Making a Difference: How To Communicate About Using Masks for COVID

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J Christopher

Helping workers, communities, and companies implement safe behaviors, improve the environment, and deal with risk in the workplace and in our communities. Working together we have seen significant improvement in safety, increased understanding and addressing risk, and upgrading environmental performance. I’ve worked with hundreds of people across the US, in Mexico, South America, and Eastern Europe. I’ve made enough mistakes that I have a lot of experience and know many things that don’t work. Through that experience I now know that communicating is essential to being effective and it is not what I think is important that matters, it is what my audience thinks is important that matters.

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139 Responses

  1. Avatar Philip H
    Ignored
    says:

    DOs:
    • Identify what is important to them (not you)
    • Tell them why it is important
    • Always be positive
    • Be patient, changing human behavior is hard and takes time
    • Decide that you want to be effective in your communication, stay on point. Less is more, unless they ask for information.

    And when they call you a fearful sheep, laugh outloud I guess.Report

  2. Avatar Chip Daniels
    Ignored
    says:

    DON’T:
    Elect a profoundly stupid and malicious liar who uses his position to tell Americans that they don’t need masks because the fake doctors are covering up a cure for the virus, and argle bargle gibber squee alien DNA and demonic sperm.

    DO: Elect an intelligent man who relies on expert guidance and logic to guide the nation through the pandemic.Report

  3. Avatar Mike Schilling
    Ignored
    says:

    Have you ever dealt with a situation in which safety measures were actively disparaged as being cowardly or an attempt by management to enslave the workers? If so, what did you so?Report

    • fillyjonk fillyjonk in reply to Mike Schilling
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      says:

      I’ve had issues with students refusing to wear eye protection. In that case, of course, the person MAINLY hurt would be them. I took to making people sign a disclaimer that basically said I had warned them about the dangers of working in lab (glassware, solvents, caustics) and informed them of OSHA regulations and reminded them, and their refusal to wear goggles was their choice.

      Yes, I would have some gnarly paperwork to fill out and maybe face a few days of unpaid leave if someone got glass in their eye, but I wouldn’t get sick.

      My usual MO for the unmasked in public is to walk the other way. I have never been directly harassed for wearing a mask but I know someone who has been – and she has a double reason to wear it, being caretaker for an ill elderly parent. (She basically lectured the person, not sure if I’d be that brave)

      I am very much not looking forward to dealing with being mask-police in class this fall, though I have been informed I can tell people who are unmasked and refuse to mask to leave, and have campus security back me up if needed….Report

      • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to fillyjonk
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        says:

        Surely on eye protection they’re in violation of some university policy about compliance with OSHA and insurance requirements.

        I believe it’s Loomis over at Lawyers, Guns & Money who has said he doesn’t need campus security, that his mask enforcement policy will be if he walks into the room and there’s anyone there without a mask, he will announce no mask equals no class, that if he doesn’t lecture no one is going to pass the final, then leave.Report

        • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Michael Cain
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          says:

          On the one hand, I applaud his firmness. On the other hand, if I have to choose between staying safe and not having to listen to Loomis …Report

        • fillyjonk fillyjonk in reply to Michael Cain
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          says:

          I’ve decided if people are unmasked and are either belligerent when I ask, or keep sneaking their mask off, I will just declare that the class is all-online from now on. Several of my older colleagues and one with an underlying condition are doing all online. And I admit I have days I wonder if I should be doing my classes in person. (They are SMALL classes and can distance in the rooms we have). But I think I need to impress on them that it is very much out of the goodness of my heart I am doing in-person and I am putting myself at a (probably small, but whatever) risk to do it.

          It could all change though if our reopening committee decides we can’t safely do face to face, or too many of the early arrivals (athletes) turn out to be infected. I’m expecting masks to do a LOT of heavy lifting here, and also opening windows on the rooms where I can.Report

  4. Avatar Damon
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    says:

    Here’s an idea…don’t have the authority figures tell you one thing one week and then do a 100% reversal a few weeks later. Fauci said that masks were not necessary because he was concerned there wouldn’t be enough masks for medical staff. Then that message changed. Sorry dude. Credibility is now zero. You only get one chance to make a first impression. Never saw a press conference where he said “I’m sorry for lying to the american public, but I was thinking about all that medial staff and wanted masks for them”.

    https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/502890-fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masksReport

    • Avatar Philip H in reply to Damon
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      says:

      How about when the actual smart experts recommend something new based on a more information, we recognize that they might be on to something and follow their lead?Report

      • Avatar Damon in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        So you’re saying he wasn’t the smart expert or are you saying that he didn’t lie, but that it was new info that changed his mind? Because it wasn’t the latter. See the link above.

        Here’s an idea….replace your authority figure who stated that he intentionally LIED about wearing masks. Have the new guy come out and say “we fired that idiot, he lied. I as the new expert say “You need to wear a mask.”Report

        • Avatar Philip H in reply to Damon
          Ignored
          says:

          Why does he need to be replaced? And why does saying “we don’t want people wearing medical masks (N95, surgical etc) masks because we don’t have enough for medical professionals” when no one was making, selling or studying fabric masks, and then saying “everyone should wear them and we now know that the homemade ones are in fact fairly better then nothing” constitute lying?Report

  5. Avatar Pinky
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    says:

    Anyone have anything constructive at all to say? Or are we just playing “Don’t: The Home Game”? Because these comments are the embodiment of what the main article is telling us not to do.

    Let me give it a try, from a conservative perspective. “Masks: for the sake of the economy.” “Masks: for the sake of your community.” “Masks: not because the government tells you to, but because it’s the right thing to do.”Report

    • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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      says:

      I’ve deployed the “Masks because its the right and Christian thing to do” down here in Mississippi and been told repeatedly that I’m a sheep who is teaching my kids to be fearful and follow the new world order. Not really sure how else you expect me to respond.Report

      • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
        Ignored
        says:

        I don’t know. I didn’t hear the conversation. For all I know, you may have nudged someone in the right direction. And odds are, the person you were talking to wasn’t neutral on the subject. It takes a while to encourage someone to change their opinion.

