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Mike Schilling

Mike has been a software engineer far longer than he would like to admit. He has strong opinions on baseball, software, science fiction, comedy, contract bridge, and European history, any of which he's willing to share with almost no prompting whatsoever.

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  1. Avatar Gaelen
    Ignored
    says:

    I have a feeling that four years from now I’ll still have that random wtf moment when I remember Donald j. Trump is our president.Report

  2. Avatar Kazzy
    Ignored
    says:

    “Donald J. Trump ?@realDonaldTrump 26 Dec 2016
    The world was gloomy before I won – there was no hope. Now the market is up nearly 10% and Christmas spending is over a trillion dollars!”

    It’s hard to take credit for Christmas happening but, well, there ya go.Report

    • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Kazzy
      Ignored
      says:

      It’s hard to take credit for Christmas happening but, well, there ya go.

      For God so loved the world that he gave himself, DONALD TRUMP, that whosoever voteth for him is a bigly winner, unlike the losers who did not, who are very sad people, just very sad.Report

  3. Avatar DavidTC
    Ignored
    says:

    So a friend of mine posted a meme yesterday on Facebook, let me explain it.

    It quoted that tweet, and said:

    Notice how Trump always says “enemies” instead of “opponents.” And those who “fought me” instead of “disagreed with me.”

    His endless rhetoric of personal war and us-vs-them is what keeps America divided.

    I had to point out that’s not quite right.

    Yes, Donald’s terminology is telling, but, ‘the president should have been polite when mentioning the defeat of the other side here’ is not correct.

    If there’s some sort of policy debate, and the Democrats go to the press and say ‘We don’t like what the Republicans are doing’, it is perfectly reasonable for the Republicans to say ‘Yeah, but you lost, so, uh, tough’. Do it politely, like the meme said, yes, unlike the rudeness of Trump.

    But, if you do it politely, it’s okay to mention it when talking about whose policy gets done. (It might be a bit silly and counterproductive to do it after losing the popular vote, but whatever.)

    But the problem is…this wasn’t a policy discussion.

    This was a *HOLIDAY GREETING*.

    The president should not have talked about the other side, or at least not talked about how they lost. That is an *absurd* thing to do in a holiday greeting. It doesn’t matter how polite it is.

    Hell, that’s not just absurd *for the president*. This isn’t some presidential norm he’s tripped over here. You don’t mock losers when wishing people holiday greetings! *Normal* people know not to do that.

    Actually, you’re not really supposed to mock losers *at all*. It’s called being a gracious winner.

    But you’re certainly not supposed to do it as part of a holiday greeting.Report

    • Avatar Kazzy in reply to DavidTC
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      says:

      I’m a little disappointed he didn’t punctuate it with “Keep the change, ya filthy animal.”Report

    • Avatar notme in reply to DavidTC
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      says:

      I seem to remember Hillary answering a debate question about her enemies and folks cheering.Report

      • Avatar Kazzy in reply to notme
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        says:

        Cite?Report

      • Avatar DavidTC in reply to notme
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        says:

        First, she said she was probably *their* enemy, not that they were *her* enemy. She was saying the Republicans probably thought of her as the enemy, not that she thought of them as the enemy.

        Second, you did notice I didn’t say you can’t ever call political opponents your ‘enemies’, right? I really don’t have a problem with that. It’s perhaps overly hostile, but it’s *okay* to be overly hostile at specific points in politics….and if anyone has a right to be overly hostile to anyone, it’s Hillary Clinton to Republicans. (Whether or not it’s a good thing to *say* that is something else.)

        What *I said was that a) you do not gloat over your defeated opponents (Whatever you call them) in politics, and b) you *especially* do not do it during a damn HOLIDAY GREETING.

        This tweet actually shows three very serious problems with Trump, sorta summarizing him in a nutshell:

        1) Trump cannot tell the difference between the generic situation of just saying some form of ‘Happy National Whatever Day This Is’ to *all* Americans, the sort of pointless platitudes the president is expected to do over and over…and a political situation.

        He doesn’t understand the president is often supposed to operate as ‘voice of the government’ instead of ‘a Democratic/Republican politician’. Sometimes there’s a fine line, but that line is nowhere near ‘generic holiday mention’. The president wishes everyone a good year, end of story, full stop. It is not rocket science.

        2) Trump defaults to hostility against people he sees as his enemies in *all* situations. Even in situations where *society* (Not just presidential norms, but actual society itself) demands a lack of hostility, like saying ‘Happy New Year’ to people.

        Even actual mortal enemies are supposed to be able to politely ignore each other as they walk past on the street, or even *pretend* to wish each other a good morning, or not start yelling at each other in social situations.

        3) Trump’s hostility includes gloating, something that generally isn’t acceptable in politics. Or, really, in real life either.

        Seriously, people, I mean, imagine a New Years Party, where everyone counts down, and yells Happy New Year, and then one guy keeps yelling ‘Even for that asshole Pete over in the corner, the loser who got fired from his job last week. He doesn’t even know how he’s going to pay his rent this month, what a loser! Meanwhile, I just got promoted! Sucks to be Pete! But Happy New Year anyway Pete!’

        Wait, imagine that, but imagine you’re at some local ball drop (Or whatever your town drops), and it’s *the guy MCing the thing* doing that.

        Trump not only can’t manage not doing that, he can’t manage that *impersonally on Twitter*.

        What the actual fuck? It’s becoming extremely clear we elected someone with a *serious personality disorder*.Report

    • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to DavidTC
      Ignored
      says:

      @davidtc

      Richard Branson said he was invited by Trump to lunch and Trump spent the entire dinner talking about how 5 people refused to help him or slighted him in some way and then spent the rest of the dinner talking about how he was going to destroy those five people.

      https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/meeting-donald-trump

      Donald Trump is an incredibly thin-skinned man who can’t let anything go. All the people who voted against him, all the people who mocked him, all the people who spoke against him, are to be humiliated again and again. The good thing about being a left critic of Trump is that he was never going to consider you for a cabinet position in the first place. But look at what he did to former opponents who decided they wanted a prize or to lackey up? He humiliated them again and again and they still got nothing. I don’t know who got it worse, Christie who was made to fetch Trump’s lunch from McDonalds or Romney.

      We will have to see what Trump can do to the opposition.

      But really this kind of rhetoric is just the logical conclusion of what the right-wing media has been doing for years. No wonder his fans cheer at it.Report

      • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Saul Degraw
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        says:

        The thing is here — it’ll never end. Because the people Trump wants the approval of? The people he wants to acknowledge him and praise him?

        It ain’t the American public and it’s not world leaders (not even Putin, although he’s so dreamy).

        It’s Hollywood and the New York moneyed elite. The guys that stopped inviting him to parties, stopped lending him money, made fun of him AND his show even though he’s a star like them!.

        That’s why SNL gets him every time, and while Alec Baldwin can jerk his chain without even trying. THOSE are the people he wants the approval of, the people whose disdain he recognizes and is incredibly sensitive about.

        So I guess it IS liberal’s fault. They treated a tight-fisted boor of a debtor like…a tight fisted boor of a debtor, and he’s gonna show THEM.

        And for the next four years, he’s going to be the most easily trolled person on the planet — because he can’t stop paying attention. Obama’s going to keep yanking his chain just by being more popular and continuing to exist — and having the approval of the very people that reject Trump.

        And for all I can tell, they’re right to reject him. He stiffs the help, welshes on his debts, the only charity he donates to was the slush fund he used to bribe officials and pay off lawsuits, and he apparently enjoys harassing actresses.

        What sane human being would invite him to a party if they didn’t have to?Report

        • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to Morat20
          Ignored
          says:

          @morat20

          People have been speculating about this for a long time. Garrison Kellior probably summed it up best.

          http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-donald-trump-losing-garrison-keillor-20160831-story.html

          This is painful for a Queens boy trying to win respect in Manhattan where the Times is the Supreme Liberal Jewish Anglican Arbiter of Who Has The Smarts and What Goes Where. When you came to Manhattan 40 years ago, you discovered that in entertainment, the press, politics, finance, everywhere you went, you ran into Jews, and they are not like you: Jews didn’t go in for big yachts and a fleet of aircraft — they showed off by way of philanthropy or by raising brilliant offspring. They sympathized with the civil rights movement. In Queens, blacks were a threat to property values — they belonged in the Bronx, not down the street. To the Times, Queens is Cleveland. Bush league. You are Queens. The casinos were totally Queens, the gold faucets in your triplex, the bragging, the insults, but you wanted to be liked by Those People. You wanted Mike Bloomberg to invite you to dinner at his townhouse. You wanted the Times to run a three-part story about you, that you meditate and are a passionate kayaker and collect 14th-century Islamic mosaics. You wish you were that person but you didn’t have the time.

          I am not sure how true this is but maybe it is true enough. I think that one thing that helped Trump is that he is from Queens and even though he grew up ultra-wealthy, he still has an outsider edge that people picked up on.Report

  4. Avatar North
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    says:

    I perversely find this sort of comforting. If Prez. DJT can’t manage this kind of low hanging fruit is speaks poorly for his ability to coordinate genuine change on things I care about.Report

    • Avatar Jaybird in reply to North
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      says:

      I’m looking at the Overton Window. I can’t tell if it’s moving or if it’s getting bigger.

      But stuff that didn’t used to be in it seems to be in it now.Report

      • Avatar North in reply to Jaybird
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        says:

        Probably too soon to tell.Report

        • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to North
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          says:

          The next six months will be crucial.Report

          • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling
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            says:

            Well, at least we can start arguing that we can’t believe that someone did or said something because “it’s 2017”.Report

          • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Mike Schilling
            Ignored
            says:

            The next six months will be crucial.

            In the sense that they are the part of time that has not been decided yet, and is about to happen next, yes.

            In the sense they will be unique, no. Donald Trump will be a problem for four years, or until impeached. It will not get any better.Report

            • Avatar Stillwater in reply to DavidTC
              Ignored
              says:

              Believe it or not, David Brooks said probably the best thing about Trump I’ve heard yet. When asked about the Russia Lovefest Trump’s engaging in, he said something like (I’m putting it in my own words now…) “right now Trump and Putin are courting, and soon they’ll try to get married in terms of policy, but given that each of them have huge egos and over-react to the merest slights, the divorce will be quick and acrimonious. And given Trump’s temperament, rather than Putin’s, the inevitable angry breakup should worry us all.”Report

            • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to DavidTC
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              says:

              In the sense that making g fu.n of Thomas Friedman is always appropriate.Report

      • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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        says:

        I think Trump has made us acutely aware there were actually some *other* Overton Windows we didn’t ever notice.

        We all knew about the Left/Right Overton Window, but he’s made us aware of the Asshole Overton Window, and the Corruption Overton Window, and the Competence Overton Window.Report

        • Avatar joke in reply to DavidTC
          Ignored
          says:

          But… Trump’s approval ratings have only increased since election day. I’m trying to wrap my brain around that, but there you go (could just be that the election is over and everything is going to some kind of low energy state)Report

    • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to North
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      says:

      Maybe.

      Normally Presidents are… Presidental. They skate above things with other people (often the VP) take the role of the designated bad guy.

      Thing is, no one is under the illusion that Trump is a nice guy.
      Or that the Dems are going to take losing to him with composure and good cheer.

      I’m not sure there was any low hanging fruit there. Trump is, once again, diverting attention from things that matter (what he’s doing) to things that don’t matter (what he’s saying).Report

      • Avatar North in reply to Dark Matter
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        says:

        When was the last time any party took to losing with good cheer and composure? Certainly not 2008 nor 2000 and definitely not ’92.Report

        • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to North
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          says:

          Sure, but even by those standards I think we’re cutting new ground.

          Some is the whole “didn’t start mourning until after the election” bit. Most elections have the winner known weeks or months in advance. Even in 2000 both sides knew losing was at least possible. The Dems though they had it in the bag.

          Some is losing to Trump, specifically. At various points in the election there was speculation that he was a Dem plant.

          Having said all that, I do wonder if it goes further than that and speaks poorly for the long term stability of the country. If it’s actually a matter of life or death for the top guy to be yours, then every election needs to have the rule book tossed out.Report

          • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Dark Matter
            Ignored
            says:

            “If it’s actually a matter of life or death for the top guy to be yours…”

            As evidenced by the hoards of roving Democrats laying siege to the land.Report

            • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Kazzy
              Ignored
              says:

              As evidenced by the hoards of roving Democrats laying siege to the land.

              How many riots did we have after the election? How many people, apparently seriously, thought that Trump’s election meant they personally were now in danger?

              The Imperial Presidency has not, yet, grown to the point where it’s a life or death matter.Report

              • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                I don’t recall any riots, but I wasn’t paying a lot of attention. Protests yes, there were a number of those.

                No one invaded a bird sanctuary, thankfully.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Morat20
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                says:

                Some football players sat or knelt for the national anthem, which is pretty much like a riot.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                My argument is that this election was not a life or death matter, but that if Trump-and-Co’s vision is realized, there are many people in this country who will be substantially harmed.

                Very understandable opposition to Trump is being treated like hysterical wailing with zero basis in reality.Report

              • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Because both sides have to be the same. If they’re not the same, you may be forced to vote against your team.

                But if they’re the same on [insert whatever issue here], then it’s a wash. Ergo, Hillary must have been JUST as corrupt as Trump, meaning Trump’s corruption couldn’t be an issue because HRC was the same.

                For the media BSDI is lazy journalism, an attempt to avoid having to get involved in complicated matters and just get a quote from both sides (and thus be “objective” which is better than anything ever).

                For pundits and a lot of voters, BSDI is necessary cover. Dealbreaking positions stop existing because both sides are the same on it which means you can ignore it and vote for your team or whatever.

                Liberal opposition to Trump must be equal — in all manner and context — to conservative opposition to Obama, because if it’s not then someone might have to change their side.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Morat20
                Ignored
                says:

                https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/815591048663728129

                He also has a funny one at the top of his feed right now:

                Maybe Putin is blackmailing Trump with a tape where he mocks POWs and the disabled while confessing to routine sexual assault.

                LolulzReport

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Morat20
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                says:

                BSDI also focuses attention on the battle between personalities, like this was the Apprentice season finale, between Trump and Hillary.

                As someone here pointed out, Trump’s supporters don’t seem to have an agenda, no big policy initiatives, no change in direction for the government other than Piss Off Liberals and Stomp Hillary.

                Thus the shock and awe when they discover that there is now an incoming power center that has an agenda of its own, very different than any coal miner in West Virginia or steelworker in Ohio ever imagined.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                BSDI may be what both of you say, but in my view it’s primary function is to reduce “both sides” to exactly the same “its” which each side criticizes the other of doing. And the purpose of this is to signal an elevated viewpoint from which the “game” is being played. So, so-called “non-partisans” invoke this trick to maintain their abject and objectively justified rejection of entering into that abysmal fray, all the while advancing their own ideological views and policy positions fully accompanied by snipes at (in this case) the other side.

                From a media pov, BSDI constitutes a cover that they’re presenting the news impartially, fairly and objectively so’s to maintain street cred within the journalistic/media community. And they’re not wrong to do so, in one sense: if “both sides” reduces merely to the specific complaints Xs have about Ys (with the variables replaceable by Ls or Cs, or HRC or DJT, etc) then they’re absolutely correct. “Both sides complain about the other with equal strenuousity! Fair and balanced!”

                Of course, facts get left outa the calculus on either view. But that’s by design, tho serving different purposes in each case.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
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                says:

                My argument is that this election was not a life or death matter, but that if Trump-and-Co’s vision is realized, there are many people in this country who will be substantially harmed.

                Consider: Many people were already in the process of being substantially harmed to the point where they saw “disrupting the status quo” as preferable to maintaining it.

                I would suggest Chris Arnade’s work as a starting point for evidence for how this view is different from a simple “both sides do it”.

                When it comes to the media, the main thing to notice (and, perhaps, freak out about) is the whole issue of the uncertainty whether any particular criticism of Trump is grounded in aesthetics or grounded in policy given that there have been a metric buttload of aesthetic criticisms of Trump.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I don’t know if “harmed” is the right term.

                Pissed off? Disgusted? Rejectionist? Jacksonian?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                Was “substantially harmed” the right term in the first place?

                I’d be happy to use whatever we agree is the right term.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                What do you think is the right term? Kazzy’s closer to correct in the context of his usage than you are in the context of your usage of his usage.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                Should I have said “were dealing with the aftermath of having been substantially harmed”?

                Is this one of those things where one of us is talking relative position and the other is talking about absolute position?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Neither. I’m talking about semantics. “harmed” means many things, but to use the word deliberately ambiguously (as I’m inclined to believe you did, given your response) seems disingenuous.

                I’m not disagreeing with what I take to be your deeper point, btw. Just the means to demonstrate that point.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, how’s this:

                There are a bunch of people out there in a position where, were any of us placed within it, we would consider ourselves “harmed” to have been placed there.

                The people who are there also consider themselves harmed by being there despite perhaps not having traveled as far to get there as we would have had to travel to get there.

                It is these people who Chris Arnade is reporting on and it is his perspective that is worth considering, especially if one is hoping to avoid a “both sides do it” take on why people voted for Trump.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                and it is his perspective that is worth considering, especially if one is hoping to avoid a “both sides do it” take on why people voted for Trump.

                Man, now I’m really confused since you’re the one who introduced all this to make a “both sides do it” take.

                If you’re saying people are pissed off and feel mistreated and that’s why they voted for Trump, then say it. I’d agree.

                I just don’t think responding to Kazzy with a “the other side thinks they’re harmed too!” comment quite gets beyond the equivalence threshold. As if there was nothing at stake in this discussion other than “well, BSDI!”Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                Man, now I’m really confused since you’re the one who introduced all this to make a “both sides do it” take.

                I apologize for adding a “both sides do it” take to the discussion.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, now I fee like an a*****e.

                My gripe in these types of discussions is that two views can be correct: ie., that Kazzy’s view that certain types of people will experience harm as well as the view that folks who voted for Trump have already experienced harm (so that’s why they voted for him in particular) can be true.

                Are those (let’s stipulate) conflicting harms reconcilable politically? Maybe, maybe not. If they are, we ought to try to move along one path, if they aren’t we end up going along another path.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                The main thing I want to avoid is truth-independence.

                “This dynamic is going on.”
                “There is also another dynamic going on that is similar.”
                “BOTH SIDES DO IT! JESUS YOU ALWAYS PULL BOTH SIDES DO IT!”

                When “BSDI” comes out, it doesn’t even matter anymore whether there are multiple dynamics.

                The important thing is to get in the first word then, when someone else points out another dynamic, yell “BSDI!”

                And that has nothing to do with whether the dynamics exist and are the drivers behind various phenomenae.

                Are those (let’s stipulate) conflicting harms reconcilable politically?

                I have no idea.
                They very well might not be. We could easily be in a “we have to pick whose turn it is to be in the barrel” situation.

                If that’s the case, yelling “BSDI” makes a lot of sense. It pretty much does a good job of dismissing any concern that precludes fixing your own concerns.

                If, however, they can be reconciled… well, that’s why we need to make a proper diagnosis in the first place.

                Of course, at that point, it looks like we’re doing triage. And who are we to pretend to be doctors? Who are we to say “this is the guy who gets operated on”?Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                This reminds me of what undermines man domestic arguments.

                “Ugh, it really frustrates me when you leave your dirty laundry on the floor.”
                “Yea, well, you haven’t done dishes in a week!”
                Now what? Both people may be right. But you can’t really argue about the laundry and the dishes at the same time.

                A far more productive approach is, after the second person tries to shift the dynamic, to say, “I hear what you’re saying about the dishes. We should absolutely deal with that. But I really need to talk to you about the laundry right now. Let’s settle that and then we can discuss the dishes, now or at a later time of your choosing.”

                If I’m understanding you correctly, you seem to be encouraging the former, highly unproductive approach. “Quick… get a counter jab in so we don’t actually have to deal with their concerns.” Am I misunderstanding that?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                If I’m understanding you correctly, you seem to be encouraging the former, highly unproductive approach. “Quick… get a counter jab in so we don’t actually have to deal with their concerns.” Am I misunderstanding that?

                Encouraging? If anything, I merely noticing it and pointing it out.

                There are a lot of dynamics and a lot of people who have been hurt and there are a *LOT* of chores that just aren’t getting done.

                Now if we’re saying that we can’t argue dishes and laundry at the same time, and maybe we can’t, I’m saying that we’d be better off taking turns discussing the chores, first you can complain about the dishes, then I can complain about the laundry than saying “I don’t even need to listen to you complain about the dishes until I have clean laundry. To the washing machine… GO!”

                Because if we’re saying that we don’t have to listen to the other people until sufficient of our concerns are met, we are going to find ourselves wondering why they are not only not doing the dishes but no longer listening to us at all.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I think alternating is a good approach. The problem is that people often assume the presence of their own concerns justifies tuning out others. That helps no one.

                But the thing here was… YOU raised the other concerns. In response to an expression of concerns. No one here denied that concerns exist on all sides. But your response to an expression of concerns was reminding us that other people have concerns… a reality no one here denied and which was immaterial to the concerns being expressed.

                So, yea, I’d call that encouraging the approach by employing it.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                The other concerns were actual, though.

                So run with the analogy: “I worry that if Trump gets elected, people will stop doing laundry!”

                “People haven’t been doing the dishes for years.”

                “BOTH SIDES DO IT!”

                Now, is it fair to point out that the dishes haven’t been done for years in response to someone worrying about the laundry starting to not be done?

                Perhaps I should have let you continue to worry about the laundry.

                Exactly who do you think will be harmed by Trump’s election and how?

                We can look at stuff like abortion rights, employment numbers, and transgender issues. Will any of these harms be measurable?

                I think it’s important that they be measurable to some extent.

                If they’re not, we’re likely going to be able to use the exact same events to argue that these harms happened and that they didn’t because, as we said, these harms aren’t measurable.

                Let me know when you’re done.

                I think that there are other dynamics going on, measurable ones, I think that they are relevant to the debate but I want you to establish what you see as the relevant harms that you think are going to happen in Trump’s America first. We’re going to need to keep an eye out for them, after all.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I definitely think the harm can be measured. We can count the number of women who wanted abortions but couldn’t get them because of barriers that were erected. Hell, we could then calculate the costs to these families and society as a whole as the result of unwanted pregnancies being brought to term.

                LGBT rights… well, we could probably count up the folks who are denied services.

                And once we get to a 1, well, we have evidence of harm done.

                The good thing is that I don’t think most of the harms — on either side — are opposite ends of a balance. As I said above, we can address unemployment in the rust belt without touching abortion or LGBT rights.

                Where things get hairy is when the avoidance of these harms come into conflict with one another. At that point, we have to put both/all harms on the table and get into the nitty gritty.

                However, I have to point out a flaw with your approach.

                You posit that the person complaining about the dishes is different than the person complaining BSDI. I contend that they are one in the same. In fact, in this scenario, it was you who did both. You raised the issue of the harms suffered by Trump supporters as if that was itself a counter argument to the harms likely to be suffered by Trump opponents because, hey, both sides were harmed.Report

              • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                There’s a certain style of argumentation that doesn’t want to get into the weeds, because once you get into the weeds you’re dealing with complex realities that are complicated, hard to parse, often heavily contextual, and basically really, really messy.

                It’s a very ideological style, very “ivory tower”.

                Because you can be pure to your ideology (or in your denunciation of one) precisely because you’re avoiding the messy details of reality in favor of intellectual constructs.

                Everyone does it to some extent. There’s always a balance between the big picture view and the detail view, but when you run into arguments where details, where data itself, is irrelevant…..

