Rochester, New York

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Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has since lived and traveled around the world several times over. Though frequently writing about politics out of a sense of duty and love of country, most of the time he would prefer discussions on history, culture, occasionally nerding on aviation, and his amateur foodie tendencies. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter @four4thefire and his writing website Yonderandhome.com

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58 Responses

  1. Avatar Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    More footage from last night:

    Genies have gone back into bottles before, of course. But they’re not inclined to go back into bottles.Report

    • Avatar InMD in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      I just don’t get this. There’s no honor in alienating people to the point they turn against you.Report

      • Avatar Marchmaine in reply to InMD
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        says:

        I’ve been waiting for the pivot to the platform of reform… but honestly, starting to think it isn’t about reform, not really, but about choosing sides. There’s no reform coming.Report

        • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Marchmaine
          Ignored
          says:

          “it isn’t about reform”…

          What is the “it” here? The protests?
          The movement for police reform?

          And when you say “there is no reform coming” who are the active agents in that sentence?
          Who are these people who you expect to create reform?Report

          • Avatar Marchmaine in reply to Chip Daniels
            Ignored
            says:

            Whom do you expect to enlist as agents to create reform?Report

          • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
            Ignored
            says:

            Speaking for Marchmaine here:

            What is the “it” here? The protests?
            The movement for police reform?

            The rioters.

            And when you say “there is no reform coming” who are the active agents in that sentence?

            The rioters.

            Who are these people who you expect to create reform?

            The rioters.

            See how easy that was?Report

            • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Stillwater
              Ignored
              says:

              Forgive me if I am reading too much into the comments, but whenever I see comments along the lines of how the protesters are doing it wrong, and alienating supporters I think of the MLK’s frustration with white liberals, and how white support for even the most basic of civil liberty was always fragile and highly conditional, and subject to revocation at the slightest breeze of discomfort.

              An intemperate rant, an over the top bit of rhetoric, an angry outburst and suddenly white people flee for the exits and [sadly] and [regretfully] decide that they must now side with the government and crush the protests.

              Because for us people in the dominant majority, support for the basic humanity of minority people IS optional, a thing we do if the whim strikes us, if we are feeling generous and broadminded, and subject to our bespoke stipulations and conditions.Report

        • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Marchmaine
          Ignored
          says:

          I’m reluctant to criticize BLM as a movement and organization because I’m not connected with it and really know very little about it’s workings, but I am wondering about their essentially leader-less approach as I understand it. It seems like a voice needs to emerge to help organize and direct the immense energy behind the protests.

          So while fully supporting the broad goals of BLM, I do share your wonderings about when/where change actually comes from.

          I do believe they and other groups have put real work into GOTV efforts which could potentially effect change but we’ll see on that.Report

          • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Kazzy
            Ignored
            says:

            I agree that the leaderless model doesn’t accomplish much, compared to the highly organized and effective civil rights movement.

            Having said that, I think we should ask ourselves the same question.

            I mentioned before how the shopkeeper class- the Rotary, Chamber of Commerce, real estate groups and so forth- are the primary organizers of local politics.

            They have tremendous power in selecting the city councilpersons, the Police Commission, and mayor. They host the fundraising parties, they throw their support and dollars behind this candidate or that and have a lot of control over how policing is done in nearly every city.

            Will the shopkeeper class make police reform a priority? Support candidates who promise to reform? Or will they do exactly as they have done for decades, support “get tough” candidates who promise to sweep the streets of undesirables so long as nobody care how it is done?

            I mentioned above how many people feel like this is something that doesn’t affect them, that police reform is an optional, charitable endeavor that they can support or not depending on a whim.

            But the protests and riots serve an important point; “No Justice No Peace” means exactly that. Unless the police are reformed, the entire economy can be brought to its knees.Report

            • Avatar InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
              Ignored
              says:

              Seems to me as though better paths exist in enlisting the support of all that petty bourgeoisie scum than trashing businesses and threatening random people at dinner. Which is the point I was making that started this thread. The only message being sent is that people who do this are a bunch of assholes.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                The point I was trying to make was that the goal of police reform is NOT an optional alliance to make the lives of black people better.

                It is to make the lives of bourgeoisie better, to prevent the endless cycle of killing/ riot/ suppression which destroys the economic livelihood of the property owning class.

                If this cycle doesn’t end soon, hundreds of billions of dollars of equity will be destroyed.Report

              • Avatar InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                In a democracy every political movement towards policy change is an optional alliance. That’s how our system works.

                Any movement that can’t succeed within that constraint is not only destined to fail but deserves to. If I didn’t know better I’d think there’s a faction way more obsessed with being good than doing good. They’re right there with the reactionaries pushing us towards that cycle, whether they know it or not.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                Yes you’re right, but in this case “failure” means the impoverishment of the shopkeeper class.

