Concerning Proposals To Place Cameras In School Classrooms

Bryan O'Nolan

Bryan O'Nolan is the the most highly paid investigative reporter at Ordinary Times. He lives in New Hampshire. He is available for effusive praise on Twitter. He can be contacted with thoughtfully couched criticism via email. His short story collection Mike Pence & Me is currently available from Amazon.

Related Post Roulette

236 Responses

  1. Philip H says:

    I completely agree. I also find it deeply offensive that the same political cohort who have spent much of the pandemic actively working against mask and vaccine mandates because of those allegedly taking “personal freedom” are so willing to embrace classroom cameras which do so far more readily.

    They also don’t ever seem to game it out – where would cameras go next? Bathrooms? Locker rooms? We already have too much surveillance in our lives as it is (says the guy typing this comment in a thing he carries in his pocket that can track his movements)Report

  2. Damon says:

    Concur. NFW. I don’t have kids, but this is a foolish idea.Report

  3. fillyjonk says:

    I’m a college prof who has been teaching to a camera (granted, for a very limited audience – only students actually enrolled in my classes) since March 2020* and it’s made my teaching materially worse because I’m more self conscious. If I were being filmed and literally any freaking rando could watch me and presumably critique me, post video clips out of context to ridicule me, or try to “rat me out” to my superiors – yeah, they don’t pay me enough and I’m close enough to retirement I’d just say ‘good luck finding someone who can teach the diversity of classes I do” and leave.

    (*first, because campus was closed and I had to complete the semester from my living room, then it was because they oversubscribed one of my classes and we couldn’t fit in the room with appropriate distancing, and now it’s mainly for people having to isolate/with health issues or childcare issues. I planned SOMEDAY to quit offering class over zoom, but every semester thus far I’ve tried there’s been a bad new variant, and so I just keep laboring under the zoom curse)Report

  4. InMD says:

    Cameras are a terrible idea. But I also think part of defusing that sort of talk requires some transparency (as the OP mentions, which is great) but also some accountability for the way things have played out in a lot of places over the last 2 years. You still don’t hear a lot of ‘we could have handled this better’ which doesn’t bode well for lessons learned. There’s some serious trust issues right now and I think re-establishing it will be a two way street.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

      Yeah. 100%.

      This might be a good place for the “what’s the *REAL* issue?” problem.

      Is having cameras in the classroom going to address the *REAL* issue? Because maybe the *REAL* issue is one that would be addressed by something else entirely.

      The original post says:

      Parents should absolutely be informed—nay, very well informed—on what their children are being taught and what materials are used in that teaching. Parents should have a say in these decisions, too. Parents should have an active role in not only advocating for their child but in ensuring that the school culture is one that benefits each and every child.

      This strikes me as an attitude that will address the *REAL* issue.

      Part of the problem is the feedback loop of
      “What are you teaching the kids?”
      “Why do you want to know what we’re teaching the kids?”
      “BECAUSE MY KID IS IN THE CLASSROOM!”
      “Well, that doesn’t entitle you to anything!”

      And so a 100% transparent policy of “here’s the syllabus” might have worked (I mean, seriously, nobody has ever read one of those so I don’t know why they aren’t given out by districts more) but suddenly it becomes a tug of war and, eventually, it escalates to “we want cameras in the classroom!”

      And, let’s face it, it’s not that there’s a policy against cameras in the classroom. It’s that there’s a policy against a *NEUTRAL* camera in the classroom.

      Wanna see a fistfight in a classroom? I have good news! They’re all over! Students film them! Here’s a guy bullying another kid! Here’s a girl bullying a boy and he snaps and puts her on the ground! Here’s one where the teacher gets up and leaves! All of them were taken by students!

      And the more and more that these outliers make it to the public arena, the more and more that the school districts argue that there isn’t a problem and no you can’t look, the more pushback they’ll get.

      I mean, I don’t even have kids and my interest in what the schools are doing are purely academic but when I see governor wannabes argue during a debate that parents shouldn’t be telling schools what they should teach, I am not surprised when I see the other guy win the next election.Report

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

        Are we of the opinion that parents are only just now finding out what their kids are learning in school? If so, then the only ones at fault are the parents.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

        “ “What are you teaching the kids?”
        “Why do you want to know what we’re teaching the kids?”
        “BECAUSE MY KID IS IN THE CLASSROOM!”
        “Well, that doesn’t entitle you to anything!””

        Schools don’t respond that way. Stop making stuff up.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

          Here’s a moment from a recent debate in Virginia. Pay attention to Terry McAuliffe.

          (There’s also a recent kerfuffle involving a school board in San Francisco that may prove to be another counter-example.)Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

            That doesn’t say what you seem to think it says. Try again.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

              “I don’t think parents should be telling schools what to teach” is a vastly different statement than “You’re not entitled to know the curriculum.”

              You are beyond intellectually dishonest. You’re simply full of shit. So stop.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

              Trying again.

              Just last week, a school in Virginia made news when they put up a sign in the library that said “Stuff some adults don’t want you to read” on the “recommended books” table with some recently controversial books on it (yes, including Maus).

              That story was quickly followed by the School apologizes for ‘Stuff Some Adults Don’t Want You to Read’ sign in library story.

              The idea that the relationship between parents and teachers is adversarial is going to end up with parents winning.

              If you don’t like the exact phrasing of my paraphrase of what the school said, fine. I’ll withdraw it.

              I do not withdraw the perception that the relationship between parents and educators is becoming more adversarial and that is going to go places where teachers are going to be writing stuff like “what do you mean they want to put cameras in classrooms?” op-eds.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Anecdotes. Anecdotes we know about because of the level of transparency available.

                It’s okay to admit you’re wrong. Good even.

                You. Dont. Know. How. Schools. Work. I’m sorry. You just don’t. You have an opportunity to learn and reject it because of what you see on social media. It’s sad really.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I have no idea how schools work. None.

                Well, beyond the whole “how they worked when I was a student in them” thing. My experience was as one of the “math club, theater-adjacent, D&D” kids, though and, on top of that, I went to a school where there were things like “math clubs”, “theater programs”, and “D&D”.

                The majority of the kids in my high school went on to college. (Heck, the one in New York had a sizable number of kids go to Ivy League schools. I wasn’t one of them.)

                So my experience of school, what little I have, comes from a “place of privilege”, I believe the kids call it now.

                And it is with that perspective that I see a bunch of anecdotes that will make their way into more “places of privilege” and if schools respond defensively rather than openly, they will find that their relationship to the community works somewhat differently than they thought.

                And I don’t think I need to know “how schools work” to be confident about that.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Schools doing good work doesn’t make headlines. A little critical thinking goes a long way.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                You see a headline. You’re told its an anomaly. You ignore that. Why?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Oh, indeed.

                “Schools making headlines” seems to indicate a failure state.

                (I mean beyond “Worthwhile Canadian Initiative” kinda headlines.)Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                There are approximately 131K schools in America.

                The idea that they can all stay out of the headlines at all times is laughable.

                And this is before we account for all the non-troversey headlines.

                Don’t get me wrong… I want schools that fuck up to be held accountable. But the notion that you can divine any sort of trends in what is really happening in and around schools from a few headlines is nonsensical.

                Didn’t someone just share the Cardiologists and Chinese Robbers post or something? Go look at that.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy says:

                “[T]he notion that you can divine any sort of trends in what is really happening in and around schools from a few headlines is nonsensical.”

                no need to worry about that ‘Maus’ thing, then?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                But the notion that you can divine any sort of trends in what is really happening in and around schools from a few headlines is nonsensical.

                Perhaps it is.

                But if I were a local and I wanted to know if everything was on the up-and-up at my local school, one of the first things I’d want to do is get information.

                Here’s the point:
                IF THERE IS PUSHBACK TO ME GETTING INFORMATION THEN THAT IS A RED FLAG

                Yes, I understand that parents will be agitated and there will be a great temptation to treat is as adversarial in kind.

                But treating it as adversarial in kind will be a red flag.

                This isn’t about schooling at this point, it’s about trust and collaboration.

                And we’re shifting from higher trust to lower trust.

                And this is going to get worse before it gets better.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Did you see the post where I outlined ALL the ways schools make information available?

                Read that.

                I’m sitting right here answering your questions and all you have is “Yea but still…”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I appreciate you answering my questions.

                Well, other than the police bodycam one.

                My point here has less to do with getting questions answered as much as pointing out that if we have a Chinese Robber problem, we have a problem that won’t be solved by pointing out that there are only a few bad apples.

                The comparison to police-involved gun discharge events that resulted in a kinetic event where a person of color happened to die of blood loss trauma is a very good comparison indeed.

                Hey, remember back in 2016 where we were talking about the autistic guy’s caretaker getting shot by the cops?

                Good news! A court has overturned the cop’s conviction.

                Sure, there are plenty of anecdotes about bad apples, but proof of the pudding is whether the bad apples are removed from the barrel.

                Or, of course, whether they’re actually bad.

