Wednesday Writs for 9/11: Willie Francis is Executed, Twice

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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43 Responses

  1. Doctor Jay says:

    [L2] I feel that there must be more to this story. Why would onlookers and protesters even get arrested? Why would anyone, police or otherwise, even care that much. I mean, sure, who doesn’t like protesters, but still…Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Doctor Jay says:

      Same reason most protesters get arrested, I’d imagine. Disturbing the peace, things like that. It really doesn’t matter why, though. It’s still not a judge’s call. The prosecutor has the discretion to dismiss.Report

      • Doctor Jay in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        You are quite right. I was trying to grasp the emotional subtext of that piece. Why would anyone (such as the judge in question) get so wound up to do something like that? Why would a defense attorney also get wound up enough to get herself put in handcuffs? Not that it was especially fair for him to do that.

        I don’t need to know that to understand the judge was out of line, but I’m curious.Report

        • Em Carpenter in reply to Doctor Jay says:

          I don’t think reading case law to a judge who is not following the law is “getting wound up.”Report

          • PD Shaw in reply to Em Carpenter says:

            She was interrupting the judge, after the judge warned her to stop. Did she have any job to do in that court room beside persuading the judge?Report

            • veronica d in reply to PD Shaw says:

              After all, judges are always reasonable, and clearly it will always be possible to convince them of facts. No judge will act like a childish brat drunk with power.

              We might question the prudence of the attorney in this case, but let’s not pretend that “convincing the judge” was an option. “Placating a shithead while preparing for appeal” would perhaps have been a realistic course.

              On the other hand, sometimes a night in jail is worth it, according to one’s conscious. Civil disobedience has a proud tradition, even in the face of a stubborn and horrible judge.Report

              • dragonfrog in reply to veronica d says:

                It might even work out to the defence attorney’s ultimate advantage – getting such a colourful demonstration on the record of just how unreasonable the judge is being.Report

    • Aaron David in reply to Doctor Jay says:

      Large scale intimidation and thuggery was on display on the streets of Boston this weekend as antifa and other extreme leftists bullied and harassed anyone they deemed divergent from their groupthink. They spit and punched and yelled hateful things at law enforcement and by Saturday night there were 36 arrests and 4 injured officers, according to Boston police. Nine people face charges of assault and battery on police officers.

      -Boston Herald

      Apparently they were throwing rocks and bags of urine at officers.Report

      • Aaron David in reply to Aaron David says:

        Wait, scratch that last sentence, that was from an earlier incident.Report

      • veronica d in reply to Aaron David says:

        No link? Who wrote that?

        I know numerous people who were there, and while the whole event was big enough that no one person saw everything, there were certainly instances of unprovoked police harassment and violence. Nor was everyone arrested guilty of any violence.

        Note that Rollins isn’t dismissing every charge, just the minor charges.

        Eight others have been arraigned on more serious violent charges, such as assault and battery on a police officer, and Rollins’ office is seeking to prosecute those cases. A total of 36 people were arrested.

        (From https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/09/09/sjc-justice-rules-in-favor-of-rachael-rollins-in-feud-with-boston-municipal-court-judge )

        It seems some people at the protest were indeed violent — at least they are so accused. However, many arrests were of peaceful protestors. Much of the so-called “disorderly conduct” was people being attacked by cops. Our prosecutor has decided not to support those charges.

        This is why we voted for her. Bostonians (many of us) are sick of bully cops.Report

          • veronica d in reply to Aaron David says:

            So it’s an editorial and not a news report, meaning the author has little responsibility to be objective in reporting the facts.

            There was violence, some of it instigated by protestors. Some was instigated by cops. Many of those arrested were there protesting peacefully. Our DA is working to drop charges against the latter group. You should support her efforts. Likewise, you should support any efforts to investigate police misconduct.

            I’m sure you do.Report

            • Aaron David in reply to veronica d says:

              I absolutely think we should investigate police misconduct. The first place to start would be at trial. As some have already been arrested, and they have counsel provided, a trial should provide all the facts necessary. Presumption of innocence and such means that the police would have to prove their case, and it would allow the defense to bring counter-evidence. I am sure, in this day and age, there is video of the misconduct. Waving charges will both not allow us to find any culprits and will allow rumors to flow, in both directions.

