Desperate Times Call For Disparate Measures

Kristin Devine

Kristin has humbly retired as Ordinary Times' friendly neighborhood political whipping girl to focus on culture and gender issues. She lives in a wildlife refuge in rural Washington state with too many children and way too many animals. There's also a blog which most people would very much disapprove of https://atomicfeminist.com/

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42 Responses

  1. Doctor Jay says:

    I recall the other post. I think my remark was that the family would most likely reopen another restaurant once the all clear was sounded, and for now they are hunkering down. This seems like a pretty good idea.

    I am good with assistance for all the workers who are out of a job. I am good with some assistance to the family for reopening. Right now, there are bills in Congress to do exactly that, and they are hung up over negotiations with the Senate.

    The end may be in sight, but it’s still a long slog to get there. Hang in there.Report

  2. Philip H says:

    You and I agree here (shocked I’m sure).

    But what are the next steps? In 2017 we as a nation decided to forgo a ton of tax revenue that could have been leveraged to offset this. Tax revenue we were all assured would be made up in economic growth that never occurred. And the people that did that are the same people who are sitting on relief bills designed to help your restaurants because they want to shield big companies like Tyson from the liability of failing to cope with outbreaks (which free market theory would suggest they shouldn’t be shielded from). As long as those folks hold sway (and they may after 20 January), we can’t get there from here.

    So what do we do?Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

      The virus has become only slightly less common than air and there’s a strong argument that it should be in “acts of god” territory.

      Allowing everyone-who-got-sick (which rounds to everyone) to sue everyone-with-deep-pockets (which rounds to business) seems to be more an effort to enrich the trial lawyers than the way a free market should function.

      Even Tyson, the poster child for infecting workers at work, is also the poster child for a company that we wanted to stay open assuming we want people to eat.Report

      • greginak in reply to Dark Matter says:

        We want people to eat and we want workers to be treated safely. Two goals at least. What we don’t want is businesses to be free to be careless with the health of their workers. Or, you know, to have managers betting on how many disposable workers will get sick. Hey i’m not judging, that just seems a wee bit off.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to greginak says:

          We want people to eat and we want workers to be treated safely. Two goals at least.

          What do you want to happen when those two goals conflict and you have to pick one?

          For example, if we have a virus with (at that time) unknown abilities that we (at that time) can’t test for and (at that time) don’t know who is at risk and (at that time) safety equipment was (at that time) either not easily available or even (at that time) unclear as to what was needed?

          Safety-to-workers says you close the business and send people home because of those unknowns. That also means massive disruption to the food chain.Report

          • greginak in reply to Dark Matter says:

            No you work to achieve as much as is critical of both goals as is possible. Either/or is often a terrible way to figure out the path. Both eating and safety are good things we want to maximize. Indeed the hard part about goals is that good goals ( and values) often conflict. So we need to identify what is critical and what is nice but less important in all areas and aim to maximize the critical.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to greginak says:

              That’s fine, but I’d expect the lawsuits against the businesses are more “were workers endangered/killed” and not “were the tradeoffs sensible”.

              I am not a lawyer, but I expect legally the acceptable number of dead workers is zero. That the laws were written expecting worker safety to be maximized. If that’s not what we expect then we should probably change the laws, i.e. maybe not let companies be sued if they made tradeoffs.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Being able to file a lawsuit isn’t the same as being able to be victorious.

                In order for the plaintiffs to prevail, there has to be some sort of finding of negligence or failure to take reasonable precautions.

                These are rightly questions for juries to determine, not the Senate Majority Leader.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                They kept businesses open during a pandemic while companies that didn’t want to endanger their workers closed. As was easily foreseeable, their workers were infected.

                How can that NOT be negligence? Do worker safety laws have exclusions for “essential workers”?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Your argument would be a great defense- that the company took all reasonable precautions while remaining open per government directive.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                And maybe the gov doesn’t want obeying it’s directives to be “a good defence” to hundreds of thousands of potential lawsuits where losing even one of them might “send a message that their behaviour is unacceptable”.

                Maybe the Senate Majority Leader not only doesn’t want but shouldn’t want thousands of juries double guessing him and playing arm chair quarterback with public policy.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                It is a relief then, that our system of laws and jurisprudence privilege the wisdom of thousands of juries over the will of the Senate Majority Leader.Report

  3. Jaybird says:

    If the government says “shutter your doors” for a month or so, then that’s a taking. I have zero, absolutely *ZERO*, problem with paying the business owner a month’s income for shutting down. I have zero problem with telling the bank “hey, we bailed your asses out a dozen times over the years, you can miss a payment or two from these guys and not write it down.”