        I would love to have seen the conversation, too. People’s body language is off. It’s awkward to speak when you’re wearing a mask, and it’s hard to read someone’s face when they’re wearing a mask. We’re all feeling a little threatened by each other’s presence these days, and we’re out of practice socializing.Report

      • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        Went into work yesterday. They installed a device that you walk up to, it scans your forehead, reads you your numbers, and then you can go in and start working.

        I couldn’t help but remember the stories about Revelation…

        My numbers, thankfully, were in the 98 range rather than in the mid-to-high 600s.Report

      • Avatar gabriel conroy in reply to Philip H
        Ignored
        says:

        Like Pinky, I didn’t see or hear the conversation. I imagine that advising someone to do the “Christian thing” requires the person who utters the admonition to have some standing with their interlocutor as a Christian. It probably also helps if the interlocutor is a Christian. I can imagine a certain type of person saying “it’s the Christian thing to do” more as a way to bait the person they’re talking to.

        Again, I have no idea how or whether that applied in the conversation you’re referring to and how or whether that applies with your own “standing” as a Christian.Report

        • Avatar Pinky in reply to gabriel conroy
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          says:

          “Wearing a mask is the Christian thing to do” can under certain circumstances sound like “if you’re not wearing a mask, you’re not a Christian”. My proposal was “wearing a mask is the right thing to do”. I’m not saying that necessarily would hit the sweet spot either, but I think it’s got a better chance.Report

          • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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            says:

            living in south Mississippi these days one is surrounded but Christian religiosity. During our brief shut down, churches were the only exception. And when they were threatened by the state’s Republican governor a good many local and statewide folks called him a tool of the Devil. So assuming Christian religious affiliation is fairly normal.

            Of course, its the type of Christianity where protecting others when they are people of color is presumed by white Christians to be a sin. Which I suspect influences so much of these interactions. Its also a part of the country where being a liberal and Democrat is equated with either mental illness or being an actual UnAmerican traitor.Report

            • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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              says:

              That’s one of the reasons I said I had to see the conversation. In this dialogue, you seem to be radiating contempt. Is that how the mask conversation went?Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                Yes. And I do radiate contempt for people who claim the yoke and mantle of Christ and refuse to live by His actual teachings. Christians SHOULD ooze contempt for that.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                OK, so you’ve got the negative criticism, the scolding, the politicizing, and what makes you feel better rather than what is effective. If you could figure out a way to blame a third party, you could be committing all five “don’ts”. And yet somehow the conversation was unsuccessful!Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                Encouragement is better than scolding, but what’s left out of these discussions is that “I won’t be shamed into doing X” is an irrational position to begin with. I mean, we think it’s perfectly rational because politics is a mind killer, but it isn’t.

                So we’re dealing with a situation where *we* are coddling people we know are irrational to get them to do what *we* think is best for both themselves and others.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, yeah. Half of what we do on these threads is figure out how to help people engage in more rational behaviour. I coddle you while I try to improve your thinking, and you do the same to me. Also, that’s what the article is about. So how about if we find good ways to encourage mask use, implement them, and then make little plaques commemorating how right we were.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                The horse we’re trying to ride keeps getting higher and higher…Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Sorry, but I don’t get the reference.Report

          • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Pinky
            Ignored
            says:

            Let’s start by admitting that a public policy discussion based around encouraging people to wear masks in the middle of a pandemic is a bit weird to begin with, since the reason to wear a mask is that we’re in the middle of a pandemic. And I mean that seriously. The reason to wear a mask is that we’re in the middle of a pandemic!

            The people who don’t want to wear a mask have their reasons, though, and identifying those reasons seems important insofar as changing their mind is important. For example, Michael Brendan Dougherty (famous conservative!) wrote an essay at the beginning of all this to the effect that a mask policy won’t work because Christians are fundamentally anti-mask (God intended for people see each others faces, I think the argument was).

            If that’s the case (that Christians believe face coverings are taboo) then we’re in a tricky place where only fellow Christians will be able to communicate compelling reasons to violate that taboo. Or so it seems to me.

            I mean, it’s a tricky thing. And to his credit, MBD was an early-and-often Covid believer.

            Here’s the article: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/coronavirus-medical-masks-western-world-unlike-to-adopt-long-term/Report

          • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Pinky
            Ignored
            says:

            Let’s start by admitting that a public policy discussion based around encouraging people to wear masks in the middle of a pandemic is a bit weird to begin with, since the reason to wear a mask is that we’re in the middle of a pandemic. And I mean that seriously. The reason to wear a mask is that we’re in the middle of a pandemic!

            The people who don’t want to wear a mask have their reasons, though, and identifying those reasons seems important insofar as changing their mind is viewed as important. For example, Michael Brendan Dougherty (famous conservative!) wrote an essay at the beginning of all this to the effect that a mask policy won’t work because Christians are fundamentally anti-mask (God intended for people see each others faces, I think the argument was).

            If that’s the case (that Christians believe face coverings are taboo) then *only a Christian* then we’re in a tricky place where only fellow Christians will be able to communicate compelling reasons to violate that taboo.

            I mean, it’s a tricky thing. And to his credit, MBD was an early-and-often Covid believer.

            Here’s the article: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/coronavirus-medical-masks-western-world-unlike-to-adopt-long-term/Report

      • fillyjonk fillyjonk in reply to Philip H
        Ignored
        says:

        My response to that (not that I’ve gotten the “you’re a sheep” comment) is “Yes, I am, my Shepherd’s name is Jesus” and we’re steeped enough in Christian culture here that even if the person was not, they’d know what I meant.

        I’d rather be a sheep than a goat.Report

  6. Avatar Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    You want to know what one of the problems is?

    “It is vitally important to wear a mask, be socially distant, and don’t engage in frivolous pursuits outside like playing t-ball or going to funerals.”