                Well, that’s generally a sign you’re talking philosophy not real world problem solving. And there’s a nasty strain of that style that loves BSDI because it frees them from those petty details (like that both sides aren’t the same) to get back to that really interesting philosophical stuff.

                (Unsurprisingly, this is often done by people to whom those details really are irrelevant. Whatever context you’re discussing has nothing to do with them. If you’re not gay and wanting to get married, you can hand-wave away gay marriage to focus on things like “Should government be involved in marriage” because the question, to you, is pretty much entirely intellectual).Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Morat20
                Ignored
                says:

                Ideologically driven folks might be unwilling to look into the details regarding the policies and principles they support, but are often VERY keen on getting into the details when criticizing their opponent’s ideologically driven views. (“See this very small thing over here? The one I’m pointing at? You see it? BOOM! You suck!”)

                The devil may in fact reside in the details, but that cuts both ways. Or all ways indiscriminately. No ideologue comes out unscathed.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                To bring us back to marriage, let’s instead look at the iterated prisoners’ dilemma.

                To reframe your statement within the dilemma, you said (and this is a paraphrase) “I’m worried that the other prisoner will start defecting.”

                So when we point out that the other prisoner was a defectee multiple times in the dilemma, it is not a “both sides do it” to point out that we have defected against the person we’re worried about defecting against us.

                Indeed, worrying about them defecting against us is something that we ought to have done before we started defecting against him.

                “Both sides do it”, at that point, becomes an accurate way to describe an equilibrium within the dilemma.

                Which is different than the “both sides do it” of assigning moral culpability.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                To bring us back to marriage, let’s instead look at the iterated prisoners’ dilemma.

                *rimshot*Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                When “BSDI” comes out, it doesn’t even matter anymore whether there are multiple dynamics.

                That confuses – deliberately, in my view – the basic complaint, which is justified given you’re earlier comment: “There is also another dynamic going on that is similar.”

                Given that *in that sentence* you’re establishing an equivalence between the two dynamics (by using the word “similar”), it’s incumbent upon you, the speaker/critic, to identify in what ways the two dynamics are similar but not identical. Without that you become the person who’s introducing the BSDI equivalence, rather than, as you claim, your justifiably irritated interlocutor.

                Btw, BSDI is not an equivalence partisans make in a two sided war. That would make no sense, correct? (“We’re just the same as these guys, actually, so uh, yeah, I don’t know what we’re fighting about…”) It’s a judgment spectators of that war make to express disdain of, or contempt for the conflict (as well as signal that they’re above all that silly team-oriented, fray-based squabbling! Let’s not forget signaling theory here!).Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, my “both sides do it” was not saying “man, the Republicans in congress are like the Democrats in congress” but “you’re worried about laws and policies that will harm you and yours… I’d point out that there have been multiple laws and policies passed against the people who voted Trump and they’re shaking things up”.

                It wasn’t intended to be a particularly partisan observation as much as a “defectees gonna defect” observation.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Ie, instead of trying to reduce or change the meanings of descriptive terms into BSDI political terms, why not just use descriptively accurate terms?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, I thought that “substantially harmed” was an accurate enough descriptor of those who Chris Arnade refers to as “the back row”.

                Certainly not inaccurate to the point where it doesn’t describe why they weren’t willing to disrupt the status quo.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                That’s just it, tho. Those folks may be harmed (in some sense of that word) but that’s a different type of harm than Kazzy’s talking about wrt Trump’s policies (rolling back RoevWade, Muslim registries, deportations, etc).Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, Kazzy seems to be specifically carving out that he’s not talking about “life and death” harms, but other kinds.

                The people I’m talking about survived this long, that’s for sure.

                But that’s why I see them as relevant.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I agree but would argue that those people could be helped without harming many of the people Trump-and-Co are potentially going to harm.

                You can address unemployment without bathroom bills.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Further, the argument I’m seeing put forth is that liberals should sit down and shut up because Trump isn’t hanging people from the White House awning. My argument is that even if people don’t die as a result of Trump-and-Co’s policies, many people will be harmed.

                The truthiness of this seems independent of whether or not people were harmed by Obama’s policies or would have been harmed by Clinton’s.

                Here is how I’m seeing the discussion often going:
                1.) Liberals complain about something Trump says/does.
                2.) Non-liberals (or folks such as Dark Matter, however he identifies) argue that liberals ought not complain because no one is/will be dying in the streets.

                If liberals push back against that opposition, I struggle to see how a valid response is, “Well, Obama harmed people, too. And Clinton would have.” Even if that’s true (I agree that it is), it says nothing about the legitimacy of complaints about the harm caused or likely to arise from Trump-and-Co’s policy.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                My argument is that even if people don’t die as a result of Trump-and-Co’s policies, many people will be harmed.

                Oh, that’s probably true. That said, it is very important to not be crying wolf here.

                There has been a lot of wolf-crying in the last… I don’t even know how long. Can we go back far enough to remember when people were complaining about how women would be treated in Mitt Romney’s America? Comparing Mitt Romney to Hitler?

                It’s certainly true that there are people who would have been harmed if Romney got elected instead of Obama getting re-elected.

                I have no doubt of this. That said, it’s a difficult thing to gauge, isn’t it? I mean, looking back now, would it have been *THAT* bad if Romney got elected?

                Would it have been as bad as those who argued against his Freudian slips in which he indicated that he saw womens’ place as being in bondage indicated?

                I submit to you: no. It would not.

                If liberals push back against that opposition, I struggle to see how a valid response is, “Well, Obama harmed people, too. And Clinton would have.” Even if that’s true (I agree that it is), it says nothing about the legitimacy of complaints about the harm caused or likely to arise from Trump-and-Co’s policy.

                At this point, it becomes important to figure out what we’re measuring.
                Because if we agree that we’re just picking who gets hurt and how bad, it’s pretty important that we demonstrate that we’re good at measuring harm.

                The harm-measuring skills of the people who opposed, for example, Mitt Romney strike me as being calibrated imperfectly.

                Wolf has been called a lot. This calls future wolf calls into question.

                This is very, very bad because there is a wolf out there and, someday, we will very much wish that we had a shepherd class worth listening to.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                2.) Non-liberals (or folks such as Dark Matter, however he identifies) argue that liberals ought not complain because no one is/will be dying in the streets.

                Oh, I’m all over the place.

                And my point is Liberals need to pick their battles. If you react every time he’s an ass, then he owns you.

                He’ll have policy proposals out there which matter, and you’ll be complaining about some outrageous tweet which is totally off topic. Trump is sucking all the oxygen away from his opposition by deliberately mis-channeling your outrage.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                @dark-matter

                And I contend we can fight battles on multiple fronts because there is, what 60+ million of us and (supposedly) the entirety of the media?Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                And I contend we can fight battles on multiple fronts because there is, what 60+ million of us and (supposedly) the entirety of the media?

                Sounds like a good prescription for defeat in detail.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_in_detailReport

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Is there a point at which “we could help you without harming many of the people that your preferred politicians would harm!” evolves into a trivially true statement?

                That is, it’s true… but you never have thus far and why in the hell would someone have believed that Clinton would have offered the help that you’re talking about?Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                What “help” are we talking about? If it’s talking credit for other people’s actions and telling lies about bringing jobs back, yeah, she could have done that too.

                If it’s creating jobs rebuilding infrastructure, no, Clinton probably couldn’t have gotten that through an obstructionist GOP Congress. (Obama couldn’t.) Can Trump? We’ll see.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                CNN was on during dinner and the sound was off but the chyron read something to the effect of “FORD TO NOT BUILD FACTORY IN MEXICO, WILL BUILD IN MICHIGAN”.

                Followed by “CEO STATES ‘THIS IS A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE IN TRUMP'”.

                Now, you and I both know that there’s a lot of stuff going on with the Ford thing and it’s just as likely to have happened under Clinton.

                But that chyron… The narratives surrounding Trump seem to have lives of their own.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                What do real people think about CNN?

                I know that Fox is the “right wing” one and MSNBC is the “left wing” one and so I think they think that CNN is just the “centrist one that is a little left, but that’s just because everybody who works for it got a degree in journalism at one of those colleges that regularly has protests over whether white people with dredlocks are culturally appropriating African-American culture”.

                If that’s in the ballpark of being accurate, then even *THAT* one is pushing the Trump Saved These Jobs narrative.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I think CNN is stupid. No idea what real people think.Report

              • Avatar J_A in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                @jaybird

                Consider: Many people were already in the process of being substantially harmed to the point where they saw “disrupting the status quo” as preferable to maintaining it.

                Indeed they saw disrupting the status quo as preferable, but that just a subjective view, not an objective fact. There are millions of iterations of disrupting the status quo in which the disrupters will end objectively worse.

                And so far, most of the hints we have about scenarios of disruption bode quite gloomy for the disrupters, which will not see the mines reopen, or the industrial jobs come back, but might instead lose their health insurance, their Medicaid, their Medicare, and the industrial safety regulations that help keep the few remaining miners alive.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Very understandable opposition to Trump is being treated like hysterical wailing with zero basis in reality.

                Really? I see very little opposition to Trump that isn’t hysterical wailing. I think too many libs have internalized their own normalization ideas to their own detriment. I think they’d be better off if they’d treat Trump as a normal President and criticize him on that premise when the situation arises.Report

              • Avatar Kim in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                He’s so incompetent at losing that he became president!
                Even after the “dirty tapes” got released.

                HOW is that normal???Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Very understandable opposition to Trump is being treated like hysterical wailing with zero basis in reality.

                The very understandable opposition to Trump is being drowned out by the hysterical wailing.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                He’s spoken with a foreign leader to interfere with American foreign policy while still a private citizen. Not only does that violate all norms of behavior for presidents-elect, it’s against the law.

                Yeah, I know, hysterical wailing. I’ll try to say something sensible instead.

                He’s a stealth socialist who’s going to confiscate all of our guns, send his enemies to reeducation camps, and ban religion!

                Now do I sound like a sensible conservative?Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                Dark Matter: The very understandable opposition to Trump is being drowned out by the hysterical wailing.

                Mike Schilling: He’s spoken with a foreign leader to interfere with American foreign policy while still a private citizen. Not only does that violate all norms of behavior for presidents-elect, it’s against the law.

                Great example. So how much time/whitespace have we spent talking about *that* as opposed to him being an ass with the X-mas greeting and proposing having his daughter as first lady?Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Compared to how much time has been spent discussing whether Obama was born in the US? None.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Great example. So how much time/whitespace have we spent talking about *that* as opposed to him being an ass with the X-mas greeting and proposing having his daughter as first lady?

                It’s not how much time *we* spend, really.

                It’s how much time we can get *the media* to spend on it.

                As I said on the first lady thing, the proper response to that from people who oppose Trump is ‘Wow, that is an interesting thing Trump is doing there. Well, you’ve informed everyone of that, now how about you inform us about *rolls 20-sided die and picks reason that Trump should not be president from table* how Trump is threatening to leave our allies in Eastern Europe hanging because of his weird Putin entanglement.’

                The first lady thing was something that, correctly, was reported by the media as existing. We can’t blame them for that. The people opposing Trump could either make it a real story by (for some weird reason(1)) being upset by it, *reducing media resources*, or not make a story. (And, luckily, I think people managed to avoid the bait.)

                This tweet, OTOH, is worth mentioning, if only to add to the ‘Trump is an asshole and cannot stop being an asshole’ pile.

                ‘Look, he can’t even neutrally wish all Americans a New Year. Maybe there literally is something wrong with his brain.’

                It’s not something the media should spend a lot of time on, but it is something that should be added to the pile of evidence. Just keep talking about how Trump *cannot behave like a president*. That needs to *keep being talked about*.

                1) You know, even if the first lady thing *wasn’t* just a distraction, it’s not even slightly important and not anything the left or anyone else should be opposed to for any real reason. I mean, it’s an interesting side story, especially as this election we though we were going to have a disruption in the ‘Office’ of First Lady with Bill Clinton, and instead we get one in Ivanka Trump, and we really need to start thinking about our assumptions of all that stuff in the future, and perhaps some sort of ‘First Host’ position might make sense. But it doesn’t seem like there’s *any* reason to *object* to that situation. (Well, except Ivanka Trump also has the same foreign and domestic business entanglements Donald has.)Report

              • Avatar Marchmaine in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                Press Release: President-Elect Obama Calls Foreign Leaders Today
                November 18, 2008

                President-elect Barack Obama today returned phone calls to five world leaders and expressed his appreciation for their congratulations on his election. President-elect Obama spoke with:
                President Fernández de Kirchner of Argentina
                President Bachelet of Chile
                Taoiseach Cowen of Ireland
                President Nazarbayev of Kazakhstan
                President Abbas of the Palestinian Authority

                One can certainly question the prudence or motivation of accepting a call from the President of Taiwan, but the complaints that it violates law or custom just isn’t true.

                Accepting a call from the Palestinian Authority was certainly a signal that interferes with the policy of the sitting president. That’s somewhat the point… signals are signals and the incoming president makes them.

                You can debate the signal as much as you want… I have no problem with that, but calling into question the right of signalling lest we “normalize” something that is normal is the wrong fight.

                It’s the 140 character twitter fight, not an actual fight over policy towards China.Report

              • Avatar Gaelen in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                Not commenting on the Logan act issue, but I think the difference is taking congratulatory calls has no relation to US foreign policy.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Gaelen
                Ignored
                says:

                I believe Mike is referring to Trump’s call to Egypt’s leader to negotiate the UN/Israel vote.Report

              • Avatar Marchmaine in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Fair enough, Egypt is different than Taiwan, perhaps… but I’m not seeing a difference in the response. Which goes somewhat to the point that is being made upthread… don’t fight every twitter war as if its the war to fight.

                I doubt the Logan Act would hold-up to a president elect, but then the good news for Trump’s downfall is that he is inept at navigating the minefield. Eventually he’ll hit a real mine. Be ready for that time.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/egypt-trump-sisi-resolution-israel-settlements-161223064418355.html

                Is there any precedent for this? Is there any wording within the Logan Act that would make Trump’s actions legal?Report

              • Avatar Marchmaine in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Depends what you mean by precedent… if you mean every president-elect who was ever president-elect started contacting foreign governments and signalling their intentions, then yes.

                President-elect doing so rather ham-fistedly on meaningless matters, then not that I can recollect… unless Regan’s negotiations with Iran count. But then Reagan had the good sense to use back-channels and retain plausible deniability. Trump? He’s using front channels… that’s the break with tradition. All you’d succeed in doing is moving everything to back-channels – which is probably a good idea, but not the object of the exercise as far as I can see.

                But that’s my follow-on point… is the Logan act the bullet you want to shoot? Because I don’t think you’re going anywhere with that shot at the President-Elect. I can’t say for sure that it wouldn’t work, but (sticking with the hunting analogy) you’re taking a high risk long-distance shot with little chance of success while your prey is on a path to enter comfortably into range if you just wait.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                The reports indicate he explicitly negotiated with a foreign leader in direct opposition to US foreign policy as was being pursued by the federal government at the time. That seems a pretty clear violation of the Logan Act (as I understand it) and troubling because it undermines the sitting President’s (who IS the President for 17 more days) ability to do his job. Imagine there was an international incident in the next two weeks that required an immediate response from our government… would we really want foreign leaders to wonder who that response is going to come from or which one they ought to acknowledge if multiple ones come through?

                Maybe pursuing this would be a strategically poor choice but, good god, can we really not stop the partisan shit for 2 seconds and say, “Yea, he really shouldn’t have done that… that is highly problematic. We have one and only one President and that is currently Barack Obama and that will remain the case until January 20.”

                Probably not given that recent GOP shenanigans have essentially reduced the Presidency to a 3 year term with a do-nothing year tacked onto the end.Report

              • Avatar Marchmaine in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Go for it.

                I did say he shouldn’t have done that (the way he did it).

                Now, if there really was a big international response that truly required both immediate and long-term responses, the President-elect would weigh in – no matter who it was. That’s just not a constitutional crisis.

                But that’s still my larger point, Trump is unschooled in the art of governing… he’ll do many things in the next 4-years that are questionable, uncountable imprudent things, and quite possibly one or two that might be genuinely impeachable.

                I’m not being partisan… I think his actions are hamfisted and I expect his administration to be the equivalent of a corpse tumbling down a spiral staircase in slow motion.

                But President-elect getting involved with World Leaders days before his inauguration isn’t the outrageous act that will generate prison or impeachment.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                “But President-elect getting involved with World Leaders days before his inauguration isn’t the outrageous act that will generate prison or impeachment.”

                So much for law-and-order.Report

              • Avatar Marchmaine in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Do you think so?

                Do you really think Logan would catch a President-elect? Have you gamed out the effect of a weaponized Logan on people who visit Davos for reasons other than x-country skiing? Who’s restraining whom here?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                Is there a statute of limitations on Logan?

                Maybe we can finally get that Jane Fonda once and for all.

                Golly, if we start using this against celebrities, imagine the wonders we could create!Report

              • Avatar gregiank in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Have you seen the new evidence that Nixon “monkey wrenched” peace negations between us and Viet Nam right before the 68 election. It has long been considered a possibility but notes of meeting from Haldeman suggest he actually did it.

                http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/nixons-vietnam-treachery.htmlReport

              • Avatar Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Dude… Breitbart was wondering just this – way back in 2013 – with cases for Jesse Jackson, Jimmy Carter and Barak Obama ready to go. Sean Penn is reading this thread in fear and trembling.

                Plus, there should be at least a tiny bit of reflective irony in that America officially abstained… And John Kerry was totally not involved in drafting the resolution.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                I distinctly remember my grandfather telling my mother that he didn’t want her to go see “On Golden Pond”. The damn movie won, like, a kabillion oscars. He gave a large speech for him, a small speech by most any other measure, in which he said that he didn’t think much of Jane Fonda and that he didn’t think much of anybody who’d put money in her pocket.

                My mom, to the best of my knowledge, never went on to see On Golden Pond.

                As the jackboots kick her in the kidneys while someone in the room screams “STOP RESISTING”, I suppose I could console myself with the thought that I only care about law and order.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                …Jane Fonda…

                As the jackboots kick her in the kidneys while someone in the room screams “STOP RESISTING”, I suppose I could console myself with the thought that I only care about law and order.

                Reading over her wiki, I see *nothing* about her being physically attacked, as opposed to scorned. People think poorly of Jane because she was photographed during the war sitting on a North Korean anti-aircraft gun cheerfully clapping and applauding.

                The jackboots are imaginary, something the left tells itself to justify its actions. The anti-aircraft gun was real, and presumably killed US pilots.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Not North Korea. A different repressive autocracy.

                North Carolina.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                I’ve got no clue what you’re referring to. And “Jane Fonda Beaten” doesn’t show anything useful in google.

                Link?Report

              • Avatar Mark Boggs in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                He means North VietnamReport

          • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Dark Matter
            Ignored
            says:

            For Democrats, it’s life or death not to have the top guy be a vile, incompetent buffoon. For Republicans, it’s life or death not to have the top guy be someone who’d do a perfectly reasonable job but whom they’ve spent the past 25 years hating,

            Both sides do it.Report

          • Avatar North in reply to Dark Matter
            Ignored
            says:

            I’m probably biased but the ground seems pretty well trod. I haven’t seem the Dems suggest he’s not an American*, or that he’s a closet Muslim, or a closet communist
            yet. The year is young though.

            *Though a few of the wingier wingnuts have taken shots at his wife’s citizenship.Report

    • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to North
      Ignored
      says:

      He was too big an asshole to be nominated, till he wasn’t. Then he was too big an asshole to be elected, till he wasn’t. Now he’s too big an asshole to get his way on things. Very comforting.Report

    • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to North
      Ignored
      says:

      @north

      Might I suggest that your nonchalant attitude towards Trump has not had the best track record so far and it could be time to reconsider.

      Trump is not in power yet so he can’t do anything against his liberal or left critics. He could put Christie and Romney through a show and make them beg like craven idiot’s without a soul. But Trump does take power in 20 days and he doesn’t strike me as the type to take it lightly if a court rules against him or Democrats actually engage in constitutionally permissible obstructionism. There is also the Sessions’ DOJ which can be turned into a partisan office for screwing and persecuting the opposition.

      What is it going to take for you to be nonchalant and blase? Forced to move back to Canada? A massive, global depression? People getting rounded up into labor camps?Report

      • Avatar North in reply to Saul Degraw
        Ignored
        says:

        Well I grant I’ve been pretty consistently wrong about Trump in terms of his ability to win the nomination and HRC’s ability to beat him in the general.

        I would ask though, if we’re screaming now about Trump when he hasn’t done anything yet (because so far all he can do is shoot his mouth off) then will that make us more or less effective once he does do something deplorable and we scream about it? Also if we’re screaming and attacking Trump now, before he’s done anything, would that make a creature as presumably malleable as Trump is more or less likely to be willing to consider liberal proposals or objections?

        I mean what’s our strategy here? Is it principled opposition or Obama era full out opposition? Something else? Because whether the goal is to try and pull Trump to the left and work with him; simply protest and try and stop him when he does something bad or ape the GOP and secretly oppose everything he intends to do yelling about Trumps outrages before he’s done any huge outrages strikes me as contrary to all of those strategies.Report

        • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to North
          Ignored
          says:

          I see a lot of wishful thinking among my liberal friends, the idea that there is some magic silver bullet, a One Weird Trick that will devastate Trump and the GOP.
          I don’t think it works that way.
          There isn’t One Argument that works for all interest groups, not one big thing that will change millions of minds.

          Constant hammering of points, constant attacks from all different angles.
          A liberal attack on Trump; a conservative critique of the GOP; a religious moral argument against Trump; a economic utilitarian attack on the GOP.
          Personal stories by women who no longer have access to reproducive services; personal stories of working class people cut off from health coverage. Pocketbook issues like the minimum wage.
          Personal attacks on his Cabinet; Comparing the billionaires who loftily talk about how minimum wage workers don’t need breaks, as they themselves idle away their time on yachts.

          In the same way that “I’m from the government and I’m here to help you” went from being a warm promise in 1939 to a punchline in 1979, the tropes that hold up the GOP election victories like “fiscal conservatism”; “Running government like a business”; “we can say Merry Christmas again” need to be mocked and ridiculed endlessly until people get embarrassed to say them.Report

          • Avatar North in reply to Chip Daniels
            Ignored
            says:

            Okay and assuming we grant your premise does freaking the fish out over tweets lend itself to or hinder that strategy.
            Also, I wonder if it’s possible to replicate the “I’m from the government” rebranding now that those slogans have entire infrastructures of sustaining support interconnected together through the internet.Report

            • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to North
              Ignored
              says:

              I’m warming to the Berluscioni strategy of ignoring the antics and focusing on the actual harm.
              “He’s a clown” is not a bug for the GOP base, since their primary goal is to piss off liberals.
              His corruption, the swamp of Wall Street cronyism, and the pocketbook pain seem like better sources of resistance.

              I think that the “run government like a business” really is tired; for most people who have experienced downsizing, outsourcing, temping, and general fuckery by corporations, the image of the heroic CEO isn’t very powerful.Report

        • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to North
          Ignored
          says:

          The political science tends to suggest that the best strategy for the Democratic Party is to oppose Trump on every little thing and make the Republicans do all the work themselves rather than work with them. People tend to put all blame or give all credit to the President and punish or reward the President’s party accordingly. The Democratic Party needs to act on this strategy.Report

          • Avatar Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq
            Ignored
            says:

            This’ll work so long as you are somewhat in charge of the narrative.

            Do you feel in charge?Report

            • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
              Ignored
              says:

              Exactly. Playing cynical games is not what Dems are good at. (They have no gift for strategy…) Nor does it strike as a winning play in the long game. Pretty generally across the country Dems are getting their butts handed to them, and until that tide turns at the localish level pure obstructionism will look more like petulance than an expression of power.

