A Camp By Any Other Name Would Smell as Foul
Last week, a mini-controversy erupted when Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez referred to the federal immigrant detention facilities as “concentration camps”. The sky turned Twitter-blue with tweets either justifying the comparison or disputing it. Proponents pointed out that the term “concentration camp” is not a term specific to the Holocaust and refers to any concentration of individuals to isolate them from society. Of course, they also compared the current situation to Nazi Germany and said things like “never again” so they were kind of all over the map on that one. Opponents of the term got into very high dudgeon over the pro-immigration side using such a loaded term and pointed out, rather pedantically, that we aren’t actually executing people. Of course, they often paired this with commentary saying that detention conditions should be harsh in order to discourage people from…uh…fleeing to this country to avoid being tortured and murdered by drug gangs. So I’m not sure they were entirely in Earth orbit either.
For a while, I was on Team Not-A-Concentration-Camp. Not because these aren’t concentration camps — they do meet the technical definition. But because I sympathized with the argument that the phrase “concentration camp” is extremely loaded. When people hear that phrase, they think of the labor and extermination camps of the Nazis, which these are not. At best, they think of the Japanese Internment camps, which is closer to the mark, although those involved US citizens. Of course, those associations are precisely why many people want to use the term “concentration camp”. But I think using that term is less likely to make people reconsider their position than to hunker down and refuse to listen. Pejoratives have a tendency to do that.
It’s at this point in the post where I’m supposed to say, “As a Jew…” to justify my point. Well, as a Jew, I refuse to invoke my religion as some kind of rhetorical shield. You don’t have be Jewish to have an opinion on this subject; nor are you required to have a strong opinion on this subject if you’re Jewish. While the phrase “concentration camp” has a special and tragic resonance for Jews (as well as Eastern Europeans, Roma, gays and disabled who were also murdered by millions), our historical tragedy is not your rhetorical barb. Regardless of my religion and heritage, I avoid using the phrase “concentration camp”. I avoid it because I don’t want the extremely esoteric and ultimately useless battle over what we call our immigration detention facilities to distract from what they are. Because what they are is a catastrophe.
This week saw a stunning report from the New York Times on the conditions within the detention camps, specifically the conditions of children.
Children as young as 7 and 8, many of them wearing clothes caked with snot and tears, are caring for infants they’ve just met, the lawyers said. Toddlers without diapers are relieving themselves in their pants. Teenage mothers are wearing clothes stained with breast milk.
Most of the young detainees have not been able to shower or wash their clothes since they arrived at the facility, those who visited said. They have no access to toothbrushes, toothpaste or soap.
And then there’s this:
Four toddlers were so severely ill and neglected at a U.S. Border Patrol facility in McAllen, Texas, that lawyers forced the government to hospitalize them last week.
The children, all under age 3 with teenage mothers or guardians, were feverish, coughing, vomiting and had diarrhea, immigration attorneys told HuffPost on Friday. Some of the toddlers and infants were refusing to eat or drink. One 2-year-old’s eyes were rolled back in her head, and she was “completely unresponsive” and limp, according to Toby Gialluca, a Florida-based attorney.
And this:
A 2-year-old boy locked in detention wants to be held all the time. A few girls, ages 10 to 15, say they’ve been doing their best to feed and soothe the clingy toddler who was handed to them by a guard days ago. Lawyers warn that kids are taking care of kids, and there’s inadequate food, water and sanitation for the 250 infants, children and teens at the Border Patrol station.
Almost simultaneous with these reports of conditions in the detention camps saw the emergence of a video of Sarah Fabian, a DOJ attorney, arguing before a flabbergasted Ninth Circuit panel that the above (and worse) did not violate a federal agreement that requires detainees to be kept in “safe and sanity” conditions.
This is embarrassing and shameful pic.twitter.com/Jdo5Kasq6t
— nilay patel (@reckless) June 22, 2019
While Fabian’s argument is repulsive, there is more to it than that, as Ken White points out
The United States’s loathsome argument—that it is “safe and sanitary” to confine children without soap, toothbrushes, dry clothes, and on concrete under bright lights—is morally indefensible. It’s also a spectacularly foolish argument to raise in the famously liberal Ninth Circuit, where the United States should have expected exactly the reception that it got. And even though the litigation began under the Obama administration, it was the Trump administration that elected to bring this appeal and ask the court to bless these inhumane conditions as “safe and sanitary.” That’s an extremely aggressive legal argument, and one that suggests that the disturbing conditions being reported at confinement centers are intentional, not a sign of mere neglect.
That last sentence is the one that jumps out at me. The federal government is not arguing that these conditions are unique or unusual. It’s arguing that they are acceptable. That indicates that these conditions are not only widespread but are deliberately harsh. Indeed, Administration flacks have long-argued that harsh treatment of illegal immigrants and asylum speakers — in this case, the family separation policy — could act as a deterrent to illegal immigration. This weaponization of children has been embraced by Trumpists as a necessary means to stop illegal immigration and such treatment has been justified because “these people are criminals”.
This is family blog so a respect for decorum prevents me from responding to that argument with the florid and almost poetic profanity I would like to unleash. So I will instead say that the contention that these conditions are justifiable or acceptable as a means of preventing illegal immigration is one of the most factually incorrect, morally cretinous and intellectually vapid things I’ve heard since Count von Thurn said the Defenestration of Prague was an important test of the theory of gravity.
First of all, many of these detainees are not illegal immigrants; they are asylum seekers. They have come to this country and presented themselves at a border to escape violence and bloodshed in their own countries (violence at least partially stimulated by the War on Drugs). That is how the process of asylum-seeking works; people come to a border point and ask for asylum. They aren’t required to sit in their violence-torn neighborhoods, under threat of death, and write double-spaced letters to the embassy.
When this is pointed out, the Trumpists quickly pivot from falsehood to falsehood, claiming that the detention is necessary because asylum seekers never show up for their hearings if they are released. This is a lie. Over 90% of asylum seekers show up for their hearings. This is indeed why previous administrations would — generally speaking — release asylum seekers, pending their hearing. Because detaining them was not only unnecessary, it would create the exact kind of conditions we are now seeing.
But I would add something else: even if 100% of the detainees were illegal immigrants, that still wouldn’t justify this kind of treatment. “They’re criminals!” is a great line, but ultimately a useless one. We are all federal criminals in some regard. You probably break a federal law every day without knowing it. Moreover, if we treated prisoners like this, it would be a scandal. If we treated the children of criminals like this in some vague effort to “deter” people from breaking the law, it would be an outrage.
We don’t treat enemy prisoners of war like this. We don’t even treat Al-Qaeda terrorists like this. Least of all their children.
Now to be fair to Trump, the current border crisis is at least partially a result of an unexpected and dramatic influx of immigrants — both illegal and asylum-seeking. We’ve seen such surges before and they have occasionally resulted in problems (see, e.g., the 2014 immigrant crisis under Obama). But the current crisis has been made far worse by Trump’s policy decisions. And exacerbated to the current degree by his inability or unwillingness to prepare for the consequences of those policy decisions.
A competent President, before implementing more restrictive immigration policies, would have pushed to fund more judges, more lawyers and more facilities to keep a system that was already overwhelmed from completely collapsing. He would have pushed for it at least as hard as he did the Wall. But he didn’t. The approach was more “detain ’em all, let God sort ’em out.” And we’re now seeing the consequences of this lack of preparation.
Now before the comments fill up with a million “but Obama” replies: yes. This crisis has been building for a long time. Immigrants have been detained in poor conditions for a number of years and much of the current problem is continuation of problems that began under previous administrations.
But that doesn’t excuse it. Yes, this problem did not magically drop from space the day Donald Trump was elected. But he has taken a bad situation and made it far worse with his policy decisions and incompetence. And given that cracking down on immigration is one of his signature issues and the crackdown is something he boasts about routinely, I don’t think it’s entirely out of line to lay most of the blame for this at Trump’s feet, even as we acknowledge the failures of Obama and Bush and Clinton in this regard.1
Look, You don’t have to believe in immigration amnesty or open borders — and I don’t believe in either — to believe that immigrants should be treated humanely. Nor do you necessarily have to be an anti-Trump Resistance trooper. This is bigger than which Party controls Congress and which lunkhead they’ve managed to squeeze into the Oval Office. Ken White again:
It is right and fit to condemn the Trump administration for its argument and its treatment of children. But it’s wrong to think the problem can be cured with a presidential election. Trump will depart; the problem will not depart with him. This administration is merely the latest one to subject immigrant children to abusive conditions. It’s been 35 years since Jenny Flores was strip-searched in an adult facility. Before Sarah Fabian defended concrete floors and bright lights for President Donald Trump, she defended putting kids in solitary confinement for President Barack Obama.
The fault lies not with any one administration or politician, but with the culture: the ICE and CBP culture that encourages the abuse, the culture of the legal apologists who defend it, and our culture—a largely indifferent America that hasn’t done a damn thing about it. This stain on America’s soul will not wash out with an election cycle. It will only change when Americans demand that the government treat the least of us as both the law and our values require—and firmly maintain that demand no matter how we feel about the party in power.
So now the question becomes: what do we do? Protests and Twitter campaigns are fun (and easy). And maybe they’ve forced Trump to mitigate somewhat. But what really needs to happen here is that Congress needs to get off their collective butt. The suffering of these children is not a damned fund-raising opportunity. It’s a crisis and the body with the problem to mitigate that crisis is Congress, which can allocate the billions of dollars needed to expand facilities, increase the number of agents, lawyers and judges and provide the resources needs to feed, cloth and house tens of thousands of people. No, that’s not an ideal solution. A more humane children’s prison is still a children’s prison. But … it’s also a more humane one. And Trump’s presidency means we have the Hobson’s Choice of humane prisons and inhumane ones.
The immigrants are going to be detained, one way or another. Isn’t a moral compromise to make the conditions less inhumane better than the moral compromise of dragging it out until the next election? And what happens if Trump wins re-election? Do we really want to be sitting here in 2021, with children still suffering, wishing we’d passed a law to mitigate it? The pill is bitter but it must be swallowed.