                Are you an apple inspector or something? Do you have a degree in apple coopersmithery?Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                “The idea that the relationship between parents and teachers is adversarial is going to end up with parents winning.”

                Winning what? This is going to work out exactly like the dog that actually caught the car it was chasing.Report

              • Winning what?

                A dominance tug-of-war where there will be new policies put in place.

                Is this where I have to say “I’m not saying it’s ‘good’, I’m saying ‘it’s gonna happen'”?

                If so, consider it said.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                In that you and I are in agreement. It’s too bad no one can see these anti-CRT advocates for the charlatans they are.Report

              • Seems like the best defense would be to point out that CRT is an obscure legal theory and, of course, it’s not being taught in schools. Heck, pretend to have never even heard of it.

                “I’m too busy teaching children to idly surf conspiracy websites!”Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                Heh. You’re giving their followers too much credit. How are you going to reason with people who are all in on Christopher Rufo’s ginned up controversy?Report

              • How are you going to reason with people who are all in on Christopher Rufo’s ginned up controversy?

                Well, the first thing I’d do is get all of my people in a room together and show them excerpts from the San Francisco school board meetings and then, afterwards, stand in front of them and say “We are not going to do *THAT*.”

                I would talk about how, yes, Chris Rufo is spreading misinformation but the important thing is that we respond with concern and transparency and demonstrate that we have nothing to hide and nothing to fear.

                I would show Chris Rufo’s tweet where he talks about the NEA fighting back against transparency and say “this is what they’re expecting. We’re not going to give it to them.”

                And then I’d tell my people to respond with openness and to be calm in the face of paranoid people. “These are our partners! Not our opponents!”, I’d say.

                Those are the broad-brush strokes for the game plan of how’d I’d tell my people to do it.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                That’s a great strategy. Now do it in front of the parents who don’t want to hear it.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I watched a school board meeting in my town where a speaker was reminded that she was coming up against her allotted time. Everyone gets the same allotted time. I don’t know how it is determined but it’s just a standard rule. The woman was vocalizing her opposition to masks, which at the time were (and still are, for another two weeks) required by the state. When she was reminded that her time was soon ending and then did in fact end, she shot back, “YOU WORK FOR ME! I’ll keep going.”

                Can you envision any approach other than complete capitulation to her desire — something the school could not legally do — that would have made that woman feel like a partner?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                My first car was a 1982 Subaru GL.

                By the time I got rid of it in 1996 or 1997, it had a *LOT* of problems. A ton. Asking me in 1995 “what could possibly fix this?” Has a *LOT* of answers but most of them have to do with “well, it could have done with more oil changes over the last 5 years, could have done with more brake maintenance, could have dealt with more transmission maintenance, could have taken it to the shop more often…”

                “But what could fix it *NOW*?” is a question that ignores a lot of back story.

                There’s also the option of saying “this woman is crazy”. (That can get fraught, however.)Report

              • JS in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                “Winning what? This is going to work out exactly like the dog that actually caught the car it was chasing.”

                The underlying assumption here is that parents are better teachers than teachers. Ergo, what parents want is materially better for all children than what teachers want.

                The fact that this isn’t true, and that the average parent can barely teach their own child basics (and that’s WITH their 10,000+ hours experience with their own kid), is immaterial.

                It’s an obvious, fundamental, unspoken, and rigid belief that PARENTS are sacred, sacrosanct, pedagogical experts far superior to the GLORIFIED BABYSITTERS sitting in the classroom.

                In short, it’s the sort of assumption someone who has never had to teach or even deal with someone else’s kids for more than a few days would come up with — ivory tower BS.

                Anyone who has actually dealt with other people’s kids — dear god, yes, we’re aware you think your child is an angelic figure of light, but she’s got unmedicated ADHD and just stabbed another kid with a pencil without even a shred of provocation. What, you want us to kick out the OTHER kid for upsetting your angel with her cries from the pencil stuck out of her leg? WTF?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to JS says:

                I get this. At the same time I’ve had to repeatedly step in and fix things when the system drops the ball.

                Worse, I’ve occasionally run into situations where the system’s best interests and my kid’s aren’t aligned. I’ve talked to other parents who have experienced worse.

                The teachers are better than I am most of the time, but it’s not their kid on the line. Launching the children is my responsibility.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

        “[A] 100% transparent policy of “here’s the syllabus” might have worked…”

        The problem with a 100% transparent policy of “here’s the syllabus” is that it invites parents to offer their opinion of the syllabus, and educators do not want parents offering their opinions about any god damn thing, which is why we’re having this conversation in the first place.

        Which is to say, I would say that “the REAL issue” is that parents feel like they ought to have some say in what their kids learn and how, and educators feel like parents ought to shut the hell up and pay their damn taxes and be happy that their stupid snot-nosed brats are even allowed into the schoolReport

        • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck says:

          Where are these schools that have a hidden syllabus?

          Which school has a secret curriculum that parents aren’t allowed to see?Report

          • JS in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            It seems some people confuse “I haven’t been personally hunted down by the local ISD’s superintendent and given a 6 hours power-point presentation on the entire school curriculum” with “hidden curriculum”

            You want your child’s curriculum? Ask the teacher. Look at the website. Contact the school — what granularity do you want? State standards for their year and subject? State + local standards? The books, materials, and projects planned for the year? The weekly lesson plans as they’re generated?

            It’s a weird sort of narcissism to believe if you don’t KNOW something that no one knows — or it’s being kept from you. Instead of, you know, the thought that maybe you haven’t gone looking to learn it.

            Main Character syndrome, perhaps. You’re the main character, which means if something you want to know you don’t know, it’s been KEPT FROM YOU — because that’s how it works on TV.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to DensityDuck says:

          “… educators do not want parents offering their opinions about any god damn thing, which is why we’re having this conversation in the first place.”

          Lies.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

      Largely agree; but my usually more pessimistic take is that we’re living through the erosion of what little trust and solidarity we once had.

      No one wants cameras for teachers they like in schools they trust.

      The rise in interest is symptomatic of the bigger issue.

      My contrarian take is that the sides will eventually switch; education is too important to be left to parents.Report

    • John Puccio in reply to InMD says:

      Just a theory, but it seems to me that floating “cameras in the classroom” is more of a negotiating tactic for parents to achieve greater transparency and input. IF it is intended to be a concession in exchange for what these communities really want, anchoring the ask like this is probably going to work.

      Of course, that is probably giving them more credit than they deserve.Report

  5. Kazzy says:

    Cameras in classrooms are a horrible idea for lots of reasons.

    Unfortunately, certain big name corporate day care providers offer them to parents of young children as a perk of their centers. I fear that could be the camel’s nose.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

      Google “daycare worker hits child”.

      Don’t watch any of the videos. You’ll quickly become outraged.

      It’s not that the cameras are the perk, it’s the implicit argument that “our workers are doing such a good job that they don’t mind you watching them do it” is the perk.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

        Please continue lecturing me on how daycares work.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

          Let’s google “white cop shoots black guy” and base every policy decision on the results, shall we?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

            You have no idea how much I am willing to run with that.

            “So would you see police wearing bodycams as an improvement?”

            I am willing to go further, of course. But that’s a starting point.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

              So you support defunding the police?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I don’t!

                I did support more bodycams for police officers, though.

                Do you support bodycams for police officers?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Defunding the police is the only rationale solution to the obvious scourge of white cops shooting black men that is happening every day in every town in America.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy says:

                Kazzy, do you support bodycams for police officers?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to DensityDuck says:

                It’s not about what I support… it’s about what Twitter tells me about objective truth in the world and my unwillingness to apply critical thinking skills.

                The fact is every negative situation involving police — of which there are clearly millions a day — can only be solved by defunding every force in America.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy says:

                Kazzy, do you support bodycams for police officers?

                You’re being remarkably evasive about answering a simple question.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to DensityDuck says:

                I want the obviously right thing to be done.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                And if you asked the police to provide numbers, and they instead told you to stop paying attention to “Fake News”, then what?

                Seriously, you have no idea how much I am willing to run with the whole “what happened after George Floyd?” thing.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                What numbers do you want?

                I spent hours yesterday explaining something to you only for you to doubledown on Twitter conspiracy theories. Color me jaded on your interest in data.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I don’t want numbers.

                I am okay with a loosey-goosey qualified answer.

                Do you understand why people are pushing for bodycams for police officers?

                I assume that you do. I assume that you think that bodycams are reasonable.

                I assume that you might be willing to go so far as to say “If I were a good cop, I would *WANT* my bodycam to be on at all times when I wasn’t in the bathroom!”

                How much of that is off-base?

                (And, yes, yesterday I appreciate how much effort you put into explaining that. Seriously. I understand the issues better then I did when I started. The good news is that a lot of what I said is measurable and we’ll be able to see whether it pans out. Like you’ll be able to point to it and say “this did not happen, Biden and the CDC did not announce relaxing mask mandates at the SOTU!” or the like.)Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                They’re already doing that, despite the cameras.