    “Also, there is no reason to believe that engaging in protests has any additional risk.”

    It feels like there’s a risk of getting the Covid *EVERYWHERE* except if you’re throwing bottles at the cops.

    Which confuses the narrative somewhat.Report

    • Avatar Pinky in reply to Jaybird
      Ignored
      says:

      All right, great. So what? Do we give up? If masks are the right thing, we should be promoting them, whatever mixed messaging there may be or may have been. If masks are the right thing, and there’s mixed messaging, then it’s even more important to promote them in the most effective way.Report

      • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Pinky
        Ignored
        says:

        No, we absolutely should wear masks. It’s good for your community, it’s good for your family, it’s good for your health, it’s good for your future.

        And we should do more to act safely.

        It’s good for the community, it’s good for our families, it’s good for our health, it’s good for our future.Report

    • Avatar Philip H in reply to Jaybird
      Ignored
      says:

      As you have been told more then once – the refusal to condemn protests was an acknowledgement that protesting for social justice issues was both a fundamental right and a public health necessity. Frankly saying there is no additional risk from protests is not scientifically a controversial issue.

      And if you have ever looked at pictures from protests, the overwhelming majority are wearing masks, and the cities they occur in are not showing outsized positive testing or hospitalizations, no matter what the conservative media might want.Report

      • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        If you’re this easily baited into deprioritizing basic hygiene, you actually do undermine the mask argument.Report

      • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        I’m going to need you to keep telling me that protesting for social justice issues is a public health necessity more important than not socially distancing for COVID.

        I’m going to need you to yell that louder and louder and louder.

        And the part about the masks and the cities not showing outsized positive testing/hospitalizations? I’m going to need you to yell that stuff too. You know, for the people who are discussing what needs to be done and what’s less important for how we open up in the future.

        This is important.

        For our community, for our families, for our health, and for our future.Report

        • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
          Ignored
          says:

          Why do you need this?

          The virus doesn’t.Report

          • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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            says:

            Because, without it, I’m still going to think that the protests are a vector.

            I mean, here are the numbers for Oregon and Warshington and Minnesota.

            And I keep being expected to not notice that Protests Enthusiasts are treating the covid the way that Trump is.

            Hey. Maybe it’ll just disappear, right?Report

            • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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              says:

              Suppose the protests are a vector.

              Does that change your decision on wearing a mask?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Not at all.

                Let’s suppose the protests are *NOT* a vector.

                Does that change your decision on public gatherings?Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                This essay was about how to convince people to wear masks.

                So I’m wondering why all the talk about protests, as if it had any relevance.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Well, the importance of wearing masks is that it is vitally important that we all do the things we can in order to limit the spread of this virus that is killing people.

                Indeed, we all wear masks whenever we’re in a place where we’re going to be around where people have been breathing for our community, for our families, for our health, and for our future.

                But if you want to know why this narrative seems to have a bit of a weight chained to one of its ankles, it has to do with an elephant in the room.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Why do you call it a “narrative”?

                Isn’t the idea that mask wearing inhibits the spread of the virus just a fact, like gravity?

                And how does people going to protests create a “weight chained to one of its ankles”?

                Do their actions change the truth or falsity of the proposition?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Isn’t the idea that mask wearing inhibits the spread of the virus just a fact, like gravity?

                You’d think. Except there seem to have been a lot of articles written that explain that masks don’t work.

                I’m sure you remember these from Vox:

                Do you remember this from the Warshington Post?

                Just like gravity, I guess.

                And how does people going to protests create a “weight chained to one of its ankles”?

                I think that the whole “We Have Always Been At War With Eastasia!” thing kinda undercuts the narrative.

                This whole wide-eyed incredulity that we ever might have been anything but an ally to Oceana makes me wonder what we will have always known about masks tomorrow.

                Do their actions change the truth or falsity of the proposition?

                Not at all. The truth/falsity of the proposition never changes.

                Unlike the narrative.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                But you aren’t denying the basic proposition, that masks are effective.
                You introduce the topic of the protests, even though these are irrelevant to the proposition.

                Then you tell us that some people were incorrectly saying they didn’t work which again, is irrelevant to whether one should wear one now, because experts are nearly unanimous in recommending their effectiveness now.

                So I’m back to my original question- why do you “need” someone to tell you anything?

                Since you already said it wouldn’t change your decision as to whether to wear one or not.

                The reason I press on this point is that it seems to exemplify a lot of what is going on, where the issue of a mask is concealed under a flurry of irrelevant ax-grinding and culture warring.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Of course I believe that masks are effective. I believe in the germ theory of disease.

                Which is like gravity.

                That said, people still get the flu despite getting flu shots.

                Why is this? Do we not believe in vaccinations?

                No, it’s because it’s not a binary. It’s a question of “risk”. You can add risk and you can remove risk.

                And talking about the moral imperatives of removing risk is an important conversation. Indeed, wearing a mask helps make things a lot less risky for everybody.

                But there is still an elephant in the room.

                The reason I press on this point is that it seems to exemplify a lot of what is going on, where the issue of a mask is concealed under a flurry of irrelevant ax-grinding and culture warring.

                Oh, you’ve noticed that?

                Do you think that other people might have noticed that too?Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                What is the elephant in the room and why does it matter, such that you “need” to be told something?

                What would you do differently if you weren’t told that thing?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Chip, the elephant in the room is what I talk about here in this comment. I believe that the peace riots are adding additional risk in the middle of a dang pandemic.

                When people argue back that “protesting for social justice issues was … a public health necessity” (you can read that comment here) then I am stuck noticing that there is something else wacky going on.

                Sort of like “It’s important for you to minimize risk but it’s less important for me to minimize risk”.

                When people argue that it’s important for me to act in service to a particular ideal but it’s less important for them to do so, I notice. I think it has to do with my Calvinist upbringing.

                “What would I do differently if I weren’t told that thing?”

