than some of the other ways that have, historically, been used.Report

  3. Saul Degraw says:

    I’m generally opposed to the recall, initiative, referendum, and proposition systems for the following reasons:

    1. Running for reelection is a recall. Recall elections tend to require huge expenditures of public money. There is a good argument that Americans elect too many positions anyway. In California alone, I can vote for the mayor, the DA, the public defender, the Board of Supervisors, the City Attorney, the Community College board, the School Board, State Legislature, State Senate, Board of Equalizers, Governor, Comptroller, Attorney General, retention elections for various judges, etc. It is a lot and there is no way for any citizen to have full knowledge of every position and what it does.

    2. The referendum/prop system always the legislature to shrink from its responsibilties and put things to the people.

    3. Even though the process was designed to stymie corporate power and special interests, the process was quickly overtaken by corporate power and special interests who put forward very similar sounding but contradictory props meant to confuse even the most intelligent parsers and readers.

    I’m told this is a very East Coast attitude.Report

    • Brent F in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      I’m not sure using it as a shield for political cowardice is that bad of a thing. If an issue is contentious and high salience and can wreck careers for touching it, putting the ball back to the people is a way out. Then even if its a disaster, its a disaster the public choose rather than imposed by their betters.

      What seems to be a problem to me is the California system of making the referendum results a higher law than the others, which hurts having a coherent program of governance. Maybe the results should just be ordinary law unrepealable for a limited time, maybe they should be like Westminster referendums and only consultative and of no legal force but moral authority.Report

  4. Jaybird says:

    A minor point: the final numbers weren’t 60-40, they were 55-45.

    The mail-in ballots broke for Chesa and broke HARD.Report

  5. Michael Cain says:

    Yes, although the number of signatures needed to force a recall is an important detail. There have been three attempts to recall Gov. Polis in Colorado. None of them succeeded. Both of the first two would have been successful if the California standard were in use.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Michael Cain says:

      This is my view as well.
      I think recalls are an important tool, but should be compared to impeachment, which requires a pretty high bar to clear.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

      I agree, the signature count should be enough to demonstrate support with out being so high as to represent a serious burden to acquire AND validate.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        My quasi-informed, quasi-thought opinion is that we should keep the ability to recall but that we should make sure the bar is high enough that it isn’t done willy-nilly. I’m not sure if that comes down to signatures or something other than 50%+1 deciding the outcome or what…

        Speaking strictly hypothetically, do we want to see a politician who won an election 70-30 with 1M voters be recalled because of a recall election he loses 49-51 with 500K voters?Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

          Agreed, although part of a recall is always going to be who cares enough to vote. If your popular politician steps in it, those who voted for them in the general election might not vote against in the recall, but they might not be willing to show up and vote for them either.Report

          • That’s a good point. A few years back, in the large school district where I lived, where school board elections were nominally non-partisan, a group of radical conservatives lied throughout the campaign and were elected. Once in place as the majority on the board, they promptly voted to rewrite the American History curriculum, and took on the company that does AP over course content. The AP people refused to cooperate, and denied the district the authority to call classes “AP”. As a result, no “points” in the college application process and no free college credits.

            From the time a group of parents decided to recall those board members, it took less than six weeks to do the paperwork and collect the signatures. At the public library near where I lived, there was a block-long line of people waiting in the heat to sign the petitions. As I remember, the vote was on the order of 80/20 to recall them.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            That makes sense. Which is why I think that just looking at percentages isn’t super helpful.

            Without thinking through all the details, I could envision a structure that required a certain percentage of the people who initially voted FOR the person to vote AGAINST them to make the recall successful. Or something.

            Like, I just don’t think we want to see recalls left and right because someone runs a motivated recall campaign during a busy time of year and gets just enough people who care out to recall someone who was otherwise broadly popular or at least not broadly unpopular.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

              Not workable, but I get your point. I mean, if you had a record of who voted for who…Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                To clarify, I just meant raw numbers.

                Like, if the pol initially got 800K votes than at a minimum you’d need 60% of that to recall… so 480K. Not the initial voters themselves choosing to pull a different lever. So if only 500K people even showed up for the recall, you’d need overwhelming support for it to be successful.

                Then again, if the person won the initial election 500K-499,999 then you could win a recall effort where folks vote 650K-350K against.

                So, not sure my actual proposal works but something that makes it harder to recall someone than to simply vote them in/out during a typical election.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                In cases of Ranked Choice Voting, would you use the first ballot or the last one?

                For example, Chesa got ~69,000 votes in the first round and ~87,000 votes on the third (and final) one.

                The recall itself had ~122,500 votes for “Yes”.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Oh, I hadn’t even considered rank choice voting!

                On the final ballot — the one where he was elected — how many candidates were on the ballot?

                My proposal — which was barely a proposal and would be hanging by a thread at this point — probably completely falls apart if someone gets elected with a non-majority of votes, since you’re starting from a place of — technically — more people preferring someone else than the eventual winner.