                Do you think teacher unions would respond any differently than police unions to bad stuff caught on camera?Report

              • I think that teacher unions would not benefit from being compared to police unions.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                The police unions don’t care. Why should teachers?Report

              • Because of stuff like Charter Schools.

                Say what you will about the Police, but there isn’t really an alternative being floated. Just “Defunding”. (“Defund Public Education!” would go over about just as well.)

                Public Schools are currently having to deal not only with Private Schools but disaccreditation and being replaced wholesale.

                And anecdotes like “There are six schools in Baltimore that don’t have a *SINGLE* proficient student… no, not even *ONE*” have arguments like “well, those schools are bad and should be replaced” follow them.

                “Oh, replace them with *WHAT*!?!?”, you may ask triumphantly.

                “Charter Schools”.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

                Hey, now that I think about it, there *WAS* a bit of a movement for something like “Replace Police Officers with Social Workers!”, wasn’t there?

                “Community Outreach Officers” or the like.

                So… yeah. I think that there are a *LOT* of fruitful comparisons to be made between the police following George Floyd and the current situation that education happens to find itself in.

                (I still think that getting rid of QI is a good idea.)Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                There was a movement afoot here in Chicago by charter school teachers to unionize. Turns out nobody likes dealing with bad management.

                The right’s been trying to kill off public education for a few decades now, and, sadly, now we have a new front in the war.Report

              • I remember during the George Floyd mostly peaceful protests that there was a leader of a police union who was flabbergasted that a leader in the teacher’s union was echoing a lot of the sentiment that was flying around in the summer of 2020.

                “If they’re not going to show solidarity with us, we’re not going to show solidarity with them”, the police guy said.

                I can’t find it, but I thought it was an interesting (and illuminating!) moment.

                If it remains accurate, the right has more allies in the fight than it did a bare two years ago. (Or, at least, fewer opponents.)Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                The last paragraph is kind of befuddling. Can you expound?Report

              • You said “the right’s been trying to kill off public education for a few decades now”.

                I was just pointing out that, once upon a time, the police unions could have been counted on to stand in solidarity with the teacher unions to protect public education against the right.

                If what the police union guy said is accurate at all, the police unions are no longer going to be protecting public education against the right.

                Solidarity, man.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                I don’t know what other cities are like, but PD and FD employees have for years self-segregated themselves for years into some pretty tight enclaves. It used to be the case that Catholic schools were pretty strong in those neighborhoods, but as the public schools began to improve, people began to realize they were already paying tuition in the form of tax dollars, so enrollment at public schools exploded there.

                Of course, no one’s in IL is going to pass one of those nitwit laws restricting what can or can’t be taught, or seen, in a classroom. So, while the FOP 7 might (or might not, you never know what’s going on in the pinhead of its president) rail against some perceived slight in the schools, whether they are allies of the CTU or not won’t make a bit of difference.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy says:

          “Please continue lecturing me on how daycares work.”

          i was honestly not expecting that as a response to a suggestion that one look for news reports about daycare workers hitting childrenReport

  6. Oscar Gordon says:

    I suppose you could have all footage pass through a scrubber that blurs or pixelates all faces/bodies and alters all voices. But I’m betting the people who want cameras wouldn’t want that.Report

    • You could also run a separate wired data network for the cameras and do any recording on a server that was physically secured and had no connection to the internet. But that’s a serious pain in the butt to install and manage.

      Working assumption should be that the camera feeds are available to the public.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

        Right, which means the cost of a server(s) that can process all the feeds in close to real time and apply the necessary A/V scrubbers so the feed satisfies the privacy concerns of being freely available to the public.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      I assume that any proposal would include parental passwords and the like.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

        Are you kidding? I’ve seen peoples passwords. School cam systems would be cracked in minutes because people can’t choose even remotely difficult passwords.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          “They made us change the login/password from admin/admin so we made it something harder but everybody kept forgetting it so we have the new one printed on a sign above the monitor and we have a sticky on the monitor telling people to look at the sign. AND WE STILL HAVE PROBLEMS.”Report

        • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          Passwords aren’t foolproof, but even I’ve warmed up to online banking and shopping. I’m never going to get on hotel wifi, of course. But there’s some amount of security greater than 99% and less than 100% that we all live with.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

            Here’s the thing, if you are lax on your banking passwords, and someone figures them out, only your accounts are compromised. Your lack of password rigor has no impact on me.

            However, if you apply that kind of loose password standards to your account that lets you view the school classrooms, and it gets cracked, then every kid & their families (and the teachers) are impacted. Plus the likelihood that the system admins will detect the intrusion and shut it down before there is harm done is much, much smaller than a bank or CC system.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              You’re making a good point. It’s a legitimate concern, but I just don’t think it’d prove to be unsolvable.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                Just like online voting… right?Report

              • dhex in reply to Kazzy says:

                yeah this is the kind of unworkable, nonsense proposal that is great for fundraising and playing to the base and just absolutely stupid when considered with any seriousness. the technical hurdles alone are astoundingly big, and clearly whomever floated this idea is either a) ignorant of this fact or b) knows it, and is playing it up because rube bait brings in the dosh.

                this is outside of the utter madness of expecting anyone to work underneath this kind of north korea regime style panopticon b-s.

                playing to the cameras works until you have to actually, ya know, do stuff. (i.e. what sunk the san fran school board with that recall shellacking)Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to dhex says:

                It’s amazing how much money people will give to politicians to talk about such an idea, but when the actual cost of the idea is floated, suddenly no one can find any money in their couch cushions.Report

              • dhex in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                and that’s without considering the time investment by parents required to monitor and do…whatever this proposal is supposed to solve?

                it’s extremely stupid.Report

              • JS in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                They can’t even afford decent books here in Texas. Despite burning some perfectly good ones.

                Schools are taught in uninsulated trailers because there’s no money to get rid of the mold in school buildings, or no money to build more to house far more students than those buildings are supposed to contain.

                God, I hate election years.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                Of course it’s a solvable problem, but very few will like the solution.Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to Pinky says:

        I was assuming recording, to be available only if/when there was an incident. Like police body cams are supposed to work. If parents get unlimited real-time access, things get pricey in a hurry. Every school, equipped with enough upstream bandwidth to provide a hundred simultaneous feeds? Two hundred?Report

  7. Chip Daniels says:

    This is another episode of Satanic Panic, flowing out of the QAnon fever swamps.

    The idea motivating this is that Something Awful Is Happening To Our Children. That there is a evil, hidden cabal of people who must be discovered and punished.

    There isn’t a compromise here, or even a rational dialogue because it stems from a lizard brain fear and hatred. The idea isn’t to provide a superior educational experience for children but to hunt down and punish our fellow citizens.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Do you ever think that you’re caught in a Satanic Panic? When you regularly accuse people of beliefs that they claim they don’t hold to, when every news story -about anything – confirms your world view about people being out to get you, it just fits a conspiracy-theory mindset more than it does a reasoned ideology.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

        Isn’t the main idea being promoted here, that Something Awful Is Happening To Our Children?

        And the logic is along the lines of “Listen to this heavy metal record watch this video of daycare workers abusing children” and you will understand why parents want to ban music install cameras to safeguard their children”.

        If you were trying to write an analogue for the 1980s Satanic Panic, you couldn’t be more on the nose.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          I’ll grant you that in this case, there is a perceived threat to children, so I understand the analogy. When you describe this camera proposal as turning schools into a “place where children can be indoctrinated into the conservative worldview”, the analogy seems equally apt.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

            I just notice that the same people wanting cameras are also demanding to remove books on LGBTQ and black themes..

            So call it a hunch that the real purpose of this is to punish WrongThink.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Are they? I haven’t followed this story at all, but it seems like there were very few examples you could come up with for book restrictions. Do you know if it’s the same people, or are you just assuming it on the basis of your version of WrongThink?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                It’s generally better to follow a story before commenting on it.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                True.

                Do you know if it’s the same people?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Yes.
                They are all conservative Republicans.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                That’s the conspiracy thinking I was expecting. It’s all them, they’re all in on it, they’re all doing the same thing.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Pinky says:

                I realized this recently, and it’s been like a Rosetta Stone for me. I never understood the certainty, the wrongness, and the lack of malice. I mean, with some people you can tell they’re wrong and insistent and just awful, but I don’t get that vibe from you. The whole earnestness and fervor maps to conspiracy theorist.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                So far, camera’s in class room bills have only been proposed by Republican legislator in Republican led states. So far, the calls to ban or remove books about and by Black authors, LGBTQ+ authors, and regarding the Holocaust have come from Republican state politicians or “conservative” school board members. These are the news stories. Based on publicly available information, the Venn Diagram covering these two groups is nearly a circle.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                OK, so you don’t know either. That makes all three of us.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                Don’t know what? That Republican state legislators in several states are proposing both cameras in class rooms and removing books by and about Black and LGBTQA+ authors?