Thankfully, Congress appears to be waking up to the fact that they are, you know, Congress, and can actually do stuff. There are proposals moving through Congress to provide several billion for additional help. Both sides are blaming each other for the delay. Trump could, of course, put money into this from the same sources he’s pillaging to pay for his wall. But I’m not holding my breath on that, given that the response of his base to these reports has been either to ignore or even justify it.
But this needs to happen as soon as possible. Pass a law. Allocate the funds. Call it the “fixing Trump’s Concentration Camps Acts of 2019” if you like (the call it something else after he vetoes it). But it’s time for Congress to do what must be done.
However, we also need to also be thinking long-term. This isn’t the first time we’ve had a rush of immigrants at our southern border and it won’t be the last. We had something similar (although substantially less awful) occur under Obama when there was an unexpected rush of unaccompanied minors illegally entering the country. We need to expect, given the realities of life, politics, economics and climate in Central America, that this is going to be a recurring problem, not a temporary one. And we can’t assume that future Administrations will embrace an open borders utopia (or dystopia, depending on your point of view). The Administration is already moving many federal employees to deal with the border crisis (at the cost of longer waits and ports of entry). But that’s a temporary solution at best.
During the Cold War, the United States positioned masses of military equipment in Western Europe, way more than we had the personnel for. The idea was that if a war ever broke out, troops would be sent to the area and link up with pre-positioned equipment to be able to go into battle immediately. The logic was that heavy military equipment takes time to move, but people can be moved relatively quickly.
While I dislike using war paradigms in civilian contexts, I think it is apt in this case. We need to be building permanent facilities whose use can be ramped up or down as the situation requires. We need to have personnel who can be pulled off of other tasks and moved into the area to help on an organized basis, not an ad-hoc one. We may even need the equivalent of a reserve force of non-government lawyers, judges, law enforcement personnel, caretakers and even just administrators and secretarial staff who can be “called up” when the problem gets really bad. Because it already was bad before Trump took office and it will get bad again in the future.
(We also need to revisit the culture in organizations like ICE and the Border Patrol which has contributed to this. But that’s very unlikely to happen, given the generally bipartisan support both organizations enjoy.)
I realize that probably sounds dystopian and even authoritarian to my more libertarian readers. But is it more dystopian and authoritarian than toddlers peeing their pants, children dying of flu and teens in filthy clothes trying to sleep on a concrete floor? Because in a country that does not and will never support open borders, those are our choices. We either allocate the resources needed to treat these people humanely or we treat them inhumanely.
And, returning to my opening point, this is why I quickly tire of the “are they concentration camps or not” debate. Yes, the situation has some parallels to Nazi Germany. But it also has a lot of parallels to things that are not Nazi Germany. And ultimately you don’t need to invoke the Nazis to know that none of this should be happening.
So what exactly is the point of that debate? While both may technically be described as “concentration camps”, there is a world of difference between a facility where people are treated with dignity, compassion and respect and one where they aren’t. We’re going to need some place to house, at least on a temporary basis, the people streaming across the border, today and probably tomorrow as well. You can call them “concentration camps”, “detention facilities” or “strawberry bundt cakes” for all I care. What matters more is how the people there are treated. And that, rather than the precise is verbiage, is what we should be focused on.
- I would also add that the Trumpists need to make up their mind about which line of propaganda they’re going to stick with. You can’t claim that the conditions in detention are fake news and also that the immigrants deserve it and also it started under Obama. I dislike the phrase “pick a lane” — my own mind tends to wander from the straight and narrow. But you could at least drive on something that vaguely resembles a road.
I’m not going to be nice. These are concentration camps, and the fact that these conditions are being inflicted on children is beyond reprehensible. There’s no nice middle ground. These children are being actively and on purpose tortured by our government, operating in our name, to allegedly send a message to migrants fleeing horrible violence (that actually originates in the Cold War proxy fight between the US and USSR in central and South America, redoubled by the War on Drugs). Republican politicians are silent on the matter, proving their hypocrisy as “Christians.” Libertarians are silent as their clarion calls for greater personal freedom have been inexplicably muted. Democrats speak out, but lack real legislative power, and effectively lost it when Mitch McConnel took over as Senate majority leader and decided his number one priority was denying Mr. Obama a win ever at all costs.
Debate all you want about whether we should be more open to able bodied adults who want to work in our fields, build our houses, clean our offices, nurture our children, cook our meals and do a whole host of other things.
But there ABSOLUTELY NO DEBATING the senseless cruelty being inflicted on these kids. None. And if the President was so easily inclined to go around Congress and move funds to build his wall (which recent headlines prove won’t interdict drugs much less people), he could as easily decide to buck Congress and move funds to these children.
And so you each need to ask yourselves – after he goes after defenseless migrant children, who will be next? That’s where the Nazi references begin to get more salient.
The CRUELTY IS THE POINT.Report
Yep. They’ve said multiple times that they want to make it bad for immigrants to discourage them. And then when this sort of thing comes up, they just bury their heads in the sand.Report
Its odd that you say that libertarians have been silent about this when basically most of the libertarians I know have been saying this is why we should have open borders. To say that libertarians have been silent just means that you have not been listening.Report
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has voted against improving the conditions in these facilities 17 times. Nancy Pelosi was dead set against Trump’s requests for increased funding for the facilities. The suffering is too useful as an election issue.Report
Is there any indication at all that increased funding would improve conditions for the detainees?Report
Well, yes, there is. That’s why Trump and the various agencies were making all the funding requests, including requests for vastly boosting the numbers of immigration judges.Report
This is a rare times I’ll agree with George. The one thing I’m hearing over and over again is that the border agents are simply overwhelmed. They have three times the number of people they would consider a crisis. They’re putting a hundred people in a facility meant for ten. Even if Trump mitigated the harshness of his policies, we would still need more resource (see the immigrant crisis in 2014).Report
Why do they need to be detained?Report
It’s costing like $800 per child per night. For $250 per night they could house entire families at a nice hotel, without pointlessly and cruelly separating children from their parents.
The performative cruelty is the whole point. Giving them more money would just enable more elaborate cruelty.Report
Both the House and Senate have now passed bills for supplemental funding – The Senate doing so with bipartisan support, the House along party lines. Because they aren’t the same bill they have to be conference, and despite the crisis the White House has threatened to veto the House bill if it comes forward.And lest we forget, the House agreed to funding for immigration over the President’s request to end the federal worker furlough. That funding was for more CBP agents, more technology to control immigration, and more judges.
But sure, blast AOC and Democrats.Report
What is the difference between the bills?
Because the statement “along party lines” suggests we’re not done grandstanding or using children as pawns.Report
According to NPR the House bill contains more than $1 billion to house and feed migrants detained by immigration authorities and almost $3 billion to care for unaccompanied children.
Also according to NPR, the $4.6 billion Senate version includes $2.88 billion for the Department of Health and Human Services to address unaccompanied children. It also includes $50 million in additional funding to speed up processing in immigration courts.Report
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez voted against the bill, as did Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, and Ayanna Pressley, who wants to abolish ICE entirely. They’re the rising stars and future of the Democrat party.
Ironically, to get Trump’s spending request passed, Pelosi told her colleagues that a vote against the bill was a vote for Trump.Report
Pelosi isn’t the leader of the Caucus anymore.
Edit: Or undisputed leader, anyway.Report
If the choice is between Open Borders and Concentration Camps, there are quite a few people indeed who will choose the Concentration Camps. Perhaps even more than half, if allowed to vote on it.
The problem comes up when you’ve got a bunch of people who, when given the choice between staying in their own country and going up to the US to be in the Concentration Camps choose the latter.Report
Those children didn’t make that choice. And frankly since our country spent 60 years helping create the conditions their families are fleeing, we have more then a passing moral obligation to actually get of four collective duffs and do something more then exert the maximal possible cruelty.
And as to voters – considering that 45% of voters didn’t enter a booth to put this president in office, I’d say you need to revise your math.Report
I’m not sure that “open borders or concentration camps” was ever on the ballot.
(I’m pretty sure that we don’t want it to be. And by “we”, I mean “good people who want open borders”.)Report
Trump opened his campaign calling Mexicans Rapists. Anyone watching with a modicum of care and education knew he was going to be virulently anti-immigrant. Most of those who have been the architect of his immigration policies – including Stephen Miller – have written extensively about what they wanted to do. So yeah, Concentration Camps was on the ballot if you cared to look.
And to be really, almost pedantically clear – most liberals (and certainly all the liberal candidates in the 2016 election) don’t want fully open borders. What we do want is a recognition that migrants from the south form an integral part of several major sector sin our economy; they come here to become Americans, and they do so under a system that used to allow them free flow back and forth to a system that incentivizes them to enter illegally (since we don’t have enough slots for legal entry) and then stay when they want to return. That recognition also carries with it the creation and maintenance of immigration systems and policy that support their dignity. That’s not open borders.Report
So a system like the one that Obama was running with Detention Centers versus Trumpian Concentration Camps?
Are you sure that we weren’t merely voting for how we wanted journalists to cover Immigration policy?Report
Obama wasn’t separating children from families. And his ICE was doing a way better job both processing arrivals and deporting people – Obama actually deported more undocumented migrants then any of his predecessors. But sure, lets call it a framing problem instead of cruelty.Report
I was unaware that the US runs Guatemala and Honduras. In fact, I’m pretty sure the people in Guatemala and Honduras might bear some responsibility for the condition of their home countries.
And those countries are disasters. About 50% of indigenous adult women in Guatemala are illiterate. Only 25% of the workforce in Guatemala and Honduras completed high school, about on par with the number who say they never went to first grade.
Democrats talk about “the information economy” and the need for everyone to get a good education, but apparently the US has millions of jobs for which all the natives are wildly over-educated.
Just as a suggestion, why don’t we try to prepare our own minorities to fill those jobs by not letting them go to school? If we really need millions of people without high school diplomas, or who never even went to high school, can’t we come up with a program to handle that ourselves? Or are we lying to our kids when we tell them they need to go to school to get ahead?
In any event, under Obama’s state department guidelines, the number of Central Americans who would qualify for asylum would be almost zero, since private-sector violence does not count, only persecution by a UN recognized government.