              And to your other point, Dems right now lack a compelling narrative, and getting one should be the first order of business.Report

          • Avatar North in reply to LeeEsq
            Ignored
            says:

            Well sure, but freaking out over his tweets doesn’t really help that strategy. Loudly and insistently claiming that the Dems are trying to be bipartisan while refusing to cooperate is the 2008- present strategy that worked pretty well (politically) and freaking out over Trumps tweets works against that as far as I can see.

            Also, if we copy the modern GOP’s strategy on this we have to be willing to eat the cost as well: that in any area where Trump & Co get through the blockade liberals and Dems cede any influence over what shape the policy takes. I mean yeah Obama gave away a number of GOP wishlist items early on in an attempt to be bipartisan but Trump is definitely not trying to redo Obamaism.Report

            • Avatar Jaybird in reply to North
              Ignored
              says:

              One thing to maybe freak out about is how the senator with whom he has the longest relationship is the new minority leader.

              I mean, if you have any libertarian inclinations that is.Report

              • Avatar North in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I was gonna snark that I’d be more worried about him colluding with the Senate Majority leader and House Speaker to potentially liquidate the safety net wholesale but then I reread your comment and remembered we were looking at this from a libertarian perspective in which case those would be considered lifts.

                But yeah, Schumer, being a Senator from Trumps home state, does probably have a longer “relationship” with Trump than the others. That, of course, is relative. I’m also puzzled about what we fear the near powerless minority party leader will do, from a libertarian perspective at least?Report

        • Avatar DavidTC in reply to North
          Ignored
          says:

          I mean what’s our strategy here? Is it principled opposition or Obama era full out opposition? Something else?

          There were some people in my town arranging a protest on January 20th.

          Well, a ‘protest’. Real protests have *actual goals*. There is no possible goal that can be accomplished on January 20th. There is literally no goal listed except ‘Trump not be president’, but they don’t seem to have any idea of how to make that happen.

          So this ‘protest’ is just ‘We are going to make it clear we are opposed to this president before he’s done anything’

          Although, just to be clear, he actually *has* done a lot of stuff, and, as I’ve argue before, should not be allowed to become president because of his business entanglements and the emolument clauses. Congress needs to step up and do their job and impeach him before he takes power.

          But I *know* all that. I can make arguments to that effect, and I’ve been doing so on Facebook.

          But the people trying to do the ‘protest’ just have the argument ‘He’s an asshole, and we don’t like that he’s president’. Hell, they probably are not aware he can kept from taking office by impeachment. (Although not by starting a protest in a small Georgia town *an hour before the transfer of power*!)

          And ‘protest’ that is all people will see, and now ‘the left’ is opposed to the new president for ‘no good reason at all’, because those idiots have absolutely no coherent argument or goal.Report

  5. Avatar Kazzy
    Ignored
    says:

    I guess when a key advisor oversees a site that posts crap like this, what can we expect: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/01/01/2016-just-start-going-win-2017/Report

  6. Avatar Koz
    Ignored
    says:

    This seems like the same sort of thing the anti-Trump conservatives were complaining about during the campaign (and I was one of them).

    There’s a pretty clear operating double standard that just is. Trump can troll whoever he wants, but libs (or conservatives for that matter) can’t troll back. Trump can be opposed, but he can’t be trolled. I can’t even think of a way to explain it other than to say that Justin Bieber gets to have sex with groupies if he wants to but you don’t. The libs complaints about “normalization” seem to be working in reverse. I know I can’t be bothered about it.Report

  7. Avatar Stillwater
    Ignored
    says:

    He’s a Unifier, not a Divider!Report

  8. Avatar Damon
    Ignored
    says:

    If the communitariat is still talking about this type of BS 6 months from now, it’s going to be a LONG 4 or more years….Report

    • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Damon
      Ignored
      says:

      Oh, it’ll be four long years. I’m just curious why you think Trump’s petulant tweet isn’t worthy of criticism. He’s the Leader of the Free World-Elect and he consistently acts like a 4 year old right before being put in timeout.Report

      • Avatar Murali in reply to Stillwater
        Ignored
        says:

        Because if we devote our attention to every bullshit tweet he puts out (which is practically every tweet) we draw focus away from even more horrible stuff he will be doing. Everyone on our side already knows that he acts like a 4 year old. Everyone on their side already doesnt care. Immature Trump is not the angle that will win you 2020, even if it is true. Even though being president is a place where style does matter, this is still fairly characterised as elevating matters of style over those of substance. Rehtorically, strategically, dialectically, that is never a good place to be.Report

        • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Murali
          Ignored
          says:

          We’re entering really perverse territory.

          “They don’t care he’s a monster so let him act like a monster. That’s how we’ll stop future monsters.”

          There are, what, 60 million or so people who voted for Hillary? Surely SOME of us can focus on his Twitter nonsense while some of the rest of us can focus on other things, right?Report

          • Avatar Damon in reply to Kazzy
            Ignored
            says:

            “Surely SOME of us can focus on his Twitter nonsense while some of the rest of us can focus on other things, right?”

            So far, I’m not seeing that…not in the MSM..not here. Not anywhere. All I’ve heard and read, other than a little Russian nonsense and cabinet appointees, is how terrible Trump will be and “journalistic campaigns” for support to prevent the horrors that is “the donald”. That last one came from Slate. Maybe I missed it. I was out of pocket for the last week.Report

            • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Damon
              Ignored
              says:

              Maybe we live in different realities, since as far as I can tell, the exact same people who criticize his tweets also worry about and criticize his connections to Putin and Russia, his stance on NATO, his foreign policy in general, his trade policies, his domestic policies including Medicare, EPA regulations, climate change, etc and so on, IN ADDITION to his COIs.

              People are amazing things.Report

              • Avatar Damon in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                What I’ve seen is SPECULATION on what his policies will be. Other than the comment about nato countries paying their fair share, I’ve seen little specific policies announced, since, you know, he’s not president nor has an admin up and running.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Damon
                Ignored
                says:

                Since even you don’t know his policies, it’d be effing stupid for folks to write posts about what the Dems in congress should be doing, yes? I mean, what a waste of time!!Report

              • Avatar Damon in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Really? A few days after the election, I read on Slate articles about how “we must resist a trump presidency” and “don’t normalize this” type articles. That’s perfectly fine, but “here’s how the dems can shut down a trump presidency” or “what’s next for the dems” or “how the dems can take the congress/pres back in 4 years” it’s effing stupid?Report

              • Avatar joke in reply to Damon
                Ignored
                says:

                So… what is it exactly distracting us from? Not hypoetheticals, man. Give us the beef.Report

              • Avatar Gaelen in reply to Damon
                Ignored
                says:

                So we can’t complain when Trump’s actions show temperament and behaviors that are unpresidential and troubling for our commander in chief. We can’t complain about policies because it’s just speculation about what he is going to do. We can’t complain about the popular vote, Russian hacking, or Comey because that’s just sour grapes. Is there anything legitimate to complain about with this administration?

                Also, he has made policy proposals (not well thought out or supported, but what can you do?). He has a tax proposal, infrastructure project, withdrawing or renegotiate NAFTA, increased military spending.Report

          • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Kazzy
            Ignored
            says:

            “They don’t care he’s a monster so let him act like a monster. That’s how we’ll stop future monsters.”

            Monster? Because of a tweet which didn’t kill or injure anyone?

            At the moment he’s lacking social skills and/or deliberately manipulating people by pushing their buttons.Report

          • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Kazzy
            Ignored
            says:

            Frankly, I’d be satisfied if our media can learn not to quote Trump’s tweets in their headlines and give the impression that they’re conveying information about the real world. At this point, he seems to have figured out how to manipulate the news by making wild claims on Twitter knowing they’ll be quoted in headlines and maybe contradicted in paragraph four (as long as the writer studiously avoids outright saying Trump’s claim is untrue).Report

            • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Troublesome Frog
              Ignored
              says:

              At this point, he seems to have figured out how to manipulate the news by making wild claims on Twitter knowing they’ll be quoted in headlines

              (can’t remember where I read it but presumably based on a source within or close to the Trump campaign, but) it’s not something he’s recently figured out: it was pretty much the entire strategy of his campaign. Post a shocking, controversial tweet early in the morning on the predictable expectation that the media, twitterati, 24/7 cables news shows, etc, would drive his messaging for him thru the day and maybe even into tomorrow. IOW, he used his opponents hypersensitivity to PC-civility against them and (obvs) to his own advantage.Report

          • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
            Ignored
            says:

            “They don’t care he’s a monster so let him act like a monster……”

            Are we supposed to take this as obviously true prima facie? I can think a lot of ways to describe Donald Trump, many or most of them pejorative, and I wouldn’t necessarily buy this.Report

            • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
              Ignored
              says:

              And thus the normalization begins. He can’t wish the nation a Happy New Year without shitting on half of his constituency. Coupled with his other treatment towards anyone he perceives as standing in his way and I’m comfortable calling him a monster.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                I hate to break it to you but the normalization began a long time ago. As it stands, I think this Maginot Line in libs’ minds is a lost cause.

                The American people are thinking about managing Trump, working with Trump, minimizing the risks of his quirks and insecurities. The resistance of the refuseniks is just a means for the governing majority to simply write you out of the equation altogether.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                I find it hilarious, in a Peter Sellers-movie sort of way, that the most ringing defense of this Administration that can be made is to compare it to the rule of a mad and evil emperor, something that must be endured and suffered stoically.

                Combover Caligula, indeed.

                ETA: I wonder if future historians, sifting thru the ashes of once was, will conclude that the one called “Mike Dense”, was actually a sly political infighter, instead of the gibbering idiot he presented himself as, where he ascends to the throne after the fantastic despot is finally dispatched by the Secret Service.

                I, Claudius II- Electric BoogalooReport

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Yeah, I’m not buyin’ it. For all Trump’s insecurities and foibles, it’s also a substantial opportunity to break out of the cultural and mental sclerosis we’ve gotten into, and for that an occasion of some hope.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                The part I am and remain optimistic about is breaking out of institutional sclerosis. That’s not to say that breaking down some entrenched cultural norms isn’t valuable in its own right, but I’m more interested in how well/if at all Trump can break down the deadweight institutional inertia that governs so much of our governance.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                I think this is much more credible as a direction of liberal thought relative to some line of defense against “normalization” that’s not going to hold anyway.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                If I’m understanding you right, I agree. It’s not about normalizing a new set of policies. Not yet anyway. It’s much more about creating a political space where the possibility of deviation from the old can reside.

                That was Bernie’s message, too, albeit from the left.

                It’ll take some time before any complaints about “normalization” make sense*.

                *Well, except wrt conservatives criticisms of liberals, anyway. They’re likely never gonna get tired of that shtick.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                If anything, it’s about creating a new set of norms that might be upheld because there’s a strong majority consensus behind them.

                Ie, so far a lot of libs want to think “Whatever happens, we have to remind ourselves and others that Trump and his baggage isn’t normal, and respond to him based on that premise.”

                And then as a consequence you have libs watch Twitter and they see that Trump tweets whatever and so they tweet back “ZOMG LOL Trump!”

                I don’t think this is going to get any traction because American people (and for that matter the political establishment) is going to interpret these things in a much different way and just ignore the refuseniks.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                What you say is possible. But Trump is still pretty widely reviled in the electorate, by Dems univocally, by GOPers by about half. His policies don’t have a lot of leeway for failure. Nor does “Trumpism.”

                Rejectionism is easy, governing is hard. He’s on a very short leash. (Or let’s say it this way: he’s got to DELIVER or the whole shebang goes “bang”.)Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                That gets back to one of my other comments. Trump needs to do the wall and the SCOTUS appointment. If he does he’ll have a decent-sized leash. If he doesn’t he’ll have very little.

                One other thing about the downside of Trump that I don’t think libs have internalized. If Trump does crash and burn (gets impeached, resigns, dies, whatever) I think the GOP will be able to Teflon themselves away from him pretty easily. This is a weird situation where the divisive and rancorous GOP primary will actually help in terms of perception and governance.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                How long does he have to build the wall before he stars losing his base? Or can he play the “It’s not my fault” game indefinitely?Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                It’s not so much a matter of time as much as continuous momentum toward the construction and completion of the wall. As long as the momentum goes forward, he’ll have as much time as he needs.

                “It’s not my fault” is not going to fly at all. In fact, I think that’s the biggest danger for Trump among the Trump-GOP base. If they were willing to entertain that, they didn’t have to have Trump in the first place.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                How long does he have to build the wall before he stars losing his base?

                Just make a fence, hire some drones, have Trump make up a new word (air-fence?) and call it a day. Half of illegals enter legally and then overstay their visas so it won’t matter.

                Weirdly Trump could (more or less) continue what Obama was actually doing with different rhetoric. I think Obama has done FAR more rounding up of illegals than he wanted to take credit for… thus Obama’s adventures into publically claiming he was re-writing policy.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                how well/if at all Trump can break down the deadweight institutional inertia that governs so much of our governance.

                What the hell does that mean?
                Seriously, what the hell would that mean wrt Trump’s Cabinet, and the Senate and Congress now in power?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                The way defense spending is allocated; the way regulations are enforced; the way schools are funded and how; the way foreign policy is constructed; the way trade deals are made; the way the tax code is enforced; the way criminal justice is enforced; the way social programs are funded and allocations are provided; etc and so ad nauseum.

                I’m not wedded to very many of our current policies so I’m very open to their revision and a necessary part of that is breaking outa the old thinking.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                And which of his Cabinet members would improve any one of these things?
                Which members of Congress or Senate would improve any one of these things?
                For examp;e, will the defense contractors have even one bit less influence than they do now?
                Will the CEO of Hardee’s/ Carl’s Jr. make labor laws that are better in any appreciable way?
                Will our trade deals favor international corporations more, or less, than they do now?
                Will Mitch McConnell or Paul Ryan make the lives of working people better by fulfilling their promise to repeal Obamacare and privatize Medicare and Social Security?

                There seems to be this thinking that any change is bound to be better. I can think of a dozen ways in which change can be awful and worse.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Chip, I’m not the type of liberal you think I am.

                I’m ready for a shakeup. I’da preferred it to be Bernie, but I’m alright with Trump. He’s gonna rattle the cage, and to be honest the cage needs rattling and Hillary wasn’t gonna do it. She’da just caged it all in even more.*

                *Or whatever you call her type of politics…

                Add: Or I’ll say it this way: the electorate wanted the cage rattled and we ended up with Trump. It coulda been someone else, for sure. But it wasn’t.Report

              • Avatar Francis in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                “He’s gonna rattle the cage, and to be honest the cage needs rattling”

                There is a great deal of ruin in a nation. Giving the keys to someone who has neither interest nor experience in governance is one way to explore it.

                For deity’s sake, this isn’t a football team mired in a losing streak. Rattling cages just for the sake of shaking things up gets people killed, and possibly in large numbers.

                To return to a theme frequently explored on this blog, the Democratic solution to our country’s health care woes was to force everyone onto an insurance policy, then regulate the terms of the policy and the amount of subsidization.

                Beyond wishing that would put Peter Pan to shame, the Republican plan is essentially to force individuals to absorb more of the costs of their health care and, if they can’t, to do without. That policy approach will kill people.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Francis
                Ignored
                says:

                Beyond wishing that would put Peter Pan to shame, the Republican plan is essentially to force individuals to absorb more of the costs of their health care and, if they can’t, to do without. That policy approach will kill people.

                Every policy approach in health care kills people. Even if we had unlimited resources (which we don’t), the death rate holds steady at 100% and this isn’t going to change.

                The issue is one of resource utilization and efficiency, which is something that free markets tend to do very well and governments poorly.

                We have problems in that the markets are less than free (asymmetry of information among other problems), and various other problems but whatever.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Wait, do you seriously look at the US health care system and conclude that the only problem is that markets are less than free? This is theology, not analysis.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                Wait, do you seriously look at the US health care system and conclude that the only problem is that markets are less than free? This is theology, not analysis.

                The only problem? No.

                The most serious problem? Yes.

                A lack of free markets means we’re paying FAR more than we need to, on the orders of a significant part of the GDP. If we had the ability to squeeze money out of the system then we wouldn’t be breaking budgets left and right and there’d be money to spend on other things.

                A lack of free markets also has all sorts of nasty side effects other than “money”. For example the lack of transparency means I can’t research how safe “Hospital “A”” is over “Hospital ‘B'”, which means there’s no reason for whichever is worse to improve.

                Where we get into religion is when people look at Cuba’s economic system and say “I want that”. They’re still driving cars built from before the revolution because they have no other alternative.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Dude, are you even reading the other comments on this thread? We’re not looking at Cuba. We’re looking at France, and Canada, and Germany, and the UK, and Singapore, and all of the other dozens of countries that have universal access and radically lower per-unit costs. People who say we need less government are appealing to…nothing. To a fantasy, a matter of theological belief that markets are the way, no matter how clear it is that the nature of health care and the widespread moral demands around it make the normal function of a market impossible.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                …dozens of countries that have universal access and radically lower per-unit costs. People who say we need less government are appealing to…nothing. To a fantasy, a matter of theological belief that markets are the way…

                What we’re talking about is “how do we fix the current system”.

                The big options on the table are “more command and control” and “more market“. Basic economic theory has predictions for what will happen in each case, we should pay attention.

                It’s inappropriate to point to other countries’ systems and claim we can import every detail of them here. For example many of our HC issues go away if Americans become less fat, but changing that is unlikely without serious culture changes.

                Similarly, referring to “economic theory” as a “religion” is like trying to refer to the “Theory of Gravity” as a “religion”.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                it’s not that the economic theory is wrong, exactly. To my mind it’s like walking into a room full of engineers who are talking about different ways to reduce drag on an airplane and declaring that, because objects in motion remain in motion, there’s no need to do so at all. The 10,000 foot, big picture theory is not always helpful, and is often actively misleading, when you get down into a particular issue with a bunch of complicating factors.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Market efficiency is merely the matching of wealth and resources.

                If you have the money and want a toaster, you are matched with a guy who has a toaster and wants money.

                Why is this a desirable goal in medicine?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Maybe because wealthy people are more deserving of lifesaving treatments because everything, including your life, has a price?

                I dunno, of course. Just throwing that out there.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Market efficiency is merely the matching of wealth and resources. If you have the money and want a toaster, you are matched with a guy who has a toaster and wants money. Why is this a desirable goal in medicine?

                How much more efficient is the world’s best medical system than ours? Twice? Three times? And they don’t use much markets either?

                If the cost of medicine were a quarter what it actually is (look at the medical market for pets if you think that’s unreasonable), then there’d be a LOT more medicine actually available at a given price and we wouldn’t be worrying about breaking budgets.

                And to be real clear, so that there’s less of a “fantasy world” aspect to this, it means we would be letting sick people die if they didn’t have the money to stay alive.

                It also means there’d be a lot more money available for things like college, and paying for medicine out of pocket would be a lot less painful than it sounds.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                If you think that being poor and diabetic should be a death sentence, then I suppose we’re not going to able to argue very productively. I’d invite you to go make that case to the public and see how many elections it wins you.Report

              • Avatar Joe Sal in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                Geebus H. fellas.
                Dark is right about free markets. The way the damn markets are supposed to work is demand comes from subjective value. Let me say it again subjective value, and again, subjective value.

                Thats were the demand comes from. That is supposed to set the equilibrium for the iron triangle. Yes the iron triangle is supposed to balance out to meet the various demands of each subjective value in the system. No part of the triangle is supposed to be nailed down by any social construct.

                There, the damn thing is fully defined. You do anything to fuck around with that and the black market will start chewing holes in ass. Because black markets are just another name for your fucked up capitalism wasn’t really capitalism.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Joe Sal
                Ignored
                says:

                Again, it’s theology all the way down. What part of that comment is in any way specific to the problems of health care finance?Report

              • Avatar Joe Sal in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                That’s another reason you need the market. Finance assumes you need to find the price of the subjective value. Start anywhere else, your lost, mumbling to yourself in the fog.

                Not theology, it’s just regular math, unless people are starting to think regular math is church. If that’s the case, some men you can not reach, so ya get what we had here.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Joe Sal
                Ignored
                says:

                Start anywhere else, your lost, mumbling to yourself in the fog.

                Mm hm.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Joe Sal
                Ignored
                says:

                Finance assumes you need to find the price of the subjective value. Start anywhere else, your lost, mumbling to yourself in the fog.

                Finance doesn’t assume that. Some specific theories of (normative) economics do, tho.

                For a whole slew of goods and services markets are a better mechanism to allocate resources than central planning, but health care provision isn’t one of em.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                For a whole slew of goods and services markets are a better mechanism to allocate resources than central planning, but health care provision isn’t one of em.

                Why is central planning “a better mechanism to allocate resources” for health care?Report

              • Avatar Joe Sal in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Health care is just a service. It is a important service yes, but again if you start nailing down any part of the iron triangle you instantly make the supply not match the subjective values involved. It becomes inefficient, and not in a good way, like paying for parts of the iron triangle twice, or even three times, instead of once.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                If you think that being poor and diabetic should be a death sentence, then I suppose we’re not going to able to argue very productively.

                People are currently dying because your “command and control” solution results in only one, seriously expensive, epi-pen on the market. That’s what “resource inefficiencies” mean here and the epi-pen is only going to be one example of many.

                Countries which claim “food is a right” and insist on using command/control for it typically see starvation because command/control is *that* inefficient.

                The number of people who starved to death in the US last year was effectively zero, because we use the market and market friendly policies like food stamps.

                So give the poor guy in your example a voucher for medical care and let the market work (you can attach it to his food stamp card).Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Dark Matter:
                And to be real clear, so that there’s less of a “fantasy world” aspect to this, it means we would be letting sick people die if they didn’t have the money to stay alive.

                It also means there’d be a lot more money available for things like college, and paying for medicine out of pocket would be a lot less painful than it sounds.

                I’m not seeing how this is consistent with this:

                So give the poor guy in your example a voucher for medical care and let the market work (you can attach it to his food stamp card).

                Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                Part of that was me realizing how effective and market friendly Food Stamps are, part of it is we really do have 6 digit cures which only the rich (and/or insured) would have access to and we’d have to drop the idea that everyone can have everything.

                In any system, people are going to die because of a lack of resources. A market approach is a LOT more honest about that and skips the obfuscation that other systems try to use to hide it.

                Give everyone X dollars a year for HC. Someone is going to die because they need 2X, and the typical middle class guy with a middle class job will be able to pay it.

                Command and control tries to pretend that whatever treatment that someone needs can be reserved for him by preventing someone else who needs it less from taking it. That it also requires 0.75X be wasted through inefficiencies and unintended consequences isn’t mentioned.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                But of course there’s not a set amount of medical care to be distributed; there’s a demand curve that meets a supply curve somewhere. How much of different resources exist will depend upon our scheme to finance it.

                If we’re giving everybody a set medical care voucher, then we’ll have some people that get all of their medical needs covered by the voucher without problems, and other people who have expensive acute illnesses, chronic conditions, and disabilities. Those people still die if they’re poor and the voucher only makes a trivial difference.

                Of course I suppose you could get around that with insurance, so the costs of the very expensive sick are defrayed by the healthy, but why would insurance companies be willing to sell to people that are going to be predictably expensive to insure? You’ll have to require insurers to cover them, I suppose. But then if you do that there’s no reason for healthy people to buy insurance and the insurers will go out of business, so you’ll have to incentivize the healthy to buy insurance. Oh wait, oops, we just made the Affordable Care Act.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                Those people still die if they’re poor and the voucher only makes a trivial difference.

                Yes.

                It’s also true that many of them will be able to purchase treatment because the treatment itself won’t be so crazy expensive, but I’ve already pointed out that people will die.

