The Two Year Chit: A Filibuster Suggestion

Burt Likko

Pseudonymous Portlander. Pursuer of happiness. Bon vivant. Homebrewer. Atheist. Recovering Republican. Recovering Catholic. Recovering divorcé. Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of Ordinary Times. Relapsed Lawyer, admitted to practice law (under his real name) in California and Oregon. There's a Twitter account at @burtlikko, but not used for posting on the general feed anymore. House Likko's Words: Scite Verum. Colite Iusticia. Vivere Con Gaudium.

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45 Responses

  1. Michael Cain says:

    Or we could just go back to a single-track Senate: only one major motion open on the floor at a time. Then the filibuster is expensive. The minority has to be willing to block all bills, not just selected ones. Gulf Coast hurricane? Sorry, no emergency funds, the minority thinks that’s a price worth paying to block HR1. Lockheed-Martin’s going to shut down F-35 production because they haven’t been paid? Well, not funding a wall along the Mexican border is worth it. Fourth of July recess? No, there’s an open motion on the floor that has to be dealt with.Report

    • InMD in reply to Michael Cain says:

      To me this is the simpler and better approach. The problem with the filibuster isn’t that it exists it’s that current rules allowing for other business (which I believe dates to the 60s) make the tactic cost-free. I’m totally fine with the concept as long as it means the person doing has to be up there reading the metaphorical phone book at 3AM, sacrificing other priorities, etc.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

        I’d actually want both rules put back in place: single-track Senate (which I wasn’t aware was a thing) and the standing filibuster.

        What we have now isn’t the filibuster. It is something different… something cost-free. Which it shouldn’t be.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    The problem is that the filibuster isn’t a problem. It’s a solution.

    By removing the filibuster (or tweaking/changing it), you’re not touching the problem that the filibuster solves.Report

    • North in reply to Jaybird says:

      What is the problem the filibuster solves again? That elected majorities are barred from having the power to implement policy so they have to either find extra-legislative measures to do so (the courts, executive authority, etc) or else accept that they’re helpless and will be abandoned in disgust by their constituents
      in the next electoral cycle when they fail to address their needs?
      Hmm no that seems like a problem the filibuster causes; at least the modern Mitch McConnell version of it which is, admissibly, a very new interpretation of the filibuster; not one it solves.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to North says:

        The filibuster solves the problem of “but I don’t want to pass this!”

        Oh, jeez. I totally would have passed this legislation. I care very deeply! But, you know… that dang old filibuster!Report

        • North in reply to Jaybird says:

          “I don’t want to pass the legislation!”
          Then vote against it.
          “I don’t want to be seen voting against it!”
          Yeah no sympathy buddy.Report

      • Pinky in reply to North says:

        I’d say the filibuster solves the problem of how to block legislation without wide support. Then again, I like the way you put it in your first paragraph, if you add in one additional “or else”, which is to promote legislation that 60 Senators would support. Historically, Senators have supported legislation due to personal conviction, pressure, or compromise. A longer discussion could be about the state of all three of those things in the Senate.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

          “I’d say the filibuster solves the problem of how to block legislation without wide support.”

          Can you clarify: Do “without wide support” apply to the legislation or the efforts to block it?Report

        • North in reply to Pinky says:

          The history of the modern filibuster, as reinterpreted by Mitch and then necessarily reciprocated by the Dems, is that the filibuster blocks everything except what can be tucked into reconciliation. The definition of legislation without “wide support” encompasses all substantive legislation.

          The current filibuster, which dates back to the late aughts, has a record that the Democrats cannot get to 60, and that Republicans don’t even try.

          And then everyone mewls in confusion “why oh why are all these workarounds to legislation springing up all over the place?”Report

        • Pinky in reply to Pinky says:

          Kazzy and North – I could be wrong in my thinking about this. Was there a significant strengthening of the filibuster in recent years?Report

          • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

            There have been significant changes. Below is Yglesias giving a history (also editorializing of course since it’s a blog). I don’t actually agree with his final conclusion but I found it helpful and I consider him someone who gives fair takes.

            https://www.slowboring.com/p/filibusterReport

            • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

              I read the article, and as he says, “Since the 1970s, there’s been a steady dance of minorities using the filibuster more widely and majorities restricting the circumstances in which it’s allowed.” But that doesn’t correspond to any structural change, as far as I know. We’ve had 40+ years of movement on the margins.

