Alternate Electors: The Illusion and Pretense of Lawfulness to the Unlawful

Burt Likko

Pseudonymous Portlander. Pursuer of happiness. Bon vivant. Homebrewer. Atheist. Recovering Republican. Recovering Catholic. Recovering divorcé. Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of Ordinary Times. Relapsed Lawyer, admitted to practice law (under his real name) in California and Oregon. There's a Twitter account at @burtlikko, but not used for posting on the general feed anymore. House Likko's Words: Scite Verum. Colite Iusticia. Vivere Con Gaudium.

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25 Responses

  1. InMD says:

    Burt, I appreciate you writing this, and I have undergone a similar evolution as it sounds like you have. I still think 1/6 was ham handed, and pretty unlikely to end with Trump still being president. But the more I read about the level of coordination, the more it sounds to me like there was a plot here, and not just a new level of self-absorbed sour grapes. People are free to write op-eds and stand in the square with signs and go on tv with any nonsense they want. But I don’t think they’re free to do this, and I don’t think a not-to-exceed 5 year sentence for those who participated is unjust, if convicted under this theory you’re proposing.

    I’m reminded of some clients I’ve had who have asked me, metaphorically, why we can’t just call an apple an orange. The obvious answer is because it’s an apple. ‘But what if we draw up some documents that say it’s an orange? What if we pay some experts to show it’s not really different? Other people do it all the time. And I googled this random regulation, and part of the definition of an apple is a fruit that grows from a tree. Well doesn’t this also grow from a tree?’ I’m sure most lawyers have dealt with things like that. Part of the job is talking them out of taking these sorts of positions.

    I think this phony elector thing is what happens when people not only won’t be talked out of it, but delude themselves into believing that if they just follow form the substance doesn’t matter, and they can get what they want. If I’m making it sound more innocuous than it is I don’t mean to. It’s a form of corruption and our system can’t tolerate it.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

      I think prosecutions have to happen, because A) this kind of behavior isn’t prosecuted enough among the politically connected, and B) because people need to realize that while pithy sayings like “I reject your reality and substitute my own.” are fine on T-Shirts, that’s not how reality works.Report

  2. Cody Hopkins says:

    If the Supreme Court had invalidated the election in several states, as Texas (and Georgia, among others) were asking for, what do you think would have been the legality of said electors?Report

    • Philip H in reply to Cody Hopkins says:

      IF that had happened they’d still be looking for work because the remedy would have been a new election, with new electors appointed after.Report

    • JS in reply to Cody Hopkins says:

      Well, ironically, if Texas had won, it would have invalidated Texas’ own election.

      Which I don’t think indicted felon Ken Paxton had in mind, but Texas ALSO indulged in the very things Ken Paxton found so troubling about Pennsylvania.Report

    • Contra some of the other comments, I don’t believe a new election is possible under the Constitution, Federal statutes or (likely) state statutes. If the Supreme Court invalidated Texas’ election, the likeliest result would seem to have been Texas’ slate of electors getting stricken and replaced with… nothing. It’s nowhere written (in Federal law, anyway) that a state cannot abstain from the electoral vote, after all; not all 538 votes must be cast. The winner is the candidate who gets a majority of votes cast.

      If you invalidate Texas and Georgia from the 2020 election you wind up with 290 votes for Biden and 194 votes for Trump. Not the result Paxton ostensibly wanted.

      I think other states, or purported representatives from other states who all happened to be very Republican, in that effort were from Arizona, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. Assume they were all successful and got their slates invalidated, resulting in those states dropping out of the Electoral College also. Result: Biden 240, Trump 194. Even if you will Texas back into the equation by unprincipled magic, it’s still Biden 240, Trump 232.

      Using the law to keep Trump in office wasn’t ever going to work. And why should anyone have thought otherwise? Trump earned his loss, the same way any incumbent President who loses earns it — like it or not, the President generally gets held responsible for all the bad stuff that’s going on at the time and there was a lot of bad stuff going on in 2020, whether or not you think it’s fair to tag Trump with responsibility for it. (This could easily happen to Biden in 2024 too, although it’s still too soon to make a useful prediction about that.)Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Burt Likko says:

        Do you think this would hold for the Pennsylvania or Arizona lists?Report

      • Cody Hopkins in reply to Burt Likko says:

        “Too soon to make a useful prediction”?
        … you have noticed Breyer’s retirement? The one that he didn’t know about until he read it in the papers?
        That’s a prediction on the Democrats’ chances in 2022 and 2024.
        Hard bet, they’re going to lose the Senate and then the Presidency.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Burt Likko says:

        Result: Biden 240, Trump 194. Even if you will Texas back into the equation by unprincipled magic, it’s still Biden 240, Trump 232.

