Harsh Your Mellow Monday: Biden Our Time, Isolated, And A Greek Tragedy of Fried Cheese

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Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has since lived and traveled around the world several times over. Though frequently writing about politics out of a sense of duty and love of country, most of the time he would prefer discussions on history, culture, occasionally nerding on aviation, and his amateur foodie tendencies. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter @four4thefire and his writing website Yonderandhome.com

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  1. Avatar Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    Here’s one of the problems with Biden: it’s the twenty minutes that “*TRUMP* put *CHILDREN* in *CAGES*” was seen as a meaningful argument. “Abolish ICE! It’s monstrous to put *CHILDREN* in *CAGES*.”

    Then pictures of 2014 and 2015 will come out when the Obama administration put children in cages.

    Would you vote for a man who put *CHILDREN* in *CAGES*?

    Well… you have to understand…

    And it comes across like the problem with Trump isn’t a moral one. It’s an aesthetic one.

    Which is fine! It’s okay to not like things! But the moral position ends up looking like a moral posture and it’ll be hard to hit Trump on *CHILDREN* in *CAGES* when he runs against Biden for the same reason that Trump’s treatment of women couldn’t be attacked to the fullest when he was running against Clinton.Report

    • Avatar Chip Daniels
      Ignored
      says:

      Who are these people who are seeing things this way?

      Can we speak to them?Report

      • Avatar Stillwater
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        says:

        Well, Jaybird is one. You can speak to him if you want to.Report

      • Avatar Jaybird
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        says:

        I’m afraid I need more precision in your question.

        Are you asking me to find people who find (or found) it unacceptable to put *CHILDREN* in *CAGES* a few short months ago?

        Because I am pretty sure that I can find one of those in the comments to this very website.

        Do you want me to find someone who waxes philosophically about the difficulties of enforcing a border after having the pictures from 2014/2015 shown to him after complaining about *CHILDREN* in *CAGES*?

        I suppose I’d need to find the right comment first.

        Do you want me to find someone who will argue about the importance of voting for Biden anyway?

        What are you asking?Report

        • Avatar Chip Daniels
          Ignored
          says:

          You are telling us what Biden’s position “comes across” as, what it “looks like”.

          It “looks like” this, to whom?
          You personally? Or American voters in significant numbers?

          The reason I ask, is that the underlying premise of your assertion seems unfounded.

          Your assertion is that there is a logical disconnect between Biden criticizing Trump for putting children in cages while he did the same thing, and voters will notice this and logically conclude he is being insincere.

          But all the evidence we have of voter behavior suggests the opposite, that voters don’t care about logical inconsistencies one bit.

          If they did, Trump would be losing West Virginia by 20 points because his position on putting coal miners back to work will be contrasted with employment figures showing no such thing is happening.

          And it will “come across” as Trump being a liar, and it will “look like” he is just another politician who says whatever he needs to to buy a vote.

          But the empirical evidence is that the people of West Virginia don’t see it this way.

          So I don’t know why the people of America will see Biden the way you think they should.Report

          • Avatar Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            You are telling us what Biden’s position “comes across” as, what it “looks like”.

            No. I’m not.

            Your assertion is that there is a logical disconnect between Biden criticizing Trump for putting children in cages while he did the same thing, and voters will notice this and logically conclude he is being insincere.

            No. It’s not.

            But all the evidence we have of voter behavior suggests the opposite, that voters don’t care about logical inconsistencies one bit.

            This is certainly true. Change “But” to “And” and we’ve got a sentence that, with some light reworking, I could put next to my statement about how it comes across like the problem with Trump isn’t a moral one. It’s an aesthetic one.Report

            • Avatar greginak
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              says:

              Jay just own your statements. You think objections to trump are just aesthetic. Right?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
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                says:

                You think objections to trump are just aesthetic. Right?

                By saying “objections”, it seems to imply an “all” in there.

                I certainly do *NOT* think that *ALL* objections to Trump are aesthetic.

                But I certainly *DO* think that there are a number of objections that are aesthetic.

                And some of those aesthetic objections wear the sheep’s clothing of moral objection.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater
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                says:

                I think Jaybird is making a point about what constitutes good politics, eg., not opening up yourself to easy attacks. That’s it.