                Yeah I do know that as its reported in local and national media. You know it too . . . whether you want to accept it or not . . . .Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                You know some anecdotes about people proposing two different policies, and you rightly identify the people as being rightward. That’s not the same as identifying the same people as proposing both policies. Also, nobody’s proposing the removal of books by the race and orientation of the authors, but by content – and as far as I can tell, obscene or racist content, not historical and informational content. What I’m complaining about is the blind hand-waving. You’re failing to identify the particular issues and individuals correctly, and not bothering to address their arguments, because they’re the Other and you know how they all are.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                I have addressed the arguments on both topics. I generally disagree with the stated purposes of both efforts and the probably outcomes.

                And no, the exact same state senator In Iowa is not necessarily proposing BOTH things. I didn’t believe that had to be the case for purposes of these discussions. Nice dodge though.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                Not a dodge. Chip said, “I just notice that the same people wanting cameras are also demanding to remove books on LGBTQ and black themes”. When I questioned him on it he didn’t respond, and neither have you. It’s just them over there, you know the type, they’re all the same.

                The interesting thing to me would be if we got granular. Chip seems really interested in these stories of book restrictions, so I was hoping he’d know specific people, and that could lead us to specific books. Usually the book stories are one person complaining before a school board, but Chip’s hand-waving presentation makes it sound like all of those Republican types are uniformly trying to ban long lists of books based on something other than obscenity or racism.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Republicans in Florida, Iowa, and Arizona have proposed putting cameras in classrooms.
                Republicans in at least a dozens states have proposed removing LGBTQ books from schools.

                If you want, I can keep adding to my list of links at the bottom of the page.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Kazzy has a comment above where he says:

      “Unfortunately, certain big name corporate day care providers offer (in-classroom cameras) to parents of young children as a perk of their centers. I fear that could be the camel’s nose.”

      Do you know why parents would see in-classroom cameras a a perk? Note: It’s not *ME* saying that this is happening. It’s not *ME* saying that this is seen as a perk.

      Until you can explain why the parents see them as a perk, I don’t think you’ll be able to fight against them effectively.

      And I am dead serious about that.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

        This is illogical even within itself.

        “You can’t fight against it until you satisfy my metric” assumes a lot of stuff I’m not interested in or convinced by.

        I’m not interested in being the Savvy Politics Knower, and especially not convinced that you somehow have a keen grasp over what is or isn’t an effective political fight anyway.

        But I notice that you aren’t putting forward any reasons why you think cameras in classrooms is a good idea, but merely trying to derail any criticism of them.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Chip, it’s not *MY* metric. I went out of the way to make that plain.

          But I notice that you aren’t putting forward any reasons why you think cameras in classrooms is a good idea, but merely trying to derail any criticism of them.

          I think that the problem isn’t “cameras in the classroom” but having reached a place where people want cameras in the classroom and so addressing problems with cameras in the classroom is not going to address the root problem.

          I think that the root problem is the interesting problem.

          And, yeah, having cameras in the classroom ain’t gonna fix it. The problems that others have said that they have with them are mostly good reasons, all told. There are engineering problems, there are logistics problems, and there are privacy problems.

          And, get this, even if you put them in the classrooms, IT’S NOT GOING TO ADDRESS THE ROOT PROBLEM.

          Which brings me back to:
          Until you can explain why the parents see them as a perk, I don’t think you’ll be able to fight against them effectively.

          And I am dead serious about that.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

            Your metric is your demand that I satisfactorily explain something to you.

            I really, really don’t, for the reasons I outlined above.

            But I did “ADDRESS THE ROOT PROBLEM,” twice over. All you have to do is read.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Chip. I’m not demanding that you do *ANYTHING*.

              I am telling you that until you can explain why the parents see them as a perk, I don’t think you’ll be able to fight against them effectively.

              Like, there is a prerequisite to you being able to fight against them effectively.

              I am not the one who put the pre-req there. It was there when I got here. I am merely pointing it out to you.

              You don’t have to explain it to me before I let you do anything. Indeed, you can do whatever you want.

              I’m not your dad.

              See me as someone telling you that if you don’t do the homework, you won’t be able to pass the test.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                You “don’t think [I’ll] be able to effectively fight”…against who?

                Like, unless I can explain something to Jaybird of Colorado Springs, the Republicans in Iowa won’t be deterred?

                Or that the commenters of OT won’t find my comments persuasive?

                Who is this mysterious “they” that is administering some sort of test?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, I don’t *NEED* you to explain this to me.

                Like, this pre-req exists *INDEPENDENTLY* of Jaybird of Colorado Springs.

                The commenters of OT seem to be universally against cameras in classrooms. Like, none of them support it.

                So it’s not them either.

                So now we’re in a place where, again, I say that if you don’t understand why Kazzy said what he said in his comment earlier, you won’t be able to effectively fight against the camel that starts slowly pushing its way into the tent.

                And, again: THAT’S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.

                But, hell. Just paint everybody who is pushing for more transparency in schools as being Trumpy Republicans and anyone who disagrees with you personally as being insufficiently ideological.

                Rots of ruck, Raggy.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Rots of ruck

                That’s a cheap anti-Asian slur. Stop it.Report

              • KenB in reply to CJColucci says:

                So it’s racist to quote Scooby-Doo now?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to KenB says:

                He’s a (fictional) dog and doesn’t know better. Probably can’t make an “L” sound, either. Humans do and can.Report

              • KenB in reply to CJColucci says:

                So that’s a yes then?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to KenB says:

                If I thought you didn’t understand, I’d explain it to you. But you do, so I won’t.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci says:

                You’re suggesting that people with speech impediments are actually just talking like that because they’re racist?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck says:

                No. But you already knew that. I wasn’t aware that people with speech impediments wrote the way they talked. And Jaybird — if he has a speech impediment, which I neither know nor care about — wrote “rots of ruck,” mocking the well-known difficulty east Asians, like my Japanese stepmother, have with the “L” sound.
                But you already knew that.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci says:

                I still can’t wrap my head around the idea that you think Scooby-Doo is a racist caricature of Asian phonetics.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Again, these weird mysterious (some would say non-existent) people who would totally be convinced if only I would adopt your frame of reference and arguments.

                Thanks, I’ll let them work out their own issues on their own time.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, I’m not asking you to adopt my frame of reference and arguments.

                I’m saying that you not only appear to have not done the pre-reqs, you don’t see why they’re reqs at all.

                And that strikes me as a way to not win and not understand why you didn’t.

                Note: This isn’t arguing for the cameras. It’s understanding that the cameras are an attempt to address the root issue (which they won’t actually do) and only attempts to address the root issue will succeed at addressing the root issue.

                But if you can’t understand why what Kazzy said was true, I don’t think that you’ll be able to stand in the winds that will come.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                It’s actually quite easy to explain why some parents might think of cameras in the classroom as a perk, and many already have, but that knowledge, quite widely shared, doesn’t advance the ball. The hard part, I’d say the impossible part, is finding a way that parents who think that can be persuaded that it’s a bad idea, as opposed to adopting other bad ideas that might satisfy the urges that cause them to have the original bad idea in the first place.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to CJColucci says:

                Yeah I know.

                Cameras in classrooms have, until this Iowa bill, been largely the territory of anxious helicopter parents and tiger moms. Which is to say, entirely unrelated to the issue at hand.

                The Iowa bill, like the anti-CRT stuff and lists of black and LGBTQ books, springs from a different well, that of the great conservative culture war.Report

  8. Kazzy says:

    It is astonishing that so many people with zero contact with schools talk so authoritatively on what happens in them.

    Information on school curriculum is readily available. For starters, look in your kids’ backpack (real and virtual). Ample information is right there. Check school or district websites. Tons of info. Look through BOE minutes, or, heck, attend meetings. Go to Back-to-School Night and conferences. Join the PTA (or its equivalent) or make sure you’re on their list serves. Email teachers or administrators. Read every email and communication. If your school/district has an app for students (ours does for HS), log on yourself.

    Seriously… a major reason many parents feel uninformed is because they are so inundated with emails from schools they start to tune them out.

    There is no shortage of information available on what is happening in schools. Full stop.Report

    • dhex in reply to Kazzy says:

      totally agree. especially boe meetings – it’s one of the more informative if tedious 90 minutes you can spend each month.

      but i think the “uninformed” part is a multivariate scenario that’s probably in some cases entirely honest, and in many others entirely disingenuous. or at the very least, a misuse of the term.

      so i don’t totally buy it as an explanation, but it’s entirely plausible in some cases – volume of communications, lack of careful reading, surface-level conversations with one’s students. i am more skeptical when it’s a stand-in for “the school is doing ‘political’ stuff i don’t agree with” (which can cover a lot of ground, if not all of it) – or when it comes to specific issues with readings that have political/cultural slants that don’t appeal to parents. this is where the book challenges tend to come in, be they maus or 1984 or kill a mockingbird, or any of the other popular tomes – it’s not ignorance of the existence of the reading so much as an ignorance of the content coupled with an expressed set of beliefs about resilience and children that are, uh, extremely very bad and dumb. (this is on top of the political beliefs that get these motors going)

      my corner of trumpland hasn’t gone off in any really weird directions, which is great and i am certainly not complaining, but the popularity of these rube bait bills leads me to believe that it’s going to come around sooner than later.Report

      • InMD in reply to dhex says:

        Here’s the issue. When someone reads in one of the gazillion emails they get that the students are talking about the importance of diversity and inclusion during black history month people interpret that as mainstream consensus stuff from the last ~50 years. Color-blindness, equal opportunity, non-discrimination, etc.