              That takes me back to my original point. There’s no structural reason a piece of legislation can’t get through the Senate if it’s got wide support. If you want legislation passed, you can do it the old way: write legislation that Senators will pass.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                The point he’s making is that over the last 50 years and particularly the last ~15 that rule changes have resulted in it becoming far more common than in most of the country’s history. I guess we could debate whether the rules are really ‘structural’ but they certainly create incentives for behavior and favor party leaders over rank and file.

                Now I’m not on the ‘abolish the filibuster’ side but I think he has a point. Yes, a bipartisan coalition is certainly still capable of prevailing in a cloture vote. However IMO the rareness of that in recent history and the spike in votes on cloture speaks for itself.Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                No, he’s not saying rule changes. He’s saying custom. Yglesias is clear on that. He begins his bullet points with the 1970’s and then only talks about patterns of conduct, not rule changes. As I said, this isn’t my area of expertise; there may be significant rule changes that he doesn’t bother to name. The story he tells is of “a legislative tactic of choice”, of “a mix of tactical reasons”, of “standard practice”. Since my point is that well-crafted legislation smartly pushed through wouldn’t be affected by the filibuster, this is an important distinction.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                I believe the two critical rule changes were (i) the ‘dual tracking’ change in the 70s and (ii) the 2013 ‘nuclear option’ change by Harry Reid in 2013. I’m outside of my expertise here as well but I understand these to be official changes to the rules in how the Senate operates, not just changes in practice/custom.Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                It’s my understanding that both those changes diluted the power of the filibuster. If so, they go against your position.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                My position (as I said above to Michael) is that, whatever the intent, the results of the rule changes have been to make it less costly to filibuster. This allows it to loom as a threat no one ever actually has to make good on and the new customs reflect that.

                Now, maybe the belief in the 70s was that they were diluting something that was rarely needed due to past comity. What they actually did was strengthen it because it no longer requires sacrifice to invoke. The ‘nuclear option’ and the politics surrounding it has served to entrench it as a weapon to be picked up against routine legislation.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Pinky says:

                And this leaves me wondering about Yglesias. He starts this article with –

                “Requiring laws to get 60 votes to pass the US Senate is a dumb idea.

                “It’s also much more ahistorical than most Senators seem to understand. No legislature works this way. It ought to be changed….”

                But the truth seems to be (I’m no expert) that Senate rules used to give way more power to the filibuster. Now, it’s possible to make an argument like “this should be changed despite the history” or even “this should be changed and is unrelated to the history”, but the story is structured as if he’s saying “this should be changed because of the history”. Either: I’m misunderstanding this, or the history of the US Senate rules is trending away from the power of the filibuster. If so, how can he say the filibuster is dumb, ahistorical, and should be changed? Those three things can’t be true at once. You can treat it as a modern aberration that needs to be fixed, or as a historical aberration that needs to be fixed. Or you could argue that history aside, it needs to be fixed. I mean, seriously, is this thing an Escher painting?

                ETA: I see you commented while I was writing my comment. I would put things differently if I’d read your comment first. But still, I don’t see a structural explanation why the change in the law in the 1970’s made the filibuster less costly. Without that, the position falls.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                The structural explanation is that pre-70s rule change a filibuster stopped all Senate business. In a certain sense I suppose you’re right that it was more powerful in terms of how disruptive it was. The cost of that was that the Senator filibustering had to actually stand up there talking until the bill was either tabled or there was a vote for cloture.* Now that they can dual track the cost is greatly diminished which has had the consequence of making it way more common. The Senator sits up there, BSes for the morning, then they move on to other things in the afternoon.

                Your final point is why I part ways with Yglesias on his conclusion. I think the best answer is to eliminate dual tracking. That way the filibuster stays as a last resort against 51-49 votes to do something with questionable support or that a Senator believes is beyond the pale on principle. However it goes away for what should be routine Senate business.

                *This is my understanding, one of our resident parliamentarians can and should feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                “There’s no structural reason a piece of legislation can’t get through the Senate if it’s got wide support.”
                A piece of legislation could have the support of 59 Senators — and with them a vast majority of Americans — and still be blocked by the filibuster. Would you consider such a bill to not have wide support?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                I don’t consider a bill to have wide support if it can’t get past the 60-vote hurdle. The particular number is bound to be arbitrary, of course. There are some things the Senate can do with 51 votes, other things it can’t do with 66. But I don’t consider 60 to be wildly outside the realm of reason.

                I don’t want to go on a tangent, but in a representative system, the electorate’s role is finished after the election. The Senate in particular is designed to be an obstacle to the immediate will of the people.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Pinky says:

                I don’t consider a bill to have wide support if it can’t get past the 60-vote hurdle.

                Historically, of course, nothing was considered in isolation. Compromise and trading were rampant. It wasn’t “A minimum wage is morally wrong,” it was “I’ll vote for the minimum wage if another Army division is stationed in Alabama.”