                Not sure why this is hard to figure out.

                Remember when Jaybird mentioned that Hillary cheerfully saying “we’re gonna put a lot of miners outa work” was bad politics?

                Of course you do. You argued that he was wrong then too. 🙂Report

              • Avatar greginak
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                says:

                Umm huh. Jay is saying a shallow argument will be made against Biden. Undeniably true. I replied with how he can and likely will respond. Pols make crappy or disingenuous arguments all the time and they are responded to. It seems like Jay is making the “trumps attacks are all powerful, bow before them” argument. That has never been true and it won’t be. He will go full shit cannon on Biden but he was going to do that on any candidate.

                So Biden lines up Castro, et al to go out to speak to Latino communities for months. Will that blunt the “gah cages” argument. I think it willj, but we’ll see. Trump seems preternaturally unpopular with POC in general which won’t help him with this line of attack. How about if Obama is out their stumping for Biden. Who will D’s listen to more?

                Biden also can’t undo what was done as opposed to Hills making some less then completely well crafted arguments on the stump.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
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                says:

                Jay is saying a shallow argument will be made against Biden.

                No.

                I’m saying that an attack will be made against Trump. Specifically: “His administration put children in cages! You shouldn’t vote for someone who would do that!”

                And then I’m gaming out what will happen in response.

                Greg, out of curiosity, would you have a problem voting for a man who put children in cages?Report

            • Avatar Chip Daniels
              Ignored
              says:

              If you’re not telling us what Biden’s position “comes across” as, then why did you say “it comes across like the problem with Trump isn’t a moral one…”

              I mean, seriously, these are your very own words.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                “the problem with Trump” doesn’t refer to the problem that Biden has with Trump.

                It refers to the people who understand how important it is to enforce the laws that are on the books and, yes, sometimes this results in people being detained under circumstances that are less than ideal in this fallen world.

                It’s not a criticism of Biden’s position. Who knows what his position is? Other than, you know, being part of the previous administration.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Again, you’re not offering us Jaybird’s opinion of Trump or Biden, but Jaybird’s opinion of how other people will see this.

                And this becomes unfalsifiable since we don’t have any way of letting these people speak for themselves.

                It could be that the “babies in cages” is a terrible message which will backfire;
                Or it could also be that it is a brilliant attack that propels Biden to the White House.

                Neither position can be supported by empirical evidence at this point.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
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                says:

                My opinions are uninteresting: Both Trump and Biden are boobs. I will be voting for Vermin Supreme.

                “Neither position can be supported by empirical evidence at this point.”

                The only empirical evidence I have are whether I can get you to answer the question I asked Greg: would you have a problem voting for a man who put children in cages?Report

              • Avatar greginak
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                says:

                I thought i was clear that the “gah cages” was a shallow argument for people who didn’t know the diff between Obama’s and Trumps policies.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                You’ve certainly made it clear that you don’t want to answer the question.

                Mind if I re-ask it?

                “Would you have a problem voting for a man who put children in cages?”Report

              • Avatar greginak
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                says:

                Biden yeah sure. Obama, yup vote for him again. The thing you are missing is i know how you are disingenuously framing the issue and what the big differences are between what Obama did and what trump did. So save the bull shit for others. Biden will be far far far better then trump. Much more humane and treat immigrants well. That seems like a good thing to me.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
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                says:

                So many memories.

                I think we should seriously consider whether people are really voting about immigration policy at all but merely voting about how they want the media to cover immigration policy.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Enthusiastically yes!Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
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                says:

                I would too.

                That’s why I’m voting for Vermin Supreme.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels
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                says:

                The fact that you see these as equivalent, is how we get President Biden.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Darn it, I forgot a more clever response:

                “Would you vote for a man who wants the federal government to take command of private businesses?”

                “Me too, that’s why I’m voting for Biden.”Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Adding: The degree of cleverness in the exchange is proportionate to the stupidity of the interlocutor.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
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                says:

                They don’t have to be equivalent. They merely have to be equivalent enough for people to switch from “THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!” to “well, you have to understand” when they realize that the pictures were taken under Obama’s administration.