                One of the huge disadvantages with this system is people will die, and they’ll know who they are. The vast numbers of people helped by the system (basically everyone but the first group) will mostly have the benefits taken for granted. Worse even people supposedly harmed by this system might be better off with this system than the command/control model because there will be more treatments available/created here.

                If someone is hungry they know it, if someone is not starving to death because the system works then they don’t know it.

                You’ll have to require insurers to cover them, I suppose.

                No.

                You don’t get to buy insurance after your house is on fire. There are things we should do to make sure people can keep their insurance, but that’s probably a different issue.

                In terms of insurance reform what we probably want to do is outlaw everything but major medical. Insurance is supposed to cover big things, not the equiv of changing light bulbs.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                I’m still not seeing any inkling here of why anyone should prefer this system to something like a European universal system.

                You keep repeating that yeah, folks are going to die, but it will be different folks, like that somehow a persuasive argument.

                I’m just not getting the concept here.
                Who would benefit from this?
                Why should they?Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m just not getting the concept here.
                Who would benefit from this?
                Why should they?

                The European system comes with European GDP growth rates. The countries which do the best job at running their social system do so by having few people and lots of oil.

                Let’s use some US numbers to put this plan into perspective. Median household income is roughly $50k, Medical insurance for that median family is what… $15k? Average medical costs $5k? So call Medical Insurance + Costs of $20k (note the gov taxing it from you and giving it to you or someone else counts, as does your company withholding it from your paycheck).

                I’ve been assuming a handwave 4x in inefficiency, so the system in our alternative universe gives you basically the same medicine at a cost of $4k, so the other $16k goes in your pocket. That has serious effects on inequality, the general good, and so forth.

                Now lets assume you (in this universe) are persistently sick to the tune of $80k a year. In our alternative universe that’s $20k a year so in theory you’re no worse off (although yes, it’s going to suck if you don’t have access to that).

                Further, it’s strongly implied that taxes will be seriously less in this alternative universe, this should have good effects on growth rate and other good things so that median $50k is probably an understatement.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                I’m more confused now than before.

                What is with the handwaving? Is that like underpants gnomes?
                How do we come up with an assertion that medical costs can be cut to a quarter of what they are now?

                And even if we accept that without question, there are plenty of people who couldn’t afford even that. And many of these are people who are elderly and sick and whose spending is easily multiple times your example of 80K.

                So again, I’m not sure who is supposed to find this attractive.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                And many of these are people who are elderly and sick and whose spending is easily multiple times your example of 80K.

                And these are the same people who, if we actually go to UMC, will receive “no” votes by death panels.

                The alternative to an efficient system is NOT that everyone is covered for everything, it’s that we do a better job of obfuscating how that choice is made while also making HC expensive for everyone.

                So again, I’m not sure who is supposed to find this attractive.

                People who want lots more money in their pocket? People who care about growth? People who currently have to choose between paying for HC and paying for HC insurance? People who need epi-pens?

                There’s a lot of suffering that comes with a system as inefficient as ours. We just lack the obvious signs of people starving in the streets that we’d have if this were food. Not knowing who is suffering let’s us pretend there’s none, but all that economic damage has real world consequences even if we don’t know the details.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                Which universal system currently is letting sick elderly people die? I’m not aware of any.

                Who are the people currently suffering?

                The only ones I can think of are people who aren’t covered and covering more people was the whole point of the ACA.

                I trying, and failing, to see how going towards a more market based system would decrease suffering.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Who are the people currently suffering?

                Anyone who is paying too much for medical services or insurance.

                Think about how painful it’d be to take a thousand dollars, or even ten thousand dollars, and just set it on fire. That’s basically what we’re having almost everyone do.

                That’s a *lot* of harm. It’s lost opportunities and other economic benefits, and these are big numbers so it’s a big deal. That people aren’t aware of how much harm they’re suffering doesn’t eliminate its existence.

                Which universal system currently is letting sick elderly people die?

                All of them (everyone dies).

                As I’ve pointed out, other systems are better at hiding painful realities, but they can’t function if they don’t have some way to prevent routinely spending millions of dollars on dying elderly to give them a few more weeks of life.

                Just because a treatment is available doesn’t obligate society to pay for it.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Well yes, things would be better if our health care costs were lower, as they are in every country that has implemented universal health care. And yes, every system everywhere has to at some point make painful decisions about resource allocation and accept that we are mortal. So where is your argument against UHC hiding in here? You keep asserting that if we sprinkle some free market juice on our current system we’ll suddenly get costs comparable to, errrr, the various European countries with UHC, but I’m still not seeing what evidence you have to support that.Report

              • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Don Zeko
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                says:

                You must have faith, comrade. Faith in the free market, and it shall deliver it’s glory unto you.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                Ah… no. UHC has never “lowered costs”, which is what we need. As part of the gov taking over HC and putting into place UHC they’ve also put into place things which prevent HC growth.

                If we went totally into UHC right now we’d have to pay a lot to get UHC (which is why our politicians have flinched away from doing it) and then long term we’d get lower growth in health care. But we’re past the point where reducing the rate of growth can help a whole lot, now we actually need to lower costs. That’s going to be really painful, it means jobs will be lost and so forth.

                Actual reductions in cost mean doing to our HC system what the market did to the Steel Manufacturers and other industries. The market has a long history of being brutal on entire industries, the government really doesn’t.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                UHC has never “lowered costs”,

                No, by definition. Leaving out the sick and infirm will make the bottom line look a lot better. See, for example, US health insurance practices until recently.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                Well you say that, but we actually spend more per capita than many countries with UHC and don’t get universal coverage for that money.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                Ahh. I was confused for a minute there.

                Yes, we don’t have UHC (well….) and our costs are higher than many UHC countries with better healthcare provision. (Point 1)

                What I took Dark to be saying is that a total cost C at T1 without UHC will increase at T2 by the addition of the previously uninsured. Which is, I think correct. (Point 2)

                Point 1 and point 2 aren’t inconsistent, seems to me. Part of UHC (singlepayer version) is that gummint leverages down prices and so on, thereby reducing costs. But merely adding high risk people onto the rolls without any other changes increases costs.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                Dark Matter: UHC has never “lowered costs”,

                No, by definition. Leaving out the sick and infirm will make the bottom line look a lot better. See, for example, US health insurance practices until recently.

                There are dozens of countries which have put into place UHC. Please show me a graph detailing how their costs actually went down when they did so. Not how their costs are different from someone else, how their costs *actually* *went* *down*.Report

              • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                How are you defining costs? Total costs? Costs per unit care? Costs per person? The metric matters enormously.

                We could reduce our total costs by providing super gold plated care healthcare to only one randomly chosen lucky American and ignoring everybody else. Or we could raise them by instituting universal overage.

                Likewise, we could ask if computer costs are down since the 1950s. No, they’re a much larger percentage of our economy now. We each spend far more on a per capita basis as well. But we’re not purchasing the same thing. If you define computer costs as the cost per 32-bit integer calculation or megabyte of RAM, they’ve gone down enormously. But you have to come up with a sensible metric.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Troublesome Frog
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                says:

                Total Costs.

                Various people seem to be claiming that going to UHC means we’d actually be spending *less*.Report

              • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                You’re making the same mistake you made earlier though–conflating comparisons across time with comparisons across borders. Two things can simultaneously be true:

                1) Countries that adopt UHC have higher total costs now than they did in the past.
                2) If we copy one of models, we will have lower total costs than we are currently spending.

                The fact that UHC health care countries spend more in total than they did in the past doesn’t imply that we’d have higher costs if we emulated them at all.

                Regarding the total costs question: Has the US gone completely off the rails because our total costs for cell phones and wireless services have gone up dramatically over the past 30 years? If not, it’s probably good to ask what you’re trying to figure out using that metric.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Troublesome Frog
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                says:

                If we copy one of models, we will have lower total costs than we are currently spending.

                So you’re claiming we’ll actually get lower total costs.

                Countries that adopt UHC have higher total costs now than they did in the past.

                Who cares about now? We have dozens of examples, what did total costs look like 5 years after they went with UHC?

                If I recall correctly, I looked at a graph of this years ago and the answer was “up, not down”.

                doesn’t imply that we’d have higher costs if we emulated them at all.

                We’re pulling sick people into the system who don’t get care now. We’re pulling poor people into the system who don’t get care now.

                This STRONGLY suggests UHC will be a lot more expensive than what we have now.Report

              • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                So you’re claiming we’ll actually get lower total costs.

                If we did identically the same thing that other UHC countries are doing, yes. Those countries spend less of their GDP on healthcare than we do. So it shouldn’t be a stretch to say that if we do what they’re doing, we’d be spending less of our GDP on healthcare than we do. It’s actually kind of weird to think it would be some other way.

                If the question is, “Would any arbitrary form of UHC lower total costs?” then the answer is no. There are plenty of UHC designs that would raise costs enormously. Giving everybody their own MRI machine would raise costs. But doing what other countries with objectively lower costs than us do seems like it would lower costs. Why would that not be the case?

                Who cares about now? We have dozens of examples, what did total costs look like 5 years after they went with UHC?

                You’re making the same comparison mistake *again*. Your baseline is wrong. It’s producing nonsensical results. Comparing France in 1945 to France in 1950 is an increase. Comparing US 2016 to France 2016 is a decrease. We’re the US in 2016. If we became like France in 2016, the number would go down. Yes, if we were France in 1945, our costs would go up. But we’re not France in 1945.

                Going back to my cell phone example: Can you explain exactly what you’re trying to get from the total costs metric? Is it bad that we’re spending more on cell services now than 30 years ago?Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Troublesome Frog
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                says:

                But doing what other countries with objectively lower costs than us do seems like it would lower costs. Why would that not be the case?

                Because you’re not going to:
                1) Get doctors to accept half their salary
                2) Kick trial lawyers out of the system
                3) Fire whatever percentage of test lab people don’t fit the model
                4) Implement serious gun control
                5) Have serious death panels
                6) Make Americans less fat/murderous/etc, etc, etc.

                The concept of bringing in their system in total is simply nonsense. What you want to do is implement UHC to cover people who aren’t covered, and that’s it. You’ve suggested nothing for reducing costs other than pointing to other countries which have some or all of that list (and other things besides), but you’re not going to try doing those things here so that doesn’t really help.

                Comparing France in 1945 to France in 1950 is an increase.

                So you’re admitting that UHC has *never* actually reduced costs? If so, and assuming you’re not trying anything on my list above, what makes you think we’d reduce costs here?

                Can you explain exactly what you’re trying to get from the total costs metric?

                Whether or not we can pay for it. Other countries implemented it when costs were cheap and their gov spending was a much smaller percentage of the GDP than it is now.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                You’ve suggested nothing for reducing costs other than pointing to other countries which have some or all of that list

                Interestingly, none of the other, much more theoretical proposals, offer no suggestions for reducing costs either. So the question is this, Dark: if you think healthcare cost per capita GDP is absolutely outrageous and going to get worse, in particular given how shitty our overall healthcare is, then you’ve got a faith-based decision to make too. Or an ideological one, I suppose. I mean, you can stick to your guns about “free market” solutions and watch health care spending rise to 22, 25, 30% or our GDP, or you can bite the bullet and concede that the free market can’t solve this problem.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                Interestingly, none of the other, much more theoretical proposals, offer no suggestions for reducing costs either.

                Oh good grief. Make HC providers post prices and give everyone vouchers so they have a reason to compare. There’s more but the root of fixing a dysfunctional market is to fix the dysfunctional market.

                So the question is this, Dark: if you think healthcare cost per capita GDP is absolutely outrageous and going to get worse, in particular given how shitty our overall healthcare is,

                Yes.

                then you’ve got a faith-based decision to make too. Or an ideological one, I suppose. I mean, you can stick to your guns about “free market” solutions and watch health care spending rise to 22, 25, 30% or our GDP, or you can bite the bullet and concede that the free market can’t solve this problem.

                As far as I can tell we’re not *trying* anything close to the free market, and that’s one huge reason why it’s expensive.

                One epi-pen, 3rd party pays, no prices posted so no comparisons possible, supply deliberately restricted, and I’m sure there’s more.

                “Faith based” is thinking one more layer of government (on top of every layer we already have) is going to make everything work even though we’re nakedly increasing demand, handing out “free” things, and can’t describe why prices will go down other than “other countries have do things we’re not willing to”.

                I can and have described ways to make UHC work with reducing prices, but the control of prices is separate from the handing out of “free” goodies aspect that you like.Report

              • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                Get doctors to accept half their salary

                Some number of doctors will work at any given wage. Reducing doctors’ salaries will reduce the number of doctors, not eliminate doctors entirely. Producing more doctors would also reduce doctors’ salaries. Supply and demand are curves.

                Kick trial lawyers out of the system

                Why not, exactly? I mean, I’m guessing that the thought experiment health care utopia in your head has no trial lawyers in it at all. In any case, the evidence that a large chunk of our costs are driven by lawsuits is not very compelling.

                Fire whatever percentage of test lab people don’t fit the model

                I don’t know what this means.

                Implement serious gun control

                What percentage of our GDP do we spend treating gunshot wounds, realistically?

                Have serious death panels

                I really don’t get why you think that. It’s not like our current system provides unlimited payouts. Medicare and Medicaid also have plenty of hard and fast rules that let people go without care. You seem to think that Americans are uniquely unable to put limits on benefits, and as far as I can tell you’re basing that belief on absolutely nothing.

                What you want to do is implement UHC to cover people who aren’t covered, and that’s it.

                No, that’s just a thing you’re ascribing to me because it’s easy to dismiss.

                So you’re admitting that UHC has *never* actually reduced costs?

                Mary: Hey, we should sell our Suburban buy an Accord like Joe has. Joe spends less on gas than we do.
                Mike: Nonsense. When Joe sold his motorcycle and bought the Accord, he started spending more on gas!

                If so, and assuming you’re not trying anything on my list above, what makes you think we’d reduce costs here?

                Primarily the fact that while those things are contributors, they’re not really what’s driving the dysfunction of our system.

                Other countries implemented it when costs were cheap and their gov spending was a much smaller percentage of the GDP than it is now.

                This claim makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would lower costs when they implemented it have anything to do with whether it’s affordable now? If the system didn’t work, lower costs at the start would not save it decades later.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Troublesome Frog
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                says:

                Dark Matter: What you want to do is implement UHC to cover people who aren’t covered, and that’s it.

                Troublesome Frog: No, that’s just a thing you’re ascribing to me because it’s easy to dismiss.

                Then when I ask for how you’re going to control costs, you need to say something other than “UHC” (which increases demand and hands out free stuff).

                UHC is politically the easy part because handing out free stuff is popular. The really hard part is paying for it and structuring things so it doesn’t bankrupt the system.

                DM: Other countries implemented it when costs were cheap and their gov spending was a much smaller percentage of the GDP than it is now.

                TR: This claim makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would lower costs when they implemented it have anything to do with whether it’s affordable now? If the system didn’t work, lower costs at the start would not save it decades later.

                This is pretty important. It’s *much* easier to stop someone from getting something than it is to take it away, that’s *especially* true for things like jobs, salary, and life giving care.

                Say we look at other countries and decide *half* of all tests are medically worthless, so we the gov decide to make it a lot harder for doctors to schedule tests with the explicit goal of cutting the number in half. Those tests are people’s jobs, how they get their incomes, etc, and there’s going to be a lot of political protests and claims that what we have now is absolutely needed. Ditto if we try to prevent anyone over the age of 90 from being treated for certain types of cancer when we know that these treatments work. Ditto if we try to cut doctor’s salaries in half (or even attempt to double the number of doctors).

                On the other hand preventing the creation or import of a band new (seriously expensive) drug or technique is much easier because the people who are going to die without it don’t know that there’s an (expensive) alternative.

                When other countries introduced UMC, it increased the cost of the system, but because the gov was paying for it the gov put huge pressure on various parts of the system to lower it’s growth. At the time, per person costs were very cheap because all these fancy cures hadn’t been invented yet and we weren’t spending vast percentages of the GDP on medical care.

                Because these systems were on budgets, they needed to find ways to cut costs. However our absurd costs are already baked into the system. Lowering our GDP expenditures on medicine implies people die and lose their jobs. That’s going to be politically unpopular.

                Implementing UMC without changing anything is just applying our absurd costs to sick people we used to let die. I don’t see how we do that without breaking the budget, and thus far you’ve been unwilling or unable to say where the cost savings come from, and much more importantly, how those cost savings can work politically.

                The low hanging fruit (economically) is not paying for expensive treatments for the old and sick. Half your lifetime medical costs are in the last year(ish) of your life. However you seem to be wanting UMC for the purpose of *not* doing things like that.Report

              • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                Then when I ask for how you’re going to control costs, you need to say something other than “UHC” (which increases demand and hands out free stuff).

                I’ve been more specific than that. I’ve been referring to any of the systems that every other developed country has set up without the problems your thought experiments indicate will happen. We could try, for example, a single payer system where the government acts as a single giant insurance company, sets reimbursement rates, makes payments, and decides which procedures are covered. Other countries do this. In fact, we do this for the most expensive population via Medicare already.

                There are plenty of other models that result in universal coverage and all of them have objectively worked out to be cheaper than ours. Pick one that exists in reality, not one you’re concocting in a thought experiment, because those clearly don’t work as well as the real ones.

                You seem to think that I’m saying that making it universal results in savings. It’s the other way around. Adopting a better system saves enough money to make it universal.

                Lowering our GDP expenditures on medicine implies people die and lose their jobs. That’s going to be politically unpopular.

                So your complaint is not that it doesn’t work economically, but that it won’t work politically. That’s very likely to be at least partially true. Our awful system has shown remarkable political resilience against any attempt to reform it. But your objection holds for any reform that will reduce costs. Any cost reduction anywhere will cost somebody some profit. If we follow your reasoning to its conclusion, we can’t change anything and we’re stuck paying too much for too little forever. We’ll never get anything other than what we have now.

                This feels like one of those cases where my idea needs to meet political feasibility tests but yours doesn’t, even though it’s just as politically infeasible (if not more).

                I don’t see how we do that without breaking the budget, and thus far you’ve been unwilling or unable to say where the cost savings come from, and much more importantly, how those cost savings can work politically.

                Wrapped up in your economic arguments is the assumption that we’re currently getting as much as we possibly can for our money and that it is not possible to get the services for less–that there’s no excess billing or wasted administrative overhead. That if we take the $25 hospital aspirin and say, “We’re only paying $15 for that” that there will be a marked drop in aspirin delivery and we’ll all suffer.

                Results elsewhere indicate that it does not. Between the $25 coming out of your wallet and the pennies the aspirin actually cost, that money is going into excess returns that can be clamped down on. The cash that’s being extracted is far in excess of what it cost to provide the services. We know this because the same services are provided elsewhere for less.

                Basically, a big chunk of the savings would come from the same place the savings would come from in an ideal free market solution: Greater efficiency. Our system is currently maximally inefficient.

                Half your lifetime medical costs are in the last year(ish) of your life.

                I’ve mentioned this before, but we already have universal healthcare for the elderly. It’s Medicare. This isn’t even a thought experiment in our own country.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Troublesome Frog
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                says:

                Good comment. (I wish I could’ve written it 🙂Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Troublesome Frog
                Ignored
                says:

                You seem to think that I’m saying that making it universal results in savings. It’s the other way around. Adopting a better system saves enough money to make it universal.

                Somehow I doubt there’s *any* history of this kind of thing being put into place without large tax increases, that’s a problem right there considering how many countries have done this.

                The focus here seriously seems to be on universal with the “save money” aspect being either an afterthought or the calm assurance of ideology. So are you confident enough to do it in two stages? One to save money and two to make it universal?

                So your complaint is not that it doesn’t work economically, but that it won’t work politically.

                Oh, I don’t think it works economically with where we’re at, and I also don’t think it can work politically either (and you can add culturally to that list). The Dems had a super majority and Obamacare was as far to the left as they could bring themselves to go.

                But your objection holds for any reform that will reduce costs. Any cost reduction anywhere will cost somebody some profit.

                Markets have done this before, many times. Coal is currently coming under the ax, the Steel workers were brutalized.

                That’s in addition to problem that I don’t think *anyone* have any clue, at a detail level, what needs to happen. Do we have too many specialist doctors? Not enough?

                This feels like one of those cases where my idea needs to meet political feasibility tests but yours doesn’t, even though it’s just as politically infeasible (if not more).

                We already have vouchers around, is it really politically infeasible to force providers to publish prices?

                Wrapped up in your economic arguments is the assumption that we’re currently getting as much as we possibly can for our money and that it is not possible to get the services for less–that there’s no excess billing or wasted administrative overhead.

                Hardly. But the people you claim will step in and make $25 dollar aspirin cost only $15 are the same people who have given us a single source for an epi-pen (in the name of helping us) and allowed that $25 dollar aspirin to begin with.

                Given that we’re already dealing with regulators who have been captured by hospitals (etc), and given that providers understand how to do this, why should I expect the same group of regulators will do better in the future than an impersonal market?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                You can hang your hat on that, but evidence shows that manymany singlepayer systems provide better healthcare at lower costs than the US. I think that’s the relevant data point, myself.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                Great. So if you’re claiming that total costs are actually going to go *down*, then please provide justification for that, ideally examples from other countries experiences. Personally I keep remembering how our politicians keep flinching away from how much UHC will cost.

                You’re increasing demand, probably by a lot, how exactly are you going to increase supply or otherwise lower costs?

                And btw I can think of actual real-world answers for this.
                1) Really strict and broad use of death panels would do it (half your lifetime use of HC is in the last year or two of life)
                2) Really strict rationing would also do it (although we’d instantly have queues and probably a two tier system).

                But if your answer is something like “the government will do it” then you’re basically claiming magic based on an ignorance of economics.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                Great. So if you’re claiming that total costs are actually going to go *down*, then please provide justification for that, ideally examples from other countries experiences.

                The justification is this: pick your model, do what they do, cost goes down. It’s not like there isn’t a solid evidence base to work from Dark.

                Now, if you’re expressing skepticism about such a system actually working in the good ole USofA, then I agree with you. But it isn’t because the models don’t work. It’s becuase of people like you who demand evidence that can’t be provided for analytical skepticism which begs the question.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                The justification is this: pick your model, do what they do, cost goes down. It’s not like there isn’t a solid evidence base to work from Dark.

                Great, so if “doing what they do” means we have to be…
                1) Less murderous
                2) Less fat
                3) Not have pockets of people who are poorly educated
                4) Have a different racial make up.
                5) Have a unified culture which frowns on abusing the government’s generosity

                How exactly do you think we’re going do that?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                I think we’re making progress here Dark. Now you’re talking about the cultural problems of instituting something like an NHS singlepayer system.

                I agree, that’s a tricky one. But it’s a different complaint than the criticizing the mechanisms by which single payer works. The SP model works in a whole slew of countries. If it can’t work here, it’s not because the model doesn’t work, it’s because our culture – including people like yourself, if you don’t mind my saying so – and our politics aren’t amenable to it.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Of course all of the market-based reforms that might have a shot in hell of reducing per-unit costs have a similar cultural problem.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, when it comes to political economy, you gotchyer politics and you got yer economy. Sometimes it’s important to distinguish which is which.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Oh, definitely. But if the reason we can’t be France is that it’s politically impossible; that seems no more politically impossible than destroying employer-based coverage, deregulating the insurance market, and letting ER’s turn away indigent patients.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                Of course all of the market-based reforms that might have a shot in hell of reducing per-unit costs have a similar cultural problem.

                Actually no. We already have health savings vouchers, there’s no cultural reason why hospitals (etc) can’t be forced to publish their prices.