The number of approved asylum requests for the Americas is small indeed. In 2014 we granted asylum to 11 people from Nicaragua, 3 from the Dominican Republic, 183 from El Salvador, 89 from Honduras, and 311 from Guatemala. They are not actually seeking asylum, they are seeking to pointlessly apply for asylum because they know we’ll turn them loose in two weeks because we have to obey a judge’s ruling, which is what turned a flood into a deluge.
We have to turn them loose because they have families, and somebody decided that unlike millions of American citizens who are sent to prison without their kids, because we don’t send kids to prison with their parents, non-Americans had a right to keep their kids with them in jail. If we can’t separate families, and we can’t jail kids for the crimes of their parents, then we might as well shut down the entire legal system.Report
If you are unaware of the role of the US government in the running of Hondouras, Guatamala, Panama, El Slavador, Colombia, Costa Rica and Belize then you missed both TV coverage in the 1980’s and a decent history education along the way. Governments in those countries were mostly US puppet regimes actively controlled by the CIA thorugh the late 1970’s, who as autocrats imposed authoritarian regimes on their people, while begin funded to fight “guerrillas” who were often poor peasants backed by Russia. The upshot of those decades of meddling is a complete lack of functional governments and democracies, for which we are now paying in the literal bodies of migrants. But sure, just like slave reparations we don’t need to atone for our sins because we din’t commit those sins ourselves.
As to the millions of jobs that are performed by these illiterate migrants – they used to be largely performed by African Americans under Jim Crow and before that as slaves. So not educating our own – and its refreshing to hear a conservative acknowledge minorities as Americans – is a return to that. We certainly don’t need to go down that road. But we do need the work done, and until the 1950’s Hispanics who came across the border to pick our crops along side the remaining African Americans could essentially come and go as they pleased – and record indicated most came, picked and left. All these things taken together put us where we are, and none of your ideas will actually address this.Report
I hope we checked with Queen Elizabeth before taking over Belize, because as the country’s monarch, she had a right to know, just like when we told her that the CIA was going to make Argentina invade the Falklands because they’d made a bar bet with the State Department.Report
That’s a big “if” there. I’d call that question-begging, myself.Report
And I still think that there’s an inconsistent triad waiting to punch us in the nose between:
1. Open Borders
2. Multi-culturalism
3. Robust Welfare State
If I had to pick two, I’d pick the first two.Report
I fall in the camp of people who are generally sympathetic to the plight of asylum seekers but found myself arguing with the people outraged about this over the weekend because of the ridiculous rhetoric they are intentionally using. (Doubling down in this comment thread after Michael does an excellent job of explaining why that is unhealthy is just more proof of how fucked up our national discourse is).
With that said, put refugee camps up in Mexico and send in the Red Cross, the UN, UNICEF, etc to assist. If it’s so bad, simply don’t let them enter the U.S. where they can’t be treated this way until President Warren is in office… but then the political value would be lost today, right?Report
Why not just let them in?Report
In a tweet?
Report
Is that your serious position, or the comedic opening line?Report
Well, I thought it did a good job of explaining why we aren’t just letting them in. Even the Wokest among us find ourselves saying NIMBY when we realize where the Concentrated will end up.
It’s easy to say “let them in! Nobody is using North Dakota!”
It’s when they move into our neighborhoods that we suddenly find ourselves Chering.
(Additionally, there seems to be a major intuition that the benefits of unbridled immigration will go to The Privileged and the costs of unbridled immigration will go to the underprivileged and that makes the underprivileged cranky. As someone who will see most of the benefits of immigration and won’t see most of the costs, it’s easy for me to support Open Borders. But I also try to keep in mind that I will see most of the benefits of it and I won’t really pay any of the costs of it.)Report
You shoulda stuck with calling it a comedic opening.
Look, do I need to copy and paste one of the many comments from people here at OT talking about how due to global capitalism, medieval kings would envy our poor, as a way of saying that if we are so wildly wealthy, why are we fretting over taking in a few thousands of poor immigrants?
Or the historical example that accepting impoverished immigrants has always resulted in America growing wealthier?
What logic underpins this Lump Of Wealth fallacy?Report
dude
look who the tweet is from
like
NOT EXACTLY SOMEONE I DESCRIBE AS A ROCK-RIBBED DEFENDER OF BLOODY-MINDED CAPITALIST OLIGARCHYReport
She’s not a liberal.
She’s just a half breed, worried we will let in all those gypsies, tramps, and thieves.
Seriously, do you guys think that any random tweet from any given liberal becomes the Party Line communique from COMINTERN?Report
On this issue, both Sanders and Warren are basically Trump without his mouth. Obama (and maybe Biden?) was too if we judge him by what he did.
Sanders insists that Trump wants open borders in comparison to himself.
Those children in cages pictures that troll the internet showcasing how bad Trump is were taken during the Obama administration.Report
Yes. That is exactly what Jaybird and Dark Matter and others seem to believe. They know liberals don’t have an equivalent of Fox News or Talk Radio so they need to use random tweets by old celebs or whomever and make that Democratic Party dogma because it shows lockstep and Dems in Disarray at the same time.Report
“Why not enact my preferred policy?”
“Because a lot of people think X?”
“Do I really need to disagree with X?!?”
Um… no? But disagreeing with X won’t solve the problem of the belief.
What logic underpins this Lump Of Wealth fallacy?
If I had to guess, I’d say that it’s tied into the whole phenomenon of people feeling like they are not as well off, economically, as their parents were.
There’s the whole thing of a lack of solidarity on the part of the people who benefit the most from immigration telling the people who will be paying the cost to suck it up (I can make Union analogies again, if you don’t remember the last 100 times we’ve discussed this).
Along with a handful of the people who will find themselves worse off due to immigration (I can link to that government report again, if you don’t remember the last 100 times we’ve discussed this).Report
Ahh, the Trumpists FEELINGS of economic insecurity.
This idea that low wage domestic workers would be better off if we shut out immigrant laborers doesn’t hold water.
There are half a dozen other ways to help low wage workers, that don’t involve concentration camps.Report
Okay.
They still vote.Report
And?Report
I must be misunderstanding the goal.
Are we trying to figure out a way to “just let them in”?Report
Isn’t that what I asked?Report
Yeah. And the answer seems to be that the laws exist as a result of our elected officials.
Believe it or not, these laws were passed even though they’re not logical.
I suppose we could mock the idea of people voting based on their feelings…Report
But that would either involve having liberal elites pay them a normal wage, which kind of ruins the whole point of exploiting them in the first place, or billing the middle class for government services to help the illegals who work for liberal elites – who won’t pay them very much.
A brilliant French analyst has looked deeply into the issue in France, and his analysis is the subject of a Great article in City Journal, which I highly recommend for anyone who seeks a deeper understanding of what’s going on.
Four excerpts:
What we’re doing is importing a new underclass because the upper class benefits from having an underclass, and the old working class wanted too much money and respect.
So Guatemalans it is.Report
OK, OK you win.
Liberals will agree to force the upper class elites to raise the minimum wage for all workers to say, $15/ hr.
Oh, alright! And a nationalized health care system on top of it!
But that’s it!
Well, OK maybe subsidized housing.
But no more and we mean it this time!
Man, you’re a tough negotiator.Report
I can’t recall Trump using “they’ll take our jobs” against the immigrants. He’s always been “rapists, murderers, & terrorists”.
And the last big effort to deal with immigration got derailed by 911 (the big hearings were going to start on Nov 12th), which seems to have brought with it a big uptick in xenophobia.
Xenophobia seems to be aggravated by but not dependant on economic insecurity.Report
Dear Ms. Sarkisian:
The Venn diagram of the people who don’t want to help struggling immigrants and don’t care about helping the domestically unfortunate looks very much like a circle.Report
(Can we deadname again? Is that something we’re allowed to do?)Report
I was raised to respect my elders, and to use last names of people with whom I am not on familiar terms. If I were addressing Beyonce, I’d call her either Ms. Knowles or Ms. Carter unless she told me otherwise.Report
From the Wiki:
(The year in question was 1978.)Report
I don’t keep track of people’s legal filings. Not even celebrities. If someone changes his or her name, he or she will certainly tell me that after I have, politely, referred to him or her by the now obsolete last name. He or she will probably be polite about it, too. Simple enough.Report
okay i’ve seen some weird subthreads here but someone arguing that he shouldn’t be expected to call Cher “Cher” is definitely on the listReport
If Cher prefers to be called Cher, without a last name, that’s her call and people who know her preference should honor it, just as they should honor anyone else’s known preference, though some folks think it violates their right to free speech or constitutes political correctness. That’s just good manners.
Where preferences are not known, the rule of manners I was raised on is to refer to people with whom I am not on familiar terms by last name, with an honorific. Were you and Jaybird raised differently?
Now that I know Cher’s preference, in the unlikely event that I ever meet her I will, of course, honor it. That’s just good manners.Report
Give it a rest.
Speaking as a person who has legally changed her name, we can tell the difference between someone who made an honest mistake and someone who is being a jackass.Report
Huh. I’d think that “I don’t keep track of people’s legal filings” would turn this into “Jaybird’s a jerk but he’s got a point” instead of an “honest mistake” situation.
It’s weird who gets bound by laws and who gets protected by them.
Ah, well. If it becomes obvious that they’re weapons rather than principles, they’ll blow away like the rules wielded by televangelists in the 80’s did.
Or when, I guess.Report
Well, the idea is that to further the cause of intellectual tolerance and respectful discussion, Jaybird must always be treated as an asshole who is wrong. Therefore whatever he says is wrong and must be explained as being wrong, even if what he says is “when a person chooses their own name to develop a new identity we should respect that choice”.Report
Since a robust welfare state kind of requires a good economy and tax dollars, I’m not sure why you can’t have all three? Open borders doesn’t necessarily mean that people can start claiming benefits once they get to the United States, anymore than I can go up to Canada and get healthcare under their single payer system.Report
I think that it has to do with what “multi-culturalism” actually entails.
If we’re talking about Epcot Multiculturalism, I imagine it is, in fact, possible.