                Here’s a link from Snopes for you to enjoyReport

              • Avatar Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Well…once again…
                Who are these people?

                Why should I think they exist in any significant numbers?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
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                says:

                As I said below:

                Peter Daou famously argued that Berniebros cost Clinton the election.

                I don’t know whether he’s right. I will, however, say that I’m experiencing hella major déjà vu.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                So, “NO” then.

                Because if you are saying that a handful of Berniebros are going to refuse to vote for Biden because of Obama’s immigration stance, then the empirical evidence of the primary season is that no, these guys don’t exist or vote in any significant numbers.

                Oh, they exist alright, but like Jews 4 Jesus or Blackkklansmen, their sum total electoral weight is less than the polling margin of error.

                And its also not even clear that the Berniebros even disagree with either Obama or Trump’s immigration policy.Report

              • Avatar greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                Virtue successfully signaled.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
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                says:

                Would you say that someone who opposed putting children in cages but then advocates for voting for Biden would be successfully signalling virtue?Report

              • Avatar greginak
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                says:

                It depends if they had a frickin clue what they were talking about or were just doing some recreational arguing.Report

      • Avatar Saul Degraw
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        says:

        Jaybird either knows a lot of Trumpists who would never vote Democratic and/or Dirtbag Lefties who would rather watch the world burn instead of voting for Joe Biden. For all we know, Jaybird could be in either category himself.

        But the stock market is tanking and we are likely heading to a recession if not depression.Report

        • Avatar Jaybird
          Ignored
          says:

          Saul, I have friends who are Trumpists.
          I have friends who are pretty hardcore lefties who would never vote for Biden.

          And I’m defining “friends” here as “I’ve invited them to my house and I have made meals for them” and not “I ask how their day is as I purchase a pack of gum” or “I have retweeted them”.

          And, get this, I’m not ashamed of this.Report

          • Avatar greginak
            Ignored
            says:

            There are D’s and indy’s who would never have voted for bernie. Sort of works that way with any canidate. You aren’t really proving anything.Report

            • Avatar Jaybird
              Ignored
              says:

              Saul was trying to insinuate that I was friends with people with certain opinions.

              I wasn’t trying to “prove” anything as much as confirm that, yes, I did indeed have friends with those certain opinions.

              (I also have friends who voted for Clinton and friends who, I imagine, will vote for Biden and explain to me that, seriously, I have to understand…)Report

              • Avatar greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                Wow you have a wide variety of friends. Okay then. The point still is the point.Report

              • Avatar George Turner
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                says:

                I think the point is that Jay needs to isolate himself from his wide variety of friends until this WuFlu pandemic is over.

                And he needs to block Tom Hanks on Twitter. That guy definitely has it.Report

            • Avatar Saul Degraw
              Ignored
              says:

              It only matters when Jaybird knows people who are that way.Report

    • Avatar greginak
      Ignored
      says:

      Simpletons with simpleton. So? Biden will start talking about DACA and the endorsement of prominent latinos pols and leaders. He can talk about refugees let in versus shut out, etc, etc. He’ll talk about all the legal immigration during the O years. It’s not aesthetic and those that only see that won’t listen to much anyway.Report

      • Avatar Jaybird
        Ignored
        says:

        “So?”

        Well, do you remember when Clinton was running against Trump and how it wasn’t really possible to truly and effectively attack Trump for his treatment of women?

        If you do, then that’s why.Report

        • Avatar greginak
          Ignored
          says:

          So no attacks work against anybody ever? He was attacked plenty for his treatment of women and his behavior appalled many people leading to some women ditching the R’s. By your logic there is no attack that could ever work against trump as long as he can throw something back suggesting that someone is sort of the same as him.Report

          • Avatar Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            So no attacks work against anybody ever?

            Some of them do.Report

            • Avatar greginak
              Ignored
              says:

              And some don’t. Well we have covered a lot of ground here. You haven’t stated why this attack will be golden and the responses won’t work.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                It’s because I’m making an analogy to when Clinton was running against Trump and how it wasn’t really possible to truly and effectively attack Trump for his treatment of women.