    The failure to do this will come across as Injustice (with a capital “I”) and it will result in some serious “turnabout is fair play”ism.

    That current Portland Eviction saga? It’s a tip of an iceberg. I am thinking that it’d be a bad idea to engage in *ANY* evictions until the vaccine is common. It’s a recipe for society in general to see laws as suggestions.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

      Mitch McConnell disagrees with you on all points.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

      I am thinking that it’d be a bad idea to engage in *ANY* evictions until the vaccine is common.

      Does that mean landlords don’t need to make mortgage payments?

      My wife was laid off because of the virus, does that mean I don’t need to make mortgage payments? Education payments? Are we going to insist that the banks still lend money?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Dark Matter says:

        I would be fine with landlords not needing to make mortgage payments.

        “PRESS PAUSE” and so on.

        My wife was laid off because of the virus, does that mean I don’t need to make mortgage payments? Education payments? Are we going to insist that the banks still lend money?

        “PRESS PAUSE”.

        The payments you get from the government should cover food and netflix while you’re locked inside.

        Press pause.

        And if they say “you have to shutter your doors but still make your payments”, well, our tax dollars pay for a lot of things, including lampposts.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

          The payments you get from the government should cover food and netflix while you’re locked inside.

          Oh, we’re good. Her unemployment and stim money was a lot more than her income. With reduced spending we’re seriously cash flow positive from all this.

          I will pocket the extra cash, but it does seem weird the gov seems insistent on giving us more.

          In terms of ethics and intensions, it’s fine to say “the gov will pay for you to shutter your doors if they’re making you do that”.

          However I have serious doubts about the gov’s ability to tell the difference between “shuttered doors” and “shuttered doors because the gov did something” and even “didn’t shutter doors but is politically powerful”.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

      “The failure to do this will come across as Injustice (with a capital “I”) and it will result in some serious “turnabout is fair play”ism.”

      I mean, I keep saying this, but it really seems to me that the most iconic failure of the American government during all this was that Donald F’in Trump said “let’s just write everyone a check” and the biggest opponent of that idea was a Democrat.Report

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    These high concept political ideologies like socialism and libertarianism tend to fracture when faced with the chaotic nature of real world events.

    In the face of shifting human behavior and idiosyncrasies, a planned economy can’t adapt. And in the face of the need for sudden coordinated action, a small and limited government can’t respond.

    Which is why almost all governments throughout history and across geography have used some form of mixed economy, where the delivery of some items is left to the vagaries of market forces, while others are delivered through regulated markets, while some others are just delivered directly by government itself.Report

    • greginak in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      If only there were any evidence of mixed economies working and states trying to take the best of gov/free market approaches, well then, it wouldn’t matter at all to the various ideologues who insist on purity.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to greginak says:

        Do those mixed economies have notable monoculture enforcement tools like language laws?Report

        • greginak in reply to Jaybird says:

          Some do, some don’t. There are plenty of different examples. The Swiss have multiple languages. You want to find a group of people competing to tell you how many languages they each speak find some Swedes.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to greginak says:

            “The Swiss have multiple languages”

            If I googled “Swiss Language Laws”, would I find out whether the Swiss have Language Laws?

            Because, if I did, and if it turned out that they did have language laws, we’d be in a weird place where we’re talking about how it’d be nice for us to be more like other countries without noticing what other countries are actually like.

            (This is also something that happened during the EpiPen debates. We argued for a more European Medical System while arguing for keeping the FDA to stay like the FDA and not be more like the EMA. It’s weird.)Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

              Work permits: Switzerland introduces new rules for language proficiency certificates

              …While C permit applicants have been subject to language requirements in the past the 2019 law harmonized (minimum) language requirements throughout Switzerland for C-permit applications.

              It also introduced language requirements for certain B-permit applicants, notably family members of non-EU nationals.

              But since January 1st, C permit applicants and dependents of non-EU nationals applying for B permit applicants have been required to obtain certified language certificates from a government-accredited institution to prove that they have sufficient language skills to communicate with ease in at least one of the Swiss national languages.

              https://www.thelocal.ch/20191231/stricter-language-requirements-for-foreigners-in-switzerlandReport

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

              If you are trying to argue for state mandated multi-lingualism, I will graciously concede that it is a very fine idea.

              Si está tratando de defender el multilingüismo impuesto por el estado, le concederé amablemente que es una idea muy buena.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I don’t think that you understand the language laws.

                The language laws don’t argue “YOU MUST SPEAK ALL THREE LANGUAGES” (if there are three official languages).