                That traditional bargaining was insufficient in the 1960s when the Dixiecrats decided that further civil rights legislation was morally wrong and there were no sticks/carrots sufficient to change their minds. (At that time, 67 votes were necessary to break the filibuster. But the rules could be changed by a smaller majority.)

                Trading didn’t all end immediately of course. In a policy area where more of my interest falls, the DOE was charged with developing a spent nuclear fuel waste storage plan. The first cut at the problem called for a large repository east of the Mississippi, where most of the reactors were, and a small one in the West where there were a small number. For some years this was a bargaining chip: I’ll vote for your bill if it also removes my state from the list of possible sites. Of 20-some possible sites identified by the DOE, all but one were eliminated by political trading, with the last two beside Yucca Mountain eliminated in a 1988 budget reconciliation bill. The clause was added in conference committee, which under the rules at the time could only be voted up or down without debate in the House and the Senate. When the committee chair was asked by a reporter what had happened in that particular closed session, the chair replied, “We screwed Nevada.” And left us in the position we are in today, where only one site can be considered, but can’t be put into actual operation without supermajorities willing to take the steps needed to build a 200-mile rail spur.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Michael Cain says:

                Yeah. A lot of the stuff that used to be called “pork” was really a way to get people on board.

                I mean, let’s face it. If there’s a new kind of military plane that needs to be built and the new kind of plane need a particular component that only two states have the capacity to build, well, the contract is going to go to the company in one of those two states.

                East Carolina is going to want it and West Dakota is going to want it and they’re both going to credibly threaten to vote no if they don’t get it.

                So you give it to one and you fund shrimp treadmill research in the other and, hurray, you’ve got two yes votes now.

                And now you’ve got people screaming about shrimp treadmill research but, seriously, people shouldn’t see that as funding shrimp treadmill research, but funding that factory that can make that part that that military plane uses.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                I kind of miss the days of shrimp treadmill research. Remember when that ‘bridge to nowhere’ in Alaska was this big talking point? And people didn’t think it was completely ridiculous to say that there was some principle of fiscal conservatism involved?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain says:

                In an earlier comment I listed conviction, pressure, and compromise as three motivators for Senators. I think the scale is skewed toward conviction these days. At least, if you measure conviction by consistency, which is debatable. Compromise is definitely weak right now. Compromise doesn’t have to be big spending projects, either. You’d think with the much longer legislation we’re seeing, people could figure out a way to give more Senators something they want. As for pressure, that can encourage or discourage votes. Pressure from the voters, or the persuadable portion of the voters, or from the party or “special interests” (which aren’t necessarily bad). It’s weird to think of politicians as having strong beliefs, so maybe party pressure is the dominant force today. But still, the parties are only as strong in the Senate as the Senators allow them to be.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                “… my point is that well-crafted legislation smartly pushed through wouldn’t be affected by the filibuster…”

                It was hard for find hard data but there is a chart in this article that shows the increase in cloture votes and their results, which tracks with the use of the filibuster and it’s success.

                The trend is clear: much more filibustering recently.

                So, there are two likely forces at work, possibly working in tandem:
                1. Senators are using the filibuster nowadays in scenarios they wouldn’t have in the past
                2. Legislation is less well-crafted and less smartly pushed through.

                Is it your position — in part or in whole — that #2 is the primary driver behind the increase in cloture votes? That the increase is less due to structural or tactical changes but rather the result of less effective writing and advocacy?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                I wouldn’t consider my blather to be a “position” on this one. It’s more that I see no structural reason why legislation can’t be pushed through anymore, and that makes me suspect (a) that tactics, crafting, and advocacy (which we could collectively call “legislative skill”) are falling short, and thus (b) that if the issue isn’t structural, the solution may not be structural. I’d need to see a full presentation in support of InMD’s position that a structural flaw was introduced 40+ years ago but only blossomed in the past 10. And it’s possible that the best solution to a non-structural problem is a structural change. I just can’t shake the feeling that better legislative skill could overcome any of the above.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Pinky says:

                I’ll go with my usual example. There is a SCOTUS decision that says under current law not only can greenhouse gases be regulated, they must be regulated. Pretty much every piece of science done by the national labs says that it needs to be done now. The current state of technology provides no solutions beyond drastic reductions in emissions. One party agrees with the law and the science. The other party simply says SCOTUS and the scientists are wrong. Suggest some clever needle-threading that can get 60 votes.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain says:

                Well, in your example, you declare that you’re more moral and more intelligent than I am, so I’m going to make sure you never get anything you want, and when we take over the Senate I’m going to personally see to it that your new parking space is in Alexandria. Care to come back to the table offering something?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                So… you consider the system to be working well when one side’s position can be, “My 40 friends and I don’t give a shit what the law says. So grease our wheels or nothing happens”?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                Again, if you want to fight, we’ll fight. Another failure. Round Two is over.