                The nice thing about (some) market based reforms is it mostly wouldn’t be obvious who is going to be forced out of business in 10 years, nor who is over priced for what they actually do.Report

              • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                I would support any measures to make our pricing system more transparent. The disconnect between prices and customers is a primary driver of our cost problems.

                If you hired an evil economist and said, “Design a system that produced the worst possible cost outcomes but was still politically difficult to get rid of,” only the cleverest of economists would succeed as well as we have by accident.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Troublesome Frog
                Ignored
                says:

                I remember once we might have needed to work with a specialist for Mayo who didn’t accept our insurance. I asked them to give an estimate of what an office visit would cost.
                “We can’t do that. We have no idea what the doctor would need to do.”
                “Can you give a likely range?”
                “No.”
                “Can you tell me if it’s more likely to be $400 or $4000?”
                “No!”
                “Can you give me a list of procedures you perform and what you charge?”
                “This isn’t a restaraunt, sir! We don’t know what the doctor will need to do so we can’t say what it will cost. It just doesn’t work that way!”

                We chose not to work with them. And not just because she saw fit to scream at a potential patient/customer. We would not put ourselves in position to have our son’s medical needs exploited via a fucked up system. We found a highly regarded doc who accepted our insurance and payed a minimal copay for a visit and were done.

                That doesn’t seem like a well designed system. “You can go here and pay God knows what or you can go there and know you’ll pay $10.”Report

              • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                From recent experience, I can promise you the costs for a CT scan can vary at least 300% between providers on the same plan.

                That’s effed up.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Troublesome Frog
                Ignored
                says:

                If you hired an evil economist and said, “Design a system that produced the worst possible cost outcomes but was still politically difficult to get rid of,” only the cleverest of economists would succeed as well as we have by accident.

                I don’t think they could, actually. No one individual, or even a team, could devise a system so entirely dysfunctional wrt the purported goals while (as you say) making it political difficult to change. It’s an example of spontaneous order which cuts entirely (by almost every objective measure) the other way.

                Same with the US tax code for that matter. No one single person could’ve designed that. Not even an evil all-powerful God.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Think about how painful it’d be to take a thousand dollars, or even ten thousand dollars, and just set it on fire. That’s basically what we’re having almost everyone do.

                My God, thats painful. The horror!

                But you know what might be just a tiny bit more painful than spending money?

                Dying of an illness without treatment, I’m guessing. Which was the reality for a lot of people before the ACA.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Dying of an illness without treatment, I’m guessing. Which was the reality for a lot of people before the ACA.

                And still is now. And will be in the future. I know people society could save (i.e. prolong the life of) if we were spend without limits.

                The problem is, in a world with limited resources, would society as a whole would be poorer for it?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Just because a treatment is available doesn’t obligate society to pay for it.

                Does the pool of insurees whose premiums cover specific individual costs constitute “society paying for it”? Cuz that’s how insurance works.

                If you don’t want people dying in the streets, and you don’t want society paying for their care, then you’re at an impasse.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                By saying that coverage needs to be extended to any given malady, we are, effectively, creating demand.

                If we are not creating supply at the same time, we’re going to deal with the fact that the price is going up. Or shortages.

                To switch to the “triage” framework, there isn’t a way to keep adding people to the triage room and put them all in the “take of of this now” pool. Not without creating more doctors/nurses/rooms in which nursing assistants take temperatures and blood pressure.

                And that’s without getting into the best way to make the US a lot more like England.

                Pre-Brexit England, I mean.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I think your hyperfocus on meta analysis has reduced you to a state of paralysis, Jaybird.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                It’s more that the stuff we need to do to fix the problem is very, very difficult and it will be easier to create twice as many new doctors than it will be to change the culture.

                And let me say that I say that statement *KNOWING* how difficult it will be to create twice as many new doctors.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I’ve been thinking about this all day (yay, maintenance!).

                In practice, the difference between a thing (an actual thing) and a social construct is a nuclear war.

                If a thing is a thing, an actual thing, it would still exist after a nuclear war. So a guy with medical expertise on how to set a bone? Still just as useful after a nuclear war as before.

                A letter from the government promising that if the holder of the letter takes it to an approved HMO that the second hundred dollars of any treatment for gout will be paid for? Not useful after a nuclear war except for as paper.

                I’m in a place where I see that there are a number of things getting in the way of actual health care. Some of them are preventing actual health care (like the FDA) and some of them are having cash money poured into them rather than into actual health care (to some extent, a lot of insurance falls under here).

                We suffer from too many social constructs related to health care and from not enough actual health care.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m not sure why what-exists-after-globalthermonuclearwar is an interesting metric to get a grip on the healthcare debate, personally. What you’re effecively saying is that after meltdown there won’t be any Medicare, and because of that we should … what, exactly, I’m confused … scrap it right now?

                Will we have insurance companies after the bombs detonate? Will they still pay claims? If not, then we gotta scrap them too, right?, since they’re a social construct and all?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                It’s not to help get a grip on the healthcare debate, it’s a rule of thumb to help measure whether what you’re calling for is an actual thing or a social construct.

                Will what you’re calling for be useful? Like, for real useful no matter what?

                Or is what you’re calling for only useful in our very specific legal and cultural context?

                If the answer is “I don’t know which it would be”, then use the nuclear war test.

                If the thing makes no sense in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, then it’s not something that would help us at this point in our development either.

                If, however, you find yourself saying “man, I sure as heck would want one of those around!” if you were talking about living 200 miles east of The Glow, then it’s something that is likely to help us too.

                More adminstrators, lawyers, and coverage?
                Not going to help.

                UNLESS.

                Unless our health care problem is also not a real and actual thing but a social construct as well.

                If it’s the latter, yeah. Maybe what we need is an even bigger social construct.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Can’t speak for you, obvs., but it seems that availability of medical care to treat high-temperature burns, broken limbs and bleeding would be really useful in our imagined post-apocalyptic world.

                Or am I still not playing the game right?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Seems to me that you’re playing it perfectly.

                Is whatever you’re calling for something as real as medical care that can treat burns, set bones, staunch bleeding?

                A set of skills, a set of unguents/tonics/ointments, a set of splints, a set of bandages?

                All of which are medical care, without quotes.

                Is what you are calling for medical care, without quotes? If so, it seems to me that you would be calling for something that would help address the problem and get us on the proper track to having less of a health care problem.

                I mean, heck, you can start playing games like saying “But an MRI machine requires power! Would we have power after a nuclear war?”

                We can then get into stuff like engineering problems like backup power generators and redundant power and how a guy capable of running a generator would be something that would be very useful indeed after a war and, as such, an MRI running on this guy’s power would be useful, as would be the ability to run an MRI and read its results properly.

                So, hey, calls for more people capable of running backup power generators (STEM! Or TE!, anyway) would be something that would be useful in this context, assuming that one of the things we’re dealing with is a power crisis.

                Given that our medical crisis, for all its flaws, is more or less able to keep the lights on, I’d say that an engineer who is capable of running backup power is not something that we need more of *RIGHT NOW*, but it would address the “MRIs need power!” criticism of the thought experiment.

                Because, I imagine, an MRI machine and someone who knew how to use it and read the results would be useful after an apocalypse… and, as such, qualifies as something actual and real rather than merely something that is a social construct.

                Now a solution that focuses on the provision of insurance following an incident that does not involve pre-existing conditions according to sub-clause 13b (see attached), strikes me as being a lot more like a “social construct” and “health care coverage” (in quotes) rather than actual and for real health care (without quotes).

                It seems to me that the creation of newer and more social constructs is, effectively, the creation of demand.

                While the creation of actual and for real health care is the creation of supply.

                And if we are having a price problem (and, I submit to you, one of the problems we’re having is a price problem), then we need to focus more on the creation of the supply of health care (like, as you say, the ability to treat burns, broken limbs, and bleeding) than on the creation of social constructs to help us manage and categorize.Report

              • Avatar Francis in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I find this discussion delightfully surreal. Brent the survivalist living in a suitably remote place is going to move a multi-ton piece of machinery to his village, along with the replacement parts necessary to keep it running. All in a post-apocalyptic environment where effective supply lines have been shrunk from the whole globe down to a few hundred miles (depending on how vicious the bandits are that year).

                The global supply chains and international educational systems that support modern medicine are most definitely social constructs. And the CEOs whose companies deliver modern pharmaceuticals are the exact same people who lobby Congress for patent protection for their unique molecules.

                So, yes, all of modern medicine is a social construct. Without those social constructs, medicine would look a lot like medicine circa 1900.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                This is epic. Not good but epic in it’s own very special way.

                “If the thing makes no sense in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, then it’s not something that would help us at this point in our development either.”

                I’m not sure comparing us to a P-AW is all that apt a comparison. But i’m guessing good analogies are just social constructs.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                I’ll play.
                Would there be a system of property boundaries and rights in a post apocalyptic world?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                To be honest, I think the post-apocalyptic thought experiment isn’t anything new, it’s just an attempt to give a contemporary feel to an old song: Hobbesian state-of-nature deja vu all over again.

                So, no: there would be no property rights in the imagined scenario.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                But surely, in a post apocalyptic Hobbesian landscape, I can still buy my Lipitor on the free market using my Bitcoins!Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Bitcoin is surging! All the smart post-apocalyptic (pre-Trump? can those two things be distinguished?) money is on Bitcoin!Report

              • Avatar Kolohe in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Bottlecaps, not bitcoins.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Kolohe
                Ignored
                says:

                Good point. In the imagined scenario, globalthermonculeardestruction is something that happens to other people. Home brew is forever.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Let’s unpack:

                You find a cache of Lipitor in a box. Four full bottles!
                Are these worth anything?

                You find a memory stick with 17 whole bitcoin on it.
                Is this worth anything?

                As far as I can tell, Lipitor is something that is actually real and good.

                Bitcoin? Well, it’s a medium of exchange. Closer to “social construct” than not. Likely to be worthless.

                Well, the memory stick might be worth something.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                #stateofnature

                Eg: “Suppose someone in our postapocalyptic world finds a box of Lipitor. That’s a real thing, with value. What prevents another person from killing the finder in order to take that thing of value? Nothing. Nothing at all. Hence, constraints on murder are a social construct.”

                And they are!!!Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Yes. Indeed.

                So, to use these two examples, something that creates more things like Lipitor would help us with our current crisis and something that passes more laws would *NOT* help us in our current crisis.

                If we could switch from Lipitor to Epipens for a moment, I’d point to the FDA’s approving only one Epipen to Europe’s ability to have approved eight different kinds of Epipen.

                Epipens are good. They’re health care!
                Social constructs preventing Epipens from being sold in the US to the point where the sole approved distributor can jack up prices? They’re making things worse.

                Is this one of those things where you’re trying to demonstrate how silly this metric is but I’m seeing how apt it is and we’re talking past each other?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Social constructs preventing Epipens from being sold in the US to the point where the sole approved distributor can jack up prices? They’re making things worse.

                The things the prevent generic epipens from being sold (say) over the counter isn’t “social constructs” but rather “leverage to ensure copyright protections”.

                Copyright protections may be (and in fact are) a social construct, but how they get leveraged, enforced, protected, etc, isn’t. Seems to me anyway (ie., it’s more of an “individual” “power” based construct, which at root are not constructs whatsoever).

                But I get your point. (I’m just pretty sure that the terms “social constructs” and “individual constructs” – or even etc! – don’t elucidate the phenomenon we really want to talk about. I don’t know what to call it….)Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Hey, I’m just using it as a rule of thumb to help with figuring out how to distinguish between whether a thing is “supply” or “demand”.

                If it’s something that does not require context to be worth something as health care, it’s supply.

                If it requires a context to be worth something, it’s demand.

                And if we have a price problem then what we have is a situation where the rate of demand is growing faster than the rate of supply.

                And we do have a price problem.

                My solution to the price problem is to start churning out as much supply as is possible to do so. The worst case scenario for churning out supply is that, no matter what, we have something that is worth something even without context.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                My solution to the price problem is to start churning out as much supply as is possible to do so.

                I’m not sure that will reduce cost, to be honest. Here’s an example:

                Our community hospital is experiencing Real Pain (!!) because women are increasingly not opting to have conventional hospital births. Their numbers are way down, and that’s causing problems for the budget and the share holders.

                Anyway, to remedy the problem they’ve created a Midwife section of care, where specially CNMs provide global care and deliver with MD backup, if necessary.

                Fair enough. Nice market-based decision providing women with a nice market-based option. Problem is, their bill rate to carriers is exactly the same as before. So they make more money by paying CNMs their rate, which is cheaper than an OBGYN MD rate, but still bill the same.

                There is no market mechanism constituting a check on this stuff. Flood the market with MDs and the negotiated rate won’t change, the bill rates won’t change, the total cost won’t change.*

                It’s a fucked up system dude.

                *OK, that may be overstating things a bit. But I’m pretty sure that cost won’t deviate more than a few percentage points.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                btw, the “Real Pain” comment is based on Real Evidence: the CEO of the hospital had a meeting with my wife to lament how bad their numbers are and ask her what they could do to bring them back up. Which is weird (since she’s effectively the competition…) (Reminds me of Hillary, for some reason…)

                Add: and if you knew how much a hospital charges for a vaginal birth you’d understand why it’s such a big deal…Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Well… that strikes me as one hell of a demand spike that appears out of nowhere that, really, can’t be accounted for.

                If people want GMO-free, artisinal, small-batch health care and demand they be provided with such…

                I don’t know how to possibly deal with that.

                Well, the two tier thing, I guess. Everybody has X years ago available for cheap. If you want the latest, greatest, bleeding edgest stuff, you get to pay for it.

                But that means that some people will get better health care than other people have available to them which is, apparently, monstrous.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                If people want GMO-free, artisinal, small-batch health care and demand they be provided with such…

                I don’t know how to possibly deal with that.

                Sure you do: let the market work as intended. Women get to choose a Birth Center for their maternity care and delivery and the “market” determines the price of that covered service.

                Problem is, that service isn’t “covered” by carriers for lots of women, and when it is the prices aren’t (as usual in the insurance world) determined by the market (since there is no market).

                And not to bash on insurance companies too much here, it makes sense that the “market” doesn’t determine their costs (or alternatively what we’d call “price) since they can only make projections on profitability with a high level of certainty that price (what they call “cost) is stable and predictable.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Jaybird:
                Well, the two tier thing, I guess. Everybody has X years ago available for cheap. If you want the latest, greatest, bleeding edgest stuff, you get to pay for it.

                In a sense, at least, this is the case with very many UHC systems and in the system set up by the ACA: you get a level of insurance coverage provided more or less universally, but people are perfectly able to pay for supplemental coverage on top of that if they want fancier treatments, lower deductibles, etc. It’s not monstrous; it’s the default liberal position.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                Not exactly. It’s more that I think that we’ve got a price problem and that the preferred solution of the elites is to create ways to manage the price problem but the elites tend to manage the price problem in ways that subtly increase demand without increasing supply and, thus, make the problem worse.

                Sure, we can point to a group of people who are better off than they would have been otherwise, meanwhile there is another group of people who are worse off than they would have been otherwise and without a useful measuring stick of how to measure what, we’re just stuck either saying “the stuff I care about is more important than the stuff you care about!”

                If you want to hammer out a measuring stick that makes sense to you, we can discuss it.

                Without that measuring stick, though, I’m stuck looking at the price signal and how price is a function of the rate of growth of supply and the rate of growth of demand and if we seem to be in a situation where we have problems with the price going up and up and up and long lines and shortages and whatnot, I’d say that what would best address this is “more supply” and not “more demand” and if you’re having trouble figuring out whether an instance of a given thing is supply or demand, then use the nuclear war test.

                A pair of crutches? Supply.
                A letter explaining that the following treatments have the following deductables? Demand.

                Easy-peasy.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Oh its the “elites” talking about it. Got it. Not people, but those dastardly “elites” who are proposing all these bad solution that look like all the successful plans used in other places. You are back to your Econ 101 talk with the high falutin stuff like “price signals” and that guff. Sounds nice and elite but i don’t see how it even starts to talk about all the actual real life examples we have of how to cover everybody well.

                You want a metric; are we covering 100%. If not explain to the people who don’t get HC why that is just. Or better yet, assume you don’t get HC since you don’t have that money signal that brings HC and tell me why that is fine.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                The elites put together Obamacare. The elites wrote the law. The elites voted on it. The elites signed it.

                You want a metric; are we covering 100%. If not explain to the people who don’t get HC why that is just. Or better yet, assume you don’t get HC since you don’t have that money signal that brings HC and tell me why that is fine.

                Just?
                Fine?

                We’ve gone from talking about fixing the problem to the way things ought to be in a world that is morally proper and properly moral.

                Yeah, I’m going to need you to do more than make accusations of immorality against those who disagree with your efforts to, ahem, immanatize the eschaton.

                An appeal to the way the world ought to be is the ultimate social construct.Report

              • Avatar Francis in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Now you’re just being silly. Obamacare was a negotiated solution among a broad range of interests, many of whom disagreed with each other passionately. The exact same groups are all now in DC, starting to lobby the new administration and Congress.

                Grouping all these interests into a collective “elite” conceals far more than it informs.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Francis
                Ignored
                says:

                Then I would like to officially withdraw the term.

                Please change

                Not exactly. It’s more that I think that we’ve got a price problem and that the preferred solution of the elites is to create ways to manage the price problem but the elites tend to manage the price problem in ways that subtly increase demand without increasing supply and, thus, make the problem worse.

                To

                Not exactly. It’s more that I think that we’ve got a price problem and that the preferred solution of the people in charge of dealing with this stuff on our behalf is to create ways to manage the price problem but the people in charge of dealing with this stuff on our behalf tend to manage the price problem in ways that subtly increase demand without increasing supply and, thus, make the problem worse.

                There.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                we’ve got a price problem and that the preferred solution of the elites is to create ways to manage the price problem but the elites tend to manage the price problem in ways that subtly increase demand without increasing supply and, thus, make the problem worse.

                Think about the world the elites live in. Money isn’t an issue for them or *anyone* they talk to. Healthcare isn’t an issue because they’re always at the head of the line.

                So we see solution after solution which expands access (at the expense of price signals) and/or shields people from price.

                without a useful measuring stick of how to measure what, we’re just stuck either saying “the stuff I care about is more important than the stuff you care about!”

                And the useful measuring stick is normally “price”, and the way to react or evaluate that is through a market.Report

              • Avatar J_A in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                @jaybird

                Pre-Brexit England, I mean.

                I have a red bus to sell to you. One that says “Vote Brexit and send 350 million (pounds, mind you) per week to the NHS.” (*)

                Whatever else Brexiters might have wanted (mostly never to see again another Polish plumber), Brexiters wanted their to protect their NHS.

                (*) of course, like many other things the Brexit Campaign said, this too, was a lie, which Boris Johnson sort or recognized when he said that the bus he was riding on might have said that, but he, personally, actually never did.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to J_A
                Ignored
                says:

                So the Faragers (Faragians?) wanted to keep their good old socialized medicine?

                There’s a leveragable opportunity here for Democrats, I think.

                I might have a way to save Obamacare…Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Personally, I’m not at all convinced that the GOP is going to repeal the ACA. I mean, they’ll go thru the motions and have a formal vote and all (make their base happyhappy!) but I’m dubious that they will change the basic structure sufficiently to call it anything other than repeal in name only.

                Additionally, Trump appears to be at cross purposes with a bunch of anti-ACA hardliners views of what happens going forward.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                One of the main things I see from over here is the Democrats giddily laughing that Donald Trump is going to make Americans pay for the wall he’s going to build.

                Without, you know, noticing that we’ve stopped discussing that building the wall is *BAD*.

                Instead it’s just “MEXICO ISN’T GOING TO PAY FOR THE WALL!!!! WE ARE!!!!! IN YOUR FACE!!!!!!”

                You know the thing where people love everything about every constituent part of the Affordable Care Act but hate Obamacare?

                Tweak it here, tweak it there, call Obamacare revoked to be replaced with Trumpcare (now with improved Medicare upgrades for states who want Trumpcare Medicare Upgrades), thus dismantling Obama’s towering achievement to be replaced by something damn near identical with a great big gilded TRUMP on the front… well, would that be a towering victory for America or would that be a pyrrhic victory that ought to be fought against?Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                He’s not going to build The Wall, and Mexico’s not going to pay a cent for whatever stupid, useless thing he might build.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                After reading your comment I saw this article.

                I do not know whether it is a point that makes me want to disagree with your conclusion or agree with it wholeheartedly.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                The two situations aren’t analogous, seems to me. Renaming Obamacare “Trumpcare” is good (or not) for America precisely to the extent that Obamacare is good for America.

                Building a Wall is a new horizon, going where no man (since Stalin) has gone before. I’m not sure what to think about it except that there ain’t no way in hell the Mexicans are going to pay for it!Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                It’s not that the situations are analogous, it’s the the opposition is analogous.

                If the focus of the opposition is to prevent a perceived win, then pointing out that Trump built the wall but he LIED because he said that Mexico would pay for it and they didn’t!, then that’s one thing.

                If the focus of the opposition is opposed to the wall itself, then Trump building the wall is a Trump win in its own right.

                Maybe focusing on how the US paid for it instead of Mexico allows both sides to win.

                Renaming Obamacare “Trumpcare” is good (or not) for America precisely to the extent that Obamacare is good for America.

                I agree with this 100%.

                That said, there are a non-zero number of people who would see turning Trumpbamacare from an Obaman achievement to a Trumpian deal as a dealbreaker in its own right. This is somewhat relevant insofar as a very important number of these non-zero people are in places where they could prevent the transubstantiation of Obamacare into Trumpcare.

                Which goes back to what is the goal of the opposition. To prevent the referent of “Obamacare” from going away or is it to keep “Obamacare”?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Without, you know, noticing that we’ve stopped discussing that building the wall is *BAD*.

                Is it *BAD*?

                I’m not sure that it is. Stupid, yes. Pie-eyed, for sure. But bad? Idon’t know. (It’s not like constructing false pretenses to invade a soveriegn nation…)

                I mean, I agree that the envirnomental damage alone mitigates against building the damn thing, but apart from that and the wasted cost it really isn’t going to work and at best will be something future historians and tourists write about and visit to get a first hand glimpse of Trump’s Folly.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Is it *BAD*?

                Did you invoke Stalin in a non-judgmental effort to demonstrate how, with sufficient will, anything is possible?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                No. I just can’t recall anyone else building a wall more recently than HIM.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Of course they do.
                And yes there is an opportunity for Dems because a large number of people voted Trump on the condition he preserve Medicare.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                If you don’t want people dying in the streets, and you don’t want society paying for their care, then you’re at an impasse.

                Again, countries which have UHC *do* *not* have blank checks for every single one of their citizens. They let people die. By the standards of your rhetoric, they let people die in the streets because of lack of care. They’re just less honest about it than what I’m suggesting.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                There have been exposes documenting that US hospitals literally dump indigent patients onto the street, sometimes in their hospital gowns, dragging IV tubes behind them.

                So when you say that European nations ” let people die”, is that a metaphorical statement, or a literal one like the US example?

                I actually curious to know.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                So when you say that European nations ” let people die”, is that a metaphorical statement, or a literal one like the US example?

                I’m saying that there are seriously expensive treatments, which could save lives, that they don’t fund.

                And because they (sanely) refuse to pay for these, people die. Of course the death rate remains 100% everywhere so paying for them would do nothing but break the budget.

                An interesting example is Abdelbaset al-Megrahi (bomber of Pan Am Flight 103). He was released from a British Prison on “compassionate” grounds, he was dying from cancer and had less than three months to live. Then he went back to Libya, and lived for years apparently with a different level of cancer treatments than he would have gotten in England.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                So your complaint against European systems is what, then?
                They ration care, which you appear to approve of, except they don’t ration by price?
                Which gets back to original question of why price rationing is better than triage rationing.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                So your complaint against European systems is what, then?