        I am not a lawyer, but we did a deep dive on this during Bush v Gore.

        The winning number is 270. Period.

        If some states get thrown out so no one gets 270, then it goes to Congress.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter says:

          What happens if no presidential candidate gets 270 electoral votes?

          If no candidate receives a majority of electoral votes, the Presidential election leaves the Electoral College process and moves to Congress.

          The House of Representatives elects the President from the 3 Presidential candidates who received the most electoral votes. Each State delegation has one vote and it is up to the individual States to determine how to vote. (Since the District of Columbia is not a State, it has no State delegation in the House and cannot vote). A candidate must receive at least 26 votes (a majority of the States) to be elected.

          The Senate elects the Vice President from the 2 Vice Presidential candidates with the most electoral votes. Each Senator casts one vote for Vice President. (Since the District of Columbia is has no Senators and is not represented in the vote). A candidate must receive at least 51 votes (a majority of Senators) to be elected.

          If the House of Representatives fails to elect a President by Inauguration Day, the Vice-President Elect serves as acting President until the deadlock is resolved in the House.

          https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/faqReport

          • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter says:

            What does “a majority of electoral votes” mean in a situation when fewer than 538 votes are cast? A majority of votes that could have been cast, or a majority of votes that were actually cast? I read it as the latter.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Burt Likko says:

              https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-dueling-electors-explain/explainer-dueling-electors-pose-risk-of-u-s-vote-deadlock-idUSKBN2712M7

              We’re in uncharted territory. However if we have two different sets of electoral votes submitted from the same state(s), if memory serves they’re both thrown out and the magic number remains 270.

              See also the election of 1876.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Absolutely agree we’re in uncharted territory.

                I suggest the right elections to look at to address the quibble we’re having would be 1864, 1868, and 1872, because those are the only ones I can find in which states did not submit electoral votes (because of the Civil War and Reconstruction). The disputed states in 1876 and 2000 got resolved; albeit that neither of them got resolved in the manner specified by the Electoral Count Act, which I wrote about in December of 2020 (several links in the OP here).

                But even the Civil War/Reconstruction elections aren’t that helpful because the absented electoral votes and ultimate totals for the winners (Lincoln and Grant) in each of them were both in excess of a majority of both the actual votes cast as well as a majority of the potential votes that could have been cast.

                The only other case in history where states had electoral votes they could have cast but didn’t was 1789. North Carolina and Rhode Island didn’t vote because they hadn’t ratified the Constitution; New York clusterf***ked itself with internal infighting and didn’t submit any slate. Wouldn’t have mattered, though; even if all of NY, NC, and RI had voted together it wouldn’t have changed the result, even for VP under the pre-12th Amendment system.Report

              • H C in reply to Dark Matter says:

                So there was no crime in sending disputed alternate electorsReport

              • CJColucci in reply to H C says:

                But nobody who was anybody sent these clowns. Maybe a state can send alternative sets of electors in the event of a dispute, maybe not, but here no state did. These clowns did it on their own. And as the Tammany politician once said: “We don’t want nobody that nobody sent.”Report

            • PD Shaw in reply to Burt Likko says:

              The twelfth amendment states: “The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed . . .”Report

              • PD Shaw in reply to PD Shaw says:

                So, in 1864, several states did not appoint any electors. So the required majority was reduced accordingly, but a elector appointed by (Republican) Nevada did not vote, which very slightly reduced Lincoln’s chance of gaining a majority.Report

        • Greg In Ak in reply to Dark Matter says:

          Sigh. If the coup like plan led to the election going to congress that isn’t a neutral procedure. It would be giving the party with control of the House the advantage to pick the president based on their own desires. It’s trying to ignore the results of the election to get a favorable venue to let your team pick the winner.

          You have explained how this was an attempt at a coup to overthrow the results of an election and let R’s choose the prez they wanted.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Greg In Ak says:

            I’ve no clue whether the House would have voted for Trump. Obviously California wouldn’t have but they’d only get one vote.

            And yes, this is all kinds of bad. Looking at the riot I’m shocked that we got through that without huge piles of dead people.Report

  3. Chip Daniels says:

    We can’t really speak of this in the past tense.

    Because the reaction to this news among the Republican party voting base was not shock and horror and outrage, but a smirking silence.

    These people made an attempt to overthrow democracy and faced no consequences. So they are planning to do it again until they succeed.Report