Ordinary World 8Apr19

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has since lived and traveled around the world several times over. Though frequently writing about politics out of a sense of duty and love of country, most of the time he would prefer discussions on history, culture, occasionally nerding on aviation, and his amateur foodie tendencies. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter @four4thefire and his writing website Yonder and Home.

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13 Responses

  1. Mike Dwyer says:

    OW2 – There was a quote from Bo Winegard that I read recently that seems applicable here:

    “The past is like an old, unused, and rotting library; the books are full of wisdom, but the building is ruined by insects and decay. The conservative wants to keep the library; the centrist wants to keep the books; and the progressive wants to burn the whole thing down and start over.”

    It feels weird to me that anyone would think Progressives would resist the urge to blow up institutions. That’s kind of their thing.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Mike Dwyer says:

      Which institutions are conservatives trying to preserve?
      Social Security? Medicare? The New Deal banking laws? The American aspiration of welcoming immigrants?

      Isn’t the whole premise of the Intellectual Dark Web and “classical liberalism” the free expression of the individual in defiance of social norms of behavior?

      And wasn’t Trump’s entire campaign based on burning down the entire edifice of The Elites, The (((Globalists))) and The Swamp?

      Isn’t that also the impetus behind Brexit and the Yellow Vests, the idea that the existing institutions are corrupted and rotting, and need to be destroyed in order to be rebuilt correctly?Report

      • Mike Dwyer in reply to Chip Daniels says:


        Our conversations would be more productive if you didn’t challenge every critique of the Left with a what-about-the-Right statement.

        The IDW is really just about being able to challenge mainstream ideas. The reasons why most SJ Liberals don’t like it because the IDW is primary challenging regressive ideas on that side of the aisle.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Mike Dwyer says:

          I am literally challenging your very quote from Bo Weingard, that conservatives are trying to preserve tradition while liberals want to destroy it.

          There is no single “tradition” that can be preserved. “Tradition” includes defenses of chattel slavery, and universal suffrage. It includes vicious xenophobia and tolerance of strangers.

          To assert a generalized defense of “tradition” as Winegard does is nonsense on stilts.Report

          • Mike Dwyer in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            Policies and institutions are not the same as traditions. American never had a tradition of slavery. It was a (terrible) policy in some of our colonies. Tradition transcends those things. It’s broader ideals like ‘America welcomes immigrants’ and ‘all Americans own public land’ and those values enshrined in the Bill of Rights.Report

            • veronica d in reply to Mike Dwyer says:

              American never had a tradition of slavery.

              I suspect this statement is false.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Mike Dwyer says:

              “Broader ideals” can also include horrible ideals, and traditions can include horrible traditions.

              Slavery was based on a very broad ideal of ethnic superiority. The idea that Europeans were somehow superior to all other ethnicities wasn’t some one-off, some quirky aberration to their beliefs. It was central to their ideals and a tradition for centuries.Report

              • Mike Dwyer in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I’m not going to get into the entire history of slavery, which literally goes back millenia and changed frequently, but I think you are grossly over-simplifying.

                Regardless, the quote I referenced also talks about Centrists, which is where I fall, so I’m not really looking to defend conservatism here. I think the point is, conservatives get hung up on tradition, progressives think nothing is sacred.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Mike Dwyer says:

                Isn’t one of the biggest criticisms of SJWs that they are priggish moralizers, latter day Puritans who scold and police language and behavior?

                This was actually one of criticisms back when I was a conservative, that the liberal who wants to smash the sacred icon actually has a sacred icon of his own that he very much wants to preserve.

                Which is still my point, that there is no single “tradition” to which we can appeal. There are multiple traditions and ideals which are sometimes honored, sometimes ignored, sometimes applied to this group or that.

                What we are usually fighting over is who gets protected by what ideal.Report

              • Mike Dwyer in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I think the argument would be that the SJL has become a religion more in the way it is structured and the way it functions, not so much regarding the actual ideals it upholds.Report

      • Aaron David in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        “Which institutions are conservatives trying to preserve?”

        Freedom of speach, freedom of religion, due process, you know, stuff that is in the consitution.Report

        • veronica d in reply to Aaron David says:

          It’s trivially easy to find conservatives working to undermine those very things. You can, of course, dismiss those cases using “no true Scottsman” style reasoning, but that will only undermine your honesty and credibility.Report

        • pillsy in reply to Aaron David says:

          That was a bit of a stretch before conservatives made Trump president; now it’s a sick joke.Report