If we’re not, I don’t think it is. For one, you get disagreements about immigration and what constitutes “robust” within a couple of minutes.Report
Here, I saw this flit across my timeline today:
Report
Weird how the multi-cultural parts of America are the ones most friendly to open borders and robust welfare states.Report
I guess it depends on whether your definition of multi-cultural allows for segregation or not.
If it does, you’re sure right.Report
Well, yes, you can’t have issues with segregation if you make it very difficult for non-white people to get there in the first place.Report
Just price them out and make them commute.
(That way you won’t have to worry about them going to your kids’ schools!)Report
Nah, I want to do that to white working class people, by doing such terrible things as making them actually paying the full costs of their car trips, as an coastal elitist.Report
Given that coastal cities are the gold standard of setting the example to follow, I’m sure that flyover will be following along shortly.Report
Jaybird and the land of false choices and pseudo-Socrates dada, an ongoing series.Report
Can’t you tell how much tighter your rhetoric has gotten?Report
In a very different world from the one we live in, immigration would be a wonky, technical issue that the vast majority of voters wouldn’t put in their top ten. There would be some sort of compromise on how many million immigrants we would be willing to take. Given that we aren’t going to get many Norwegian immigrants these days, for excellent reasons, we would recognize that many of them would come from the current shithole countries, rather than the shithole countries of the 19th century, and set up an immigration bureaucracy that could deal with this fact. We would recognize the fact of large numbers of long-time illegal immigrants who have been contributing to American prosperity, largely doing jobs we natives won’t do, and create a path to legality.
But we don’t live in that world. We live in a world where, for a significant constituency, cruelty and incompetence is not a bug, it’s a feature.Report
That and many of our ancestors “legally” came over via methods that would be illegal today.
And that the US is absurdly good in terms of assimilation of immigrants.Report
They are concentration camps in form and function. The detention centers are meant to hold civilians to cruel and dehumanizing conditions. This is the very definition of a concentration camp.Report
That being said, I can semi-understand why some Jews might be a bit unsure at calling the detention centers concentration camps. The term might have originated with the British during the Anglo-Boer War but became very linked to the Jewish people because of the Holocaust. An analogy is how without a prefix or adjective, when you speak about slavery most people believe you are referring to the enslavement of Africans in the Americas. When the detention centers get referred to as concentration camps, which the are, it could feel like we Jews and our history are being used as props. Since the people referring to them as such tend to be not overly known for their fondness of Israel, it could be an especially hard thing to swallow.Report
I rather think that the issue is that the term “concentration camps” as used by the NAZIs was a euphemism, like “Jewish Settlement Region” or “protective custody” to give death camps either a veneer of acceptance, or to obscure what was really happening, or as a simple joke among those who enjoyed such things. Americans don’t know anything about the Boer War; the only usage they would know would be as a death camp, i.e., a place where people are kept until their deaths can be arranged.Report
You don’t have to go back to the Boer War. Before and during WWII, the Nazi camps were called “concentration camps”, because they were generally believed to be just that: places where undesirables were concentrated in crowded, unpleasant, and likely unsanitary conditions. Only after being liberated by the Allied Armies were they known as locations for industrialized murder.
The places immigrant children are being kept fit the definition of concentration camp admirably.Report
What does the government call the facilities? How about just use the same term and complain about that instead of trying to be sensational? The liberal urge to label and name call things is something I will never understand. I mean, I absolutely think abortion is murder, but I don’t call it that because it’s not productive. The people in this thread that insist on arguing about terminology seem unserious to me about actually discussing the problem itself.Report
“Nature is gradational, Man classifies,” – Paul Merril, my 7th grade life science teacher.
Humans label things Mike, and in this case calling these concentration camps when the meet the definition of a concentration camp is absolutely appropriate. If you want to upgrade the name to detention centers you need to make sure the standards of care are raised.
Its not, however, name calling just because naming a thing what it is makes you uncomfortable.Report
Phillip,
As several other people have pointed out, the term has become extremely loaded since WWII and I’m 100% sure you realize that (it’s sort of like how in the 1930s people gave out good luck tokens with swastikas on them and now that would probably get you in trouble). So if you all want to play around with that terminology, especially given the troubling relationship the Left has with Judaism these days, be my guest. But at least admit that it’s not an innocent word choice. As Patrick Swayze says in Roadhouse, “It’s two nouns combined to elicit a prescribed response…” Those are the same kinds of games the president plays and you all should be better than that.Report
Mr. Dwyer,
I call concentration camps that because that’s what they are. In this case as well as others (including the camps Japanese-Americans were interned in). And has also been pointed out, not all Nazi concentration camps were death camps; most death camps became so late in the war; and far more Jews were murdered in trenches they first dug then were killed in the gas chambers. I’m so sorry your sensibilities are being offended by the truth, but frankly your sensibilities need to be offended. THIS IS NOT NORMAL. Nor should we let in become normal.
And yes, calling them concentration camps SHOULD elicit a response of horrible recoil – because we as Americans claim we are better then this. We claim a heritage of welcome to our shore for hardworking industrious types – which our neighbors to the south vastly prove themselves to be once they are here. If you want us on the left to “be better then the president” why not quit debating words, and go get the senior senator for your state who is aiding and abetting this purposeful cruelty sacked.
And as to the left having problems with Jews these days – we have problems with the government of Israel which continuously and illegally occupies territory not belonging to it for the purpose of removing Palestinians. That’s now about Jews – its about state sponsored terrorism. You should have a problem with that too.Report
Phillip,
You’re actually explaining why it’s okay to use the term by talking about how Nazis didn’t actually plan to kill all the Jews at first. Gross. Also, I’ve studied a LOT os U.S. history and the most commonly used terminology for the Japanese American sites during WWII is ‘internment camps’. Using that term would have been much more appropriate given that both occurred within U.S. borders and while tragic, internment camps do not have the same history as Nazi concentration camps. Or, more accurately, we could just call them refugee camps, since that is actually what these people are. Again, you all are choosing that specific term to illicit a response, which you achieved, but all it does it harden would-be allies against you because we simply don’t want to be dragged into the extremes of partisanship that the far Left and Far Right traffic in.
As for the problematic relationship with the Left and Jews these days, I think you are once again minimizing this as some sort of principled disagreement with Israel and not Anti-Semitism rearing its head again. Is Israel even an important topic these days? Or is it just because a few freshmen congresspeople and Jeremy Corbin said so?
(Also: McConnell isn’t up for re-election until next year).Report
The liberal urge to label and name call
Yeah.Report
I went back to the Boer War because that is the source from which Hitler appropriated the term (Konzentrationslage), though it had also previously been used by the Imperial German Army in Southwest Africa for death camps used in the Herero genocide.
I don’t share your assessment of the NAZIs. In the early 1920s, Hitler promised to force the Jews into concentration camps using the same language of disease and contamination he was also using euphemistically to call for extermination. The concentration camps were designed to implement the final solution, but language like “concentration camps” suggested these were simply internment camps, like the British had administered poorly.
They weren’t the same thing, and the use of the term “concentration camps” was a form of political doublespeak that allowed people to know what was really going on, while having plausible deniability of what was really going on.Report
Who knew what when is a question that will probably never be resolved completely. Certainly the Americans who liberated them were completely unprepared for what they found, and one of the reasons they filmed them was to document conditions they were concerned would not be believed. Not that video evidence deters the deniers. Hitler’s Willing Executioners, which argues that ordinary Germans knew exactly what was going on, remains controversial.
Have you ever seen Casablanca? Victor Laszlo (Ingrid Bergman’s husband) is described as having escaped from a German concentration camp, and he’s in good health and says nothing about the horrors he found there. The implication is that it’s a prison camp, not a death camp.Report
Well, there’s another tickling problem connecting unlimited Central American migration and Jewish issues. The combined Jewish population of Nicaragua, Honduras, and El Salvador wouldn’t come close to filling the studio audience on The Price is Right. Many Central American Jews long ago fled to the US, Israel, or Europe because of anti-Semitism. Guatemala is only somewhat better, with a population of 900 Jews.
According to the ADL, in 2011, 9% of white Americans held anti-Semitic views, whereas 42% of foreign born Hispanics did. And many of those foreign born Hispanics are from places that are much friendlier to Jews, such as Argentina (a Nazi haven), Chile, and Mexico, as opposed to Central America, where some of the countries are down to their last hundred.
So there are complexities, indeed. Are we re-importing the common Southern racial attitudes of the 1950’s? According to quite a lot of survey data, we apparently are.Report
There were a lot of things that were unique to the Nazis, but the basic idea underlying the Holocaust wasn’t one.
All around the world and all throughout history, there have been ethnic clashes and some sort of desire to Get Rid of Those People. Most civilizations just lacked the industrial means to do it.
ICE is consciously inflicting horrors upon these people because the administration wants them to. The administration is giving these orders because the party base wants them to. Adam Serwers’ comment that The Cruelty Is The Point” gets at the point precisely.
As long as there are 60 million Americans willing to vote for these horrors again, a just and humane society will be an uphill slog for us.Report
ICE is actually very nice. Most ICE agents on the Southern border are Hispanic, and a great many are immigrants themselves. The families who cross the border hope to find ICE agents waiting for them, and run up to them as their saviors who will haul them directly to a “concentration camp” instead of more and more walking.
The non-families, of course, young males, drug runners, and such, avoid ICE like the plague.
So now ICE is giving DNA tests to all the families who come in, and finding that about 30% of the children aren’t related to the people claiming to be their parents. That’s one of the reason many of the children in the detention centers are no longer with an adult. They’re kidnapping victims or loaners or something. Some apparently come and go repeatedly, being used as slaves by the human smuggling cartels. I guess the offer is “For an added fee, we will give you a small child who you can abandon later.”
And ICE has to try and sort that all out.Report
As somebody who has to deal with ICE frequently. I call bull on this.Report
Do you deal with the Hispanic ICE agents who work the border, or the ICE agents who live somewhere else?Report
You guys should be more imaginative.
Decades ago, those same fairytales became The Official Story;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Official_StoryReport
I believe you are conflating ICE with CBP. Which is understandable given the alphabet soup.Report
“Man, this is really calling out the American Libertarians. I expect all 35 of you to go vote next time, this is all you fault!!”