                The language laws argue something much closer to “YOU MUST SPEAK (at least) *ONE* OF THESE THREE LANGUAGES UP TO A PARTICULAR LEVEL OF FLUENCY”.

                So I’m not arguing for state mandated multi-lingualism.

                I’m asking if you’re asking for state mandated fluency in one of our official languages.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Yes, as part of the application for citizenship, there should be state mandated fluency in at least one of the languages used on ballots.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Oh, is that how language laws work in the countries you want us to be more like?

                That’s odd because I’m not seeing that rule in the European countries you’re saying we should be more like.

                Holy crap… is this one of those things where you’re just imagining what Europe is like and asking “why can’t we be more like that?” instead of, you know, looking at what Europe is actually like?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                The country I am imagining is America, where as part of the citizenship application process, applicants must demonstrate proficiency in at least one of the ballot languages.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Well, I’ll let you go back to wondering why weren’t not more like “almost all governments throughout history and across geography” while imagining systems that are different than “almost all governments throughout history and across geography”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                My point was that we ARE like “almost all governments throughout history and across geography” in the sense that we have a mixed economy which can adapt to shifting situations.

                If you want to shift to a conversation about multi-culturalism or something, its a bit off-topic, but use your moderator powers freely.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Really? Because I was noticing how the original post was talking about how other countries handled the global pandemic well and ours didn’t.

                If the argument is that the US is pretty much like all of the other countries in the world, throughout history…

                Well, I can’t argue with that.Report

            • greginak in reply to Jaybird says:

              This entire language law is a distraction. Many countries are far more multi lingual then the US which proves what exactly. Language use is tied to history and migration and patterns of colonization. You can’t map language laws onto type of economy. Well you could but it would be a weak ass argument.

              The actual good argument against a mixed economy is that a less ideological view requires constant assessment of data which is always imperfect and requires decisions which can be very wrong. If all the decisions are good then a mixed economy stomps the crap out of ideological pure visions. If the decisions are poor then the ideologues can almost catch up.

              This crap about they have language laws in Europe therefore we, what?, can’t learn anything about how prosperous western countries thrive is , well, crap. Going all the way back to the great health care debates here the Ideologues effort is spent more on reasons to ignore information then doesn’t fit the ideology. Which is why ideologues got no idea.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to greginak says:

                I don’t see it as a distraction. I see it as something that these other countries that we feel we should be more like have done and they did it for reasons that involve some amount of stasis. Like, they want to remain being countries that can do those things that we look at and say “we should be more like that’.

                This crap about they have language laws in Europe therefore we, what?, can’t learn anything about how prosperous western countries thrive is , well, crap. Going all the way back to the great health care debates here the Ideologues effort is spent more on reasons to ignore information then doesn’t fit the ideology. Which is why ideologues got no idea.

                The argument is that our country doesn’t have as much collaboration as we would like.

                The counter-argument is always something about the difference between somewhat homogenous cultures versus multicultures. And if arguments about demographics are poisonous (remember when Blaise tried to argue with me that Denmark was as diverse as the USA?), I think that something like “the existence of language laws” can be something that is tangible enough to actually point to and say “look… does that thing exist or not?” without getting into discussions of morality.

                And any discussion of “we should be more like country X!” should have room for counter-questions like “really?”Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                What we call “States” Europe calls “Countries”. That nicely makes the comparison apples-to-apples and introduces multiculturalism, scale, and different regions having very different cost/price/productivity structures.

                If we do that then our country has roughly the same, or (much) better, collaboration as the EU.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

          Monoculturalism is an enforcement tool for monoculturalism, even where it doesn’t reach the level of obvious laws.Report

  5. Matty says:

    I see a lot of debate about what we might call marginal cases. Say a law is passed requiring restaurants to space tables wider apart, as a result your restaurant can’t fit in enough customers to make a profit and can’t raise prices without driving those remaining customers away. The restaurant wasn’t ordered to close, it wasn’t ordered to keep prices down yet a case could be made the loss of income was due to the government rules.
    Do they deserve compensation?Report

    • Philip H in reply to Matty says:

      Yes.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to Matty says:

      In the scenario we’re living through? Yes. The partial benefit back to us the community is that the size of the subsidy might be proportionally less if the business(es) can operate at some reduced capacity.

      If we through Govt. are unilaterally changing the rules of the market – especially at this scale and not simply an accidental byproduct of some other law – then that cost is a social cost we [ought] to account for.

      Administering these subsidies? Well, mostly a nightmare.Report