                I’d probably roll my eyes less.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                It’s not that person A has priority over person B.

                Let’s say that person A is ignoring social distancing while protesting for improvements in society and person B is sneezing on a cashier and not wearing a mask. Person A’s actions may net out to a societal positive, while person B’s actions don’t. Or at a minimum, person A’s calculation is more supportable than person B’s.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                Pinky, nobody is arguing that sneezing on a cashier and not wearing a mask is good.

                The only thing happening is that we are arguing that it is absolutely morally essential that everyone wear a mask because of the covid and it’s important for our community, for our families, for our health, and for our future.

                Nobody disagrees with this.

                The weirdness comes up when we start discussing gathering in public places without engaging in social distancing.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                “The only thing happening is that we are arguing that it is absolutely morally essential that everyone wear a mask because of the covid and it’s important for our community, for our families, for our health, and for our future.

                “Nobody disagrees with this.”

                I think people do disagree with this. If I were driving somewhere with my mask on the passenger seat, and I saw someone get hit by a car, I’d get out to help him. If I forgot to grab my mask, so be it. My calculation would be that the immediate care I could give would outweigh the risk. All other things being equal, I’d want to be wearing a mask, but it wouldn’t be the highest priority. Likewise, the people in the street protesting who aren’t practicing social distancing are making a calculation that the care they’re providing outweighs the risk. I may think their calculation is way off, but I can understand it.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                Pardon me. No one *HERE* disagrees with this.

                I have no doubt that we could do a quick search of the google and find some Karen somewhere talking about how masks make her angina act up.

                It’s when we start discussing social distancing and the importance of same that people start explaining that there are costs and trade-offs and how much I need to understand some things.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I don’t know what you mean by this comment, but I don’t think you’re addressing my point. It doesn’t matter how many of *us* believe an argument, or whether you find an argument satisfying. People are making the argument, and it’s rational.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                Sure, it’s rational if you share a handful of priors.

                If you don’t share the handful of priors, the conclusion doesn’t exactly line up.

                We should do a better job of having a Theory of Mind.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I get that and sure, people behave in ways that are often stupid and incoherent.

                But this is why I call it culture warring because into something as simple as wearing a mask, are dragged all sorts of extraneous fights and tribal totems and frippery which are really just a sort of adolescent oppositional defiance disorder.

                It seems clear that a very large chunk of people oppose wearing a mask simply because their hated enemies are saying they should. And they would literally rather die than unclench their fists.

                The less we can indulge that the better.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Indeed. Any sentence that talks about how “It is important that we do X!” and then spins around into a “but” should really take into account whether the “but” undercuts the “it is important”.

                Because the “but” undercuts the “it is important”.Report

      • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        “the refusal to condemn protests was an acknowledgement that protesting for social justice issues was…a public health necessity.”

        wait

        social justice is a public health necessity?Report

        • Avatar Pinky in reply to DensityDuck
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          says:

          If you take the position that the justice system constitutes a threat to black people, then it logically follows.Report

          • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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            says:

            There’s also the well documented history of not properly funding healthcare in communities of color, creating and maintaining food deserts in communities of color. Those are public health issues that are often wrapped up with the policing issues for many protesters and organizations involved in this work.Report

    • Avatar Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      Have there been any statements from the powers that be asserting that protesting is COVID risk free? This argument gets trotted out every time this subject comes up, and it’s always without attribution.Report

      • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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        says:

        No. I’ve never seen the argument that it’s risk-free.

        But I’ve seen arguments that people should be arrested for playing in a park. I’ve seen arguments that going to the beach is inviting death.

        But when it comes to going to protests butt-naked?

        I’ve seen arguments about how doing that sort of thing has a moral calculus and, gee, I’ve really got to understand.

        I’m willing to say that people should be willing to make their own calculations about the risks they’re willing to entertain. I’m willing to say that people who go outside (even socially distancing) when they don’t have to, are being selfish.

        But when there’s a weird dynamic that it’s in good taste to condemn the people going to the park and keeping their distance and it’s in poor taste to condemn going to the precinct and set shit on fire, there’s something going on.

        And if it’s in poor taste to even notice, there’s *REALLY* something going on.Report

        • Avatar Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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          says:

          I don’t think anyone is condemning the guy playing ball with his daughter. It was a case of police overreach, which is kind of ironic in this year. Even more ironic is that they weren’t wearing PPE themselves. They did later apologize. https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/coronavirus/brighton-police-apologize-for-handcuffing-man-at-park-over-stay-at-home-order

          The Grim Reaper guy was flashy and he got the headlines he was looking for, and the case count in FL seems to be bearing him out. But, it’s one guy, a private citizen, speaking his mind.

          If you want to be outraged by anything, let it be because the state of civil discourse in this country has gotten to the point that we argue about whether looking out for your fellow countryman is the right thing to do.Report

          • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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            says:

            “I don’t think anyone is condemning the guy playing ball with his daughter.”

            Merely the authorities.

            They did later apologize.

            I imagine that we will see people apologizing for being at protests.

            The Reaper guy was flashy and *DID* get the headlines he was looking for. Huh.

            Wanna see what he said about the protests or do you not need to know?

            Because the point is not whether it’s okay to do stuff in a park or on a beach if everyone is socially distancing and taking appropriate precautions.

            We know that that stuff is okay.

            It’s the extent to which we’re allowed to have problems with people who aren’t doing that who happen to be not doing that *FASHIONABLY*.Report

            • Avatar Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
              Ignored
              says:

              Local cops f*ck up, and Florida man is hyprocritical. Dog bites man kind of stuff. There’s plenty of stuff to be mad about in this world. People being human ain’t on that list.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
                Ignored
                says:

                And so let’s apply that to the Peace Riots.

                Are the Peace Riots important enough to not have social distancing criticisms applied to them?

                If we are willing to say that the people who are participating in them have done a rational cost/benefit analysis, are we willing to extend that to people who want to go to the beach?

