Linky Friday: Beware the Ides of Infrastructure Week Edition

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has since lived and traveled around the world several times over. Though frequently writing about politics out of a sense of duty and love of country, most of the time he would prefer discussions on history, culture, occasionally nerding on aviation, and his amateur foodie tendencies. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter @four4thefire and his food writing website Yonder and Home. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew's Heard Tell SubStack for free here:

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50 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    LF4: I can see an argument against paying them beyond tuition and room & board, although I would recommend that they get a percentage of the school take and that the money gets dumped into a trust account that they get upon graduation.

    There is no good argument against preventing them from benefiting from their popularity. That’s just being a dick because you don’t want the athletes to dilute your brand marketing.Report

    • dhex in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      it’s being a dick because they don’t want to share the revenue from the top. i think a percentage held in trust (so long as the trust isn’t dependent upon graduating at a specific time/place) is a solid idea, but i am not a lawyer so it may be illegal af or otherwise a bad idea.

      that said, a *lot* of sports programs lose money quite directly, especially football. even on the d1 level they’re often subsidized via benefits to recruiting strong students who care about athletics, keeping certain donors happy and generous, and generating some second level effects in media reach in regional or even national markets.Report

    • superdestroyer in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      The school does not make money off sports. Most schools lose money. If the athletes are going to get paid, then stop charging the rest of the students athletic fees. Also, what would be better: making all athletic scholarships full scholarships or paying the starters on the football team a salary.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to superdestroyer says:

        I would not force a school to pay their players, only give them the option* of something akin to profit sharing. Right now, they are being forced to not pay their players anything beyond tuition/room & board/perks.

        I don’t even know if any schools would offer profit sharing to their players, I just think they should have the option of doing so.

        *I would require that this is an all or nothing option for a given program. If you offer profit sharing to one player, you offer it to all on the team, at the same rate. So star players can’t be the only ones paid, or get paid more than the other players.Report

        • superdestroyer in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          But schools complete in conference and divisions. Schools get their players by recruiting. How does competition work is different schools can pay different salaries. College football is not like the NFL which has a players union, a draft, shared revenue from TV, and a rookie salary cap.
          If there is extra money, why not take all partial scholarships into full scholarships or make all scholarships four year/five year instead of one semester renewable?Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to superdestroyer says:

            Sure, whatever. Again, I’m not saying schools must pay salaries to students, only that it is silly for schools to be banned from offering any kind of financial compensation beyond tuition/room & board/perks*.

            *e.g. my Alma Mater gave every football/basketball player a motorized scooter so they could get to classes and practice on time.Report

            • superdestroyer in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              According to the DAwgnation, the players purchased the scooters since giving them the scooters would be impermissible. However, since your POV if Georgia it makes sense that one would not care if playing the players are Georgia shrinks college sports to around 50 football schools.

              Georgia has money to share with players. Vanderbilt, UAB, and Charleston Southern (schools on Georgias 2021 schedule) do not.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to superdestroyer says:

                You need to prove out your conclusion. If GA has the money, great, but GA can only accept so many student athletes, and per one of my comments, if you limit compensation to a flat rate (everyone on the team gets the same amount, regardless status as a 3rd string or MVP), you limit how much a school can afford.

                However, I already said I can see the case for schools not compensating athletes directly. I find the ban on allowing an athlete to benefit financially from their notoriety to be without merit.Report

              • superdestroyer in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Paying the subs the same as the starters means that a player has to balance the current compensation and not starting against going somewhere else, starting, and not being compensated.

                Remember, recruiting and transferring is what makes college sports different than anything else.

                Also, if the NCAA goes away, so does the scholarship limits. That means that Georgia will recruit and pay students just so they will not play somewhere else such as occurred in the 1950’s.Report

  2. Chip Daniels says:

    LF5:
    “Republicans fell into the trap set by the left and allowed them to make the bill into something that it’s not.”

    Oh, FFS.Report

  3. InMD says:

    LF4 is another one of these dumb points that sounds good only if you don’t think about the actual issues in play. The idea of NCAA sports as this huge money-maker exploiting its players only has any merit if the conversation is limited to D1 mens football and basketball, which are used as free farm leagues for the NFL and NBA. Contra the authors point, for the vast majority of college athletes in D3 and D2 not to mention every sport in D1 other than the aforementioned free or discounted tuition and room and board is an excellent trade-off. Those 2 big sports are what support the other programs for both sexes. Not to mention the idea that these are huge profit-making endeavors even for big schools gets a lot more complicated the more you dig into endowments, state funding, etc.