                If what you remember is that the attacks against Trump on that front worked just fine, the problem was racism, I suppose you will have no idea why I see a handful of problems coming on the horizon.Report

              • Avatar greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                Which isn’t really responding to the counters Biden can make, how Biden is different from Clinton and that the attacks on trumps treatment did work. I, nor you, can say exactly how well those attacks worked, but i remember many women being disgusted with Trump and R women saying they were ditching the party over him. Will people believe Obama, Castro and other Latino pols stumping for Biden? Are there any attacks which will work on trump for which there may not be some framing to turn it into bsdi.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                i remember many women being disgusted with Trump and R women saying they were ditching the party over him.

                And then what happened?

                Will people believe Obama, Castro and other Latino pols stumping for Biden?

                I don’t know. Did they stump for Clinton?

                Are there any attacks which will work on trump for which there may not be some framing to turn it into bsdi.

                I believe that Bernie, for example, could argue against Trump putting children in cages.

                In the same way that he could have hit Trump’s sexism in a different way than Clinton was able to hit him on.Report

              • Avatar greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                They’ll be stumping for Biden which seems like the issue. What are the poll digits for latinos and trump now?

                Yeah bernie could have made some attacks and been susceptible to whole lot of other attacks. Strengths and weaknesses to everybody.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                “What are the poll digits for latinos and trump now?”

                According to the Atlantic, they’re good/bad enough (according to your point of view) that the Democrats need be concerned.

                Here are the first couple of paragraphs:

                President Donald Trump has done almost everything he can to anger Latino voters. And yet, his support among this crucial portion of the electorate remains surprisingly consistent. After the 2016 election, exit polls analyzed by the Pew Research Center showed that 28 percent of Latino voters supported Trump; today, 30 percent support him.

                This percentage may not seem high. But consider what the number means for the Democrats: Displeasure with the president over the past three years has not led to an increase in support for the opposing party.

                That’s from about a month ago.Report

              • Avatar greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                yeah about 30% of Latino vote R though Obama did a bit better then that as I remember. So that seems about par so far. I guess Obama didn’t get punished for his actions. I wonder how they will respond to O stumping for biden.Report

              • Avatar Michael Cain
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                says:

                2018 might be instructive. Consider Dem gains in the Southwest, where Latinos are the predominant minority: Southern CA flipped multiple House seats; NV flipped a Senate seat; AZ flipped a House seat and a Senate seat; UT flipped a House seat; NM flipped a House seat; and CO flipped a House seat and a legislative chamber. The Republicans flipped nothing. The most recent AZ polls (rated A+ by 538, for whatever that’s worth) have Biden leading Trump narrowly, and Kelly leading McSally by slightly more.Report

            • Avatar InMD
              Ignored
              says:

              If you really want to get meta though I think it’s fair to wonder how viscerally connected Biden is to these issues in the eyes of the real electorate (i.e. not OTers). On paper Biden has a lot of the same reactionary and/or problematic baggage that made it really hard for Clinton to attack Trump’s most outrageous actions and positions.

              On the other I’m not sure any of it is pinned to Biden the way it was to Clinton. Even during the Obama years when he was at his most visible the line was that he was a gaffe-prone boob, not hypocritical evil incarnate.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                On the other I’m not sure any of it is pinned to Biden the way it was to Clinton.

                I don’t know.

                I do know that there is a lot of footage out there and the Sandernistas are doing what they can to communicate displeasure with Biden’s former views.

                Peter Daou famously argued that Berniebros cost Clinton the election.

                I don’t know whether he’s right. I will, however, say that I’m experiencing hella major déjà vu.Report

  2. Avatar Aaron David
    Ignored
    says:

    I am just going to risk all social stigma, and speak truth to power; cheese is gross.

    Now, go ahead. Fight me.Report

  3. Avatar LeeEsq
    Ignored
    says:

    Biden is basically going to be our Konrad Adenauer if he wins the election. He is much better at doing the entire fireside chat, comforting the electorate thing than Trump, Sanders, and anybody else. He looks and acts Presidential. Trump most definitely does not.Report

  4. Avatar Pinky
    Ignored
    says:

    The new McDonald’s Double Big Mac and small fries has fewer calories. If you get the large fries, it has more, but it’s still lower in fat. And yes, the Double Big Mac is what you think it is.Report

  5. Avatar North
    Ignored
    says:

    I mean it is Hardees. I knew as soon as you mentioned that the the end of the story would be “and the food was disgusting”.