Mean while Muslims in China…..nothin’Report
“This is family blog…”
Wait, what?Report
Yeah, fuck that noise.Report
“We need to be building permanent facilities whose use can be ramped up or down as the situation requires.”
So the solution to the concentration camps is to make them nicer camps?
Like…sure, I don’t disagree, but that’s gonna end up with your catching heat from both sides of the argument…Report
True that. But we aren’t just going to fling open the doors of this country. Even before this, immigrants were being detained so their cases could be processed. And if the alarmist are right that climate change is going to drive future waves of immigration, we’re only going to get more and more people.Report
Also, gentlemen of good faith tackling the thorny Big Issue of exactly what is the best and most intellectually precise term to use when referring to keeping young children separated from their parents while living in terrible conditions might be peak Ordinary Times.Report
Where is the “like” button when you need it?Report
Temporally, I didn’t build that.Report
The debate over what to call them is a good to way to distract ourselves from what’s actually going on.Report
[like button]Report
It’s meta-outrage.
I’m outraged that you used a term than evokes outrage because you are outraged about something that is outrageous.Report
Exactly this.
It’s obvious that AOC was playing the Twitter outrage game, and it seems to have worked. Now a lot of people are griping that her choice of term is a “distraction,” but they want it to be a distraction.
At the same time, quite predictably, we are at least talking about conditions in the camps.
It’s almost as if the only way to get people to bite into an issue is to turn it into a dumb meme war.Report
I agree with you but also have a question. What do you think people should do to protest against Trump and the camps while also sticking with in the realm of acceptable action under liberal democracy and rule of law? Or do you think we should abandon rule of law and organize cells that bust the kids out of the camps and drive them to Canada in protected caravans?
I’m totally serious. One of the dangers of the Trump years is delivering blows to liberal democracy and engaging in a never-ending game of trashing. If we do this, the whackos at the Oregon State Capital might do real violence (they might do it anyway).Report
This is a very, very important question.
Given that they’re Concentration Camps… now what? Rule of Law seems to have failed if Rule of Law can lead to Concentration Camps.
It was all fun and games when we were talking about punching Nazis and we were talking about interrupting a guy who was talking but now we’re talking about Camp Guards.
Morally, what is our obligation in this situation? Assuming Concentration Camps, of course.Report
I may be at risk of violating the norms of civility here, but since we are in a truly terrible, dark time, I am compelled to suggest a drastic and radical solution.
If all else fails, you could vote for a Democrat.
There. I’ve said it, and I stand by it.Report
So this is a Concentration Camp situation that can wait until November 2020?Report
Yes, because it will take about that long for people to run out of excuses to justify voting Republican.Report
I hope they don’t, instead, vote third party.
(I was worried that Concentration Camps required something other than voting. Saul got into what he thought they’d require above. I’ll let him know that he just needs to vote ‘D’.)Report
Third party voting is what people do when neither of the two major parties is a threat to their interests.Report
To be fair: it’s also what they do when both of them are.Report
Yes, and it demonstrates what the priorities are- e.g. Big Gulp bans, vs child abuse.
Even if someone views both of them as threats, it is revealing to see which one is prioritized.Report
And I can cleanse my soul by agreeing with you and voting for your preferred candidate?
That seems pretty facile, Chip.Report
I’m not seeing an argument here.Report
Didn’t your father explain that to you?
“Son, liberals don’t want to hear your opinion, they want to hear their opinion coming out of your mouth.”
It’s still a classic.
Also, though people may question Trump’s immigration policies, under a Democrat administration tens of thousands of innocent Central American children would die in the deserts of Texas, Arizona, and new Mexico because we banned big gulps.
As Ross Perot used to ask, Is that the future we want to leave to our children?Report
Chip,
No one was talking about this until AOC made her ill-advised remarks. Now it’s the existential topic for 2020?Report
Have you got a more important one?Report
We could start with inner city crime in the US. Where actual Americans are actually dying? Mostly in Democratic-run cities? Ring a bell?Report
So we should also address crime in addition to the camps.
I’m on board.Report
Chip,
Inner city crime has been a problem that Democrats have ignored for decades. You all have been in a tizzy about this detainment issue for about 5 minutes. I don’t know if that speaks to the power of AOC to get the Far Left ramped up or if it is just about seeing a cudgel to use against Trump next year, but probably both.
You do realize that if we could conduct a survey probably a vast majority of Americans would say this is a very low priority for them, meanwhile you all are invoking images of the Holocaust. there’s a tremendous disconnect there and I think that’s more a problem of progressives than the masses.Report
Inner city crime rates? You mean the ones that are half the rate they were in the 90s?
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R45236.pdf is pretty clear on the matter (Figures 5 and 6 are quite straightforward).
In fact, it looks quite a bit like random fluctuations (see Figure 8), which can lead to fun numbers (“Homicide rates increased 150% in Arlington Texas, strangely not run by Democrats, due to having 8 homicides in 2015 and 21 in 2016. A rate of 5.3 per 100k. What an inner city hellhole!)Report
Of course you’re both right. Crime rates are lower than they were, but they’re still too high, particularly homicide rates.
That said, there is a stark categorical difference between 1) cruelty directly enacted by the government, performed by government employees, in camps managed by officials, and 2) the ever-present reality of poverty and crime. The prior is a willful act. The latter is a result of complex social ills. Treating those as if they are the same kind of moral failure is facile.Report
It depends how much of a role the government played in creating the conditions for inner-city crime to thrive. In some cases, it was quite a lot, as they herded minorities into government housing projects because the government had decided to use the GI Bill, HUD, and other instruments to try to keep blacks out of the suburban housing boom that started with “Levittown.” This was the greatest single factor in the existing wealth disparity between white and blacks, as the whites saw their home values massively skyrocket over the decades, giving them tremendous equity, whereas inner city areas just got run down.
Second, the Democrats and more than a few judges have created the current border crisis by purposefully creating an attractive nuisance, and are still milking it for all its worth. They need suffering and millions of people standing around in shelters.
All those people will create vastly more demand for government jobs and services, causing states to erect entire bureaucracies simply to cater to them.Report
Gotta say, I’m diggin’ this woke, Cornel West/ Black Lives Matter turn your comments have taken.Report
Here’s the thing; the stuff George is (correctly) pointing out is stuff I have been hearing in conservative circles for years. But we don’t get to talk about how Democrats created these conditions because they are the self-proclaimed Friends of Black People.
Since you all are so eager to co-opt terminology closely associated with the Holocaust, let’s talk about another word associated with Jewish peoples…ghettos. Most of the ghettos in this country were created by Democrats, maintained by Democrats and still a major source of political power for Democrats. Why are Republicans able to so effectively gerrymander districts? Because Democrats spent decades concentrating minorities into segregated areas of the city, doing their best to keep them on the dole and expecting them to turn out the vote every 2-4 years. I mean, geez, we all know this is also why Democrats love the idea of doing away with the electoral college because their long history of concentrating segments of the population would benefit them greatly in that scenario.
As I said, the problem of inner city crime has gone on for decades. A couple of tweets from a congresswoman that has been serving for about 6 months and you believe we are facing a moral disaster on the southern border. It’s utterly astounding how quickly you all switch gears. And here’s the truth: If the Trump administration allowed every asylum-seeker into the country they would get pushed very quickly to the bottom of the economic ladder, possibly concentrated themselves and quickly enlisted to serve the Democrat cause.
Report
But we don’t get to talk about how Democrats created these conditions because they are the self-proclaimed Friends of Black People.
Who is this “we” who “don’t get to talk about” the “American Carnage” in our inner cities? Who is stopping you? Unless the firm expression of disagreement on the merits counts, and lately I’ve seen far too many comments on a variety of topics suggesting that this is exactly the point.Report
“and quickly enlisted to serve the Democrat cause.”
Hey, I think I found the real argument here, all along!Report
And note the “Democrat” tell.Report
CJ – Respectfully, grow up. I’ve been doing this a long, long time. I’m well-aware how cranked up liberals get if a conservative leaves the -ic off of that word. It was a typo. I don’t have time for the kind of word games that you (and your profession) traffic in.Report
“It was a typo” is four words. You seem to have time to say a lot more than that. We’ll just have to leave it to the candid reader what to believe.Report
From past comments I take it that you are a bit technologically challenged so allow me to help:
– Press Ctrl + F on your keyboard
– Type Democratic into the little box that pops up
– Use the little arrows to scroll through the results and read the comments
I use the word ‘Democratic’ in this comment thread four times. Seriously, if you are going to just being a nuisance, at least get better at it.Report
if you are going to just being a nuisance
I suppose everyone would agree that that’s a typo.Report
@George — It’s certainly true that conditions in the city are partly a result of political mismanagement. On the other hand, cities are cities. They’re naturally hard to manage, precisely because a large number of people in an area will concentrate all the human failings in one place. Furthermore, I don’t think humans really know how to manage large groups of people. We make mistake. We muddle through.
And if Republicans take charge of the cities?
Good luck with that. You’d get greedy asshole Republicans running things, and they’d take payoffs and make bad choices and fuck up crime policy, just as those before them have — plus they’d cater to bigotry and xenophobia, because that is what the Republicans today are.
It’s unsurprising that in a two party system, one party went the direction of fascism and the other did not. It’s probably a (kind of) natural process.
The point: when a politician seems to delight in cruelty toward asylum seekers, and another does not, and if a large number of people prefer the prior to the latter, and when this falls largely on racial lines … ?
“But the Republicans will run things better?”
Will they?
Perhaps they’ll make the trains run on time, perhaps not. But values matter.
Crime is down in the cities. Is this because of a sudden influx of great mayors?
I doubt it. It’s other stuff quite beyond the scope of policy.
#####
Have you watched that one documentary about how that Joe Arpaio ran his jails? He’s a fascist monster, a sociopathic freakshow. Also, he’s Trumps buddy. Moreover, Trump’s base seems to love the guy.
And the Republican party chose Trump. That is what the Republican party is — a party of cruelty who will torture prisoners, asylum seekers, and the children of asylum seekers.