                If not, why don’t the criticisms that apply to beach-goers also applicable to the Peace Rioters?

                When it comes to masks, it makes *PERFECT* sense to talk about how we all have responsibilities to each other and that’s why we wear masks, engage in social distancing, and wash our hands. And I agree with everything there.

                It’s just that there seem to be cracks in our responsibilities to each other.

                And it seems to be poor form to notice that certain others seem to be sloppy in their social distancing.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m trying to imagine the person who would say “Yes. Yes, going to the beach is as vital and important as protesting government murders of innocent people.”Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                See? Chip makes the point well.

                Risk about transmission of the covid gets all fuzzy at this point.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                For whom is it “fuzzy”?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                For those for whom the discussion is about how vital and important the gatherings are rather than about the potential transmission of the virus.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                What’s “fuzzy” about that?
                It seems crystal clear to me.

                They have made a choice- “This is more important than that.”

                Maybe you agree or disagree, but there doesn’t seem to be any fuzziness.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Huh. I was apparently too charitable to say that it was fuzzy.

                Discussion of transmission of the virus is not fuzzy at all.

                This is more important that that, after all.Report

              • Avatar Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                From the OP:

                DON’Ts
                • Negative criticism doesn’t work. Ever. It makes the person resent the change that is desired.
                • Scolding doesn’t work. See above.
                • Blaming some third party doesn’t work.
                • Politicizing the behavior doesn’t work, and it makes a person doubt the message.
                • Indulging in what makes you feel better rather than what is effective.

                If you want to criticize those in Portland and elsewhere fighting battles with the police, go right ahead. Rant away. No one is stopping you. Honestly, I haven’t seen anyone get on their case for contagion reckless behavior. Being stupid for fighting those battles, yes. But, to be fair, they’re all masked so such a criticism would be unwarranted.

                Frankly, I was bit mystified why you had this bug up your butt about the disparity in treatment, but the phrase peace riots clears that up. Lumping them in with actual protesters is dirty pool.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
                Ignored
                says:

                I don’t want to criticize those in Portland.

                I’m noticing how unfashionable it is to criticize those in Portland.

                “Lumping them in with actual protesters is dirty pool.”

                On day 2? Absolutely.

                On day 43?Report

              • Avatar Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Every day. From what I’ve read it only starts up long after everyone has gone home and gone to bed.Report

              • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to Slade the Leveller
                Ignored
                says:

                “I was bit mystified why you had this bug up your butt about the disparity in treatment…”

                because the people telling us that the anti-mask protestors are fucking idiots who deserve every bit of scorn we can muster and the people telling us that the anti-cop protestors are brave warriors for justice whom we ought to emulate are the same peopleReport

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                Yes, and…?Report

              • Avatar Slade the Leveller in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                You’d be hard pressed to find anyone in the country right now that isn’t a bit self-righteous about their politics. Look how comments in reply to an article about ways to coax reluctant mask wearers has devolved into denouncing people of the opposite political spectrum.

                You don’t want to wear a mask? Don’t.Report

              • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to Slade the Leveller
                Ignored
                says:

                ” Look how comments in reply to an article about ways to coax reluctant mask wearers has devolved into denouncing people of the opposite political spectrum.”

                an interesting thing to look at is who made the shit-starting commentsReport

              • Avatar Slade the Leveller in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                It wasn’t me and that’s who you were addressing.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Slade the Leveller
                Ignored
                says:

                I think the inclination to equate the protestors with rioters stems from, at least in Jaybird’s case, the “perception of a perception” reasoning lots of meta- folks engage in. The actual facts on the ground don’t matter and in fact aren’t interesting. What’s interesting is how people perceive the ground, since perceptions are what drive politics and (therefore!) to some extent policy. In Jaybird’s mind, the *interesting* thing about the protests is whether and to what degree the public holds a negative view of them. And to that end, he *adopts* (what he views as) the anti-protestors negative view and then conducts analysis from within that framework. That’s what’s interesting to him (for better or worse) and he’s been pretty honest, at least occasionally, about it.

                So the factual basis for calling the protestors “peace rioters” isn’t relevant to him. What’s interesting is how much mileage he can derive from adopting that framing as a way to find clues (so he thinks) of how the politics of these conflicts will shake out.

                The weird thing is that by adopting a framework whereby he refers to the protestors as “peace rioters” he’s reinforcing the outcome he claims to be neutral about, ie., that the protestors are perceived negatively by the public.Report

              • Avatar CJColucci in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                I don’t want to criticize those in Portland.

                I’m noticing how unfashionable it is to criticize those in Portland.

                The Kinks had a song for that.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
                Ignored
                says:

                If you’re hoping that people not notice that “your” team can criticize them but “their” team’s mirrored criticisms don’t really apply to you, you’re going to be hoping a long time.

                But, hey. Lean into the whole “no, what I’m doing is morally important enough to be important enough for me to see your criticisms as not applying”.

                It might work!Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                “The people who demand to go maskless into stores are every bit as morally righteous as those protesting government murder” is…an interesting argument, I suppose.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Chip, you say my argument is:

                “The people who demand to go maskless into stores are every bit as morally righteous as those protesting government murder”

                And that’s not *QUITE* right. Let me rephrase it to something much closer to my argument.

                “As far as coronaviruses are concerned, the people who demand to go maskless into stores are every bit as morally righteous as those protesting government murder”.

                Do you see the difference between the two?Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Who here is arguing against your proposition?

                Everyone here agrees that the protests could potentially spread the virus.

                The protesters are asserting that the moral value of protesting murder is worth the added risk.

                And this has been stated repeatedly.

                So what’s your beef?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I’d argue against his proposition:

                As far as coronavirus is concerned, the people who demand to go maskless into stores aren’t righteous at all, but fucking morons.

                As far as coronavirus is concerned anyway ….Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                The protesters are asserting that the moral value of protesting murder is worth the added risk.