        But (and I would ask Kazzy this) what if it means the ever more radical and non-mainstream ways these things have been redefined in academic and activist circles? If that latter has happened, which at least in some places it seems to have, are parents really being informed?

        I would say no. And that’s coming from someone who mostly votes Democrat and whose last piece for this site was basically ‘why cynical disaffected people should still go out and vote for Joe Biden for president.’Report

        • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

          Several points:
          1. Most schools aren’t doing anything much differently than in the past. Those that tumble too far down the woke rabbit hall are making the news in part because it’s not being done secretly.

          2. Failure to disclose all details is not a lack of transparency. More often than not it’s an oversight.

          3. Many of these situations start with some fairly banal happening in the classroom, a child innocuously reporting it inaccurately or incompletely, parents unintentionally asking questions that generate more heat than light, and things snowball.

          When in doubt, reach out to your kids’ teachers. The overwhelming majority want you to. We’d rather explain things before they explode than find ourselves with an angry parent in our principal’s office.

          The best schools/teachers are proactive in communicating. They recognize our job has an element of PR. But not all get this. Assume positive intent and open lines of dialogue.Report

          • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

            I assume that is probably how it is at most places. It’s what I would expect to happen at the private preschool I send my son to. I do think though that for better or worse this is in the public consciousness and is wrapped up in numerous other frustrations about how covid has been managed.

            I would certainly advocate calm on both sides, though I also don’t think schools should be defensive about the questions. If for whatever reason some weird crap has gotten into the curriculum just apologize and get rid of it. If it has not then just say ‘we understand that’s in the news but we don’t do that here. Here’s what we do and if you have questions here is who to talk to.’ And then have that person be helpful.

            I do think that just disavowing (for real) the out there DEI stuff and saying remote learning is no longer on the table probably kills 90% of this. But then when there’s a reluctance to do that we’re going back down a road of distrust.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

              Which is why we shouldn’t let outlandish headlines (which may of may not be true… my girlfriend’s school ended up in the news last year for WokeThink and about 95% of what was written was outright false) drive the conversation.

              But we also need to recognize that the Twitter conversation is a very tiny slice.

              Parents aren’t outraged about CRT. Most parents have never even heard of CRT. In large part because the overwhelming majority of schools aren’t doing anything approaching CRT.

              I agree that the worst woke offenses are maddening… and I’m someone who supports schools doing better on issues related to DEI. But if you peaked into most PD workshops on the matter, you’d either role your eyes at how dumb they are, grit your teeth at the waste of time, and/or pity teachers being asked to bring in and discuss a toy from home that illuminates something about their identity.

              Like, for reals, people are up in arms because teachers were asked to choose an emoji that reflects their feelings on how welcome they felt in the gym that day (the eyeroll emoji was not available).

              There are lots of real things to be concerned about in schools. This just really isn’t one of them.

              And at the same time, I’m not losing sleep over cameras in school. That also feels like a real nothingburger.

              I mean, who the F is gonna pay for them? My well-resourced district needs me to send in tissues!Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Similarly, I’m not going to get worked up about the school that did math word problems about slave.

                That was wrong and that school should fix it and make sure it doesn’t happen again.

                But that was that school’s issue.

                The schools doing egregious BS should be addressed. But they are a tiny minority and don’t require anything systemic.Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                It’s funny because I find the camera thing deeply offensive. I think it’s terrible from a privacy standpoint and it’s terrible from an ongoing normalization of the surveillance state standpoint. Only in America can we take a somewhat Orwellian problem and come up with an even more Orwellian solution.

                And I trust your characterization of the DEI stuff. Though it brings me back to this issue, of if it’s so obviously silly, and not a great use of anyone’s time, why is it happening? Like, who is in charge and saying it has to be done? There’s a passive aspect that doesn’t make sense to me as though it’s just sort of spontaneously occurring. Someone somewhere is picking it up.

                I also hear you that real life is not twitter. But neither is twitter some closed off, private conversation. People worry about the very radical, very outside of the mainstream approach to identity that is out there for all to see coming to a school near them. Like, only in a Very Online space could my politics be considered something other than left of center. And yet our more progressive commenters here, at milquetoast OT can strike me as way out there on issues of race and sex and sexuality. I think I am a lot closer to the Normie consensus which is really where the public schools should be regarding this stuff. The Normie consensus, that is, not my particular priors. And not all these identity metaphysics.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                Well, to clarify, IF the cameras become a real threat, I will oppose them vociferously. I’m just not convinced they’re a real threat yet.

                As for how this happens… I mean, there are 130K+ schools in America. Wouldn’t it be weird if some of them didn’t go to an extreme? In individual situations, I’d venture to guess that an echo chamber emerges from a self-selecting group of folks who are passionate about this idea and who feel buoyed by a loud, perhaps minority segment of the broader population.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                The nose of the camel will become the lips of the camel too.

                “You were able to check in on your child during the day during Pre-School. Wouldn’t it give you peace of mind to check in during Kindergarden? Here at the Panopticon Academy, we have nothing to hide.”Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                To Kazzy’s earlier point I think we may be saved from this by the price tag. At least in public schools.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                The panopticon will be for privileged people.

                Poor people will have to make do with assurances.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                Well, privileged people who want that sort of thing. There are others that don’t. All type of boutique demands will be catered to for those with the resources.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                https://www.peanutbutterandjellytv.com/live/

                Would this meet the needs of the folks who are pushing for cameras in K-12 schools?

                I don’t believe these typically contain audio feeds. If parents are concerned about something other than safety (e.g., if they are wanting to monitor curriculum, this wouldn’t really suffice).

                You can also see that this system builds in controls that limit parental access so it is not a 24/7 livestream with constant, unlimited monitoring.

                Do you think that is going to generate the same sort of, “WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE?” questions from parents? And, if so… if parents who want cameras in classrooms would be unsatisfied with one of the leaders in cameras-in-classrooms technology… is it possible that what they’re asking for is something other than, “We just want to make sure something crazy isn’t going on?”

                You spoke of the potential distrust and negative relationships that may emerge (or may already exist between schools and parents). And while I think that schools — as the professionals in the relationship — have more responsibility for maintaining that trust, it is not entirely on them.

                If nothing will satisfy parents, at some point, can we say that the parents are the problem? More importantly, would YOU be willing to say that the demands that parents make in order to feel informed on their children’s school experiences are unreasonable?

                And the pretty much undiscussed thing here is what happens when parent desires are in tension with one another. Sure, we’ve acknowledged that no one here supports cameras-in-classrooms as a policy. But what if I, as a parent, would feel that cameras in the classroom would be detrimental to my child. What if I actively do NOT want them in and feel that placing them in shows a school that is unresponsive to my feelings. What then?

                What should a school do when some parents strongly want X and some parents strongly want not-X?

                These conversations keep being framed as “Parents want X” and “Schools resist X.” That is very rarely how these things play out in reality.

                One way I know this is because we actively survey our parents and seek feedback from them in other ways. Because, ya know, as schools, we never want to hear anything from our parents and just want to shove things down their and their kids throats. (Remember the outright lies we allowed DensityDuck to spew above?)Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Oh my gosh, lookit that. A groundbreaking startup meeting the needs of parents everywhere.

                What if I actively do NOT want them in and feel that placing them in shows a school that is unresponsive to my feelings. What then?

                Go Somewhere Else. The same as if you are upset that your child is being taught history similar/different to the history you learned as a child.

                What should a school do when some parents strongly want X and some parents strongly want not-X?

                What we do in my industry when we have two different managers who have two different visions for two different goals for one singular project is to get everybody in a room with a delicately phrased powerpoint presentation where we frame both desires in glowing terms and discuss the benefits to doing each one, discuss the costs to doing each one, and then say “we’re going to do the cheap one because that’s all we have funding for.”Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                And when the folks who want the other solution insist, “YOU NEVER LISTEN TO ANYTHING WE HAVE TO SAY YOU ARE TRYING TO DESTROY THIS COMPANY WITH YOUR AWFUL IDEAS!”… what then?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                We ask them for more funding.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                You’ve really jumbled this analogy.

                Who are the managers? Who is choosing what manager to favor? Who provides funding?

                It’s almost like a public service needs to be run very differently than a private business.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Who are the managers?

                In my company? Or in various schools?

                Who is choosing what manager to favor?

                In my company, costs tend to.
                When it comes to schools, I’d say that the people who keep showing up are the ones that win out.

                Who provides funding?

                In my company, the VPs and the PMs work together.
                In schools, I want to say that it goes from the legislature to central to the principals. (And principals are quite close to having their hands tied.)