    On Biden and Bernie? Eh, I guess. But the attacks Bernie made most likely won’t be made by Trump because the man doesn’t even know the policy. Trump’ll, presumably, be spoon fed the attack lines and then will garble them furiously and no one will know what on earth he’s talking about. So then it boils down to Trump being Trump and Biden being Biden; in that match up Biden wins. I do agree, however, that Biden needs to make up his fishing mind about what he’s going to say about Hunters employment. It was legal, assuredly and so far there’s absolutely no evidence that Burisima got any benefit out of employing Hunter but Biden still needs to have something to say on the matter and his current position of getting angry because his kid is being attacked is useless.Report

    • Avatar Aaron David
      Ignored
      says:

      Yeah, Biden will ripost with a “You’re a Dog Faced Poney Soldier!”

      And follow it up with “you are a liar and full of shit, ma’am. Lets do a push up contest!”

      All while facing a statue of Napoleon.Report

      • Avatar North
        Ignored
        says:

        Personally I love when Republicans keep saying that Biden is non-functionally deranged from age because it lowers the expectations so the actual, far from scintillating, Biden can easily clear it.Report

        • Avatar Aaron David
          Ignored
          says:

          No. He can’t.

          In all seriousness, the left is going down a real bad, dark path with this. Not only does Biden fail to have the chops, the D’s are doind a major disservice to themselves in thinking he can pass that bar. He has failed to be cogent when he has to speak off the cuff, has been viscious in his responses, and gets flustered quickly. The web is full of video clips of him doing things like this. I might joke around a bit about it, but I have a close family member on this path. It isn’t pretty.

          All of that, and the fact the D’s are putting themselves into corner with him. At this point there is no one else.Report

          • Avatar North
            Ignored
            says:

            He can, he has, he will. The web is full of clips of every public figure doing various embarrassing takes. And choosing Biden is certainly a better bet than Bernie. As for vicious responses when speaking off the cuff and meandering when talking to crowds? Currently that’s the right’s qualifications for the presidency so Biden should be fine.

            But I would certainly prefer if he names his veep pick sooner than later.Report

            • Avatar George Turner
              Ignored
              says:

              To anyone who’s lost a relative to Alzheimer’s, as I have, Biden’s frequent gaps are very disturbing. He can’t even get through brief appearances without it becoming obvious. He’s already seems worse than Reagan did in 1994, when Reagan announced he’d been diagnosed with it.

              He’s already edging close to 25th Amendment territory.Report

  6. Avatar Saul Degraw
    Ignored
    says:

    https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/shelter-in-place-San-Francisco-Mayor-London-Breed-15135075.php

    The SF-Bay Area is essentially on quarantine until April 7th. Words like “essential” and “necessary” are doing lots of heavy lifting. A lot of offices are figuring out how to how to handle things remotely at the last minute.

    I suspect that more things are going to fall because of dominoes and more courts will shut down for at least a few weeks.

    Trumpists will all claim it is an overreaction.Report

  7. Avatar George Turner
    Ignored
    says:

    The governor and AG of Ohio tried to shut down tomorrow’s primaries so all the state’s Democrats don’t get infected with the WuFlu, arguing that people shouldn’t have to choose between their life and exercising their right to vote. But a county judge stopped them and said the voting must go on.

    One of the reasons to have an executive branch is to make the hard calls like that, and one of the worsening abuses of the judicial branch is to render the government unable to exert its duly granted powers to make decisions and protect the public. But heck, the GOP folks can skip the primary and stay alive for November, when it counts.Report

    • Avatar Brandon Berg
      Ignored
      says:

      I wonder if this situation will help Sanders by disproportionately keeping older, wiser voters away from the polls.Report

      • Avatar George Turner
        Ignored
        says:

        It’s bound to, though I don’t know to what extent. They should at least hand out disposable gloves so people don’t have to touch the same voting machine that a hundred other people just touched, but I doubt many poll workers thought of that.