                It’s whether the risk of them getting the virus is worth the added risk not only of them getting it but gramma also getting it, and then being killed.

                And whether it’s accurate to say that the people going out protesting knowing this know that they’re risking the lives of their grandmothers. And not just their grandmothers, my grandmothers. And your grandmothers.

                Just as surely as if they were at a dance party.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Yes, I would say that to them, the added risk to Grandma is worth it.
                Especially since the wall of moms in Portland probably included a few grandmas.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                “My gramma is okay with dying of the covid!” is an interesting counter-argument to whether or not I should be okay with whether my gramma is put at risk.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Jaybird, you’ve been an advocate of police reform for as long as I’ve been on this board (and undoubtedly longer than that, and you know that only public pressure will compel CCers and other electeds to actually take up the issue with any seriousness, so I presume that you actually support the protestors efforts to make that happen right now.

                You’re also a Covid Realist, who thinks social distancing and masks are an essential part of mitigating its spread.

                Re: *those two things* you’re not different than the people you’re henpecking for doing a hypocrisy: you want pressure on politicians to reform the CJ system; you want people to mitigate the spread of Covid.

                So … is you’re complaint that, unlike you, the pro-protestor community *doesn’t realize they’re doing a hypocrisy*?

                Is it that you think the protestors should go home and stop agitating for CJ reform because mitigating Covid is more important?

                Is it that you’re merely pointing out that lefties hypocrisy opens them up to attack by the right, which is something they really ought to consider if they know what’s good for them?

                Or shorter: I hear you complaining that Chip doesn’t understand your point, but like him I can’t figure out what it is? Is it that the protestors need to go home?

                If that’s it, just say it.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                At this point, I’m not sure that the protesters are, in fact, protesting George Floyd at all.

                And so the whole “it’s okay that we’re not socially distancing” comes across as false on its face. For what it’s worth, I think that there *SHOULD* be pressure on the governments! Local and otherwise!

                But this doesn’t seem to be in service to weakening the strength of Police Unions or forcing cops to wear cameras or increasing transparency or any coherent political goal.

                It seems to be a particularly rambunctious block party.

                One that claims to be above reproach because it’s a block party in service to opposing racism or some such.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                See how easy that was? You disagree with the *substance* of the claim that the protestors are advocating for police reform. You think they’re just a bunch of yahoos who are endangering themselves and the public at large and should go home. And *further* that anyone who thinks the protestors *aren’t* yahoos having a block party are wrong on the merits.

                Shorter Jaybird: Shut the block party down!

                Whew!Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                And then Chip comes in with something like “The protesters are asserting that the moral value of protesting murder is worth the added risk.”

                I’m sure they are asserting that.

                “Are you disagreeing that protesting murder is worth the added risk?”

                “It’s like asking me if I’m disagreeing that curing cancer is worth the added risk and then asking me whether I support cancer being cured. Or if I’m okay with people dying.”

                At this point, I think that the protests are doing a better job of reminding people why we have cops.

                The way I was reminded of that by the CHAZ/CHOP’s extra-judicial murders and security forces demanding that they not be filmed.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, you and Chip apparently disagree about whether the protests are *still* useful in achieving each of your individual goals. That seems like a substantive disagreement which could lead to an interesting discussion.Report

              • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                “Is it that you’re merely pointing out that lefties hypocrisy opens them up to attack by the right, which is something they really ought to consider if they know what’s good for them?”

                Stillwater you’ve been posting at this board for ten years and you really haven’t figured out that this is what Jaybird’s been on about?

                Like, you don’t remember him talking about Global Warming?

                I mean his whole deal is “I look at the people telling me that I must do the thing because this is a very important time, and I see them not doing the thing, and when I ask them why they aren’t doing the thing even though it’s a very important time, they get angry and tell me that I must do the thing because this is a very important time and if I weren’t being pointlessly contrarian I would understand that.”Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                and you really haven’t figured out that this is what Jaybird’s been on about?

                Except that’s not what he’s on about. He thinks the pro-protestor people are *wrong* to support the protestors because they’re not really protesting. They’re just engaging in a hopped up block party that sometimes turns violent.

                He thinks they should go home.

                Presumably, he supported the protestors back when they actually were, you know, protesting for police reform, despite coronaworries.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Hey if you think the protesters are not sincere that’s an opinion that people can disagree about.

                What I find astonishing is the degree to which the needle on the public’s attitude towards cops and reform have shifted just since late May. I don’t think I’ve ever seen opinion move so sharply so fast.

                Whether you think they are just hooligans or not, its hard to argue against the effectiveness of the protests.

                And in all honesty if the protests lead to actual reform of the police they will end up saving more lives than however many new infections are produced.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Were the people in the CHAZ/CHOP sincere in their opposition to police violence, Chip?Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Some were, some weren’t.

                Certainly the crowds I saw in my neighborhood were a wild mix of people, anywhere from earnest activists to anarchist hooligans to grifters and looters, with maybe a few white supremacist agents provocatuers thrown in.

                I bet that holds true for virtually all protests.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                “Some were, some weren’t. … I bet that holds true for virtually all protests.”

                Huh.Report

              • Avatar CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I don’t have any “hopes” about what people will choose to find interesting. I haven’t, you may have noticed, said a word about the subject that so fascinates you. For the record, I favor people wearing masks and practicing social distancing as best the situation permits, whether in the grocery store or at a protest. I favor proportional enforcement responses, whatever the situation, that don’t make matters worse. I’ll be interested to see what the actual facts in the world are when the post-protest data come in. But fashion, that’s your beat, not mine.Report

              • Avatar veronica d in reply to CJColucci
                Ignored
                says:

                JB’s beat isn’t fashion. It’s resentment.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                When it comes to the issues over why they are engaging in Mostly Peaceful Protests, I am one of the people who is on board.

                Like, I’ve even gotten pushback against stuff like ending QI, getting rid of Police Unions, and so on.