    Now maybe the stars in the star programs should be allowed to sell their names and endorsements. I sympathize with the side that says paternalistic restrictions like that are wrong in principle. But before doing so you’d really need to dig into how if would impact college athletics writ large. There’s a lot more going on than ‘tHeY ShOuLD jUsT PaY DUH OLD WhITE mEN bAd.’Report

    • InMD in reply to InMD says:

      Just to add even a big football program is going to have 100+ people on the roster. Only a handful of them have any prospects of going pro or becoming famous enough in college that anyone would pay them for anything. Again, just want to throw some cold water on the idea that this is somehow a bad deal for most athletes. Whatever the policy is it needs to be crafted with them in mind moreso than the star prospects and players at top schools with all the sleazy money floating around them.Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to InMD says:

        Just to add even a big football program is going to have 100+ people on the roster. Only a handful of them have any prospects of going pro or becoming famous enough in college that anyone would pay them for anything.

        I suppose tuition, fees, room and board are reasonable pay for sparring partners. Although I’d throw in some walking around cash, so they could see an occasional movie and have a beer or two on occasion.Report

        • InMD in reply to Michael Cain says:

          Fair enough. But if that’s the case at least we’re having a real conversation and not just expressing a sentiment.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Michael Cain says:

          I think part of the issue is that ANY benefit offered beyond the “allowed” can get folks in trouble. Athletes and schools have gotten in trouble for buying plane tickets so kids can goto family funerals and the like.

          So alongside the question of should schools HAVE to pay players is whether they should be ALLOWED to compensate them if they want to. Right now, they can’t.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to InMD says:

        I think one big issue is that even though only a handful of D1 athletes have a chance of going pro, every D1 athlete is basically spending their time more like a pro or semi-pro athlete rather than a student. So they tend not to do much in the way of actual studying from what I understand but practice, practice, and practice.Report

        • InMD in reply to LeeEsq says:

          I question whether that’s true for every D1 athlete outside of the 2 big sports. I mean, is someone no one has heard of on University of Alabama’s rowing team really being pushed in such a way (not to mention given a pass on academics) that calls the whole student athlete thing into question? I guess I’m open to evidence but it seems really unlikely.Report

          • LeeEsq in reply to InMD says:

            I think most advocates who are arguing for student-athlete pay really mean D1 football and basketball. That’s nearly the only sports that come up in these conversations. Other sports seem to be more of a whatboutery thing.

            I’m wary of allowing D1 football and basketball to make massive amounts of money, including big salaries for the coaches and nothing for the professional in all but name athletes. Not one SC Justice said anything in defense of the NCAA. That’s how indefensible the current system is.Report

            • InMD in reply to LeeEsq says:

              Sure. But again that’s what gets to the two practical questions that need to be answered. Can they be compensated without destroying the subsidy? If not, does the ethical case for compensation outweigh the ethical case for the subsidy?

              I believe some would say it’s a deontoligical versus consequentialist debate.Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to InMD says:

                The subsidy is in the billions. I think diverting at least something to cash for the players is possible with the amount of moeny we are talking about.Report

          • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

            Depends on the school. The Varsity Blues scandal did show that there is value in weird, money-losing prestige sports for college admissions.Report

      • superdestroyer in reply to InMD says:

        Division I teams have 85 scholarship players including red shirts. Compared to non-revenue sports that are generally partial scholarships or walk-ons.

        Everyone needs to remember that most schools lose money on their athletic programs and tax their students with athletic fees to keep the sports going. No university transfer money from the athletic department to the rest of the University.Report

        • My public undergraduate school is one of a literal handful of big-time football schools where the athletic department is a separate legal entity and state law does not allow transfers of money from the academic side (or from the state government more broadly). The AD pays the tuition and fees part of the scholarship to the academic side. There is no general athletic fee. The academic side retains ownership of the stadium, the AD operates it (and the AD is responsible for ongoing capital and maintenance expenses).

          But that sort of arrangement is, as you say, vanishingly rare.Report

          • superdestroyer in reply to Michael Cain says:

            Less thann 30 schools take no subsidy. Even powerhouses like the Big Ten take the IT/facility support without payment from the university. However, for the big time programs to schedule 7 or 8 home football games and 20 home basketball games, other schools have to lose millions. Being a cupcake school costs millions in student service fess and other transfer to the athletic department. In total, college sports is a huge money loser just like the Olympics are a money loser.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

      So, how would it impact college sports writ large?Report

      • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Well, this is where I admit my lack of deep expertise and say I don’t know! But it’s the issue proponents of paying the players need to wrestle with to persuade me. Though I very much am persuade-able.