At some point you have to say, “Actually, no. This is deeply wrong.”
You all can play the “whaddabout” game with this, but that reveals what you are.Report
The numbers are still unacceptable. Seriously, if liberals applied even 1% of the outrage they feel over every mass shooting to inner city crime, we might actually see the number halved again. 43 people were shot in Chicago over Memorial Day weekend. We had 3 killed this past weekend in my much smaller city. And you’re hand-waving it away?Report
24 immigrants have died in ICE custody during the Trump administration. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/24-immigrants-have-died-ice-custody-during-trump-administration-n1015291
That’s roughly 8 a year. We’re currently averaging roughly 40k detainees a day.
The implication is that Arlington Texas is indeed a greater hellhole than the “concentration” camps.Report
Well, the Central American countries the asylum seekers are fleeing have homicide rates that are only slightly higher than LA’s in the1980’s. I don’t recall waves of celebrities, athletes, or anyone fleeing to Canada, Sweden, or the UK back then.Report
Big picture the difference is mostly Facebook and Skype.
My wife talks with her relatives in the native country about who is doing what. Who has a new job. Who has a new house. Who has gotten pregnant, divorced, killed, beaten, or whatever.
That doesn’t create problems between Poland and the US.
However if the topic of conversation is “I’m being terrorized by X gang”, then the solution of “come live with me, nothing like that happens around here and this is how you do it” can present itself.Report
Only 3,000 people died in 9-11 which was far, far less than died in gun violence that year, so really, it was completely overblown.
This is all just desperate deflection to avoid talking about the deliberate torment and cruelty which the GOP base is supporting.Report
It’s not deflection Chip – it’s calling out the absurdity of this latest manufactured outrage. None of the woke class is going to Mexico to help these people when they arrive at our border. None of these politicians are calling for support from international organizations for this refugee crisis. Instead you all are doing the easiest thing by sitting in front of your computers and literally comparing it to the Holocaust to score political points. Meanwhile 6 months from now we will all be wondering, “Whatever happened to the concern about the asylum seekers?” as you all move on to the next Cause of the Day.
I heard someone say the other day that it was funny how all the Vietnam War protests stopped when they ended the draft. I suspect this will be no different. When there are no more points left to score, liberals will quickly lose interest.Report
You don’t find the way we are treating these children outrageous?Report
Sure. but I also think that the way we treat lots of people is outrageous. i don’t have the luxury of turning everything into a crusade. My preference would be to reunite the families, give them all a backpack full of MREs and send them back to Mexico until we can process them correctly.
Or I would also endorse moving them into the empty dorms on some college campuses and bringing in law students to help them with their asylum status. I could give you a list of universities if you would like?Report
You’re just repeating my words back to me.
You don’t like this, necessarily, but its not a priority for you, compared to your other policy preferences.Report
I’d probably be more sympathetic if you showed any willingness to point the finger at both sides of the aisle. The Democratic controlled Congress could do significant things to help tomorrow.Report
@ Mike,
The Democrats in Congress offered Trump $20 Billion more then the Administration requested last August for immigration, including his wall, and asked politely for him to actually deal with DACA – which Mr. Obama created because the Republican controlled Senate refused to take up immigration reform. Mr. Trump said sure sounds great, and 24 hours later backed down. So In September They said $10 Billion, no Wall and fix DACA. Mr. Trump said no. They Offered $5 Billion in November – again over what the Administration requested – and again he said no. I sat on my hands for 35 days because the government ran out authority to spend its money over this.
ANd now House Democrats have passed an emergency funding bill without Republican support and Senate Democrats have joined their republican colleagues to pass a similar bill. At what point, in the present day, will Democrats have done enough for you?Report
“At what point, in the present day, will Democrats have done enough for you?”
When they stop oscillating between concern for immigrants when it suits their political goals and a complete lack of concern when it doesn’t. This entire issue has been so much theater and even as someone who is extremely pro-immigration, the idea of flinging open our doors and letting all of these people in with no structure in place is ludicrous.Report
It appears that whatever compassion you have for the suffering refugees is swamped by your disdain for Democrats.Report
If it’s so cruel, why are about a million people a year walking the length of Mexico and paying thousands of dollars to coyotes just to get a chance to stay in an ICE detention center for two weeks? Disney executives are probably trying to figure out what makes the processing centers so popular so they can replicate it and boost ticket sales for their theme parks.
If thousands of people a day are trying to get into your prison system, you’re doing something completely wrong.
In contrast, only one person, a hero of the Polish resistance, is known to have willingly broken into Auschwitz.
And it’s your side that’s supporting the cruelty, even trying to stop the immigrant children from getting really nice beds that are already paid for (see AOC’s tweet below).
Of course that’s on top of enticing millions of people to abandon their property, pay their life’s savings to an unscrupulous human trafficker, and drag their kids through the desert, just on the off chance that they can be treated like a second-class person by rich urban white folks before they eventually get rounded up and deported.Report
So you’re putting pressure on the Dems to send resources down to the border to help these people? No? Because it’s much more useful to point fingers and blame?
The GOP didn’t put these people on the border.
The GOP and the Dems agreed to these stupid laws back in the 80’s.
Trump’s immigration policy is largely the same as Obama’s, he’s just more ham handed about it and more willing to experiment with how to deal with the problem… and the Press is looking for stories which make him look bad rather than stories which make him look good.
You and I both believe something a lot closer to open borders is the actual solution, but there really is something to the idea that the Dems in Congress are deliberately underfunding an emergency to make Trump look bad… and not caring about those children they’re crying crocodile tears over.Report
There is no reason why these people need to be detained. None.
The government could easily just let them go until their cases are heard.
There are no bureaucratic excuses for this. The cruelty is deliberate.Report
Where do they go after the government releases them? How many are you taking in?Report
The government could easily spend $775 per day to put them up in hotels.Report
So that’s what it comes down to? Show up on the Mexican border, claim asylum and we put you up in a hotel. Are you serious that this is your policy proposal? This is a refugee crisis. Mexico allowed them to cross their entire country undeterred. They should be responsible for them, with international assistance.
It seems clear to me that liberals have worked themselves up into an outrage storm in the last couple of weeks and they aren’t really thinking clearly at this point. As others have pointed out, this problem will likely continue for years to come and you want to just open the door.Report
Yes.
America should let them in because we are a New Colossus, the Mother of Exiles:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”Report
Cynthia Chase(Democrat):
“are the single biggest threat the state is facing today. There is, legally, nothing we can do to prevent them from moving here to take over the state, which is their openly stated goal.
In this country you can move anywhere you choose and they have that same right. What we can do is to make the environment here so unwelcoming that some will choose not to come, and some may actually leave. One way is to pass measures that will restrict the “freedoms” that they think they will find here.”Report
Chip,
I am not suggesting we don’t let them in. I’m suggesting it needs to be done better. As I have stated numerous times, this is an international refugee crisis and should be handled as such. Mexico allowed these people to enter their country and march south to north unmolested and show up on our doorstep demanding entry. Democrats are all too happy to oblige because they need the political points. What should happen is that they stay in Mexico in a Red Cross or UN run refugee camp until we can process their requests. Send our National Guard to help them, just like we have in many other refugee crises around the world. But they are not exclusively OUR problem.Report
No one can ever just explain what be wrong with just letting all come in legally.
There always seems to be a very concerted effort to make it a grave Unsolvable Dilemma.Report
Remember this?
Good times.Report
Between children suffering in cages and open borders, what are you willing to offer as compromise?Report
That is kind of what I was getting at in several of my other comments. If you want to discuss a generational immigration policy for the most sought-after country on the planet you’re going to have to have a stronger stomach Chip. ‘Kids in cages’ should not cause you to throw out common sense.Report
Remember all the comments about how liberal overreach pushed moderate conservatives to radicalism?
What do you think concentration camps will do to moderate border liberals?Report
Well I honestly don’t believe that moderate liberals are going to be fooled by hyperbole. I give them more credit than to change their policy preferences based on sensational word choices (moderates in general being notoriously rationale in their thought processes).
With that said, you are basically advocating for open borders when a year ago you said that was a red herring. So the Far Left is going in that direction while most of the country believes we still need some kind of controls in place. You all have turned this into some kind of moral cause and therefore anyone that opposes your goals is a fascist. As David Frum says though, “If liberals insist that only fascists will enforce borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals refuse to do.”
Again Chip, there is a serious disconnect between progressives and the rest of the country.Report
Open Borders is like Free Trade,a word that means all sorts of different things .
It can be anything from the status quo to complete anarchy.
What I suggest is a much more liberal definition of refugee, larger number of work visas, and more streamlined process.
Which I believe would admit almost all of the people currently being detained.Report
I would suggest you read through this article from David Frum, particularly Section III:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/04/david-frum-how-much-immigration-is-too-much/583252/
He does a good job of outlining just how much potential there is for immigration to explode in the coming years and all of the risks posed to the US. He’s not saying we shouldn’t take them, but that we have to be a lot smarter about planning for it.
Also, regarding people waiting to get into the US:
“The backlog of people whose immigration petitions have been approved for entry but who have not yet been admitted is now nearing 4 million.”
You might deduce that most of those people are patiently waiting overseas, not showing up on our doorstep or tragically swimming across rivers with young children because they have to get in RIGHT NOW. I’m still perplexed how those 4 million people do not represent a moral crisis but the refugees on our doorstep do?Report
I don’t need to read it.
David Frum is exhibit A for how immigrants can mess up our nation.
Yes, these people who are fleeing from violence in Central America do in fact need to get in RIGHT NOW.
The fact they are willing to endure horrific hardships to get here proves that point.Report
Camel meet sand….ugh.
You keep ignoring specific points so let me try one last time. There are millions of people overseas that are waiting to get into the US, many of whom are claiming asylum, and none of you were screaming about that. These asylum seekers could wait in Mexico if you all simply led the effort to get decent refugee camps setup.
It’s a simple question: if asylum seekers abroad are not put on planes to await a decision in the US, why do asylum seekers on the southern border need to come in RIGHT NOW?Report
What I’m ignoring is the underlying premise here which is that the concentration camps are an unavoidable outcome of a good faith effort by the Trump administration to process refugees with humanity and justice.