              As far as this being an editorial, I could care less, as it is saying what they were being charged with. And that is surely not in question, as then we wouldn’t be here.Report

              • veronica d in reply to Aaron David says:

                You want all that for peaceful protest?

                Nope. Sorry. That would be abusive.

                There would be no downside for the cops to bust up peaceful protests — but of course, they’d choose who to bust up based on cop-think. It would be a tool for power. In fact, it already is.

                Yes, everyone gets a trial, but a mere indictment can fuck up your life. It’s expensive, unless you believe our public defendant program actually works. (It doesn’t.) It’s time consuming. It certainly shouldn’t be used against those who committed no crimes.

                What stops a cop from charging you right now? For whatever. Use your imagination.

                At least two things:

                1. The discretion of the prosecutor

                2. The grand jury procedure.

                In this case, our prosecutor has decided that peaceful protestors should not be charged, or more specifically the charges should be dropped. It’s within her power and it serves justice. It’s a check on police abuse.

                If an abusive cop arrests you and charges you with bullshit, you would hope that either the prosecutor or the grand jury would say “nope, fuck this.”

                This is particularly important in terms of political protest. I understand the contemporary right want to boot-stomp the left, and are happy when the cops do it. Fortunately we have at least one person in power that is standing against that.Report

              • Aaron David in reply to veronica d says:

                So, no chance for the truth to come out.

                Well, OK then.Report

              • veronica d in reply to Aaron David says:

                So courts are the only avenue for truth? That seems really dumb. Regarding any protestors who engaged in violence — those charged are being prosecuted. That seems a valid area of concern. The various (and ill-defined) “disorderly conduct” charges are what are being dropped.

                Methinks you just want leftists to stay home and shut up. We won’t. We’ll be in the streets shouting.Report

              • dragonfrog in reply to Aaron David says:

                An acquittal isn’t a finding of innocence anyway, as we are frequently reminded. It just means such evidence as exists leaves some room for doubt.

                Cops are basically never held to account for perjury on those occasions when their lies are disbelieved by judges or juries.

                So, in the case where someone innocent is arrested, a trial can result in false imprisonment of the innocent, or in their being dragged through the whole trial process, losing considerable sums of money and time and possibly their job, housing, custody of their children, mental health, etc.

                In no case does it result in some kind of public vindication for the accused.Report

              • Aaron David in reply to dragonfrog says:

                “An acquittal isn’t a finding of innocence anyway, as we are frequently reminded. It just means such evidence as exists leaves some room for doubt.”

                No, if you are not proven guilty, you are innocent, in the eyes of the law. And in the end, that is all that matters. It is no longer a point of public record, you don’t have to put anything down in an application, etc. Can people still feel that you are guilty? Of course, but they can do that no matter what the law says or doesn’t say. You, for instance, seem to feel that the cops here are guilty. As is your right.

                I agree that cops are not held account often enough, but there has to be a start of the process, and that start is the public record. Again, with no trial, nothing put down to record. I, not having been there, want the public record to reflect any video evidence that might arise, verbal testimony from any witnesses, and so on. I want it to show that if there was a police camera, that it was turned on or off, as that affects my opinion. The previous record of police violence by the officers in question. Any previous arrests of the defendants, if they are pertinent. And so on.

                In other words, build a case, convince me that what you are saying, that it was the police who were the instigators, is the truth. Right now? That isn’t the case.

                And if the police are perjuring themselves, than electing a DA, one who is sympathetic to the cause of increasing police accountability, is the way to go. One who will hold those officers accountable and will investigate these claims.Report

              • dragonfrog in reply to Aaron David says:

                “No, if you are not proven guilty, you are innocent, in the eyes of the law. And in the end, that is all that matters. It is no longer a point of public record, you don’t have to put anything down in an application, etc. Can people still feel that you are guilty? Of course, but they can do that no matter what the law says or doesn’t say. ”

                How is this preferable to having charges without a realistic prospect of conviction dropped as early as possible, so less public money is wasted, defendants aren’t financially needlessly harmed by legal fees, the charged parties can go back to normalcy as quickly as possible, and the end result from a legal perspective (no criminal record) is the same?

                I already listed ways proceeding to trial is worse.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Aaron David says:

                “Your Honor, this man is charged with disorderly conduct.”