                But in any discussion of how awful it is that people are endangering themselves and others by not following the protocols, it should be noticed that there are quite a few enthusiastic mass gatherings going on and the discussions of the importance of social distancing, for some reason, do not apply to them even as they seem to apply to every other kind of gathering.

                Which is odd.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Why did you call the mask-wearing peaceful protestors “peace rioters” if your concern is that they’re committing a hypocrisy?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                For the same reason that I don’t refer to the White Supremacist Charlottesville Protests as “Statistically Mostly Peaceful”.

                The bad apples make the rest of the barrel smell funny.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Ahhh.Report

              • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                they mostly aren’t wearing masks, sir.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                So not wearing a mask = rioter then. Got it.Report

              • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                “I could go on for days . . . .”

                nice ellipsis there, boomer

                And, y’know, I like how you dug through the first two pages of search results for “Minneappolis protest pictures” to find the ones that showed people (mostly) wearing masks, as opposed to showing ones like this (an example from the first ten results.)

                But, hey, do go on for days, I’d love to see the cherries you pick.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                even in your search the number of pictures of mostly masked crowds is significantly greater then the number of photos of people not wearing masks. I also note that the photos of people unmasked are all tightly cropped small group shots. Which makes it hard to tell if the are prevalent in the crowd or not.

                That aside, the statistics don’t bear out any protest related increase, and masks are cited as a significant contributor:

                https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2020/07/5-reasons-why-the-george-floyd-protests-did-not-increase-covid-19-spread/

                https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/06/19/so-far-george-floyd-protests-not-behind-surges-coronavirus/3226033001/

                https://abc7.com/protest-coronavirus-spike-numbers-by-state-texas-blm/6288697/

                https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article244085697.html

                Finally – if you want to insult me (Ok Boomer) first put some actual intellectual work into it – cliche’s are lazy. Second, I’m 49 so I don’t actually fit that demographic.Report

              • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                “cliche’s are lazy.”

                *cliches

                And if you’re switching over to an argument of “oh well the pictures you’ve chosen were specifically chosen to advance your argument and you’ve ignored the ones that don’t”, then you’re conceding that point to me, so, congratulations I’m glad you agree! And we’re done. They weren’t wearing masks. Go home.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                Most of them were. And I’ll stay thanks.Report

  7. Avatar Chip Daniels
    Ignored
    says:

    I like the implicit assumptions here.

    That those who refuse to wear masks need to be treated like defiant toddlers and gently coaxed into eating their mashed peas.

    “No, no, don’t drink that bleach. And pull that UV lamp out of your bottom, right now! Put it down, put it down, there we go, what a big boy you are! Now, put your mask- no, come here, put it on…If you put on your mask, we will go out for ice cream! That’s ok, there are no demons out there, shhh, now, look how strong and Presidential you look in that mask!”Report

    • Avatar gabriel conroy in reply to Chip Daniels
      Ignored
      says:

      That’s a really unfair response to the OP.Report

    • Avatar veronica d in reply to Chip Daniels
      Ignored
      says:

      I suspect that using the phrase “defiant toddler” doesn’t help.

      To be honest, the tone of the OP does seem a little weird to me. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but yeah, there was something patronizing about the whole thing. It was an odd way to talk about people.

      On the other hand, if more workers go home with all ten fingers, they awesome. I like that idea! Yay fewer workers getting injured!

      I hope more people wear masks because they seem to help and covid sucks and fewer people should get sick.Report

      • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to veronica d
        Ignored
        says:

        Well, sure, when you’ve trained yourself to rigidly suppress all emotion in workplaces and social situations, it can be difficult to understand what empathetic communication looks like.Report

  8. Avatar DensityDuck
    Ignored
    says:

    I wish this post had gotten better comments, but apparently Triggering The Cons is more important than that.Report

    • Avatar Slade the Leveller in reply to DensityDuck
      Ignored
      says:

      I’ll agree with this, but how taking measures to control the spread of an incredibly easy to transmit contagion became a political football will keep sociologists employed for years.Report

      • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Slade the Leveller
        Ignored
        says:

        Its very simple, really.

        First, you have space aliens seeding their DNA into people who are copulating with demons, but the Deep State wants to cover that up so they kidnap child sex slaves from a pizzeria and have them produce masks which are implanted with an RFID chip so as to track Christians and herd them into camps.
        As you can imagine, this will require grabbing guns so right-thinking Patriot Warriors resisted by marching into Wallmart and assaulting the store clerks who are sheeple paid by (((George Soros))) and his globalist cabal.

        You can find all this in the forthcoming Republican Party platform as soon as Q drops a few more breadcrumbs.Report

        • Avatar Freeman in reply to Chip Daniels
          Ignored
          says:

          I just spent a week in a vacation cabin with fundie family, and I can confirm that you just hit the nail on the head without a single bit of exaggeration. They really, sincerely do believe all this crap and want everyone else to believe it too.
          They absolutely believe and stated point-blank that if Trump doesn’t remain in office by hook or by crook that raging mobs will be coming after Christians. There is no way to penetrate the persecution fantasy. My eyes are sore from all the rolling, but it’s all I could do – there’s no reasoning with them.Report

  9. Avatar gabriel conroy
    Ignored
    says:

    I think the OP’s suggestions are the type of thing we, as a polity, need to consider. I suspect they tend to work best in workplace settings (as in the OP’s examples) and in public messaging settings.

    On a person-to-person level, however, it’s hard to engage a stranger about mask wearing. My wife and I were on a bus today. The first time since covid hit. Of about 12 people on the bus, 3 or 4 were wearing a mask properly (i.e., the masks covered the mouth and nose). However, 2 people had no mask at all. The others “wore” their mask in a substandard way: the nose exposed or (for a couple people) the mask under the chin so both the mouth and nose were exposed.

    How can I engage those individuals? There’s probably a way to do it. But I guarantee you that doing so requires a level of finesse and courage that is really, really hard to muster. And frankly, Big City, right now, isn’t the type of place to ask a stranger to do something they evidently don’t want to do.