                That they don’t reduce costs, and we can’t afford what they’re doing.

                They ration care, which you appear to approve of, except they don’t ration by price?
                Which gets back to original question of why price rationing is better than triage rationing.

                I don’t trust “triage rationing” to actually reduce the costs of the system (as opposed to reduce the growth of costs). To the best of my knowledge there’s no examples of it working this way.

                We can’t afford what we’re doing now so the issue is whether we go for more government or more markets for reducing costs. Markets actually *are* compatible with “helping the poor” (food stamps), but we have to lose this false idea that we’re always going to help everyone.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Maybe I missed it in all the conversation, but I still don’t see why we can’t afford a European system.
                I mean it’s not like European bodies behave differently than ours, or that hospitals operate differently. An appendectomy in Berlin is performed pretty much like in Boston.

                Politics are diffrrent, yeah, but that’s the variable were trying to change.Report

              • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                To be fair, our obesity rates are higher than the worst case countries in Europe (although not by much in some cases). The estimates I remember setting the medical care cost of US obesity around 1% of GDP. But European obesity is nonzero, so that doesn’t account for an entire percentage point of difference. And it certainly doesn’t account for multiple percentage points.

                And of course, they’re still covering *everybody* instead of just most of everybody, so the disparity in cost per person covered is even higher.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Troublesome Frog
                Ignored
                says:

                Both from google:

                Obesity is responsible for 21% (ish) of our health costs
                Health spending accounted for 17.8 percent of the GDP.

                So Obesity Health costs are 3.7% of our GDP.Report

              • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                I was using CDC data–can you give me the reference you were using? I’m not finding any reference that goes that high–at least not a group of them that work out sensibly. The reference I can find to 21% of healthcare costs puts the dollar figure at $192B, which is not 3.7% of GDP. It’s about 1.15%. So they’re defining health care costs in a strange way that makes the calculation work out badly.

                Simpler to use per capita costs, since our system doesn’t cover everybody. Assuming $192B, that puts the obesity cost at about $600 per person. Let’s pretend obese Europeans don’t exist and we’re just going to eat that $600. World bank data on per capita spending by country:

                US: $9403
                Canada: $5292 (-$4111)
                France: $4,959 (-$4444)
                Germany: $5,411 ($3992)

                So there’s still a lot to account for here. You mentioned gun violence, which according to smartgunlaws.org (which will probably overstate the case) $8.6B per year, which accounts for another $30 of it. Even allowing for the idea that on top of those variables, those people consume 25% less healthcare than we do, they’re still beating the tar out of us. So how?Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Troublesome Frog
                Ignored
                says:

                …reference…

                As a share of the nation’s Gross Domestic Product, health spending accounted for 17.8 percent.https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=what%20percentage%20of%20the%20gdp%20is%20health%20care

                The estimated annual health care costs of obesity-related illness are a staggering $190.2 billion or nearly 21% of annual medical spending in the United States.

                https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how%20much%20does%20obesity%20cost%20the%20us

                I’m curious as to whether those links will work for you (how personal does google make it?). If you don’t get what I do I’ll supply what it seems to be pulling from. Then to get 3.7% I multiplied one by the other.

                So they’re defining health care costs in a strange way that makes the calculation work out badly.

                That’s certainly possible. When I look at it, yes, $190B seems really low.

                Even allowing for the idea that on top of those variables, those people consume 25% less healthcare than we do, they’re still beating the tar out of us. So how?

                Two problems. First consumption of healthcare has little effect on the stats that we use to evaluate healthcare when we’re at this level of things.

                We tend to rank HC systems by things like child mortality, life expectancy, and so forth. But those sorts of things are drastically affected by things like murder, obesity, SIDS and so forth which are almost entirely cultural in the first world. For example, for all the talk about how poverty creates SIDS or makes it worse, the way to prevent infants from dying is to lay them on their backs, not their fronts.

                The 2nd problem is our spending suffers, dramatically, from things already mentioned on this board, tests/visits that are not connected to cost and are impossible to compare and so forth. Bluntly these things seem like what we should expect from “command/control” and are the sorts of things which markets clean up.Report

              • Avatar Troublesome Frog in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                The links work for me, but I think you’re mixing and matching percentages in a way that compounds error. If we know the total dollar amount and what GDP is, we can get there directly by dividing the two, which factors out any errors in how they define what percentage of the economy is health care spending.. That’s how I did it.

                If you use the link that gives the “21% of annual spending” figure and try to backsolve for GDP using hte other, you get completely wrong numbers, so I suspect that their dollar figure is correct but they’re defining their denominator too narrowly and getting incorrectly large percentage. The highest estimates in absolute dollar figures I’ve seen are in the low $200B range, which still puts it at just over 1% of GDP.

                We tend to rank HC systems by things like child mortality, life expectancy, and so forth.

                Basically, you’re suggesting we have dramatically (like 1.5x to 2x) better health services than those other industrialized countries and we aren’t using metrics that capture that fact. I could definitely see us having better results depending on the metric, but without at least some sensible metric, that just seems to be guess work. Whatever the wrongness of the metric, it would imply an extraordinary difference in the level of care.

                Most of these things are knowable and measurable using number, so hand waving away such a large disparity doesn’t really do much.

                The 2nd problem is our spending suffers, dramatically, from things already mentioned on this board, tests/visits that are not connected to cost and are impossible to compare and so forth.

                Certainly, we do a lot of useless stuff that costs money. But it seems like the other countries with alternate systems either don’t do that or, even with that factored in, they still spend dramatically less per person than we do. So I’m not sure how this applies. You still seem to be speculating that we’d do those dumb things in a way that other countries don’t seem to be.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Troublesome Frog
                Ignored
                says:

                I think you’re mixing and matching percentages in a way that compounds error.

                Certainly a possibility.

                which still puts it at just over 1% of GDP.

                Fair enough.

                Basically, you’re suggesting we have dramatically (like 1.5x to 2x) better health services than those other industrialized countries and we aren’t using metrics that capture that fact. I could definitely see us having better results depending on the metric, but without at least some sensible metric…

                I’ve seen hints of this, very different survival rates of certain cancers, lack of queuing for important surgeries and the like. The problem is this *very* quickly gets into cherry picking.

                Ideally we’d adjust for culture (murder, being fat), which intuitively should be large, but I have no stats for that. Another strong possibility is we’re deep into “diminishing returns”.

                You still seem to be speculating that we’d do those dumb things in a way that other countries don’t seem to be.

                Oh, they do dumb things too, and because they’re not using markets either, they’re certainly subject to insane prices and so forth. However IMHO we’re further down that path than they are.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                …I still don’t see why we can’t afford a European system.

                Because these systems don’t reduce costs, they reduce the growth of costs (and even that would be difficult here). They’re also an expensive expansion of the existing system because they bring sick people who were previously untreated into the system.

                Our system is already really expensive. Expanding that expensive system onto more, often sick, people isn’t going to reduce the total cost of the system.

                I mean it’s not like European bodies behave differently than ours…

                If only that were true. If we weren’t the fattest first world nation we’d have a lot fewer sick people. Give us European bodies and many of our problems go away.

                …or that hospitals operate differently.

                Also untrue. For example many European hospitals use the “ward” model where one doctor or nurse can deal with dozens of patients at once. Ours are mostly built with private rooms to prevent the transmission of disease (and I suspect, require more doctors and nurses).

                We’re not going to burn down our hospitals and build European style ones, so we’re stuck needing vastly more people to run them.

                Politics are diffrrent, yeah, but that’s the variable were trying to change.

                Politics is a stand in for culture, and culture is one of the hardest things to change.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                So the things standing in the way of universal coverage:
                1. Americsns are fat.
                2. European hospitals are run more efficiently.

                Is that it?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                No, I think Dark’s making a different point here:

                UHC is EASY since all you have to do is open the doors to everyone who currently doesn’t have insurance/access/money to pay cash. So he’s imagining a situation in which UHC is overlayed on the exact same system we have right now, and if we did that, then he’s absolutely right that costs would go thru the roof (wait a minute! costs are already going thru the roof! and they were before passage of the ACA! oh, well, that’s a different topic, so let’s let it go).

                What people are referring to as “UHC” is ambiguous to a certain extent, I think, since Dark’s restricting his conception of merely to the coverage component while others (me included) are focusing the systemic changes in pricing and absence of beuracracy (not to mention multi-layered profit motive) that such a system would entail.

                So we’re talking about different things. Hence, Dark’s insistence that advocates of singlepayer (say) present evidence that instituting an NHS-like system will actually lower costs. That data, as far as I can tell, isn’t out there. (I looked! A bit anyway.) The nearest bit of evidence to answer his question would come from Canada, I think, since they moved to a national healthcare system only in pieces, with several provinces adopting single payer at different times, which might permit an analysis of the T1 v T2 issue Dark’s worried about.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                UHC is EASY since all you have to do is open the doors to everyone who currently doesn’t have insurance/access/money to pay cash. So he’s imagining a situation in which UHC is overlayed on the exact same system we have right now, and if we did that, then he’s absolutely right that costs would go thru the roof

                This.

                Dark’s insistence that advocates of singlepayer (say) present evidence that instituting an NHS-like system will actually lower costs. That data, as far as I can tell, isn’t out there.

                Also this. We don’t have any examples of massive savings… because UHC has always been just bolted onto the existing machinery? That’s probably the political reality.

                others (me included) are focusing the systemic changes in pricing and absence of bureaucracy (not to mention multi-layered profit motive) that such a system would entail.

                If it were this easy and actually going to save money, then it should be possible at a state level. The various state level experiments have had costs go through the roof until the budget breaks.

                Next, I’m not sure how “absence of bureaucracy” gets into play here. Are we going to outlaw the hospital having a bureaucracy? We’re not going to use prices to signal anything, and presumably they’ll remain invisible (like what Kazzy found)… So why is this supposed to make anything cheaper? Is having someone else pay those insane bills going to reduce them? Are we going to micromanage the bills with a bureaucracy?

                It feels like you’re suggesting GM could save money by getting rid of it’s entire bureaucracy and sales force by simply giving way it’s cars for “free” and billing the government (or that we’re going to double down on everything that makes the system expensive). My expectation is the increase in demand makes other changes moot.

                Triage medicine has been suggested… but presumably that means deliberately not treating the old and dying because they’re old and dying. That could work (except politically), but I *think* this is what you want the system will *prevent*.

                Savings probably needs to happen by reducing demand some way. “Price” is one way, Queues or Triage/Death Panels is another.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Again, countries which have UHC *do* *not* have blank checks for every single one of their citizens. They let people die. By the standards of your rhetoric, they let people die in the streets because of lack of care. They’re just less honest about it than what I’m suggesting.

                I’ll take, Dark! We both agree that I’m dishonest about people dying in the streets and cut our healthcare costs in half.

                Is it a deal?Report

              • Avatar Kolohe in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Chip Daniels: For examp;e, will the defense contractors have even one bit less influence than they do now?

                Mattis has a punchers chance of kickstarting getting the procurement process back into some semblance of order. (He also has a chance of failing miserably in this cause it’s not his background and the Congress in poised to write some blank checks)

                Similarly, Tillerson may possibly out realpolitik the realpolitick professionals – or he may get out maneuvered (and he probably won’t be big on international climate change management frameworks)Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Kolohe
                Ignored
                says:

                Everyone may be outmaneuvered. I mean, good point, but that’s the nature of the game.

                The thing I see is that all of Trump’s nominees are outside-the-institutional-box type people. So if anyone can buck institutional intertia, these types of folks have the best chance.

                And frankly I have to give Trump credit for following thru on this stuff. He didn’t cave and nominate the (institutionally) “safe” pick.

                For better or worse…Report

              • Avatar Kolohe in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m giving the benefit of the doubt to the Sec State and Sec Def picks exactly because they’re outside the intitutional box but they are also people with serious accomplishments that I believe will take their jobs seriously.

                The people at HHS and Education and to a lesser extent Labor are ideologues with preconceived notions of what works and what doesn’t – they may do a good job, but I wouldn’t bet that way.

                I have literally no expectations about Carson and Perry, and I’m not sure if they have any either.

                The worst pick for me Sessions, due to my latent linertarianism, but he’s the guy with the greatest chance of easy Senate confirmation and the least oversight and interest from the White House. (I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re getting Messe 2.0)

                I don’t have a problem with the Treasury secretary because it’s really hard to be a bad Treasury Secretary.Report

              • Avatar Kolohe in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                Yea, I only remembered from the posters how ‘pig’ was spelled.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                For example Trump has already criticized the cost overruns on the F35. It was the sort of thing that libs and conservatives both understood but nobody really said anything about publically until Trump. And even with the cost overruns, it’s not necessarily clear what to do about it. But at least Trump is shaking some things up.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Huh?? People have been criticizing and talking about the cost overruns on the F 35 and many past weapons systems for years. It’s not even a poorly kept secret. It’s been frequent and common.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                How many people criticized defense department spending after they were elected?Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                This is why Trump has so much military in his cabinet — because he’s going to be tougher on defense spending. You know as well as I do that he’s going to follow the standard GOP economic platform:

                1. Raise military spending.
                2. Cut taxes.
                3. A miracle occurs….
                4. Balanced budgets!Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                He’s already said he wants to increase military spending (obliquely: “make our military into the best in the world” or some such), but he also wants – I tend to think he’s sincere here – cut our the Congressionally imposed bullshit spending that the military doesn’t want as well as impose a check on cost over-runs.

                Oh, he’ll do all the things you say, at least given the evidence to this point: increase military spending, radically cut taxes, huge deficit spending, etc and so on according to the standard GOP model.

                But I think he want’s to give the Generals the stuff they want rather than what some Senator from Mumblefuck wants them to have. In fact, he holds politicians in such contempt it wouldn’t surprise me if it was personal more than principled.

                Add: “If you’re going to have crime, it might as well be organized crime.”Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                You left out “expand government”.

                That quibble aside, yep. Fiscal conservatives typically get screwed by the GOP the moment they get the ability to spend other people’s money.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                FWIW….actually plenty of them. Lot’s of ex mil pols know how sporked up the weapons procurement system is.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                ya know, I can hear Hillary’s voice in my head saying exactly that: “And when we get to Washington, we’re gonna take on the defense contractors! Aand the Senators who get elected by pandering to them! We’re gonna put a lot of defense systems employees outa work!”

                {{Shiver}} Flashback nightmare. Sorry.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                She would have said it milder than that. Trump can babble about the F35 costing to much but large defense build up and reform the procurement system just don’t go together. Hogs to the trough time.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                Milder in the sense that, in this case, none of us would have believed she was serious.

                {{OK, I’ll stop pounding on the 2016 Democratic nominee, even tho I’ll probably never really get over it…}}Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Stillwater
                Ignored
                says:

                Probably a wise choice of how to spend your energy.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                Certainly better than choosing to defend her. But hey, it’s water under the bridge, right?

                Are you ready to Make America Great Again!Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, the scale of the cost of the F35 is way over anything that I am familiar with.

                In any event, as much as people knew about the horrific cost I don’t recall anybody making a serious effort to defund it.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                How can it be defunded??? The AF, Navy, Marines and a few key allies are all dependent on it fill vital roles. There is no other plane to replace. All the services are stretching their current air frames just to get to keep functioning until the 35 comes on line. What are they going to do , start building Super 18’s, 15’s and 16’s again??? The 35 has to be made to work or most of our air warfare capacity goes defunct.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, for the first part, we don’t have any F35s. Supposedly we’re going to get them sometime Real Soon Now.

                We might be better off reopening old production lines. We might not. In fact, that’s the main reason that the F35 has cost so much as it has. No matter how bad the delays and the cost might be, there was never a clear situation where it was obvious that we had to take a few steps back to go down a different road.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                The problem of course is that the 15’s, 16’s and 18’s are older technology. They are all designs from th 70’s i believe. And what do the Marines use? At least that is what the military will say, all the current models are old and far from current tech. Try selling that to TPTB and the military. Heck try selling that to the public. Do you think anybody is going to be ok with building 40 year old designs so that our pilots are way out classed in tech terms. Yeah right, ain’t gonna happen. Trump wants a military to out class every other military, that means the best and highest tech. No way around it.Report

              • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                They’ll do what they always do — buy significantly fewer than the original plans called for. As the per-unit cost for the platforms go up, there will be fewer of them, and greater reluctance to put them in actual harm’s way. This one of the reasons that I think in 25 or so years the US is a regional power for conventional warfare, not a global power.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Michael Cain
                Ignored
                says:

                Yup. That is the story of the F 22.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                “The resistance of the refuseniks is just a means for the governing majority to simply write you out of the equation altogether.”

                Which means, if and when the ‘refuseniks’ preferred candidate wins, we’ll have a thousand thinkpieces about how they weren’t listened to?Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                I think your time frame is off. We just had an election, we’re not going to have another one in time for this strategy to be relevant.

                The GOP already has a tailwind in 2018. It’s reasonable that a D could win the election for POTUS in 2020 but the American people are more concerned about America and Americans doing well between now and then.Report

          • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to Kazzy
            Ignored
            says:

            @kazzy

            I think Murali’s right here. The problem with even some people focusing on Trump’s tweets and jumping up and down about them is that it creates fatigue and doesn’t do anything to move the needle. We spent most of 2016 focusing on the tweets and such and this gave us Trump’s freak victory even as HRC won the popular vote by 2.84 million. There is evidence that suggests painting Trump as abnomal backfired and helped lead to the freak victory:

            http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/12/clinton-really-shouldnt-have-distanced-trump-from-the-gop.htmlReport

          • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to Kazzy
            Ignored
            says:

            @kazzy

            Lee has pointed to this essay before but the Italian left was not able to get rid of Bertolucci until they started treating him like a normal politician.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/opinion/the-right-way-to-resist-trump.html?_r=0

            Mr. Berlusconi was able to govern Italy for as long as he did mostly thanks to the incompetence of his opposition. It was so rabidly obsessed with his personality that any substantive political debate disappeared; it focused only on personal attacks, the effect of which was to increase Mr. Berlusconi’s popularity. His secret was an ability to set off a Pavlovian reaction among his leftist opponents, which engendered instantaneous sympathy in most moderate voters. Mr. Trump is no different.

            We saw this dynamic during the presidential campaign. Hillary Clinton was so focused on explaining how bad Mr. Trump was that she too often didn’t promote her own ideas, to make the positive case for voting for her. The news media was so intent on ridiculing Mr. Trump’s behavior that it ended up providing him with free advertising.

            Report

            • Avatar greginak in reply to Saul Degraw
              Ignored
              says:

              There haven’t been any policy issues to debate since the election. There are a handful of likely softballs the R’s are going to toss. We’ll see how it goes but the D’s do actually fight back on some issues. Also all this is twitter bs, it doesn’t really register with most people. Trump isn’t popular so needling him is always a good move. I’m hoping plenty of people on the left will needle Trump as much as possible since it brings out his worst side.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to greginak
                Ignored
                says:

                There haven’t been any policy issues to debate since the election.

                Indeed.

                You know what I think talking about his tweets does right now?

                It *keeps his approval rating low*. Trump is basically the only president who hasn’t have a honeymoon period, *exactly because* he can’t pivot from being the Republican candidate to be everyone’s new president. He simply cannot change his personality.

                And as long as we keep *talking* about that, he doesn’t get any sort of approval bounce.

                But what we need to do, *very soon now*, is stop focusing on his personality, and start focusing on what he’s doing.

                And the start isn’t even really ‘policy issues’, it’s going to be the people he’s nominated. And, yes, he’s already nominated people, and they’ve been talking about some, but the Democrats don’t officially get airtime about them yet.

                They will as soon as the hearing start.

                At the moment they do, we need *shut the hell up* about Trump’s personality. We’ve already damaged his reputation there as much as possible. (Well, *he* damaged it, we just made sure everyone could see it.)

                From *that moment on*, from the day he takes office or whenever, we need to pivot, hard, into talking about *what he actually doing*. There will be a temptation to taunt him if he does or says something pompous or stupid during inauguration…do not. From that moment on, his personality is not an issue. His policies are.

                And I say ‘we’ need to do this. Actually, what *we* need to do is figure out how to get the *media* to do this.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                It *keeps his approval rating low*. Trump is basically the only president who hasn’t have a honeymoon period, *exactly because* he can’t pivot from being the Republican candidate to be everyone’s new president. He simply cannot change his personality.

                And as long as we keep *talking* about that, he doesn’t get any sort of approval bounce.

                Au contraire, this is exactly the opposite of what’s happened. Trump’s approval was about 20 points in the hole on Election Day, now it’s about 4. The rabid nature of the opposition to Trump is the thing that’s keeping him above water politically.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                Au contraire, this is exactly the opposite of what’s happened. Trump’s approval was about 20 points in the hole on Election Day, now it’s about 4.

                Dude, incoming president’s approval always goes up. The thing is, Trump is not going up *anywhere near* as well as anyone else.

                The way this is supposed to work is that the vast majority of people do not generally care who the president is.

                Someone gets elected, maybe the guy they like, maybe not, and then have three months to get used to the idea of that person being president. And, on top of that, the guy is allowed to pivot, *hard*, and start talking to everyone. He’s no longer a candidate.

                Once he gets in office and starts doing thing, the approval goes down (In fact, it goes down immediately, for some reason. I think people suddenly remember ‘Wait, he’s a Democrat/Republican, and I dislike Democrats/Republicans’.), but before that point, between the election and taking office, approval generally skyrockets.

                http://www.businessinsider.com/trumps-approval-rating-lowest-of-last-3-incoming-presidents-2016-12

                I can’t find a day-to-day poll or anything, but before Obama took office, he had a *75% approval*.

                When Bush took office, he had only *two months* for people to get used to him, *and* he became president in interesting circumstances that made a lot of people somewhat angry. And yet he had 65% approval.

                Scandal-prone Clinton had 67%.

                Trump has had much more time to move the needle, and has managed to not even break 50%. He’s basically still got…his voters. He *might* break 50% before he takes office, except he has a 48% *disapproval* rating, and it’s sorta hard to turn *that* into approval.

                Or, to look at it another way, by the time the president takes office, he’s supposed to have almost 90% of his own party approving of him, and about 40%-50% of the *other* party approving of him also.

                Trump is managing that first thing to some extent, but doing *horrifically* bad at that second thing.

                And the thing that is keeping that second thing from happening is that people keep talking about how Trump is Not Normal. (Although it’s possible that it’s *Trump himself* refusing to try to include those people that is causing the problem.)

                The rabid nature of the opposition to Trump is the thing that’s keeping him above water politically.

                I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean. How does a president elect *not* stay above water? How would we know if they are not? What even are you talking about?Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                In fact, it goes down immediately, for some reason. I think people suddenly remember ‘Wait, he’s a Democrat/Republican, and I dislike Democrats/Republicans’.

                This, incidentally, is an important thing I like a lot of people are overlooking when comparing presidential ratings.

                A lot of places list the ratings when the various presidents take office. That is *not* the correct comparison. Those are like 10% lower than the *transition* ratings.

                President transitions ratings are normally really, really high. In fact, they might be highest ratings a president *ever* gets. They are basically the American people giving their max benefit-of-the-doubt to the president. And this point, *right now*, this week, close to the end but not close enough that we’re talking about how inauguration is about to happen…is the sweet spot.

                Right now, the president normally gets the approval of anyone who thinks they *could* like the president. The people that think ‘He seems like an okay guy, even if I disagree with him’. That’s *right now*. This point in time is when that happens.