                OK, this time we’ll switch sides, and I’ll go first. “Hey Ted, how do you feel about power grids?”Report

              • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain says:

                A few hints:

                – Natural gas is cleaner than coal, and nuclear is cleaner than any fossil fuel.
                – Republicans hate China, which happens to be the world’s biggest polluter.
                – As a federalist, I’m far more opposed to a national minimum wage hike than 50 state hikes.
                – We’d all be better off if Trump wasn’t in the news.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Pinky says:

                Do Republicans hate China because it is the world’s biggest polluter? Or is that merely a convenient bit of trivia?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko says:

                Who cares? Do you want to talk philosophy, or make a deal?

                ETA: If you hate the other guy because he’s cheating, then yes, the fact that he’s cheating on pollution is part of why you hate him.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Pinky says:

                No, not hints. Offer me a plan that you think will peel away a significant number of Senate Dems. I will note that Biden’s proposals (as distinct from the original Green New Deal) includes natural gas as a bridge fuel and nuclear.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Michael Cain says:

                “The Give Police Departments More Money And Green New Deal Act”.

                What this act would do is some green stuff but it would also give police departments more money.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain says:

                Is this a second phase to your negotiating strategy? So far we’ve got insult your opposite, then demand he come up with a solution to your problem.Report

              • InMD in reply to Burt Likko says:

                I call foul on this comment. The developing world’s (and China’s particularly) outsized contribution to pollution is critical to understanding the international politics of the issue, including the US stance. Obviously their rejoinder is ‘the West got to do it first and you have no right to play moral scold while we try to lift our people out of poverty.’

                You’re also basically conceding Pinky’s entire argument which seems like the opposite of what you were going for.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                It does seem that the “two-track procedure” was a pretty dramatic structural change.

                I realized I left the link out of my prior comment (apologies) but here is probably an even better chart, per Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_in_the_United_States_Senate#The_two-track_system,_60-vote_rule_and_rise_of_the_routine_filibuster_(1970_onward)

                It also outlines a few other, smaller structural changes (e.g., shifting from 2/3s of present Senators to 3/5 of sworn Senators; removing the requirement that the filibuster be speaking on the floor).

                All of this made it both easier and less costly to invoke a filibuster. As a result, most legislation requires 60 votes to pass.

                Maybe this system is better than previous systems. Maybe not. Arguments could be made in either direction. But to simply say, “Well, the filibuster wasn’t a big issue before and if it is an issue now, it is because folks aren’t trying hard enough,” simply ignores the way in which “before” and “now” are different. Even if the change wasn’t overnight, there were indeed changes and as folks learned the new rules of the new system, their behavior changed. It is pretty evident right there in the chart.Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                One of the interesting aspects (and where the Yglesias piece sees but doesn’t make a case for causation) is the move to giant omnibus legislation. On its face you’d think big legislation would offer a lot of venues for compromise.

                I speculate that what’s actually happening is a combination of ‘hide the ball’ and acceptance that each Congress only has one or two swings at legislation that will then need go be squeezed through reconciliation.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                The two-track reform idea does make sense, as far as I can tell. More sense than the more common proposals.Report

      • Koz in reply to North says:

        What is the problem the filibuster solves again?

        That important legislation is supposed to be moved by consensus, not merely raw majoritarianism.

        I’m not a historian of the Senate but my impression of it is that the Senate has always been that way, or at the very least has thought of itself that way. So that, even when the rules or the application of the filibuster was much different, the Senate was always more conservative in the prudential sense.

        Among other things, the idea of partisanship as we understand it now, was much weaker before. Ie, every Senator was his own Manchin or Sinema.Report

  3. Saul Degraw says:

    Manchin is open to bringing back the old school make them talk filibuster https://www.vox.com/2021/3/7/22318145/joe-manchin-filibuster-reformReport

  4. Koz says:

    I’m hesitant. It seems more likely than not to me that Republicans will re-take the Senate in the 2022 midterms (and frankly I think they have a good shot at re-taking the House).

    The GOP is probably somewhere between 60-40 and 70-30 to reclaim control of the Senate in the 2022 cycle. But probably not by that much. Otoh, they are almost a lead pipe cinch to regain the House, and probably with a healthy margin besides.Report