                It’s almost like a public service needs to be run very differently than a private business.

                If I see overwhelming similarly, it’d be in the whole “how do you deal with people who have grievances if you just want to get back to doing your dang job?” thing.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                “Oh my gosh, lookit that. A groundbreaking startup meeting the needs [of a small subset of parents].”

                Fixed it for you.Report

  9. Kazzy says:

    I’m a teacher. Have been for 17 years. My mom is a teacher and school administrator. Has been for upwards of 40 years. My girlfriend is a teacher. Has been for 22 years. I would need more than two hands to count all of the close friends — like close enough to be at my wedding and me at theirs — who work in education, including teachers, administrators, a union rep, a charter school founder, and a textbook writer.

    I have kids in school. So do most of my friends. Different districts and schools and programs.

    I supported the role out and teacher training for NYC’s PreK4All program.

    But, please, will someone here please educate me on what happens in schools, ideally via Tweets and YouTube snippets.

    For crying out loud, the willful ignorance on display here is increasingly astonishing. This place is but a shell of its former self.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy says:

      And the truth is, deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me in that classroom, you need me in that classroom. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who depends on me for his children’s education and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said “thank you” and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a schoolbook and stand at the chalkboard. And either way I don’t give a DAMN what you think you’re entitled to!Report

      • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck says:

        What would that parent who feels entitled to question pedagogical method base his questioning on? Other then vague uncomfortablesness (which is more likely about subject not method) that parent has no idea how to really, really teach kids. That’s why school systems hire people with advanced degrees to teach kids.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

          “[T]hat parent has no idea how to really, really teach kids.”

          it’s interesting how you consider this to be a response that should allay parents’ concerns about what’s going on in schools

          “oh, the teacher thinks that I’m worried because I’m an idiot? oh well, I guess teacher knows best, hyuk!”Report

          • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck says:

            Parents – in every school I have been affiliated with (public and private) have always had open and free access to syllabi, course materials and the teachers. The teachers I have worked with, and others I know as adults, are more then willing to be fully open and communicative. They are also trained to teach. Which means they do more then parents do about how to teach. Just like plumbers know more then I do about removing sh!t water from my house; or welders know more about how to put pieces of a car frame together better then I do; or drywall guys know better how to mud and float then I do. You know better then I do how to do your job. Teaching is no different.Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

              they can totally review the syllabus all they like. what I’m interested in is what happens when they start having thoughts about it. like, from reading your posts here, i’m envisioning something like:

              “I think maybe we could use a different book?”
              “I think maybe you should shut your fat face unless you’ve got an El-Ed degree in your back pocket.”Report

    • Ann Greensburg in reply to Kazzy says:

      What would you do, what would your friends/so/etc. do if asked to teach a controversial subject?
      What would you do differently if it was a controversial subject you didn’t believe in?
      (To be clear, this goes a little beyond “teaching evolution,” because there’s at least a consensus that “this should be taught, even if it’s wrong”).Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Ann Greensburg says:

        Probably quit if I couldn’t successfully advocate for a different course of action.Report

        • Ann Greensburg in reply to Kazzy says:

          And if the “controversial subject” was one you believed in?
          Say, children should sacrifice their autonomy in order to obtain Vaccine Passports (and be a little safer, if you choose to not believe the FDA Advisory board?)?
          [I understand that you’re dealing with kids who may not be able to give informed consent. What if you were dealing with middleschoolers or highschoolers?]Report

          • JS in reply to Ann Greensburg says:

            Oh FFS.

            Mandatory school vaccines, the famously controversial subject of “Things that have existed for the last 50 years”.

            God this place has gone downhill.

            Half of every thread is the same person furiously JAQing off in clear and obvious bad faith, and now this crap.Report

            • Ann Greensburg in reply to JS says:

              In case it wasn’t obvious, I was referencing the COVID19 vaccines, which aren’t mandatory to school aged children, in most of America.

              I’m not sure if you’re just “trying to move the goalposts” or sincerely ignorant of the bent of my question.

              “Here is this controversial thing we’d like you to teach” — and I am asking for a teacher’s response to “What would you do if you agreed with the controversial thing?”

              The specifics are not important. If you actually disagree on this being controversial, you might have suggested a different example. That’s what arguing in good faith means.Report

              • Oh no, he’s well aware. And like a lot of us, adding the COVID 19 vaccine to the long list of required vaccines is a no brainer. It’s not any more controversial then the annual flu shot (which many districts require), or changes to the formulations of the other vaccinations kids regularly need to take.Report

              • Ann Greensburg in reply to Philip H says:

                Would it be too much trouble to ask you for your e-mail address? I’ll take any covid19 discussion off this post, as it is manifestly Not On Topic.Report

              • JS in reply to Ann Greensburg says:

                Yes, I knew what you were referring to.

                Do you know how many mandatory vaccinations you need to enter a public school in America? From your tone, you clearly think it’s just “COVID”.

                It’s not.

                Stupidity and hysteria like yours has prolonged this damn epidemic and I’m sick if weaponized idiocy, so I’d ask you to stop wielding it.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to JS says:

                it’s “sick of“, sir

                HTH HANDReport

          • Kazzy in reply to Ann Greensburg says:

            I regularly teach things other find controversial but which I think are important for children to learn.Report

            • Ann Greensburg in reply to Kazzy says:

              Do you make any especial effort to notify parents of these controversial subjects? (Given the knowledge glut that is out there?)

              If the difference between “Either the book goes, or I quit” and “I keep really quiet about this” (Distributing the Standard Information) is “how much I believe in the topic at hand…”

              It certainly seems to be something parents would get upset about. “What do you mean you are putting condoms on bananas and not telling us? That’s our job!” (To take a less controversial controversy than Covid19 vaccinations).Report

    • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

      The problem is teachers needing extra hands to count over 10. (It’s a joke, people! Lighten up!)Report

  10. Slade the Leveller says:

    But those who rail against teachers are often conflating the embarrassing behavior of teachers in big city districts—or, ahem, Virginia . . . or California—with those of their local schools [emphasis added]. In many places your child’s teachers are your neighbors. They shop where you do, pay the same inflated prices as you do, deal with many of the same frustrations as you do.

    Schools everywhere are your local schools. This sort of divisiveness is exactly how America has ended up the way it is right now.Report

    • JS in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

      “Schools everywhere are your local schools. This sort of divisiveness is exactly how America has ended up the way it is right now.

      The key is understanding these people are rarely talking about their own schools. They’re talking about other schools, elsewhere, they don’t agree with.

      They’re angry because other people’s kids are being taught things THEY don’t agree with — and screw what those kids parent’s think.Report

  11. Chip Daniels says:

    The context for this action is the rash of bills censoring the teaching of racial history and LGBTQ themes. The motivating idea is that schools are the place where children can be indoctrinated into the conservative worldview. Part of this is to silence or intimidate teachers.

    A lot of liberals, particularly those of us in blue states, have no idea how radical the Republicans have become. That, for example, same sex marrriage and even contraception is on the Republican hit list.

    We like to imagine that social progress is “settled” but it isn’t. And as we see from the younger generation of conservatives like Shapiro, they are not even at peace with feminism, much less civil rights or LGBTQ rights.Report

    • JS in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Ken Paxton (Texas AG and indicted felon) just reinterpreted long-standing law and decided gender-affirming therapy is child abuse.

      To wit: Gender affirming therapy in children requires parental consent, the child’s consent, and at least two qualified experts following WPATH guidelines and diagnostics to agree. It consists of social transitioning (name, pronoun, clothes — in short, something that takes a shopping trip to undo) until puberty, puberty blockers until late teenage years (a common treatment for precious puberty, whose sole major side effect is a slight increase in height due to a longer period of pre-puberty bone growth), and then HRT starting around the age that teenagers are capable of part-time jobs, emancipation, and even marriage — again requiring parental, teenager, and expert consent and mostly reversible (some hair growth and breast development would require more than stopping HRT to undo). And no surgeries until after 18, in which case children have full bodily autonomy.

      To Ken Paxton, this is now child abuse. That is — the joint agreement between child, parents, and experts following medical guidelines is CHILD ABUSE.

      And ignoring parental and child wishes and going AGAINST medical advice is apparently “proper child rearing”. Got to love that small government and personal freedom party.

      God, it’s basically gays and the 1990s again. “Think of the children” BS, and what’s sad is watching people our age fall for it.

      (Ah, someone beat me to it below)Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to JS says:

        Let me guess. Ken is running for office and putting himself in the headlines?Report

        • JS in reply to Dark Matter says:

          Indicted Felon Ken Paxton is, indeed, up for election this year and fighting a primary. I don’t expect him to lose either, because the man is a champion panderer.

          And if a few trans kids kill themselves because of it, well that’s a price he’ll happily pay. They aren’t his kids.

          As the Texas GOP cheerfully and openly stated during the pandemic — the death of voters in return for the GOP’s economic and political success is a a price they’re absolutely happy with.Report

  12. John Puccio says:

    While most everyone is reacting to this from a teachers perspective, I don’t think it’s really a good idea from a student’s perspective either.