    One addition to the OP’s suggestions when it comes to workplace safety measures. In some workplaces, the employees (or some of them) would like to follow the safety measures, but are put under a lot of pressure by management to do so quickly . True, management says, “all employees must follow all safety rules at all times.” But in practice, the managers want what they want RIGHT NOW. I suspect the author would agree with me here.Report

    • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to gabriel conroy
      Ignored
      says:

      I’d been imagining a poster like “when you wear the mask like this: (mouth only) the virus sees this: (picture modified to make the nose look GIGANTIC and the mask tiny)”

      Then I thought “yeah maybe that won’t be received the way I’m expecting”.

      The other one I’ve seen is “wearing your mask like this (mouth only) is like wearing your pants like this (butt completely hanging out)” but that’s not suitable for all-ages audiences.

      Seriously, though, I think that’s got to be up to the management, and the management has to have the strength of character (and the confidence in their position) to enforce the mask rules. And you’re certainly correct that, right now, law and society are not on the side of people putting restrictions and conditions on strangers’ behavior.

      Heh. Maybe the store could hire a shill — some white man who can loudly and visibly attempt to enter without wearing a mask properly, and visibly get chastised and put a mask on properly, because that way the store management can say “all right other shoppers, you see that guy? Don’t be that guy, because that guy is an asshole.”

      *****

      “in practice, the managers want what they want RIGHT NOW.”

      That’s why they talk about things like “safety culture” at a workplace; because not only do the workers have to recognize that the Safety Bullshit is for their benefit, the people in charge have to recognize that Safety Bullshit is part of the process just like Mixing The Glue and Torquing The Bolts.Report

      • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to DensityDuck
        Ignored
        says:

        How bad is a mouth-only mask, really? My understanding, which may be out of date, is that masks don’t actually do a great job of protecting you, but will stop you from spreading the virus if you gave it.

        It is also my understanding that the virus is mostly spread by saliva droplets, which are emitted at a much higher rate when speaking. Sneezing is going to be an issue, obviously, but sneezing is not a symptom of COVID-19. Is the virus shed in significant amounts through normal nasal exhalation? Is covering only the mouth providing 50% of the protection? 75%? 90+? Maybe it’s enough when riding a bus with open windows. And the bus should definitely have the windows open, because ventilation is key.Report

        • Avatar DensityDuck in reply to Brandon Berg
          Ignored
          says:

          “How bad is a mouth-only mask, really?”

          It’s basically pointless. Such protection as a mask affords the wearer is from blocking direct access to the nose, and most people habitually breathe through their noses unless they make a conscious effort to breathe through their mouth — which means that they’re exhaling viruses.Report

          • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to DensityDuck
            Ignored
            says:

            Right, but my understanding is that the primary value of surgical masks is preventing the virus from being exhaled, not from being inhaled. P95 masks form a tight seal and filter incoming air, but surgical masks let all kinds of air in. So if most of the benefit of a surgical mask is filtering exhaled air, then the value of covering the nose depends on the extent to which nasal shedding of the virus occurs in a- or presymptomatic patients.Report

            • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to Brandon Berg
              Ignored
              says:

              From the FDA:

              If worn properly, a surgical mask is meant to help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter that may contain germs (viruses and bacteria), keeping it from reaching your mouth and nose.

              Protection of others from the wearer appears to be incidental.Report

  10. Avatar Philip H
    Ignored
    says:

    I’ll just leave this here:

    The basic definition of reactance theory is that people try to establish or regain a freedom after losing or perceiving it to be lost or threatened, which causes them to resist. When I read this, my first reaction was that this seems exactly like what we are seeing with all of the whining, protests, and pushback “in the name of freedom and personal rights” concerning masks and social distancing policies.

    Read more:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/marshallshepherd/2020/07/17/3-ways-scientists-have-been-right-about-covid-19-and-why-people-still-arent-listening/#42e7cab96b68Report

  11. Avatar Oscar Gordon
    Ignored
    says:

    I like this as a clincher:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6cTDGqcUpAReport

    • Avatar Slade the Leveller in reply to Oscar Gordon
      Ignored
      says:

      I saw that on FB yesterday. It was really astounding how close he could get.Report

    • Avatar veronica d in reply to Oscar Gordon
      Ignored
      says:

      “How a handyman with a low-key case of pyromania saved America.”Report

      • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to veronica d
        Ignored
        says:

        A couple weeks ago, you said that James Damore had a “public swing towards the alt-right” after he got fired. I was disappointed, because the memo had seemed pretty reasonable, and not at all what an actual bigot would write. Long story short: I read through his entire Twitter history, and was unable to find even one tweet consistent with your claim, or any corroboration elsewhere. All I found were some weaselly media stories trying to tie him to the alt-right because the alt-right had a field day with his story.

        What was your basis for this claim?Report

  12. Avatar Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    An example from the Timeline:

    For the record, I think that all of these people are likely idiots. I can’t tell, at this distance, if they’re wearing masks but I’m not sure that they are.

    Additionally, it’s one thing to be socially distancing in direct sunlight. Quite another to hang out after dark.

    These people are endangering themselves and others and society in general. They are being exceptionally selfish.Report

    • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to Jaybird
      Ignored
      says:

      I still think ventilation is more important than sunlight. That says sunlight reduced the half-life of aerosolized viruses to 90 seconds. That’s plenty of time for one person to exhale and another to inhale. What you need is for air not to go out one person’s mouth and right into another person’s nose, which is why ventilation is more important.Report

  13. Avatar veronica d
    Ignored
    says:

    One question for the OP: your analysis doesn’t seem to touch on the presence of conspiracy theories. Certainly many people are ignoring public health advise based on garden variety irresponsibility. However, there is a fairly large subset of people engaged in active covid denial. This gets support from many right wing media outlets.

    Do you think your strategy addresses these people? In either case, how would you adapt it to better do so?Report

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