                Meaning that police reform is an imperative need for them whether they recognize it or not.Report

              • Avatar InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Nonsense. It means the triumph of the status quo and the decision to do business elsewhere.Report

              • Avatar George Turner in reply to InMD
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                says:

                All those Republican governors are loving all the new businesses that are abandoning blue cities. 🙂

                Yesterday South Dakota’s governor (who is ridiculously pretty) invited the San Francisco salon owner to come set up shop in South Dakota. 🙂Report

              • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to George Turner
                Ignored
                says:

                Assuming she can meet the licensing requirements:

                To transfer your cosmetology license to South Dakota, your education and work experience needs to be equal to or greater than what is required in South Dakota. The reciprocity to transfer your license is $100. You must also provide proof of high school graduation or GED, a passport or driver’s license, and an affidavit from the licensing agency of your home state.

                Report

              • Avatar George Turner in reply to Michael Cain
                Ignored
                says:

                *snort*

                2017 California Board of Cosmetology License Requirements

                COSMETOLOGIST LICENSE: 1600 Hours / 3200 Apprenticeship + 220 Related Training Hours

                It only takes 250 hours to get a commercial pilot’s license, and 1,500 hours to become a commercial airline pilot flying a Boeing or Airbus full of passengers all over the world.Report

              • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to George Turner
                Ignored
                says:

                Okay, I probably deserve that. I wanted something other than the obvious “the largest city in SD isn’t even a good-sized suburb in California.” The SD governor is offering the freedom to run your salon without masks. In exchange, you have to give up many terrific things that come from living in a thriving major metro area.Report

              • Avatar InMD in reply to George Turner
                Ignored
                says:

                That sounds like wishful thinking. More like urban cores will be abandoned again, much to the detriment of everyone. The difference is that this time people might never come back. If covid has established anything it’s that downtown office space is obsolete, at least on anything remotely like the scale it’s existed until now.

                No one is moving to fly over country from the coasts over this but a lot of people may re-establish in the suburbs, especially if that’s where white collar workers and their disposable dollars are.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                And then what happens?Report

              • Avatar InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Exactly what the police and their apologists want. Nothing.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, OK, if the riots result in “nothing” happening, then why should we be concerned about them?Report

              • Avatar InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                ….because we think police reform is important?Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                Important for what reason?

                I mean, is police reform an urgent, imperative concern of us middle class white people, something which in which we have a vital vested interest?

                Or is it some kind of charity, something we do for our less fortunate brethren?

                This is a critical distinction, I think.Report

              • Avatar InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                My opinion is that it is an urgent issue for everyone and that we all have skin in it, absent maybe true 1%ers. Blacks and Hispanics are disproportionately on the receiving end of the abuse and incompetence, but it can and does happen to everyone. I personally know white middle class people who have had the wrong door SWAT raid experience. My wife has had a gun pulled on her during a traffic stop. One nervous finger and it’s all over. It’s sheer luck no one was hurt.

                But I’m a liberal so I can approach these issues in an open minded, problem solving way. I don’t have to force it into all these crazy race theories that seem to animate progressive activists.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                That’s very true but I’m thinking more like, what are the consequences of having the police become de facto occupying armies in our communities?

                Alienated and hostile to the people they ostensibly protect, and the people fearful and distrustful of them.

                I think vast swaths of America could easily become like Gaza or Northern Ireland or South Africa or any other troubled society where the people are ruled by a hated occupier, where both the occupied and occupier live in perpetual fear of the other.Report

              • Avatar George Turner in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                We call those areas “Democrat run cities.” Everybody else is just taking a pass on the post-apocalyptic nightmare of mutant cannibal gangs being stalked by militia warlords.Report

              • Avatar InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                That’s certainly a possible outcome, and I don’t think it would be good for anyone.Report

              • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                In the West, the California Diaspora has been a thing for more than 30 years (I first heard the specific term from a University of Colorado historian in the late 1980s). Lots of Californians and Seattleites and Portlanders move to Front Range Colorado.

                When I used to play with interstate migration data, one of the obvious things about the West was that people moved around between the major metro areas in all sorts of directions, including inland. Where people don’t move is flyover ruralia.

                Urban core collapse was almost exclusively an east of the Mississippi thing, and particularly pronounced in the extended Rust Belt. In other parts of the country the more common pattern was that urban growth slowed, or declined somewhat, then came roaring back. To pick two disparate examples, in censuses from 1860, LA’s population has never declined and Omaha’s declined once.

                I often assert here that one of the problems the Democratic party faces is in its two regional strongholds — the West and the NE urban corridor — “urban problems” means two very different things.Report

              • Avatar InMD in reply to Michael Cain
                Ignored
                says:

                Interesting. I can certainly see how that would result in people talking passed each other on (what they think is) the same issue, depending on what part of the country they’re from.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Shorter Chip: “Look, the rioters are telling the shopkeepers that it’d be a REAL SHAME if something bad happened to their business, and I’m perfectly fine with that.”Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Are you thinking this will somehow not happen if we are not OK with it?