                Again, my primary goal would be, “It should be harder to recall someone than to simply vote them in/out in a normal election cycle.” How much harder and how to achieve that, I’d leave to people smarter than I.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                First ballot had four candidates, second ballot had three, third (and final) ballot was down to two. (50.8% to 49.2%, if that matters. In Round 1, he had 35.6%.)Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                So in a head-to-head matchup with another candidate, he got 87K votes?

                And in the recall, 122K voted for him to be recalled?

                If I have both those right, I’d say that shows there was more than enough public support for his ouster.

                Out of curiosity, with ranked choice voting, do you vote a single time but in a way that accounts for the different permutations of candidates? Or do you keep coming back to vote again? The latter would be a run-off right and thus something different?Report

              • Chris in reply to Kazzy says:

                Depends on the method, but usually you vote once (assigning a rank to each candidate), and the permutations (or rounds) are permutations of counting those rankings.

                (Source: me, sitting in coffee shops until the wee hours doing vote counting in ranked choice elections.)Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                You have 4 choices on the ballot, you rank them 1-4. If your number 1 fails to get enough votes, your number 2 becomes your votes. If 2 fails to get enough, 3 is your choice, etc.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Okay. Here’s how I understand Ranked Choice Voting.

                You’ve got four people on the ballot. Let’s use the democrats from last time around because that’s fun.
                Elizabeth Warren
                Pete Buttigieg
                Cory Booker
                and
                Kamala Harris.

                Everybody picks their choices in order. Voter V votes like this:
                1. Warren
                2. Booker
                3. Harris
                4. Buttigieg

                Voter W votes like this:

                1. Buttigieg
                2. Warren
                3. Booker
                4. Harris

                They put their TOP vote first and then their second choice, then third, then fourth.

                Okay. The TOP votes, and *ONLY* the TOP votes are counted.

                Ends up like this:
                1. Harris – 38%
                2. Booker – 28%
                3. Warren -21%
                4. Buttigieg – 13%

                Poor Pete. Came in fourth.

                What we do now is we leave Voter V’s ballot alone! We just leave it alone! We get Voter W’s ballot (and everybody else who voted for Mayor Pete for #1) and say “okay, who’s the second choice” and then add all of the second choices to the previous first choices.

                So let’s assume that *EVERYBODY* who voted for Pete for #1 voted the same way.

                That would make the next ballot look like this:

                1. Harris – 38%
                2. Warren – 34%
                3. Booker – 28%

                So we *STILL* don’t have a clear winner and have to take everybody who voted for Booker in #1 or #2 and look at their ballots and add their third choices to either Warren or Harris.

                Voter V, in our example, is still good.
                Voter W, in our example, now has his ballot added to Warren.

                Once again: Let’s assume that everybody who voted Pete and Booker for #1 or #2 voted Warren for #3.

                Whammo:

                1. Warren – 62%
                2. Harris – 38%

                You can do this with one single ballot.

                The problem, of course, is that this *MIGHT* be confusing for some. How would you do it with a paper ballot and make it clear? How would you do it with a computer touchscreen?

                I’m getting a headache just thinking about it.

                But, anyway, that’s how it works. Kinda. Chesa was more people’s #1, #2, or #3 choice than Suzy Loftus was.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Got it.

                So, again, if more people wanted Chesa recalled than voted him in to office, I have no issue with him being recalled. To me, whatever bar I would set would definitely have been cleared.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Is “third choice of four” a variant of “voting into office”?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I… don’t know? I’m not really sure what you’re talking about.

                You said:
                “In cases of Ranked Choice Voting, would you use the first ballot or the last one?

                For example, Chesa got ~69,000 votes in the first round and ~87,000 votes on the third (and final) one.

                The recall itself had ~122,500 votes for “Yes”.”

                To me, that makes the recall more than legitimate.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Sure. But I’m asking if he had won the recall with something between 69,000 and 87,000, would that have been legit.

                In theory, I mean.Report

  6. CJColucci says:

    Referenda are much overused in some states, like California.
    The problem with making policy by referendum is that it is being made in isolation. Almost all voters want: (1) more resources spent on them and theirs; (2) lower taxes, at least for them and theirs; and (3) a balanced budget. This is, to say the least, hard to pull off, and probably incoherent. Politicians making policy on a day-to-day basis have to consider the impact of doing X on Y and Z and juggle the many considerations involved. A referendum usually puts just X on the table for a yes-or-no vote, and damn few of the voters think about what X will mean for Y and Z. Balancing competing interests is the essence of government. Referenda don’t balance.Report

  7. Pinky says:

    I don’t see any benefit to standardizing recall laws. No one’s going to look at California and be persuaded they’ve done everything right, but to each (state or municipality) his own.Report

  8. John Puccio says:

    Recalls are pretty rare. As are impeachments. Both are necessary.

    You can argue about the merits of them individually but don’t really get why someone who believes in democracy would be opposed to them conceptually.Report