                “Do you have videotape footage of him being disorderly, with corroborating witnesses? No?
                Case dismissed.”Report

              • Aaron David in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                So, Boston. Tech center of the east coast. And no one has a cell phone camera turned on the cops? Even when they have a record of violence?

                Yeah, calling bullshit on that.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Aaron David says:

                I was trying to use the same criteria we use for cops, to the protesters.Report

        • Doctor Jay in reply to veronica d says:

          For some reason, I thought you lived in NYC. I stand corrected. Between you and Aaron, I now understand the emotional subtext of this incident much more.

          My temperament is such that if some people want to have a “straight pride” parade, I would just roll my eyes and ignore them. But then, I’m not one of the queer folk, and I’m not directly threatened by homophobia. (though it’s close, since I’m not a super-traditional paragon of masculinity either).Report

          • veronica d in reply to Doctor Jay says:

            Oh honestly, I think we should mostly roll our eyes and ignore them. I mean, let’s be clear, it was a white power event. The whole “str8 pride” thing is a bullshit cover for fascism.

            I do support the general idea of a counter protest, but it should be peaceful. The important thing to understand is, the cops are going to bust skulls even for a peaceful protest. Not always. It depends. But it happens.

            The cops aren’t the good guys.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    L9: Who do they think they are? Police?Report

  3. Oscar Gordon says:

    L3 – Way to go, judge…

    L9: Personally, I don’t believe a crime was committed. If a bank accidentally puts money in my account, then it’s mine. They should be more careful. I mean, if I accidentally write a check for more than the amount in my account, I don’t get to a take-backsies to avoid overdraft fees, do I?Report

    • George Turner in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      You’re relying on the wisdom and business knowledge gained from playing Monopoly.

      Community Chest – Bank Error in Your Favor! Collect $200 (Image)

      I’ll bet all such misperceptions trace back to that one source.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to George Turner says:

        But what was the crime committed? Theft? Fraud?Report

        • George Turner in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          Well, suppose I leave my car in your driveway with the keys in it while I go on vacation. There’s no crime in driving my car around if you want, but you shouldn’t sell it to somebody else, and you certainly can’t sell it and keep the money, because although it was sitting in your driveway, it wasn’t your car to sell.

          I suspect bank errors are somewhat similar. It’s your bank account, just as it’s your driveway, but that still doesn’t mean that everything in it is necessarily yours.

          This probably comes down to objects having owners, and owners having containers (driveways, glove boxes, and bank accounts), but the container not being the absolute determinant of an object’s ownership.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to George Turner says:

            Did you and I have an understanding regarding the car, or did a strange car magically show up in your driveway one day, with the keys in it, and no obvious paperwork showing ownership? How long should I wait before I decide to get a salvage title and sell the thing?

            How long did the bank take to catch and correct their mistake? Was it a day, a week, a month (article doesn’t say)?

            All that said, yes, the bank does have a right to get the money back, which is what civil courts are for.

            Why is this in criminal court?Report

            • George Turner in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              Well, I would assume that they hastily went on a spending spree instead of telling the bank “There has been some mistake.”

              Going with the car analogy, suppose you find a truck with the keys in it on a piece of remote property you own, and guess that someone is out hunting deer and didn’t want to risk dropping their keys in the woods.

              Maybe they have your permission to be on your land and maybe they don’t, but a court is going to look at your actions in light of what a reasonable person would do.

              Did you leave a note on the truck, and for how long, before treating it as an abandoned vehicle? Did you contact the authorities to report an abandoned vehicle? Did you make any attempt to identify and contact the owners? Or did you just see it, hop in, and drive it to a car auction?

              I’m sure there’s lots of case law on the subject, since so many folks have used the “I found it on my property, so I claimed it” defense.

              There’s certainly some line in the law where a person’s actions have simply crossed over into theft.

              For another analogy, if some fleeing bank robbers dump the loot in your car during their attempts to elude the police, you need to report that. If you instead run off to Vegas with the cash then you’re probably just made yourself the getaway driver and an accessory to the bank robbery.

              Or suppose a Brink’s truck rolls over on the highway and a bunch of bags land in the back of your truck, which to some would qualify as a bank error in their favor.

              These are temptations to commit a crime, and just because it’s tempting to the average person doesn’t mean it’s not straight up theft.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to George Turner says:

                Fair point.