    Kids that say or do something stupid and/or regrettable – it’s potentially forever. The kids have enough opportunity to damage their future via social media. They don’t need another channel to embarrass themselves in perpetuity.Report

    • fillyjonk in reply to John Puccio says:

      Or for that matter: some kid decides that beclowning themselves deliberately (and derailing the entire class) is a way to become Internet Famous. I mean there’s a subset of kids (and college students!) who do absolutely asinine stuff in class WITHOUT cameras that stops everything dead and derails the whole class, imagine people wanting to do that for online clout

      and the flip side: the shy kids terrified of having their face or voice on camera will never speak in class againReport

      • Chip Daniels in reply to fillyjonk says:

        Or gay kids who are afraid to be out at home.

        Which is the real issue here, that of conservatives being terrified of people expressing WrongThink.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          It’s not just kids not being out at home, either.

          There are kids who are out at home _and_ out at school and still shouldn’t be ‘exposed’ as gay to the wrong people.

          Let’s imagine these cameras are up, and one of them catches a 16-year-old boy kissing another 16-year-old boy in some empty classroom. Maybe that’s vaguely against the rules, but it’s ‘Hey, stop the PDA, put a foot between you two’ from the teachers, not any actual problems.

          But what do people think the asshats that are going to be the people watching the streaming cameras are going to do? How are _they_ going to react?

          And even if _both_ the kids are fully out, to parents and friends and everyone…exactly what do we think is going to happen to those kids when the conservative wackjobs who go to school board meetings and scream about masks start going and screaming about _them_, instead?Report

    • Philip H in reply to John Puccio says:

      I think I actually mentioned that above. Plus, where does this end? When the root cause – whatever it is – isn’t rebuffed by cameras in the class room, where do they go next? The teachers lounge? The bathrooms? The locker rooms?Report

  13. DJJ says:

    This makes so much sense. I dare say that the advocates of cameras in the classroom would rail against them in their own workplace. What’s bad for the goose is bad for the gander… The last place I worked instituted some kind of keyboard/computer activity monitor to somehow correlate productivity with keystrokes. Amazingly stupid on several levels. Don’t think – just type! I am surprised BO thinks of this as a right wing thing. I see it more as a left wing activity (Meta, Google, et al.) Regardless of it’s political affection it is a horrible idea. Then again, if you think having a chip embedded with all your medical information is a great idea you’ve given up long ago. Grab your ankles and shout INCOMING!Report

  14. Chip Daniels says:

    So, we’re over a hundred comments in on the topic of installing cameras in schools, and not one person has stepped forward to say they support the idea.

    Not one person has identified a problem which is meant to be solved, or why this is a good solution even if there was a problem.

    The opposition to installing cameras in schools seems near-universal is would appear.Report

    • Bryan O'Nolan in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Which I’m glad to see. And yet, I know there are School Board candidates in towns that matter to me educationally (Wife & I both teachers in districts which our boys do not attend) who have brought this suggestion forth. There was even a Bloomberg piece responding to the idea similar to the way I do.Report

    • Ann Greensburg in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      When I was a kid, the teacher recorded his lessons for me, when I was unable to be there. He recorded other lessons for the hearing impaired student.

      I’m pretty sure this is built into existing laws, with the IEP (Individualized Educational Plan).

      I don’t think real-time access is a good (or smart) idea. But having a “bank” of videos, that any student or parent can access, so that they can review your lesson? That sounds reasonable. (Give them the blurring software, you don’t need to run it on the school computers).

      Of course, it comes with the “Teachers say Dumb Stuff Sometimes” — and “Teachers harassing students are sometimes trying to be good teachers.”Report

  15. Chip Daniels says:

    Related:
    Amendment to Florida’s ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill would force schools to out students in 6 weeks
    TAMPA, Fla. (WFLA) — A new amendment to Florida’s so-called “Don’t Say Gay” bill would explicitly require schools to inform parents of their child’s sexual orientation, and put a deadline on how soon they must tell the family.

    The amendment filed by bill sponsor Rep. Joe Harding, R-Williston, on Feb. 18 changes the bill to instead not only require disclosure, but requires schools to tell parents within six weeks of learning the student is any sexual orientation other than straight.

    https://www.wfla.com/news/politics/florida-dont-say-gay-bill-amendment-would-force-schools-to-out-students-in-6-weeks/Report

    • Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Pink stars anyone?Report

    • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      It’s the worst thing that’s ever happened! It’s proof of everything that every Republican is secretly working toward! It’s the quiet part out loud!

      UPDATE: The amendment to force schools to out their students’ sexual orientation to parents within six weeks was withdrawn by bill sponsor Rep. Joe Harding on Tuesday, Feb. 22.Report

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to Pinky says:

        Withdrawn due to publicity or because he rethought the text of the amendment he submitted?Report

        • Pinky in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

          I don’t know the guy. I’m sure the publicity was terrible. But if this was the will of the terrifying Republican radicals that Chip always talks about, you’d think he would have had more support.

          My main reason for point out the withdrawal though was so that Chip will be less inclined to put this on the list of all the terrible things that all the terrible Republicans are doing.Report

  16. Chip Daniels says:

    Related:
    Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton: Gender-affirming care for transgender children is abuse

    AUSTIN — Attorney General Ken Paxton has issued a new interpretation of state law that says certain types of medical care for transgender children are abuse, a dramatic change contrary to medical standards that if implemented could make Texas one of the most aggressive states in targeting trans youth access to health care.

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2022/02/21/texas-attorney-general-ken-paxton-health-care-for-transgender-children-is-abuse/Report

    • JS in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      As I said upthread, what a stunning decision there.

      “Medical treatment agreed upon by parents and child, following the advice of experts following national guidelines and best practices? CHILD ABUSE”.

      “Ignoring medical advice, ignoring parental and child decisions? BEST INTERESTS OF THE CHILD”.

      Love that party of small government, personal responsivity, and freedom.Report

  17. Dark Matter says:

    You should watch the movie Anon on netflix. An entire society where everyone is recording everything they do all the time. If you have a murder victim, just look at what he was looking at before he was killed. If you think your lover is cheating on you, you can ask for what they were recording at time whatever.

    Unclear if we’re headed there.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Unclear if we’re headed there.

      You can track people with a small gadget (with a magnet) that reads back to your cell phone.
      There are cameras in stores, banks, parking lots, retail spaces and some workplaces.
      Most employers have keystroke trackers in their computers.
      You have use incognito browsers to keep from being tracked online.
      We carry things in our pockets that we call phones that can track us wherever we are with or without our permission.

      The horse is well past the barn door. We are now debating how big it should be and how far it will go into the field.Report

      • dhex in reply to Philip H says:

        pedantic security note: “You have use incognito browsers to keep from being tracked online.” is untrue. it just keeps it out of your history. to do actual untrackability you need a vpn, a true privacy browser, and a few extra steps. if you’re unwilling to do all that, ghostery and abp (or a related plugin) on your mainstream browser can do a bit more + vpn set to a nation you’re not currently residing in can help.

        that said, never allow the internet of things into your house as much as you are able. burn your alexas, or shoot them then burn them. no nest anything. no google home speakers. no smart bulbs. no “smart” anything.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Or go back thirty years to Drake’s “Lacey” stories.Report

    • dhex in reply to Kazzy says:

      in the news’ defense, that’s not news. i get your frustration, but no one on the national level was reporting on anything the school board in tennessee did correctly before they did their maus routine.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to dhex says:

        Agreed. But if we all know the news is reporting just a sliver, why do we act like it’s the whole story? I don’t need the news to report that but I do need folks to believe that happens.

        We have people here spreading lies about teachers with broad strokes and just act like that’s an acceptable part of the discourse.Report

        • dhex in reply to Kazzy says:

          no disagreement that there’s a lot of bad faith in this area, to the point where it feels like it’s people without kids or school interactions just rolling with the craziest gibberish. twitter poisoning or nationalizing local politics or whatever reason you might want to point at, but not sensible nor reality-based.

          these rube-bait nonsense anti-crt bills don’t help the climate.

          as the sole cause of rising college tuition (aka an administrator) i feel your pain.Report

  18. Chip Daniels says:

    Related:
    Scott wants to ‘rescue America’ through Pledge of Allegiance, strict gender roles

    Republican Sen. Rick Scott wants to rescue the nation by declaring men and women biologically different, raising taxes on low-income earners and spurring children to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. The Florida senator and chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee issued his “11 Point Plan to Rescue America” Tuesday morning ahead of his appearance at this week’s Conservative Political Action Conference in Orlando. The document released by Scott begins with a letter predicting the plan’s derision by his political opponents.

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article258643673.htmlReport

    • JS in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Oh look guys, it’s 2004 except they did a search and replace on “gay” for “trans”.

      Got to scare the surviving Boomers to the polls.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      The pledge thing is particularly interesting.

      First off, SCOTUS settled that matter almost 80 years ago.

