A Panel Discussion Worth Discussing

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Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has since lived and traveled around the world several times over. Though frequently writing about politics out of a sense of duty and love of country, most of the time he would prefer discussions on history, culture, occasionally nerding on aviation, and his amateur foodie tendencies. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter @four4thefire.

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13 Responses

  1. Avatar greginak
    Ignored
    says:

    Wooo…Party!!! Wild NYE!!! Any way, hard to object with this in general though it does suggest that there were very much not fine people on both f’n sides. There was quite a bit of push back against nazi/white sup/ etc type protesters not that long ago. It was in the news. It did sadly became a partisan issue.

    Nobody knows what the black hebrew isrealites are so people don’t know what to make of that nutbag. Fwiw religious fanatics are typically bad news.Report

    • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to greginak
      Ignored
      says:

      To be slightly fair, they are a pretty fringe and small group.

      On the other hand, I think everyone on our side is walking on eggshells over this.Report

      • Avatar InMD in reply to Saul Degraw
        Ignored
        says:

        The Black Hebrews are well known by anyone who has spent time working in DC. They’re notorious for heckling in front of Union Station, around China Town, and various places on the mall, plus they had (may still have) one of the most bizarre public access shows ever made.

        Regarding the eggshells, assuming you’re talking about the broader left, that wouldn’t need to be the case if the coalition wasn’t increasingly fronted by people obsessed with racial sophistry insisting certain types of racial/religious bigotry are acceptable. Instead a principled stand could be made against the right wing version, but choices have been made I suppose.Report

      • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw
        Ignored
        says:

        Our side is walking on egg shells because of Vulgar Intersectionality. They divide the world into oppressor white people vs. oppressed people of color. Jews don’t fit into this cosmology well and neither does Anti-Semitism from people of color.Report

  2. Avatar Aaron David
    Ignored
    says:

    WOW! Cueing this up for when the wife falls asleep!

    But seriously, this could be illuminating.Report

  3. Avatar Kazzy
    Ignored
    says:

    I grew up in a community that had large populations of people of color (primarily African-American) and Jews, ranging from orthodox/Hasidic to reformed. I saw first hand anti-semitism from African-Americans. And anti-Black racism from Jews. Along with all the other “run-of-the-mill” anti-Semtism and anti-Black racism. I also saw ways in which the community actively worked to resist all of that and some interesting coalitions that formed, particularly between African-Americans and Jews.

    I guess my perspective is just really out of line with the mainstream. I’m not surprised that anti-Semitism from African-Americans exists; I saw it with my own two eyes. I have no issue calling it out as wrong. It’s wrong. It was wrong 30 years ago when I saw it on the playground and it’s wrong now when people are being attacked in their homes while celebrating. Wrong wrong wrong.

    To me, the only reason the race or background of the person who is demonstrating the anti-Semitism (or any other form of hate matters) is because it may give insights into the causes and how to best respond. It in no way impacts how wrong it is.

    But, again, maybe the unique context in which I grew up just gives me a wholly different perspective than most.

    Did people really not know that anti-Semitism from African-Americans is sometimes a thing? Do people really not think it’s wrong?Report

    • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
      Ignored
      says:

      Nobody disagrees that it’s wrong.

      The disagreement is over how much the White people condemning it are salivating at the opportunity to be racist in a socially acceptable way.

      This is why it’s important to discuss how complicated the situation is.Report

    • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Kazzy
      Ignored
      says:

      I’ve seen these things too.

      I’ve also had the odd experience of having an older German Jewish man , and another Sephardic Jewish man, each on separate occasions tell me solemnly that you “can never trust an Israeli”.

      In the second instance, he complained bitterly that he started out trusting the Israeli guy on the idea that hey, we’re both from the same tribe in a new land, we gotta be kin, right?

      And of course he was embittered when it turned out that Israelis are just like everyone else, as prone to being assholes as being saints.

      I know that when I post stuff about Trumpists or cops behaving in awful and racist ways, white people are very quick to #notallwipipo and huffily demand to be treated as unique individuals instead of a homogenous group.

      Or how I note that Quillette has two main types of articles- One, where we are urged to bravely accept the natural and inherent differences in genders and races; And two, the “Help, I’m suffering discrimination because I am a white male!”

      Which is why I don’t see illiberal or bigoted attitudes on the left side of the aisle as “problematic” or “complicated” or difficult to explain.Report

      • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels
        Ignored
        says:

        I don’t think my view on this is as strong as LeeEsq but I see a lot of people dancing around some uncomfortable truths here. The essay in the Atlantic by Benjamin Witte is correct. Lots of people use anti-Semitism as a prop. The right-wingers find some intemperate language from a college student advocating for Palestine and say “See see, the Dems are the real anti-Semites” meanwhile they ignore that Giulliani called himself more Jewish than Soros while simultaneously employing anti-Semitic stereotypes against Soros. Meanwhile, lots of liberals are clearly more comfortable with denouncing anti-Semitism when it comes dressed in jackboots, a Hugo Boss outfit, and a Swastika. Or they will denounce anti-Semitism broadly and do as many mental backflips as needed to avoid addressing the idea that there might be anti-Semitic views in African-Americans or other minorities.

        I sort of get it because of the long history of racist oppression against blacks and not wanting to feed right wing concern trolls but it is also not great.Report

  4. Avatar Kazzy
    Ignored
    says:

    I concur with Saul here and have definitely seen folks use anti-Semitism as a tool to bash their “enemies” but otherwise seem pretty indifferent to the anti-Semitism itself. I don’t think this is necessarily unique to anti-Semitism but what does seem different is that it seems to happen on both sides (of the traditional divide/spectrum) with neither side really embracing Jews as a whole or the cause of eradicating anti-Semitism.Report

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