                And then actual reality hits and that guy takes office and is going to *do things*, and people start thinking about him doing those things, and thus he loses 20% of the partisans on the opposite side. (10% total) Bam, it just disappears.

                I don’t know if this is going to happen to Trump or not. I think it might happen *less*, because the Democrats who might normally go ‘Wait, this guy is going to cut Medicaid’ and *change* their opinion already don’t like Trump…

                …but, OTOH, it is theoretically possible that *Republicans* start peeling off, because the GOP is talking about trying to do things that are pretty unpopular. Sure, they *win elections*, but the GOP *used* to be smart enough to not actually try to do them. (With occasional tentative movements that then electrocuted them on various third rails.)

                But they’ve lost too many of their calculating moderate politicians that could stop them.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                Its even more acute when we look at how wildly out of sync Trump’s voters’ expectations are, with reality of what Trump can do, and the even more stark disconnect between Trump’s voters’ expectations of Congress and Congress’ own agenda.

                You’ve all seen the interviews with his voters and how they expect:
                1. That Trump will bring back good paying middle class jobs; Yet his Cabinet and Congress are both dedicated to outsourcing, cheap immigration, and lowering wages.

                2. That Trump will both “get tougher” with America’s enemies, and avoid costly messy foreign intervention;

                3. That Trump will avoid social issues like abortion and homosexuality; Yet Congress is determined to overturn Roe and find some way that allows people to discriminate against gays.

                4. That Trump will protect Social Security and Medicare; Yet Congress is determined to destroy both of these.

                5. That Trump will overturn Obamacare, but keep the parts that everyone likes. Everyone else knows this is impossible.

                All Presidents-elect have a honeymoon period, when they are still a blank slate upon which everyone can project their own desires. They immediately drop in popularity once they actually start to do stuff.

                And Congress is poised to do stuff, a lot of stuff, very rapidly, and Trump will no longer be able to evade the question; he will either sign the bills, veto the bills, or ignore them and let them become law.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                All of this is ignoring Trump’s historically low approvals leading into the election. Given that, I think things have worked out exceedingly well for him since then.

                It should be obvious but the constituency that voted for Trump and/or the GOP in other races is a governing majority.

                Therefore if the D’s want to get any traction at all from where they are they have to peel away some part of it. So in this context the tweets are helping Trump. The people who would supported Trump or might consider doing so find Trump’s tweets to be amusing or mildly annoying. Trump’s adversaries have worked themselves into a rage about something that a governing majority of America doesn’t care about.

                What they do care about is that America needs to get on the same page now that the election is over and it’s not because libs are still indulging their own sour grapes.

                Trump is staffing his Administration and doing things that Americans expect an incoming Administration to do. Libs want to throw a wrench in the works but Americans can and will blame them instead of Trump.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                All of this is ignoring Trump’s historically low approvals leading into the election. Given that, I think things have worked out exceedingly well for him since then.

                Trump started low, but his climb had been pretty damn slow, too. Slower than any other president.

                It should be obvious but the constituency that voted for Trump and/or the GOP in other races is a governing majority.

                Uh, no, that sentence is gibberish, sorry, try again.

                The *constituency* that voted for the Republicans is not a *governing* anything. The constituency who voted for Republicans are, instead, the *voters*.

                And they were not the majority of voters.

                Those voters *elected* a governing majority.

                Therefore if the D’s want to get any traction at all from where they are they have to peel away some part of it.

                And ‘traction’ in this sense means what, exactly? Some sort of revote so they can show they have gotten a majority of people? (Well, they already have that. More of a majority?)

                I’m not sure what *you* think is going on here, but what is *actually* going on is that people are pointing out ways Trump is failing at being president.

                And, yes, it’s somewhat rare to be able to do that *before* legally becoming president, but it is possible, and Trump managed it. President-elects are supposed to, at minimal, *act* presidential.

                So in this context the tweets are helping Trump. The people who would supported Trump or might consider doing so find Trump’s tweets to be amusing or mildly annoying. Trump’s adversaries have worked themselves into a rage about something that a governing majority of America doesn’t care about.

                Oh, I think *failing to act and look presidential* is indeed something that voters care about, in fact, it’s something they probably care about *a bit too much*, and we’d be better off if voters instead cared more about other things.

                But we go to the polls with the voters we have, not the voters we should have.

                And again, you’re using ‘governing majority’ in a completely nonsensical way. You seem to be using it to mean ‘a minority of people distributing in such a way they can elect the president’.

                That is not what ‘governing majority’ means. (That is not any sort of string of words that would *have* a term for it.)

                A governing majority is a *majority* of the people currently *governing*.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                Uh, no, that sentence is gibberish, sorry, try again.

                The *constituency* that voted for the Republicans is not a *governing* anything. The constituency who voted for Republicans are, instead, the *voters*.

                I think you need to read a little closer because I think my comment was comprehensible enough to be honest.

                The constituency that voted for Trump and the slightly different constituency that voted for other Republicans is demographically situated to control the federal government for the indefinite future (and the state governments for that matter).

                That means, in order for the Demo’s to have a legitimate seat at the table for an arm’s length negotiation for this or that, they have to peel off some of it. Since the election, there’s been nothing that’s happened to peel away any Trump/GOP voters, and a number of things to reinforce them and maybe bring in some new voters who weren’t with them on Election Day.

                This means that the D’s in Washington aren’t at liberty to argue their own ideological point of view without reference to the best interest of America as a whole, where the American people have at provisionally adjudicated that in the Republicans’s favor.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                @koz

                I just got off the phone with America.

                Americans think you misread their tweet, or text, or Facebook post or something.

                Please check in with them again, because, damn.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m sure you were adopting this kind of Me The People talk towards Republicans in 2008, then, right?Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                “The rabid nature of the opposition to Trump is the thing that’s keeping him above water politically.”

                This is how children behave, mind you. Maybe it is a new reality that we need to deal with… but it doesn’t make the behavior any more antisocial or childish.Report

              • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                “The rabid nature of the opposition to Trump is the thing that’s keeping him above water politically.”

                Am I parsing Koz’s statement correctly? Because I’m reading that as “Trump’s only popular at all because liberals hate him so much”.

                Which seems an extension of the “liberals are to blame for everything” thought process. “Conservatives are only racist because liberals called them racist, so they became racist to spite the liberals!”.

                Basically Cleek’s law, again.

                Koz clearly has a dim view of conservatives. I mean I think they’re fully realized adults with opinions of their own, but from that — apparently they’re thin-skinned, easily led stooges that don’t actually think — just react.

                Who put them in the Skinner box, I wonder?Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Morat20
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                says:

                The cheapshots against conservatives are pretty weak, but even more than that they’re not really relevant.

                The American people don’t have to like Trump but they want him to succeed because he will very soon be the President of the United States and they want America to succeed.

                In this context the libs are getting no traction at all. The complaints against various Cabinet people look bad enough, but the in context of sour grapes about Russia or Comey or the Electoral College it’s much worse.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
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                says:

                “The American people don’t have to like Trump but they want him to succeed because he will very soon be the President of the United States and they want America to succeed.”

                Just like the GOP and conservatives rallied around President Obama’s success. For the nation’s sake.

                What was the GOO Congress’s stated goal? A one-term President?

                U-S-A!

                Koz, it seems as if you expect the Dems/liberals to act like rational adulta while excusing the childish antics of GOP/conservatives. Which is cool so long as we remember that adults get to remain in charge even if all the kids vote differently.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
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                says:

                Lib, are you completely out of your skull? The American people voted Republican in the 2016 election in large part to get rid of the corrupt and entrenched libs in the Executive Branch and other cultural power centers. And now you hope that the GOP is going to put the libs in charge anyway? Libs be trippin.

                You ought to appreciate that the GOP has more than the federal elective offices, they have a governing majority in the country as well, and that is a much bigger deal. Politically speaking, the libs aren’t going to get any traction until they peel away at least some part of it.

                And given what’s happened since the election, that’s not happened yet. For me, it wasn’t a completely done deal that I would vote for Trump until I left the voting booth. The people who I know who voted for Trump think he’s a buffoon.

                But since the election, the rationale for voting for Trump has strengthened, and the reasons to oppose him have diminished. Until that changes, you’ve got nuthin’.

                Now is the time to quit bitching about your civic obligations to America, and start honoring them.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                You’re holding liberals and conservatives, GOP and Dems to different standards. If that’s your boat, float it.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                No I’m not. The double standard is between Trump and his critics, not liberals and conservatives. Trump gets to troll you, but you can’t troll him back. I wish I could sympathize, but I can’t. Sorry I’m not sorry.

                More importantly, it’s not me who’s creating or enforcing this double standard, it’s the American people and the lay of the land. Trump’s twitter is a known star in the firmament. But now the election is over, and the American people are looking toward governance if not bipartisanship.

                So if you troll him back, you’re just a sour grapes loser, and for subverting the collective American interest, we can enforce penalties against your political and ideological interests, and I hope we do.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                You claim Dems ought to wish Trump success with zero evidence GOPers sought the same for Obama.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                You’ve mentioned several things liberals/Dems ought or ought not to do, all if which conservatives/the GOP didn’t or did do. When called to answer, you point to the scoreboard. Which is cool if you want to live in a world that rewards the very behavior you claim to reject.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
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                says:

                Not at all. The GOP opposed Obama’s policy moves, not his appointments, and not before he took office. Without looking it up, I’m thinking maybe 20 GOP Senators voted not to confirm Eric Holder, and that’s about it. Mitch McConnell probably voted to confirm all of Obama’s nominees.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
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                says:

                Koz:
                Not at all.The GOP opposed Obama’s policy moves, not his appointments, and not before he took office.Without looking it up, I’m thinking maybe 20 GOP Senators voted not to confirm Eric Holder, and that’s about it.Mitch McConnell probably voted to confirm all of Obama’s nominees.

                Have you been in a coma or something? Presidents get to appoint more than just cabinet officials (and Obama didn’t get all of his original cabinet picks). And when it comes to everything below the cabinet level, the GOP obstructed Obama’s appointments more than any other president in history.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Don Zeko
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                says:

                I believe there are more than 100 judgeships left vacant because nominees were blocked.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Including a seat on the Supreme Court! That’s on top of the blanket blockade that tried for the DC Circuit and the head of the CFPB, which is what finally prompted the Dems to go nuclear. And then there were countless undersecretaries, ambassadors, etc. I guess I get it if you want to defend all of that on the merits, although I disagree. But the idea that McConnell was cooperative on appointments is so completely alien to the facts of the matter that I just don’t know how to deal with it.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
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                says:

                Judges are policy, not personnel appointments in the Executive Branch reporting to the President somewhere. Or more precisely, they’re a sort of grey area between executive appointments and policy, politically speaking.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                The GOP obstructed Obama’s executive branch appointments, too. Here’s a couple of the first links google produced.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                None of that is relevant to the initial staffing of the Cabinet by a new Administration.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Keep moving the goalposts.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Kazzy, you’re being dense. The key to America, or any functioning democracy really, is the peaceful transfer of power away from one party to another when the voters will it. The President is the head of the Executive Branch, and he needs people who are politically accountable to him, as opposed to the prior President representing the other party.

                This something that shouldn’t be hard to understand, and has been upheld by both parties in various times, both outgoing and incoming, including the transition from W to President Obama. Except in the current circumstance, where the Demo Establishment egged on by refuseniks such as yourself, are simply bad-faith crying wolf.

                The downside of that for you, is that the GOP can simply say, you’re bad faith crying wolf, and then have legitimate license just do what they want, when otherwise there would be some amount of accountability constraining them. I think this is currently working to your detriment. But by all means keep going if you want.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
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                says:

                Yep… I’m the dense one.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Yep… I’m the dense one.

                Like this. I explain to you in nuts-and-bolts terms, perfectly clear enough it seems to me, exactly why your train of thought is flawed, and the best you can respond is “bounce like rubber, sticks like glue”

                It’s not that hard to just figure it out straight up, instead of trying to wedge your ideological aspirations into a place where they plainly won’t fit.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
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                says:

                Again… they were on a stated mission to make him a one-term President.Report

              • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Didn’t the Senate Dems, sometime in Obama’s first two years, exercise the no-filibuster nuclear option on appointments below Cabinet and SCOTUS because the Senate Republicans were blocking all of his appointments? Led by McConnell?Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Michael Cain
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                says:

                It happened in 2013 when the GOP blocked every single one of Obama’s nominees to the DC circuit and refused to confirm a head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which could only use many of its statutory powers with a duly confirmed head.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                The GOP opposed Obama’s policy moves, not his appointments, and not before he took office.

                First, the GOP *did* oppose his policy moves before he took office. They said that they would quite clearly.

                However, you are correct that *normally* the cabinet is just approved.

                It’s one thing to confirm Sessions, which I don’t have much of a problem with.

                Same with Mick Mulvaney and Elaine Chao and Ryan Zinke and…possibly Tom Price, although if this was a *normal* cabinet I might question Price. But I’m fine with all that. I disagree with some of their positions, but it’s not *my* cabinet.

                And while I don’t have any objection to James Mattism but we do have the ‘should be a civilian for seven years’ rule for *reason*, so I don’t know why Trump’s trying to ignore that. There needs to be some discussion about waiving that rule before it happens.

                This leaves Scott Pruitt are basically the only *currently-in-government* person that I think is it is worth Democrats arguing against due to *policy* positions. Maybe. Maybe not, in these circumstances.

                ——-
                And right here is drawn was the line of sanity, and we are now past it. The above choices are normal choices, perhaps some bad, some good, whatever. They are choices that one or two should get some discussion of, but they basically should all be confirmed.

                Below here, are the choices that *are not normal and should be be confirmed*:

                First, the two people that have government experience, but absolutely none of it in the position they’re being tapped for. What foreign policy experience does Nikki Haley have? What qualifications does Rick Perry have to be Energy Secretary, a position that is almost already held by a *physicist*? (And Ben Carson would be here, but he just turned it down, right?)

                Those need to be dealt with with a ‘Are you serious?’.

                HOWEVER, there is a much bigger problem of the people with literally has no experience in government.

                Andrew Puzder, Rex Tillerson, Steven Mnuchin, Linda McMahon, Betsy DeVos, these are all COMPLETELY ABSURD NAMES.

                Additionally…no one is confirming anyone without tax records and divestment of giant conflicts of interest. Period. Having to do that has long been a norm, and while Trump apparently gets to ignore that norm, none of his nominees get to do it just because he did.

                Oh, and people are going to be vetted, like normal, and some of them will probably have skeletons in the closet. And everyone will be ‘Oh, the Democrats blocked those guys’, but the actual reality is, vetting is *part of being appointed to the cabinet*, and Trump is just being a lunatic by announcing people *without* having that done first.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                It’s one thing to confirm Sessions, which I don’t have much of a problem with.

                Same with Mick Mulvaney and Elaine Chao and Ryan Zinke and…possibly Tom Price, although if this was a *normal* cabinet I might question Price. But I’m fine with all that. I disagree with some of their positions, but it’s not *my* cabinet.

                And while I don’t have any objection to James Mattism but we do have the ‘should be a civilian for seven years’ rule for *reason*, so I don’t know why Trump’s trying to ignore that. There needs to be some discussion about waiving that rule before it happens.

                This leaves Scott Pruitt are basically the only *currently-in-government* person that I think is it is worth Democrats arguing against due to *policy* positions. Maybe. Maybe not, in these circumstances.

                I haven’t heard any substantive complaints against any of Trump’s nominees. If the D’s want to complain against Ben Carson, they probably have a reasonable gripe. But so far, their method has been simply to throw a bunch of crap against a wall and hope some of it sticks. The whole thing smacks of trolling by libs, which the country has lost patience for imo.

                As far as Mattis goes, from what I’ve seen the seven year rule hasn’t been ignored at all, but it’s widely expected to be waived by Congress.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Koz
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                says:

                I haven’t heard any substantive complaints against any of Trump’s nominees.

                Do you mean you haven’t heard any complaints which you view as substantive or that you haven’t heard any complaints which other people view as substantive?Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                Either one really, the whole thing just looks like a bunch of trolling.

                Most of the complaints are either really weak personal accusations, like Jeff Sessions, or policy disagreements masquerading as personnel issues, eg Pruitt. If the libs had anything else, people would probably at least listen but when you make a habit of crying wolf people learn to ignore you.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to Koz
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                says:

                If the libs had anything else, people would probably at least listen but when you make a habit of crying wolf people learn to ignore you.

                Continuing our traipse down the primrose path, do you mean that if they had anything else people like you would listen or that since they don’t no one is listening?Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Stillwater
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                says:

                Both, really, but especially the latter. It seems to me that liberals are just throwing a bunch of stuff against a wall in the hope that something sticks. Given that, I’m not particularly paying attention to particulars and I don’t think that anybody else is either (except for those implacably opposed to Trump already).Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Koz
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                says:

                I’m not particularly paying attention to particulars

                That went without saying.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                I haven’t heard any substantive complaints against any of Trump’s nominees

                What. The. Fuck. You have just firmly crossed into trolldom.

                So, basically, you decided to take the people that *I don’t have any complaint with* (Or at least not enough of one to say they shouldn’t be confirmed, assuming vetting checks them out.) and pretend I *did* have a complaint with them, but hadn’t stated a real one.

                And you then totally ignore the list I *did* raise quite substantive complaints against, namely ‘People without any government experience at any level should not be put in charge of large government departments’, and additionally ‘People with government experience but without any *knowledge* of a subject should not be placed in charge of that thing’. I.e., someone with no international experience should not the UN Ambassador, and someone with no physics background should not be in charge of the Department of Energy, which is actually the ‘Department of Nuclear Stuff’.

                Those…are pretty clear objections. They are not confusing in any way, or partisan-based, or even have anything to do with policy. (Although some of their policy positions are *also* absurd.)Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                Well yeah, that’s what crying wolf gets you. That’s what I’ve been trying to get at for a half dozen comments or so.

                Simply put, it’s been obvious that Team Lib is trying to prevent a normal transition from one party to the other, maybe it’s just irrelevant carping or maybe there’s serious intent, it’s hard to know for sure.

                So far, we’ve had complaints about Comey, Russia and funky business surrounding the Electoral College (the original topic of this thread obv). Then there was a bunch of whingeing about DeVos, Pruitt, Tillerson, Mnuchin, etc.

                There has simply been no recognition that the Demo’s have Got The Memo that the other team won the election, they’re going to put in their guys who are our adversaries, and we’re going to have to make it work as best as we can.

                So now, you want to say, wait a second, these couple guys here are really a problem are we have actual substantive reasons why we don’t want them, and you’re getting ignored. Imagine that! I never would have guessed.

                That’s why this normalization business isn’t working. Instead of un-normalizing Trump, you’re un-normalizing yourselves.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                Simply put, it’s been obvious that Team Lib is trying to prevent a normal transition from one party to the other, maybe it’s just irrelevant carping or maybe there’s serious intent, it’s hard to know for sure.

                And this is just, flatly, delusional.

                Team Lib? Who are you talking about? Who do you think is in charge of this? Is this just you reading a bunch of blogs?

                The actual elected officials have not interfered in the transition at all. They are, *as their first objection to Trump*, making it clear they are not very happy with the cabinet nominees, although their point so far seems to be ‘Why the hell are all these people being nominated without being vetted first? Why are *we* having to do the vetting?’, and they will presumably get around to the lack of experience after that.

                So now, you want to say, wait a second, these couple guys here are really a problem are we have actual substantive reasons why we don’t want them, and you’re getting ignored. Imagine that! I never would have guessed.

                Uh, no.

                I wasn’t talking to vague amorphous blob of people, as you appear to think *you* are having a discussion with.

                You said you hadn’t heard any *substantive* objections to any of the cabinet, and I pointed out that there were some *really obvious* objections, namely, a lot of them seem to have no government experience whatsoever. (And a smaller amount of them have experience, but not in what they are being nominated for.)

                That’s a pretty substantive and entirely reasonable objection to someone getting a cabinet position.

                You not only ignored that, you weirdly quoted the *other* half of what I said and then pretended that you *still* hadn’t heard any objections.

                You. I am having a discussion with *you*. You, OTOH, appear to be having a discussion with a giant blob of liberal blogs you read that you think is somehow ‘Team Lib’. You think the American people are looking at those and going ‘Well, they’re complaining about everyone, none of those objections are important’.

                Here’s a fun fact for you to keep in mind: America does not read damn political blogs.

                They watch the media. And the media, when it talks about Trump’s cabinet, is focusing on basically what I said: That they are absurdly inexperienced. (And the media also seems to think it’s important that, as a group, they are *extremely rich*.)

                This is because, as I said, the Democrats have barely started talking about the cabinet yet. It is entirely possible they will make a poor call and start talking about Sessions and Pruitt. That seems rather unlikely, though. The one everyone seems to looking at is Tillerson, who both has no government experience and doesn’t really have any demonstrable experience in international relations.Report

              • Avatar Morat20 in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                A guy who refers to the people he talks to as “Lib” is engaging in a strawman? He’s lecturing imaginary groups of people, all falling to his superior ideology and arguments, rather than talking to the individuals he’s responding to?

                I’m so shocked. Where, Sir, is the fainting couch?Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                And this is just, flatly, delusional.

                Team Lib? Who are you talking about? Who do you think is in charge of this? Is this just you reading a bunch of blogs

                This is not supposed to be difficult or obscure. The Left-libs in America have been attempting to groundlessly discredit the electoral victory of Donald Trump, to the point of trying to prevent him from assuming office, in a plain exercise of bad faith. Eg, here:

                http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/opinion/the-tainted-election.html

                And if I recall correctly, you yourself was arguing in favor of preemptively impeaching Donald Trump, in this thread or another recent one.

                So let’s state a few premises that ought to be obvious. The functioning of America depends on the peaceful change of power between parties. Donald Trump will soon be the head of the Executive Branch. That means he needs the opportunity to put people who are politically accountable to him and not President Obama.

                Simply put, this is a context where libs are not at liberty to advance their ideological preferences. Simply put, they and you have obligations to America as a whole, obligations whose fulfillment should go without saying. But for now, that is not happening. Libs are either upholding that obligation in the most corrosive detrimental way possible, or outright failing at it.

                In that context, I’m not going to entertain a grab bag of complaints against Trump’s Cabinet. I don’t expect the GOP political establishment or GOP voters will either. As far as I’m concerned, the one I like the least is Ben Carson (Fwiw, from here it looks like the libs want to die at the Jeff Sessions Alamo. If your last stand is Rick Perry, it looks to me like you’re on your own there.)

                You. I am having a discussion with *you*. You, OTOH, appear to be having a discussion with a giant blob of liberal blogs you read that you think is somehow ‘Team Lib’. You think the American people are looking at those and going ‘Well, they’re complaining about everyone, none of those objections are important’.

                You’re fundamentally misunderstanding the milieu both of us are working in. There is a Team Lib who is clearly operating in bad faith in the post-election. That affects a lot of things. In fact, it would still affect a lot of things even if the bad faith didn’t apply to you, which it probably does.

                If we want to create a world where we can advance our mutual interest, it’s very very important that libs quit poisoning the well.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Koz
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                says:

                @davidtc
                Pardon me stewardess, I speak Federalist.

                It was Alexis De Toqueville, or perhaps Sarah Palin in a Facebook shart, who noted that America is the land of laws, not men.

                Therefore, it would be entirely inappropriate, intemperate and unwise for the Senate to hold a vote on any of Donald Trump’s appointments, to his Cabinet or SCOTUS, without first consulting with the sovereign power of this nation, which are of course, The People.

                The People, as is their right, have not had a chance to weigh and thoughtfully evaluate these candidates, and express their opinion by means of the next election in 2018.