      Second, so much of the right-wing educational backlash is rooted in the idea of what students might be made to hear or feel. Yet they have no compunction turning around and forcing compelled speech.

      But expecting any sort of consistency — legal, principled, or otherwise — from the DeSantsises of the world is a fool’s errand.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      eh. I’m still looking forward to that Green New Deal thing.Report

  19. Chip Daniels says:

    Related:
    Abbott says parents, doctors should face ‘abuse’ investigations for transgender health care
    AUSTIN (KXAN) — Gov. Greg Abbott said families and medical professionals should now face abuse investigations for pursuing or providing health care options intended for transgender children.

    In a letter sent Tuesday, the governor directed the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) “to conduct prompt and thorough investigations of any reported instances of Texas children being subjected to abusive gender-transitioning procedures.” His letter stated doctors and nurses could face punishments for failing to report such care and mentioned that DFPS should look into parents who pursue it for their kids.

    https://www.kxan.com/news/texas-politics/abbott-says-parents-doctors-should-face-abuse-investigations-for-transgender-health-care/

    As 80s pop star Boy George might have asked, “Do you really want to hurt me?”
    To which Texas Republicans answer, “YES, WE DO!”Report

  20. Chip Daniels says:

    Related:
    Abbott says parents, doctors should face ‘abuse’ investigations for transgender health care

    AUSTIN (KXAN) — Gov. Greg Abbott said families and medical professionals should now face abuse investigations for pursuing or providing health care options intended for transgender children.

    In a letter sent Tuesday, the governor directed the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) “to conduct prompt and thorough investigations of any reported instances of Texas children being subjected to abusive gender-transitioning procedures.” His letter stated doctors and nurses could face punishments for failing to report such care and mentioned that DFPS should look into parents who pursue it for their kids.

    https://www.kxan.com/news/texas-politics/abbott-says-parents-doctors-should-face-abuse-investigations-for-transgender-health-care/

    As 80s pop star Boy George might ask, “Do you really want to hurt me?”

    To which Texas Republicans answer “YES, WE DO!”Report

    • JS in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Worth noting that Abbot agrees with Ken Paxton that following national medical and psychiatric guidelines are “child abuse”.

      Worse yet, he’s telling doctors and nurses to violate their medical oaths (and the law) to inform on parents, children, teenagers, and doctors following best medical practices.

      Kids will die if this isn’t stopped. But that’s okay, the Texas GOP is fine with dead children if it scares even one more old boomer to the polls.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to JS says:

        My biggest complaint with my liberal tribe isn’t the nutty fringe, but the complacent middle that assumes Republicans are just goofing around, or harmlessly venting.

        They are serious, deadly serious about trans people, abortion, civil rights, all of it.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          It’s a big tent. Some people on Team Red, or Team Blue for that mater, clearly would get rid of civil rights because they’re in the way of their narrow goals.

          The GOP looks serious about handing abortion back to the states and that will probably happen.

          Team Blue’s nuttier wing was successful at eliminating due process at a college level.

          BSDI but this also showcases where their heads are at.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

            No, it isn’t a big tent at all.

            There are no Republicans of any standing who will forthrightly stand for trans equality.
            None will defend the books being banned.
            Almost none will even refute the Big Lie.

            Not one of the self described Republicans here at OT could be elected to even the most trivial level of the party.

            Take that as a compliment.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Attention OT moderators.

              I would like you to leave this comment.

              It is a far more representative version of Republican thinking than anything espoused here.Report

              • Aasta Pasta in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Hahaha. I’m a liberal (and I’ve watched more Jimmy Dore than I have Joe Rogan). I stand against Martial Law.

                Voted for Obama. Voted for Gore.
                (Woulda voted for Bernie, happily).

                Yes, I’m representative of Republican thinking!

                Hahaha.

                Zelensky’s my favorite politician at the moment, simply for massively trolling the world stock market.
                Seriously, can we have more comedians as politicians? Franken was known for being hardworking too.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Can’t say Germany.
                The more you know ( insert rainbows here)Report

              • JS in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                No. Get rid of it. Fuck bigots.

                You know where we get letting bigots spout off to “show the world what they think”.

                Greg Abbot and dead trans kids in Texas.

                And to be blunt, I suspect “Aasta Pasta” is not someone brand new to this website, but one of a handful of regular trolls that the mods simply won’t deal with.

                And they wonder why the number of views and commentators has dropped so much over the years.

                I’m about to hit my limit as well.Report

  21. Greg In Ak says:

    Apropos of Republicans bringing the cruel and stupid and bigoted ( i’m off to a fast start pissing people off) Gov Abbot of one of those small states is going after Trans kids and their families. I’m sure this will get it’s own thread. But that crapsack is ordering parents of trans kids to be reported for abuse. There is more and it’s all bad. The order is up all over the intertoobs.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      just one of my most horriffic parts:

      B. The United States Constitution protects a fundamental right to procreation.
      The United States Supreme Court recognizes that the right to procreate is a fundamental
      right under the Fourteenth Amendment. See Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942).
      Almost a century ago, the Court explained the unique concerns sterilization poses respecting this
      fundamental right:
      The power to sterilize, if exercised, may have subtle, far reaching
      and devastating effects. In evil or reckless hands it can cause races
      or types which are inimical to the dominant group to wither and
      disappear. There is no redemption for the individual whom the law
      touches. Any experiment which the State conducts is to his
      irreparable injury. He is forever deprived of a basic liberty.
      Id. To the extent the procedures you describe cause permanent damage to reproductive organs and
      functions of a child before that child has the legal capacity to consent, they unlawfully violate the
      child’s constitutional right to procreate.

      I guess if you are going end abortion, claiming a Constitutional right to procreate is par for the course.

      https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/press/O-MastersJaime202202221358.pdfReport

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      I think we need to stop deluding ourselves that this is only meant to provide cover-red meat for the base and GOP elites do not really mean it. They just need to distract from tax cuts for billionaires. They really mean it and really want to ban abortion, erase LGBT rights, overturn Griswold, etc.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        And even though it would easy to find a plurality, maybe even majority of Republicans to declare that they certainly don’t support prosecuting parents or imprisoning abortion providers, the more important point is that virtually none of them would offer any serious opposition.

        Like with any horror, the few rely on the passivity of the many.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          The only slightly positive thought I have here is that this is not the action of a man who is confident in his reelection.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          My expectation is the “passive” majority will punish the loonier ideas at the ballot box. Certainly the media would love to put those victims in the news.

          That’s assuming the courts don’t throw out this virtue signaling which is probably what they’re counting on.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

            If you lived in Texas how would you punish a Governor like this?Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              What’s he done again? Gotten rid of abortion? I expect that the pro-choice majority will start voting on that issue again.

              If that’s not the issue on the table then you’ll need to expand which “like this” is.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

            The Courts won’t toss the abortion ban, why do you expect them to toss this? Its a sitting governor acting on the advice of his top lawyer in a politically conservative state, which contains politically conservative federal district judges in a very conservative federal appeals district with a 6-3 conservative SCOTUS that loves to defer to states. Clearly you were undercaffeinated when you wrote theat.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

              The courts have been tossing abortion bans for 50 years. Thus politicians get to virtue signal without actually bearing the electoral consequences of their actions.

              When the Supremes hand abortion back to the states, that changes. Texas will ban it. Their politicians will need to face the electorate, and most people don’t really want that.

              That’s assuming there isn’t a technical solution like sending RU485? through the mail.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      The theory I saw kicked around is that it’s much more interesting a debate than would be caused by exploration of this:

      So the conflict is the point.Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

        The cruelty is the point.

        Yeah i saw that but most texans dont’ seem to have cared last year so i’m not sure they are gonna all of sudden care that much. The AG is indicted and separately most of top people resigned last year because they all said the AG was going illegal/unethical things. And he is still AG.

        Going after Trans kids is the point and the harm is intended.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

        So the conflict is the point.

        Oh good grief. Basic econ time.

        You have blackouts because there isn’t enough supply of power.

        The governor ordered “do whatever necessary to prevent further rotating blackouts that left millions of Texans without power.”

        Without a magic wand to increase supply, the only thing you can do is decrease demand, a lot. By increasing prices, a lot.

        Your menu options are blackouts (shortages) or very high prices.Report

  22. DavidTC says:

    Most years I have had at least one student who, for one reason or another, cannot be photographed. Sometimes it is simply that the parents would prefer not to have a kid appear in pictures. More often it is a question of there being some ramification for the child if someone—an errant non custodial parent, let’s say—were to find out where the student goes to school.

    Foster kids can’t be publicly photographed, either. At least that’s how it works in Georgia.

    It’s probably for the same ‘some of these kids should not be located by certain people’ reason, but it’s not a ‘this specific kid cannot’, it’s true for all of them…if you are a foster parent, you can’t take pictures of foster kids and put them anywhere other people would see them, period. Or let other people do that, to the extent you can control it.

    When my mom was doing foster kids, we’d take family pictures, and then make sure to get pictures without the kids in them so we could put them online, or we’d have to blur them out.Report