That claim is such an outrageous fabrication that I refuse to even engage with it- I would sooner debate a flat earth creationist.
There are dozens, hundreds of possible policies which would allow us to process and handle immigrants and refugees in a humane and just manner, but the Trump administration has not pursued any.
Instead, they have acted with a malevolence and depraved indifference towards them right from the moment he uttered the line about them being rapists and murderers.Report
Have there been any votes for additional funding recently?
Did you urge your congressperson to vote yes on it?Report
I’m sure our comments passed by each other.
Please read what i just wrote about not engaging with the idea that the administration is acting in a good faith effort to make things better for the immigrants.Report
Well, I guess there’s nothing left to do but wait until next November and vote ‘D’.
First Primary Debate is tonight!Report
We do handle immigrants and refugees is a humane and just manner. They have green cards and visas and paperwork all lined up before they ever hop off the plane. It’s hard to get more humane and just than making one of them the First Lady of the United States before she even loses her accent.
Charging across a country’s border does not make a person an immigrant, and in many parts of the world would just get you shot.Report
Chip – 4 million people abroad that have been approved to enter the US and have not been given the green light. You had ZERO concern for them.
AOC puts an idea in your head and suddenly this is a humanitarian crisis that merits open borders? Do these people get to skip to the front of the line because they showed up in person or because they have captured the emotional angle? Meanwhile, the faceless millions that were already on the list get ignored by the Left?Report
I’m one of the libertarian ideologues, Chip.
But I still think that you don’t want Concentration Camps vs. Open Borders on the ballot.
But if you want a compromise, how about what Obama said?
Report
Great!
But in order to evaluate their asylum claims, we would need to welcome them in, house them in decent conditions, treat their illnesses, allow them to be represented with counsel to appeal their rulings…
I’m liking this Obama fellow.Report
That’s nonsense. There is no reason they need to enter the US and become our problem until their claims have been evaluated. You do realize people ask us for asylum from overseas all the time and we don’t put them on the next plane…right?Report
Then we probably need a lot more funding for ICE…Report
I’ve never figured out why banks don’t just give everyone free vault samples to make people happy.
Why are we not in charge?!!!Report
Although it’s something I normally avoid when dealing with Trump, he’s been so consistent for so many decades that we need to assume he’s sincere in his beliefs. I.e. Trump and his crew really do believe that these refugees are functionally dangerous criminals because of their culture. They’re not pandering to the xenophobia crowd, they’re card carrying members.
A lot of these suggestions are non-starters for that world view, i.e. we’d never deal with prison overcrowding by giving them hotel rooms or by releasing them and trusting them to come back. Willie Horton showed how that would work to Dukakis when the later tried treating criminals as victims.Report
Getting rid of gun control.Report
Pretty much every issue is more important than the southern border, at least according to Democrats.
“a fake crisis at the border.” – Nancy Pelosi
“a crisis that does not exist.” – Chuck Schumer
“There is no crisis at the border.” – Steny Hoyer
“There is no crisis at the border.” – Jerry Nadler
” “We don’t have a border crisis.” – Debbie Wasserman-Schultz
“an imaginary border crisis.” – Joe Scarborough, MSNBC
“a fake border crisis.” – Jimmy Kimmel
“make-believe crisis.” – WaPo’s editorial board
They were also of course denying any funds to upgrade the detention facilities, and still are. Today’s excuse from Nancy is that she can’t risk passing a bill for it because Trump might twist the issue or misuse the funds.Report
And AOC for the win, again!
AOC tweet
She’s showing support for Mayfair workers who are staging a walkout because their company sold Trump $200,000 worth of children’s beds for the processing centers.
As I said, Democrats want the children sleeping on concrete no matter what they have to do to make that happen, including denying the children beds that Trump is paying for.
They are some sick, sick people.Report
Or vote 3rd party, cause, y’know, that’s an option too.Report
I figure there is going to be a lot of folks throwing the cucumber.
(in reference to Jays linked video of fairness.)Report
I’m completely open to voting for a Democrat but every time one of the liberals on this site suggests it I am immediately suspicious.Report
I’m way past that, I’m wondering if voting creates an out group destined to throw cucumbers.Report
Voting Republican or Democrat on immigration doesn’t matter anymore because Trump just got Mexico to send 15,000 soldiers to guard their side of the border against migrants, along with sending troops to their own southern border to keep Central Americans from overrunning Mexico. So the question is whether you’ll switch your vote to MORENA, PAN, or PRI.
Now obviously, MORENA are a bunch of evil thugs for stopping all the human trafficking of innocent Central American children who just want to go to the United States, but is PRI really any better? Instead of spending two weeks in a US processing facility, all the wonderful immigrant children will probably rot in a Mexican prison.
I, for one, will pretend to be outraged. Those Mexican banditos stole our election issue and our future unregistered voters!Report
Saul,
Also serious question – where are the mobs of outraged liberals outside these facilities? Or why not cross the border into Mexico and help these people before they are detained in the U.S. ? It’s summer, people have time off, why not do that instead of taking the kids to the Grand Canyon or Clearwater?Report
Yes, that’s just what American citizens should do in response to horrific abuse by the American government.
Go thousands of miles away to another nation and work quietly without disturbing anyone.
Not vote for the opposition party, not bring lawsuits, not attend protests, not even write angry posts online.
Just…go far, far away, and be quiet.Report
Chip, c’mon man. Be serious. It’s 2019. There are lots of media options. Are you telling me that if hundreds (thousands?) of well-meaning liberals went to Mexico to help these people they couldn’t get that message out and back to people in the United States? Those images couldn’t be broadcasted across the country to show how magnanimous you all are? And what an embarrassment it would be for the president to see AOC and all of the Democratic presidential candidates down there taking care of these people in partnership with international groups. Something tells me Warren and Booker and Harris could convince a few news networks to come down and join them. Seems like good PR for the DNC. But…that isn’t actually going to happen.
The reality is that the people so outraged aren’t actually going to do anything other than be outraged.Report
Or do you think we should abandon rule of law and organize cells that bust the kids out of the camps and drive them to Canada in protected caravans?
Saul, you just have to vote for Democrats.Report
Why don’t we go back to what we called them during the Obama administration? I mean, the press seemed to be OK with that.
“More than 60,000 unaccompanied children arrived at the southern border in 2014, most from the Northern Triangle countries of El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala, putting the Obama administration in a difficult position.” NPR
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683623555/president-obama-also-faced-a-crisis-at-the-southern-border
“Obama officials rushed to explain photos from 2014 that went viral showing locked-up immigrant children — and Trump’s facilities look the same” Business Insider.
https://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5
Remember when the Obama speechwriter tweeted out pics of the children, but it turned out that the particular pics were from 2014? Pepperidge Farms remembers. (See above article)
So, what has really changed? Did we import some ex Ukrainian SS guards? Was someone down in Texas in the last two weeks, looking for campaign donations? Did kids only start crying now and during the Obama years they were happy fun camps? What is the washer schedule and did the kids bring changes of clothes?
Do we have a press that loved the last president and loathes the current one? Is this so bad that we can not trust any reporting concerning either of these presidents, now or then, due to ideological bias?
One thing I do know is that like it or not, the term concentration camp has stuck the landing, and that is the term that will be used from now on. AOC is almost as good as Trump at this kind of game.
Report
We changed from an administration that saw overcrowding as a problem to be fixed, to one that sees it as a feature to be accentuated.Report
There is a difference between someone dealing with an unexpected and dramatic influx of immigrants, as happened in 2014, and someone dealing with while imposing draconian conditions and zero tolerance polices, as is happening now. Obama was bad; Trump is much worse.Report
How have the, as you put it, “draconian conditions” changed? I linked to articles showing the mistreatment of children, of caging them as well as separating them from their parents, during the Obama admin. Did we, all of a sudden, take away the washing machines? The wash times? How have they become more “draconian?”
Looking at the Ken White quote above, I subquote: “Before Sarah Fabian defended concrete floors and bright lights for President Donald Trump, she defended putting kids in solitary confinement for President Barack Obama.” So, has anything changed? Really changed? I mean, there are pictures of kids in those conditions from the Obama admin. So, I would say, nothing has changed outside of the letter next to Trump’s name.
Like him or not, he campaigned on this issue, that there was a border crisis. And that we needed Zero Tolerance. Seeing how that came after Obama’s handling of border issues, maybe this is what happens after that “dramatic and unexpected influx.” Jaybird, up above, spells out the issue quite succinctly – open borders, or a welfare state. Personally, I will take the open borders, but that isn’t a question being put forward at this time.Report
Obama did not separate children; he was dealing in an influx of unaccompanied minors. And Obama did not deliberately implement such ideas as a way of punishing immigrants. And the feds have admitted the conditions have gotten far worse, with several times the detainees we had under Obama.Report
“Previous administrations used family detention facilities, allowing the whole family to stay together while awaiting their deportation case in immigration court, or alternatives to detention, which required families to be tracked but released from custody to await their court date,” Brown and her co-author, Tim O’Shea, wrote in an explainer piece for the Bipartisan Policy Center’s website. “Some children may have been separated from the adults they entered with, in cases where the family relationship could not be established, child trafficking was suspected, or there were not sufficient family detention facilities available. … However, the zero-tolerance policy is the first time that a policy resulting in separation is being applied across the board.” (emp added)
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/did-the-obama-administration-separate-families/
So, it did happen during the Obama admin but is happening 100% now. Is this the result of ZT policies? I would definitely say so. And yes, it is worse. So, I was wrong about that.Report
The big issue here of Congress getting off of their collective butts is that Congress is controlled by two different parties. Democrats control the House and Republicans control the Senate. We might want to believe in our heart of hearts that partisanship is just a silly thing and the American people (and their politicians) will always come together to do the right-thing but that is not true. Most (if not all) Republicans in government are either fully in the Trump Camp now or they live in such fear of the Trump camp that they fear a primary from the right wing more. They would also rather keep their jobs than lose it for doing the morally correct action.
McConnell has no interest in letting any legislation that does the right thing come to the floor.