        The oubreak is one of those things that should invalidate an election, perhaps like holding one when there’s two feet of snow on the ground so that only people who own four-wheel drive trucks can vote. It’s a filter on exercising the franchise, and in this case the elderly and people with lung ailments and other concerns will be partially excluded.Report

      • Avatar George Turner
        Ignored
        says:

        More chaos. The governor of Ohio called off tomorrow’s election despite the judge’s ruling. Poll workers don’t have their equipment set up and won’t be ready in the morning.

        PJ Media story

        I would say they’ve [ insert your favorite euphamism ] on tomorrow’s vote, and should just schedule a do-over whenever the virus crisis is past. That may push things back too close to the Democratic convention, however. Though the candidates may think this is the end of the world, or the end of democracy, keep in mind that the citizens of Ohio and other states have shown, through their actions these last few days, that they think politicians are less important than toilet paper.Report

  8. Avatar LeeEsq
    Ignored
    says:

    So apparently all the sings of there being some type of big influenza pandemic were out there and Trump ignored them despite experts trying to warn him. Its just like 9/11. There was lots of evidence that Al-Qaeda was planning something big and it was actively ignored simply. As a result millions of people across the globe lost their lives in 9/11 and the follow up. Now many more are going to suffer because the most ill-suited person ever to hold the office of the Presidency, somebody who sees his role as enriching himself and inflicting pain on people he hates, couldn’t bring himself to do the right thing.

    https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/03/16/trump-inauguration-warning-scenario-pandemic-132797?__twitter_impression=true

    We are ruled by a literal kakiocracy and there seem to be no end of idiots willing to perpetuate. You have Gohmert and Tomey holding up a Coronavirus recovery bill You have morons dazzled by the disingenuous offers of Romney and Cotton, even though they have not introduced any legislation in the Senate. Trump is continuing to be a bile filled Nero and Caligula gone to seed. The Jacobin crowd has gone full KPD and is claiming that the Democratic Party are social fascists so you might as well vote Nazi. You know how many countless millions across the world are going to suffer because of this.

    There is one moral choice in the November elections. That is to go and vote for the Democratic Party on every office up for grabs. Federal, state, and local. The Republican Party is a death cult. They can not be negotiated and reasoned with. They must be eliminated and knocked out. Anybody who is considering voting Republican or sitting this one out or dividing their vote is a moral monster. The only thing they have is blood on their hands.Report

    • Avatar George Turner
      Ignored
      says:

      In case you weren’t paying attention, Trump was the first world leader to take action. He moved to shut down travel weeks before the European countries did. The Democrats all slammed him for xenophobia, and are still at it, still insisting that travel restrictions are racist and don’t work. If the Democrats were in charge we’d already be dying by the thousands from corona virus because they still don’t even support stopping airline flights from Wuhan. In a similar vein, Trudeau only blocked fights from China, Italy, Germany, and even Iran – today. Flights would arrive and people simply had to go to a touch screen and answer “No” to whether they came from Hubai province. Passengers snapped pictures of the screening “test” Canada was using and apparently shamed the government into at least acting like maybe there was a contagious disease out there, somewhere.

      Bernie called the outbreak “Ebola” and Biden called it “SARS”. Does either one even know what planet they’re on?Report

    • Avatar George Turner
      Ignored
      says:

      Nancy held the bill up for a week by refusing to bring it to the floor, and then tried to sabotage it with special provisions. Now the bill is stuck in the House because the House is in recess, and Nancy is the person who decided the House should just shut down and go home. Gohmert wouldn’t be insisting that somebody first read the House bill before sending it on if Nancy hadn’t been caught trying to pull so many fast ones with it.

      She is simply unable to do her job.Report

    • Avatar Stillwater
      Ignored
      says:

      Another way to view it: the bill Pelosi negotiated (in private) with Mnuchin was inadequate so voting on it *should* be delayed until a better bill can be written. As it is, though, the revised bill apparently also sucks. So, you know, there’s that….Report

  9. Avatar Saul Degraw
    Ignored
    says:

    Dow is down below 20,000. Trump proposes 850 billion dollar “stimulus.” The biggest share is a payroll tax cut which benefits the wealthiest and is a back door way to gut Social Security and Medicare.Report

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