        What I’d hate to see is paying the mens basketball and football players result in the disbanding of all of the other athletics and depletion of funds for educational programs they subsidize. That money that would go to the players has to come from somewhere.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

          The logic here seems to be “This worthy endeavor is only possible due to the cash we make from this other unjust endeavor”.

          First, we should probably explore whether this situation would be changed if the unjust endeavor were made more just.

          For example, if college athletes were free to sign endorsement deals, would the college receive less money, and be unable to fund smaller sports? How?Report

          • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            Well as I said, I find it hard to find a good reason not to allow those handful of players who could make money with endorsements to do so, even if I am leery of it for the reason below.

            But my point is that whether the system is just or not depends on the individual athlete involved. We’re having this conversation as though every one of them is a Heisman candidate slated to go in the top 10 of the NFL draft. Maybe the system is unjust to that guy who could already be making millions. But from the perspective of the marginal ST player who is only at university because of an athletics scholarship (to say nothing of the sprinter on the womens track team) it’s a hell of an opportunity.

            I believe that if the decision was all players now get profit share those latter two opportunities probably go away. Even with the endorsement only idea, you may run into similar outcomes if the result is a sort of NCAA free agency because what you can make is going to be closely related to where you play. That in itself could kill programs at certain schools and may even change the draw of the sport in important unanticipated ways, where a handful of top programs get even richer and the rest die out.

            Now as I said, that’s a worst case scenario, but advocates of the change need to explain to me why it won’t go down that way. Again, I remain open to persuasion. But if I wanted to be snarky (which I don’t) I’d ask why people care so much about the guys who are going to be rich athletes in the pros anyway and so little for the kid from the wrong side of the tracks who got a shot at a free education.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

      That’s why I suggested that athletes not get paid, per se, but perhaps get a percentage put into a trust. Not every program makes money, so not every program has the ability to pay it’s athletes, but those that make bank could. They should at least be permitted the option of doing so.

      But nothing should stop an athlete from making money off of their notoriety.Report

      • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        And hey maybe that’s a workable solution. But that isn’t what L4 is saying, hence my comment.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

          I didn’t read the link, just the excerpted portion, and I was riffing off this:

          Honestly, how bitter and lost and uncharitable do you have to be to demand that the people entertaining you be denied a portion of the funds they themselves and their efforts generated for you to enjoy it?

          To me, that leaves open a variety of compensation options, so I ran with it a bit.Report

      • superdestroyer in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        But if one gets trust one by going to Ohio State but not Illinois, the Ohio State not only keeps getting the good recruits but keep unwanted players from transferring somewhere else.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to superdestroyer says:

          So?Report

          • superdestroyer in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            When one does not understand how a sport league works, then why is one interested in college sports. When the football players at Northwestern tried to organized a football players union, a federal judge ruled that the players could not union since Northwestern was in a league/conference and had to follow the procedures of the conference. A conference where one team dominates everything is not a very valuable item versus a conference where all the schools compete.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to superdestroyer says:

              My interest is not in the sports, it’s in the ability for a person to enjoy the financial benefits of their work.

              So let me lay it out for you. I don’t care if a school pays athletes or not, and I can see why paying athletes could be fraught, so even if it was permitted, I would expect constraints so as to keep things fair. I mean, personally I don’t care if school A can afford to pay and school B can not, but I can understand if the schools do, or the conferences do, but honestly that should be up to the members of the conference, not the NCAA.

              I object to student athletes not being permitted to profit from their personal notoriety. If a given athlete has enough public recognition that someone feels like an endorsement deal is valuable, the student should be free to pursue that deal. The fact that the school/conference/NCAA is willing to interfere in that strikes me as unreasonable as if my employer prevented me from operating a business that does not compete with them.

              Just to clarify, when I was in college, some of my classmates started a business, and made a lot of money on the side while in school. No one from the school tried to stop them.Report

              • Along these lines, in the top NCAA sports the head coach makes a couple of orders of magnitude more money than the “compensation” given to the best athlete. In the pro versions of those sports, the head coach is an order of magnitude below what the best athletes get.Report

              • College coaches can make extra money from the company that makes their players’ shoes; the players don’t get a cent of this, of course.

                It’s also weird to be paid by a vendor; I can imagine my employer’s reaction if Xerox were paying office administrators to promote their copiers, and it would include the phrase “terminated for cause”.Report

              • superdestroyer in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                If the value of the cable networks, the TV contracts, and everything goes down due to very limited copetition and most schools being totally non-compentative, then the financial benefits does down.