                My larger point is that the law is structured to the benefit of banks over depositors.

                Case in point the practice of banks running all debits against an account BEFORE running the deposits to an account. AFAIK, there is no fundamental reason for this, other than it increases the possibility of a bank being able to leverage overdraft fees, and that is not seen as some kind of theft or fraud on the part of the bank.Report

              • George Turner in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                That should be treated as fraud. Too many bank executives lack the ethics to resist clever schemes to loot the accounts of their depositors, especially the poorer depositors.

                Another trick some (like Chase) got in some trouble for was re-ordering a day’s transactions so that they could charge for the maximum number of overdrafts. If the last purchase of the evening was big enough to let them charge $40 fees on each of the day’s prior trivial coffee and donut purchases, they’d go ahead and do that.Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      I couldn’t see any documentation, but it appears that Pennsylvania, like many states, criminalizes theft for failure to return property:

      § 3924. Theft of property lost, mislaid, or delivered by mistake.

      A person who comes into control of property of another that he knows to have been lost, mislaid, or delivered under a mistake as to the nature or amount of the property or the identity of the recipient is guilty of theft if, with intent to deprive the owner thereof, he fails to take reasonable measures to restore the property to a person entitled to have it.

      Knowledge and intent are the key elements, and it appears that the couple told investigators that they knew the money didn’t belong to them and the bank wrote notices. There is also probably an issue of spending so much money so quickly, which would be interpreted as thinking they had to spend it or lose it.

      I’m not sure a lot of prosecutors would go after something like this though, as opposed to leaving it to the bank to go after them.Report

  4. George Turner says:

    L5: The Outer Space Treaty will eventually have to be junked because it’s not organic case law that ties intuitively to anything regarding property or human behavior, it’s a treaty to keep limit Cold War diplomatic space incidents. It’s requirements result in bizarre situations and it can be gamed in strange ways.

    Under almost any reading of the OST, a Russian astronaut on the ISS must notify the UN Secretary General before he hugs an American astronaut. The treat prohibits any nation from interfering with an experiment being conducted by another nation, so if I showered the moon with a 50 pound bag of self-rising flour and called it an albedo and UV bleaching experiment, no other country would ever be allowed to land anywhere on the moon, since a landing would affect my stupid flour experiment.

    Once cases start landing in courtrooms, a lot of space law will likely end up harmonizing with Western property law where concepts of ownership, control, and liability are the result of countless centuries of cases where ordinary people thought deeply about who did what to whom.Report

  5. PD Shaw says:

    [L1] I didn’t realize until reading the link that after the opinion was published Justice Frankfurter reached out to a former classmate in order to get him to use his influence on the Governor in favor of a reprieve from execution. That adds another layer to the conflict btw/ personal views and judicial roles. And he didn’t tell the other Justices what he had done.

    However, I did know the governor was the “singing governor,” Jimmie Davis, best known for “You Are My Sunshine,” and at least a partial inspiration for the Governor in “O Brother, Where Art Thou?” While this last minute attempts were being made, its possible that Davis was in California, cutting and filming musical shorts. The bright lights beckon to stars and moths alike.Report

  6. Kolohe says:

    L5 – most things in space I think can be modeled after maritime law, where (my understanding as a layperson) is that the vessel’s flag (i.e. country it belongs to) is the one that has sovereignty and thus jurisdiction for most crimes. The ISS is interesting in that it does not technically ‘belong’ to any country, as far as know.

    What may be interesting is that if there’s a breakthru in propulsion (or other method of moving through 3 dimensional space), and relativistic effects become manifest, how statute of limitations may work. Whose time is the controlling authority?Report

  7. Slade the Leveller says:

    Willie Francis died in the Louisiana electric chair that May, just a few months past his 18th birthday.

    Good Lord, they sentenced a child to die!Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

      Yep. Arrested at 15, tried and convicted at 16, first attempted execution at 17, death at 18. He had a sham of a trial with little to no defense, and there was some evidence of his innocence. It’s really tragic. Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        His lawyer to the Supreme Court originally thought he was guilty but did some investigation of his own and realized how messed up the original trial was. Welcome to the Old South. Not that much has seemed to change. There is.a cruel streak in American jurisprudence and racism makes it a lot worse.Report