                Even the “solutions” advocated by the “get tough on crime” crowd, will produce exactly that result, the impoverishment and immiseration of millions of people.

                So yeah, it is a real shame if this happened.

                Too bad a republican democracy can’t seem to figure out a way to solve their political problems.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Are you thinking this will somehow not happen if we are not OK with it?

                I’m as certain as it’s possible to be about political stuff (so, like 99.99%) that the threat (and reality!) of having their businesses destroyed by rioters will not make business owners support police reform.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Same question as to InMD above.

                Then what happens? What happens if we can’t get the police under control?

                Game it out for me.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Chip, I’m not the one who’s argued that extorting business owners will lead to *greater* support for police reform. You have.

                So one way the to game this out is that rioting works against police reform. The more rioting, the less likely reform is.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m not arguing that it will or won’t lead to this or that.
                I have no idea how people will respond.

                I’m arguing that regardless of how one feels about the protests or riots, police reform is in everyone’s best interest whether they realize it or not.

                My fear is what happens if people choose not to gain control over the police.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                My fear is what happens if people choose not to gain control over the police.

                this is amusing to me on so many levels. *Suddenly* – SUDDENLY! – (upper middle class) liberals’ primary issue is reining in the cops.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                #BLMB

                Black Lives Matter. But,Report

  2. Avatar Kazzy
    Ignored
    says:

    This happened in March.

    The officers were suspended in September.

    You want people to stop the protests and the destruction that often accompanies the protest? You not only need to stop killing Black folk, you need to stop doing nothing about it until after people protest.Report

    • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to Kazzy
      Ignored
      says:

      Is killing white folk still cool? They do that about twice as much.Report

    • Avatar InMD in reply to Kazzy
      Ignored
      says:

      There’s some very simple stuff these departments could do to defuse the situations. I can’t tell if they still don’t get it or if continuing the business as usual, sham processes are a way of intentionally digging in.Report

      • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to InMD
        Ignored
        says:

        My suburban city of 120K recently added the 3rd and 4th mental-health clinicians to the PD. Each of the clinicians has a city-provided vehicle with lights and is dispatched along with the regular officers for domestic disputes or events that sound like there’s some mental health issue. Everyone, including the regular officers, seems to be happy with the results. Arrests are down relative to other outcomes. With tongue only partially in cheek, the whole thing can probably be sold to the regular officers just on the basis of paperwork: if the mental health person handles it, it’s their paperwork.Report

        • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Michael Cain
          Ignored
          says:

          That sounds like a great change.

          But I increasingly think we are looking too closely at just the police, which is probably the hardest part of this to change from a policy standpoint.

          We need the DAs and others to get their shit together. Change may happen there faster since some of those folks can be voted out or those who appoint them to be voted out. If the DA came after these guys sooner and with greater success, culture might change for no reason other than fear of consequences.Report

          • Avatar InMD in reply to Kazzy
            Ignored
            says:

            The challenge I think many DAs find is that the state of the law as it is now makes it really hard to convict. Remember they have power to prosecute, but not legislate, and not change precedents in the case law.

            Which isn’t to say that isn’t part of the equation, but that the faster way to get changes is legislation.Report

        • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain
          Ignored
          says:

          Hell, just simply convincing police leadership (& political leadership) that stats for tickets and arrests are not useful metrics regarding the effectiveness of the police force.Report

      • Avatar James K in reply to InMD
        Ignored
        says:

        I suspect many of them consider the right to assault and kill whoever they wish an essential condition of their employment.Report

        • Avatar InMD in reply to James K
          Ignored
          says:

          I don’t think that’s the case either. More it’s that they’ve been told for a long time to do their jobs a certain way, have been given impunity to do it that way, and now can’t conceive of doing it any other way. The current narrative of cops as complete sociopaths misses the mark. Better to think of them as city bureaucrats with weapons sent out to cure deep seated social ills and given all of the wrong tools to do it.Report

          • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD
            Ignored
            says:

            Ding! Ding! Ding!

            Obviously there are the handful of sociopaths who sneak in, but in general it’s not too different from other bureaucracies, except with guns and a.monopoly on force.Report

  3. Avatar George Turner
    Ignored
    says:

    This incident just illustrates that covering a person’s nose and mouth with a piece of cloth is nothing but murder.Report

  4. Avatar strong-in-june
    Ignored
    says:

    Wow, not even an ellipsis.

    “complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint”

    “complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint due to excited delirium due to acute phencyclidine intoxication.”

    One of those is propaganda. Fake news!Report

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