                I never understand people who want to destroy the non-revenue sports, womens sports, and the entire athletic departments at the other five conferences so that the starters at Alabama and Ohio State can get paid. That is an extremely shortsighted view of college sports.

                Also, the students only have value because they are part of a winning team and the wining team depends upon recruiting. What happens when a players value goes down due to being benched. How does a school manage a player that was promised huge NIL money and then loses the value due to a coach’s decision.

                NIL rights is just an invitation for the boosters at a few schools to concentrate all of the best players.

                If NIL rights are concentrated at a few schools and many schools drop sports, then the value of March Madness ends and the entire NIL rights becomes almost worthless.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to superdestroyer says:

                You keep hammering the point that I don’t care about (compensation) and ignoring the point I do (external contracts), so I’m not sure why we are still talking.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to InMD says:

      This is when Title IX makes things tricky. Most college athletic teams don’t make revenue. The student-athletes are actual student athletes who are doing real studies in real majors. We do have these handful of revenue sports that make big bucks. The student-athletes in these sports tend not to do much in the way of actual studying but devote most of their time to football or basketball practice. They are professional athletes in all but name.

      One suggested solution is to pay all student-athletes something like the minimal wage. This seems fair and elegant on paper but the D1 football and basketball players can point out that they are generating hundreds of millions or even billions in revenue and need and should be paid accordingly.

      Another issue is that there are a non-trivial number of people without a stake in this fight where the illusion of the student-athlete is really very important even if the reality is totally different. The idea of university teams just merely being affiliated with the university but otherwise basically pro-teams where the players are 18 to 21 years old would not be the same thing to them.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD says:

      Discounted tuition is a good deal if you graduate. I’d like to see more support for that, e.g. if a player gets hurt playing for his school, he keeps his scholarship, or > 4 years of scholarship if that’s what’s needed.Report

      • superdestroyer in reply to Mike Schilling says:

        The number of full athletic scholarships are capped. One is arguing that the athletic department keep paying for a former athlete to attend school while no longer being an athlete. That is workable but most of the athletes are admitted under lower standards, are given tutoring and first in line registration for classes, and usually crowd into worthless degrees such as sociology at Auburn or University studies at Iowa.

        Without the support of the athletic department, few of the football or men’s basketball team would ever graduate or even be admitted.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

      It is often taken as a given that these athletic departments lose money and that even basketball and football isn’t profitable at many schools. But… why?

      I’m not saying that ISN’T the case… but I’d like to look in the books and see why it seems impossible to run these enterprises profitably even with all the money floating around. Open up the books.Report

      • JS in reply to Kazzy says:

        IIRC, studies found a handful of schools DO profit, but most are a net drag on the school.

        Now I have no idea where the money flows. Of course some of that money is alumni, and I think that’s even less closely tracked..

        I once toured the Texas A&M sports facilities, and I will state someone paid a lot of money — not just for equipment. IIRC, the locker room was not exactly metal and concrete, but quite a bit nicer than my kitchen.

        Of course my local community college doesn’t even HAVE a sports program because, about 35 years ago, they were caught funneling money from the primary budget to athletics (when their charter specifically stated the athletics program had to be self-supporting off it’s own fees. All students paid those fees, but it apparently wasn’t enough for what they wanted to do and the student body wasn’t supportive of raising fees further for stuff most didn’t use. This despite quite a nice setup already). Of course right after that, the next year they were audited again due to the grounds keeping costs rising over a million a year- strangely pretty much exactly how much they’d been caught diverting in previous years.

        The entire board and upper admin resigned, and the charter was fully amended barring any sort of intercollegiate sports. They have all sorts of sports classes, they have a volleyball league and a baseball league — but it’s all students from the same (albeit it large, with about five campuses) college.

        But that was a rather formative experience (I was about 15 when this hit the papers, and my best friend’s dad was one of the people who was involved in the audit — he was part of a local concerned citizen’s group, and used the school charter and state sunshine laws to force them to open their books to audit by their group). They had a program they swore was self-supporting, and it was…not. And they went through massive efforts to hide the truth.

        And it wasn’t even like their football or basketball or baseball team was some local big thing. Everyone here tends to pick one of the state schools to root for, or failing that there’s a big 4 year school with a decent sports program. This wasn’t some scrappy 2-year college with a rabid local fanbase. It was just a large community college that most of the locals were surprised to hear had a football team.Report