Let’s be honest too, there are lots of Americans, maybe not a majority, but certainly tens of millions of Americans, that do think the cruelty is the point and don’t see anything wrong with Fabian’s argument.Report
Define “the right thing” here?Report
Kevin Drum in despair on a different but kind of related matter:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/06/donald-trump-is-an-alleged-serial-sexual-assaulter/
“This episode hasn’t gotten an awful lot of attention. This is the first I’ve written about it, for example. Why? I don’t think it has anything to do with media outlets not taking rape allegations seriously. The real answer is almost worse: (a) everybody just assumes the story is true and (b) everybody knows that it will have no effect on either Trump’s fans or his Republican Party colleagues. Trump will issue a pro forma denial; nobody will take it seriously; and that will be that. Just like the other 15 times.
Even after more than two years, I wake up every morning and I can’t believe that Donald Trump is the president of the United States. It’s a stain we’ll never live down.”Report
I think the benefit of calling them concentration camps isn’t some sort of pedantry.
Its to illustrate that terrible things CAN happen in America right here, right now.
Most of us, from the WWII generation to the Boomers and beyond, just float through life with the myth that tyranny and dictatorship and awful injustices can only happen in other countries, but never here.
We even hear it here, with people scoffing that since there aren’t any cattle cars or crematoria, then everything else is just hysteria.
But then, how would anyone know if they were living under a tyranny, a repressive state? In all repressive states, there is a very large group, usually a majority of people whose lives are ordinary and untroubled. For them, the ones that keep their heads down, don’t cause trouble, don’t attend protests, they are never harassed by the police, they never see the inside or a torture chamber, and never experience repression.
The only way to know if we are living in a repressive regime is to listen to the stories of those who experience repression.Report
Well, the other important reason to label them as concentration camps is to get people to realize that what happened to the Jews in Europe was really no worse than what’s going on in Texas or Arizona. The people pushing the “concentration camp” talking points are the same ones who’ve spent the last two years telling us to abolish ICE and that the evil Jews control the world. Rashida Tlaib said that thinking about the Holocaust gives her a calm feeling because the Palestinians saved the Jews after WW-II, while Ilhan Omar can’t figure out why calling them concentration camps is even controversial.
“Never forget? Never forget what?”
It’s like the DNC got so swept up in virtue signalling that they let David Duke took over the party.Report
“Well, the other important reason to label them as concentration camps is to get people to realize that what happened to the Jews in Europe was really no worse than what’s going on in Texas or Arizona. The people pushing the “concentration camp” talking points are the same ones who’ve spent the last two years telling us to abolish ICE and that the evil Jews control the world. Rashida Tlaib said that thinking about the Holocaust gives her a calm feeling because the Palestinians saved the Jews after WW-II, while Ilhan Omar can’t figure out why calling them concentration camps is even controversial.”
Well said George. I agree with 100% of it.Report
Sorry, that is transparently silly.
Anti-Semitism exists in a lot of corners of America and should rightfully be condemned.
But the idea that anyone who opposes ICE is anti-Semitic is desperate nonsense.
What makes whataboutism so risible is that it tacitly accepts the underlying message, in this case you both are admitting that the camps are horrors, but you just don’t like the people who are pointing it out.
So now that we all agree that the camps are horrors, what do Trumpists want to do about it?Report
“But the idea that anyone who opposes ICE is anti-Semitic is desperate nonsense.”
I don’t think anyone was suggesting that until they started throwing around Nazi-associated terminology to make their points.
“So now that we all agree that the camps are horrors, what do Trumpists want to do about it?”
I can’t speak to what the ‘Trumpists’ would do, but I’ve already suggested an option: Treat it like a refugee situation and get international relief organizations involved. Stop them in Mexico so they can’t go into the U.S. detainment system. Why isn’t that a viable option?Report
Because American citizens are not in control of Mexico.
But we are in control of the American government.
And we have the ability to welcome and process any number of asylum seekers and immigrants.
Heck, once we even built a massive facility just for that purpose, and erected a giant statue on top of it.
Why isn’t THAT an option?Report
Because the president is a tool?
I’ve been to Mexico. They’re pretty happy to have Americans there, especially along the border. I’m quite certain they would welcome some assistance. Stop making excuses and get in your car.Report
If the American president is a tool, isn’t that something the American citizens should do something about?
Seriously, how many excuses are you guys going to conjure up to avoid voting against Trump?Report
Chip,
I’ve probably said this on the site 20 times in the last year but let me be more declarative…
I AM NOT VOTING FOR TRUMP IN 2020!!!!!!
Happy? I didn’t vote for him in 2016 and I don’t plan to vote for him next year. But I think what you are actually asking is, why won’t I agree to vote for the Democratic nominee…right?Report
That may be too radical, but when your nation is tormenting thousands of innocent people, it may be the last desperate recourse.Report
Chip,
Giving power to Democrats as a consolation prize because they are less bad isn’t an option i am considering. As I said, I am deeply distrustful of any liberal suggesting I vote Democrat next year. The only one that is convince me is the candidate themselves and with the exception of two or three of them, I don’t see that happening.Report
Giving power to Democrats as a consolation prize because they are less bad isn’t an option i am considering.
Ralph Nader on line 2.Report
I voted for Nader in 2000.Report
And we can see how that worked out — assuming that how things actually work out is a relevant consideration. For some people it isn’t, but that’s on them.Report
Bush carried my state by 233,594 votes. Was I wrong to vote my conscience?Report
People for whom that’s the relevant question can answer it for themselves. Just don’t waste our time pretending you’re against Trump and realistically in play for effective opposition.Report
Option A: Democrats= higher taxes, possibly even a ban on Big Gulps;
Option B: Republicans= torture of children;
I can see the dilemma.Report
From the AP yesterday:
“Whether they are called prison cells or something else, Obama held children in temporary, ill-equipped facilities and built a large center in McAllen, Texas, that is used now.
Democrats routinely and inaccurately blame Trump for creating “cages” for children. They are actually referring to chain-link fencing inside the McAllen center — Obama’s creation.”
This is why I can’t take you seriously when you suggest voting for Democrats Chip. You are clearly just another partisan wanting to see your side in power. Why do you think more Americans are registered as (I) than with either party?Report
Again, that is an evasion.
Obama’s record was not perfect, but he wasn’t separating children, and was not inflicting deliberate cruelty, and most importantly, Obama is not on the ballot.
If you want to argue that all of the 2020 Dem candidates are no better than Trump in this regard, please make that case.Report
Chip,
‘Better than Trump’ is a very low bar. The point is that a Democrat could have created a humane and workable solution during their two terms in office and didn’t. That Trump would make it worse should have been expected, but Obama could have attempted to error-proof things when he was in the driver’s seat and chose not to.
As for 2020, you pretending their policies are as benign as tax hikes and Big Gulp taxes is extremely disingenuous. I have lots of reasons not to vote for Democrats that are much more serious. Again, every time you make a pitch for them it just makes me want to pull the lever for someone that is NOT in one of the two major parties.Report
Which of the potential Dem policies outweighs the horror of the camps?Report
Gun Control, for one.
I mean, imagine if voting didn’t change anything!Report
Chip,
I’m not actually horrified by the camps, but I have a pretty strong stomach for human suffering. It’s like Democrats and inner city crime.Report
Fortunately I’m a two-issue guy, neither of them is the subject of this post and comments, and the Republicans and Democrats are like night and day on my issues.Report
I’m typically about a 5 issue guy in a presidential election. None of them are covered in this post either.Report
“Giving power to Democrats as a consolation prize because they are less bad isn’t an option i am considering.”
Literally the only words you’ve ever said on this site with which I agree.
(The anti-semitism claim you’re making elsewhere is disgusting, and one Jewish people have decried vigorously when other conservatives like Cheney have made it, but hey, we have this moment right here.)Report
Again – calling a concentration camp a concentration camp isn’t an antisemitic act. It’s a factual description. That the Nazi’s used such camps to try and exterminate Jews is intolerable. They also used them to exterminate homosexuals, gypsies, and people from other European Countries. But I don’t see anyone running around saying we are committing bigotry against the LGBTQ community by using this label.Report
“They also used them to exterminate homosexuals, gypsies, and people from other European Countries. But I don’t see anyone running around saying we are committing bigotry against the LGBTQ community by using this label”
Geez…just stop.Report
Is there a leftward version of the Human Freedom Index that you could cite?Report
I’m disgusted by the treatment and agree 100% with the OP’s conclusion but this comparison is kind of ridiculous. These are foreign nationals, some of whom probably have legitimate claims to asylum, many more of whom are economic migrants using their children to improve their chances of gaming a broken system. They’ve all put themselves and their kids into US custody, we didn’t force them there.
We need to be humane and dedicate resources to deal with it properl but it’s wholly different than annexing territory then ethnically cleansing it or detaining minority citizens for similar purposes.Report
“They’ve all put themselves and their kids into US custody, we didn’t force them there.
We need to be humane and dedicate resources to deal with it properly but it’s wholly different than annexing territory then ethnically cleansing it or detaining minority citizens for similar purposes.”
Agreed.Report
For one reason or another, I was reminded of this Blast from the Past today.
The title of the post? “Do pro-lifers really believe that abortion is murder?”Report
Good news!
Pelosi says she’ll pass the Senate border funding bill.
Report
Eighteen Democrats said they can’t support her and will vote no. That means she may have trouble getting it passed unless some Republicans vote for the Senate Republican bill that Trump is demanding.
Perhaps the biggest loser in this is AOC, who not only insulted the memory of the Holocaust, moved acceptability of “concentration camps” into the Overton window, but also got caught out for posting photos of her weeping for the plight of immigrant children as she gazed at them in a detention center. The photos were staged a year ago in an empty parking lot. What she didn’t show was that the fence she was crying on ended about five feet to her left, where there was just more empty parking lot.Report
That Senate bill passed 84-8. It’s probably more accurate to call it “bipartisan”
And yes, the media doesn’t describe it that way.Report
I’m sure we’ll talk much more about this much more in the debate discussion, but most/all of the candidates on the stage tonight advocated for Open Borders. So that’s the Left is today. Yikes.Report