                It is imperative that in keeping with Constitutional originalism and Burkean modesty that these positions be kept open until after the 2018 elections.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                So your position is that the principle of peaceful transfer of power and respect for the democratic process demands that liberals pretend that Donald Trump won the popular vote, that he wasn’t the beneficiary of electoral sabotage by Russian intelligence and the FBI, and that his cabinet picks and policies are all just great regardless of the substance of the matter?Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                So your position is that the principle of peaceful transfer of power and respect for the democratic process demands that liberals pretend that Donald Trump won the popular vote, that he wasn’t the beneficiary of electoral sabotage by Russian intelligence and the FBI,…

                No, it is my position that in the context of peaceful transfer of power between Administrations those things are bad faith subterfuges because the fact that Donald Trump won the election doesn’t depend on any of them.

                ….and that his cabinet picks and policies are all just great regardless of the substance of the matter?

                Not at all. However, most or all of them should be confirmed anyway since President Trump will be accountable for them.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Koz: No, it is my position that in the context of peaceful transfer of power between Administrations those things are bad faith subterfuges because the fact that Donald Trump won the election doesn’t depend on any of them.

                I have no idea what this means or why it matters. The Comey letter, Trump’s multi-million vote popular vote loss, and the DNC hack all matter because they reduce the legitimacy of Trump’s win and cast doubt upon the security and fairness of our electoral process. if you’re telling me that I’m not allowed to be angry about the deliberate and successful electoral interventions of the FBI and a foreign power, then I’m with @francis below: Go pound sand.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                You can certainly angry about it if you’d like, but you can’t impugn the legitimacy of the election behind it. They’re just not relevant.

                Specifically about Comey and Russia, voters vote. We can, hypothetically and depending on circumstances, audit the eligibility of a voter, and maybe the mechanics of their vote (provisional, absentee, poll location, etc), but never their motivation. The motivations of the voter are irrelevant as far as the legitimacy of the vote.

                This is mind-numbingly obvious for me. So when people talk about “hacking the election” pertaining to Russia, I find it to be either ignorant or deceptive, probably deceptive. If in fact Russia was responsible, it hacked John Podesta’s email account, which is not remotely the same thing.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Let’s entertain a thought experiment. Suppose that in 2012, Mitt Romney was leading in the polls against Barack Obama. Then, ten days before the election, he was indicted for tax fraud with a bill of indictment that more or less resembled the false claims that Harry Reid made at the time. Then, a week after the election, the indictment was dropped and it later came out that the federal prosecutor who brought the indictment knew he lacked probable cause but wanted to prevent Romney from being President. Suppose that as a result, Romney lost the election. Would it be appropriate for Republicans to object to this turn of events and consider the result in some way illegitimate? If so, what’s different? The voters voted, did they not?Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Don Zeko
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                says:

                And Romney’s tax returns were stolen from the IRS database by Chinese hackers, and leaked to the media.

                And Obama were to issue a constant stream of comments about how much he admired the Chinese leadership. And they in turn spoke glowingly about how much they wanted him to win.

                But yeah, I’m sure Fox would be totes cool with this.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Don Zeko
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                says:

                That’s an interesting one. I’d be upset for sure, but it seems to me that the main issue is prosecutorial misconduct against (presumably) the AUSA for putting Romney is false jeopardy.

                Frankly, that’s a bad thing and we should be upset about that election or no election. And in theory John Podesta ought to have access to secure email.

                But the biggest problem with Reid’s lies, indictment or not, is that they were lies. In fact I think Reid even admitted as much, which is another example of libs poisoning the well, which is especially ominous since I’ve read multiple libs (Balloon-Juice-y types) exhort to each other that Reid is a model going forward.

                The difference with Podesta’s email is that they weren’t lies, they were Podesta’s real emails. And that the contents of them were generally known beforehand anyway. It seems dubious to say that we should be upset about the failure of the DNC’s ability to maintain a consistent lie.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
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                says:

                You’re ignoring the Comey letter, I see.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                Not at all, the Comey letter is basically the same as Russia. Voters vote for their own reasons.

                In fact, I’m even less impressed with the complaints about Comey, especially since he was involved with my own final flip towards Trump.

                Whatever’s the problem with Hillary’s lack of security, favor selling, corrupt associations and the rest of it, is not James Comey’s fault. Hillary should have simply been indicted and let the chips fall.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                You can certainly angry about it if you’d like, but you can’t impugn the legitimacy of the election behind it. They’re just not relevant.

                And it’s perhaps important to note that *no elected Democratic official is doing that*, and neither is anyone here.

                The closest you can come is Krugman, but a) The Democrats are not responsibly for Krugman, and b) Krugman is being *very careful* about how he phrases things, and has specifically said that the election *was not stolen*, but it can still be regarded as illegitimate.

                You’re trying to hang something on the entire Democratic political establishment based on a word that some random writer said.Report

              • Avatar Francis in reply to Koz
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                says:

                “this is a context where libs are not at liberty to advance their ideological preferences”

                Go Pound Sand.

                I am as much at liberty to advocate for my ideological preferences today as I was in late October and as I will be in early February.

                Wonder why so many liberals think that the modern Republican party is nothing more than a bunch of overly-wealthy authoritarians? It’s comments like this.

                And since I’m a Californian as well as an American, I can happily advocate for my State to serve as a model for a well-run high-tech high-tax (relatively speaking) high-benefit state.

                Just how is the economy of Kansas these days? Has it experienced the upsurge in population and business starts that Stephen Moore promised?Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Francis
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                says:

                I am as much at liberty to advocate for my ideological preferences today as I was in late October and as I will be in early February.

                No, you’re really not, in the sense of being a legitimate participant in American political culture.

                Specifically, you’re entitled to believe the same things in February that you did in October, but the means and opportunity to meaningfully leverage them in a legitimate way is temporarily gone. And I’m not just talking about the election either, though that was the most important event.

                Furthermore, what conservatives and apolitical Americans fear and anticipate is that in spite of the election and other circumstances, that your commitment to Leftism is stronger than your commitment to America. And that when the opportunity to act on those priorities in conventional ways is frustrated, that you will act destructively against America instead. Ergo, Comey, Russia, blah, blah, yada, yada.

                So from my pov, and that of conservatives, Republicans and apolitical Americans, it’s important to situate you as an American (if you intend to remain one), and insist that you honor your obligations as an American and hold your ideological preferences secondary to that.

                The obligations of Americans to American political culture are very minor and almost all negative. We shouldn’t allow those whose instincts are destructive the means to exercise their destruction.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
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                says:

                Koz:
                Furthermore, what conservatives and apolitical Americans fear and anticipate is that in spite of the election and other circumstances, that your commitment to Leftism is stronger than your commitment to America.And that when the opportunity to act on those priorities in conventional ways is frustrated, that you will act destructively against America instead.Ergo, Comey, Russia, blah, blah, yada, yada.

                You’re using this logic to demand that we not criticize a president-elect that literally invited foreign intelligence services to hack his political opponents and a party that deprived a sitting president of a nominee to the Supreme Court. Fish off. I’m done.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Don Zeko
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                says:

                Not at all. You’re at liberty to criticize Trump if you’d like, and certainly he’s given you plenty of grounds. You’re also at liberty to oppose his policy agenda as President.

                What you’re not at liberty to do is monkey wrench the process of him becoming President and the day-to-day exercise of responsibilities associated with that. Which, let’s note for David who apparently thinks it’s a red herring, is the premise of this read which has 500 or whatever comments by now.Report

              • Avatar Francis in reply to Koz
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                says:

                “your commitment to Leftism is stronger than your commitment to America.”

                The ninth seat on the Supreme Court is still open. Any remaining shreds of moral high ground held by the Republican party after its votes on health care, financial regulation, taxes, the debt ceiling and a few others vanished for a generation with Mitch McConnell’s little stunt.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to Francis
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                says:

                I dunno. I can’t think of anything objectionable (in theory) of any of those. Maybe you could be a little more specific.

                It’s President Obama’s corruptions of the democratic process that’s killing us. I can’t think of a single one of his major accomplishments that didn’t subvert our democratic process except Dodd-Frank and maybe the stimulus package.

                Libs have poisoned this well. Now we all have to drink from it.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Koz
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                says:

                It is the patriotic duty of all American citizens to don a tricorner hat, decorate it with tea bags, grab their gun and go out to water the tree of liberty.

                Or at least stage an armed overthrow of a bird sanctuary, or hold BLM agents at bay with an armed group.
                Or force a shutdown of the federal government. Or default on our bond obligations. Or block judicial appointments.

                Hey, we’re just being Constitutionalists here man, cut us some slack.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                This is not supposed to be difficult or obscure. The Left-libs in America have been attempting to groundlessly discredit the electoral victory of Donald Trump, to the point of trying to prevent him from assuming office, in a plain exercise of bad faith.

                The term ‘groundlessly discredit’ is doing a lot of work there. Perhaps you would like to explain which of those points made there *is* groundless.

                And after that, you can explain how Krugman is trying to keep Trump from taking office, as there was absolutely no indication of that when *I* read the article. (Note that article was written *before the EC vote*, so Krugman could have tried to appeal to them. He did not even do that.)

                And if I recall correctly, you yourself was arguing in favor of preemptively impeaching Donald Trump, in this thread or another recent one.

                Nothing I have said about impeaching Trump has anything to do with the *election* or anything to do with his policies or his personality or anything.

                It is because Trump is going to be in *violation of the foreign emolument clause of the Constitution* the second he takes office. (And the domestic emolument clause, also, but that’s a lesser issue.)

                Well, I exaggerate. Maybe not that second…more like within the hour. As soon as some foreign diplomat *pays their bill* at his hotel, Trump is in violation of the constitution.

                I am in favor of Congress informing Trump of that *before* he takes office, and also threatening to impeach him immediately before he takes office if he does not divest himself of foreign holdings.

                People receiving money from foreign powers *CANNOT BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES*. The president can get *exceptions*, but it’s pretty clear the president is supposed to get one each time, and not some sort of weird blanket exception.

                Nor is Congress just supposed to *ignore* it…if Congress wants to issue some sort of blanket exception allowing Trump to receive money from foreign sources, they have to fucking issue it, in full view of everyone.

                Libs are either upholding that obligation in the most corrosive detrimental way possible, or outright failing at it.

                And by ‘libs’, you mean ‘People you have read the blogs of and do not actually *have* any power to stop Trump.’

                How *dare* the internet fail in its constitutional duty to confirm Trump’s cabinet!

                If we want to create a world where we can advance our mutual interest, it’s very very important that libs quit poisoning the well.

                If *we* want to create that world, perhaps *you* shouldn’t have blocked voting on the nomination of the last Supreme Court Justice, and perhaps *you* shouldn’t have had eight different investigations into made up Benghazi things, and perhaps *you* shouldn’t have spent eight years calling Obama a Muslim Kenyan.

                Oh, sorry, not ‘you’. ‘Team Con’.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                And after that, you can explain how Krugman is trying to keep Trump from taking office, as there was absolutely no indication of that when *I* read the article. (Note that article was written *before the EC vote*, so Krugman could have tried to appeal to them. He did not even do that.)

                My point is that you cannot remain oblivious to the main currents in our political culture as we evaluate things like this. In this case, Krugman is clearly marinating and being marinated in a culture of rejection. In that piece he himself is taking an inch less incendiary line, that the results of the election are illegitimate, even if Trump’s victory won’t be overturned. Of course, that’s an illegitimate pov in its own right. There’s nothing illegitimate about the mechanics of the election, even if his complaints were true. But it’s much worse in the poisoned-well culture that the libs have created, where any setback is an excuse to go for ever more destructive shenanigans.

                Nothing I have said about impeaching Trump has anything to do with the *election* or anything to do with his policies or his personality or anything.

                It is because Trump is going to be in *violation of the foreign emolument clause of the Constitution* the second he takes office. (And the domestic emolument clause, also, but that’s a lesser issue.)

                This may surprise you (or may not) but in a different world I’d agree with you. But in the world we live in, the libs have poisoned that well, specifically regarding the circumstances and application of impeachment. Ie, for certain kinds of executive misconduct, the recourse is impeachment. If there is no impeachment, there is no recourse. And there is no requirement that the legislature has to impeach for anything: it’s a matter of political judgment just like anything else. I think there’s better ways of going about things, but that’s the one we have now. And because of that, I don’t expect anything involving emoluments to go anywhere, unless and until the circumstances are much different than they are now.

                And by ‘libs’, you mean ‘People you have read the blogs of and do not actually *have* any power to stop Trump.’

                You’ve tried that angle a few times now, but I don’t think it holds any water. I’m talking about you, Kazzy, Don, Chip, Morat, Balloon Juice, Krugman, etc,. who are the animating energy behind the Demo political establishment in America so I think the lines of accountability are pretty much legit there.

                If *we* want to create that world, perhaps *you* shouldn’t have blocked voting on the nomination of the last Supreme Court Justice, and perhaps *you* shouldn’t have had eight different investigations into made up Benghazi things, and perhaps *you* shouldn’t have spent eight years calling Obama a Muslim Kenyan.

                Again, the lines of accountability vary a lot between the examples you listed above, and it’s a useful exercise to figure out which is which.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                In that piece he himself is taking an inch less incendiary line, that the results of the election are illegitimate, even if Trump’s victory won’t be overturned.

                At some point, you just turn into a weird satire of yourself.

                Parts of the right wing media have, for years, been literally insisting that Obama is not eligible to be president. Which is not true.

                Now parts of the left wing media are pointing out…Trump was elected with the help of Russia and some very weird behavior from the FBI. That *is* true.

                They are not saying he is not actually president, they are saying that this taints his election.

                At *best*, you have a case for both sides do it, and thus you do not get to complain. (Of course, the left *isn’t lying*, and the right *was*. And the right *was* saying Obama wasn’t really president, and the left *doesn’t* say that about Trump…they just say his election has an asterisk beside it.)

                But in the world we live in, the libs have poisoned that well, specifically regarding the circumstances and application of impeachment.

                What the *hell* are you talking about? I honestly cannot even figure it out.

                There is one political party that has misused impeachment. It wasn’t the Democrats. The Democrats have not even come close to an impeachment since Nixon, and the Republicans were fully on board with that.

                You’ve tried that angle a few times now, but I don’t think it holds any water. I’m talking about you, Kazzy, Don, Chip, Morat, Balloon Juice, Krugman, etc,. who are the animating energy behind the Demo political establishment in America so I think the lines of accountability are pretty much legit there.

                Are you on DRUGS?

                You just listed a bunch of bloggers and a blog, and Krugman. Those of us besides Krugman are not, in any manner whatsoever, the ‘energy’ behind the Demo political establishment, and I can’t even figure out how you *think* that makes any sense.

                Also, I should point out the hilarious problem that, as far as I can see, *none of us here think the Senate shouldn’t confirm people for policy reasons*.

                In fact, I’m somewhat at a lose finding *anyone* here saying people shouldn’t be confirmed except *me* (And I’ve limited them to people clearly *unqualified*), and Don’s obviously satirical statement that we should do what the Republicans did and wait until after the next election to confirm them.

                You weirdly keep insisting that’s what people are talking about here. In reality, in this thread, people are talking about your rather odd ideas that it’s the *Democrats* that have been breaking norms. This isn’t actually a discussion on who the Senate should or should not confirm, no matter how much you want it to be. I’m really the only person who’s even *made a comment about that* (Barring Don’s satire), and I was just leaping *into* the conversation to respond to your weird claims you hadn’t heard any substantial reasons for any objections to the cabinet.

                Krugman isn’t in charge of the Democratic political establishment either, but it is at least theoretically possible he is someone they listen to. Except, uh, *he didn’t say block nominees either*, as far as I know.

                You have ludicrously promoted us to being in charge of the Democratic political establishment, and then asserted that this is proof the Democratic political establishment is taking the position that cabinet appointments should generally be blocked, when *none of us are saying that*. And if *we’re* in charge of the Demo political establishment, I think that conclusively proves the Demo political establishment *doesn’t* want that. Q.E.D.

                And while Balloon Juice has taken a position it’s a good idea to slow the nominations *until they turn over their financial data* (Which is not the same thing as opposing them), I am sad to inform you, that Balloon Juice has very little constitutional power in this country, and their role in Congress is almost entirely ceremonial.

                Again, the lines of accountability vary a lot between the examples you listed above, and it’s a useful exercise to figure out which is which.

                I don’t think that holds any water. I’m talking about you, the animating energy behind the Repub political establishment in America.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                Parts of the right wing media have, for years, been literally insisting that Obama is not eligible to be president. Which is not true.

                Which parts are they? I haven’t seen that, and I’ve read a decent amount of right wing media.

                What the *hell* are you talking about? I honestly cannot even figure it out.

                Well then you should dial down the invective and read more carefully, because it doesn’t look that complicated to me.

                It originates in the partisan defense of President Clinton against his removal from office. But the worst of it is President Obama and lib strategists and their cynical attempts to goad the Republicans into starting impeachment proceedings against him with the intention of gaining political advantage in a backlash.

                The Republicans didn’t take that particular bait but it’s left its mark anyway. Specifically, for situations just like this. For the emoluments clause and other situations, the recourse to real or prospective violations is impeachment. If there’s no impeachment, there’s no recourse. The Republicans are simply playing (and winning) the game with the rules the libs made.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
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                says:

                Koz: It originates in the partisan defense of President Clinton against his removal from office.But the worst of it is President Obama and lib strategists and their cynical attempts to goad the Republicans into starting impeachment proceedings against him with the intention of gaining political advantage in a backlash.

                Oh man, that’s a new one to me. Thanks for the laugh, dude. It’s been a rough week and I needed it.Report

              • Avatar Gaelen in reply to Koz
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                says:

                Which parts are they? I haven’t seen that, and I’ve read a decent amount of right wing media.

                Try the media appearances of our president elect.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Koz
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                says:

                But the worst of it is President Obama and lib strategists and their cynical attempts to goad the Republicans into starting impeachment proceedings against him

                What? Seriously, I read right-wing source to try to keep up, but I’ve never heard this one before. I mean, I’ve heard that Bill Ayers wrote “Dreams From My Father”, I’ve heard that Obama’s mother only liked black men because she was a Communist, I’ve heard that Obama made nice to Iran because he’s a Shiite, but this one is brand-new.Report

              • Avatar Gaelen in reply to Mike Schilling
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                says:

                We can only thank god Congressional Republicans are so reasonable!Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                Which parts are they? I haven’t seen that, and I’ve read a decent amount of right wing media.

                Wow, you somehow literally do not know about Birtherism.

                And yet you’re asking people to interact with you on a political blog.

                Weird.

                It originates in the partisan defense of President Clinton against his removal from office.

                Oh, I see. It was a partisan *defense*. Not a partisan *attack*.

                You know, if your threshold for impeachment is basically *any crime*, if you think perjury is worth impeaching over (It’s something that is not even normally prosecuted, and there are some real questions if Clinton’s testimony even *reached* the threshold for perjury.), I would like to hear your opinions on various behaviors of recent *Republican* administrations.

                Specifically, how do you feel about the president telling people to torture, in direct violation of the law? How do you feel about the president authorizing money to the Contras, in direct violation of the law?

                You’re setting a *really low* bar here. A bar that basically every Republican president elected (I’ll give you Ford.) since Eisenhower broke. (Bush Senior broke it while VP as part of Iran-Contra.)

                A bar that exactly one Democrat has broke.

                And before you talk about *my* suggestion and the bar I’m setting…first, emoluments is something specifically mentioned in the constitution, and is thus (Along with treason) presumably more important than various random crimes. Second, the entire point of what I proposed is that Congress has to set a standard *in advance* and give Trump time to *not do it*. That Congress needs to say ‘Your current situation is not acceptable in a president, and *you must change it* before becoming president, or we will have to remove you.’.

                Admittedly, time for him to do that is running out, and whether or not Trump can do it in time *now* is questionable…but I actually started suggesting this back in early December. If someone wants to assert that Trump should be given more time, I’d be content with Congress demanding *completely open* books for the entire Trump Organization for a limited amount of time, or demanding that he turn over all profits to them, or some other temporary situation, until Trump can finish divesting.

                But *right now*, no one except some liberal writers even seem to be *talking* about the fact that the president is not allowed to receive money from foreign governments(1) without Congressional approval….and Congress *usually* doesn’t approve that anyway. (And I don’t think they’ve ever approved a straight-up cash payment.)

                So on one hand, we have a Republican Congress hounding a president with investigation after investigation, and eventually getting him to lie under oath, and attempting to remove him from office for that.

                On the other hand, we have Congress *completely ignore* actual real crimes being committed. Torture is a pretty serious crime, and Iran-Contra violated a law *specifically put in place to constraint the executive branch from doing exactly what it did*, which seems like a fact that should be somewhat important in figuring out if a president is out of control and needs to be removed.

                And the current president-elect is ready to set foot in office and *immediately* violate the constitution, in a way that’s not really a matter of dispute, it’s just that the only people who can do anything about it (Our Congress) are not bothering to talk about it.

                Yeah, it’s the *Democrats* who are using impeachment as a political tool.

                But the worst of it is President Obama and lib strategists and their cynical attempts to goad the Republicans into starting impeachment proceedings against him with the intention of gaining political advantage in a backlash.

                So you *are* on drugs.

                Just for the record, could you explain what these attempts *were*?

                Oh, oh, I know. Obamacare, right? The thing you seem to think was passed in some sort of illegitimate manner, despite you never quite being able to explain exactly how that is.

                I wonder what the difference is between vaguely asserting a *president* is illegitimate, and vaguely asserting a *bill* is illegitimate.

                1) Nor is anyone talking about how he can’t receive them from domestic sources, *period*, end of story, Congress can’t even vote to approve that. He cannot receive gifts from state or local governments. Which means that *all his state and local tax breaks* have to be canceled. No one is even bothering to talk about this, either, and I suspect people are going to *really* surprised when New York City, pissed at the amount of money they’re spending on protecting him, along with his completely fuckery of their traffic and air traffic if he keeps commuting, yank those away the moment he takes office, citing the Constitution.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                Wow, you somehow literally do not know about Birtherism.

                I understand birtherism well enough, I think, but Orly Taitz and pre-Presidential candidate Donald Trump are not right-wing media. I don’t think there’s very much there (maybe Glenn Beck).Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                Just for the record, could you explain what these attempts *were*?

                Sure. Most recently, and most important, the Demo’s found themselves in a situation where they were losing in the runup to the 2014 elections, so one of their strategems was to intentionally fail at or misrepresent the duties of the Presidency thereby provoking the Republicans into starting impeachment proceedings against President Obama, with the intention of politically profiting from the expected backlash.

                dailycaller.com/2014/05/11/gaslighting-the-gops/
                dailycaller.com/2014/06/18/gaslighting-the-gops-part-2/
                washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/05/09/is-a-drive-to-impeach-barack-obama-on-its-way/

                As it happens, the Republicans didn’t take that bait. Instead of maneuvering toward impeachment, they filed lawsuits instead, at least one of which they won (immigration). And coincidentally or not, they also won the 2014 election.

                But for this context, the upshot is how this affects the propriety of executive branch governance. Specifically, the Demo’s created a norm wherein the President is constrained only by what he can get away with. Don’t like it? Impeach me, and watch your political strength go down the drain.

                So by all means, have Steny Hoyer or somebody file impeachment charges in the House. Be sure to use the word “emoluments” a lot. Paul Ryan can just bury it miles deep in committee, while Bill O’Reilly and Hugh Hewitt can just go “LOL! Dems” and the Republicans can go their merry way banning unmarried women’s birth control or disparate impact voting rights lawsuits or whatever it is you’re afraid of.

                Oh, oh, I know. Obamacare, right? The thing you seem to think was passed in some sort of illegitimate manner, despite you never quite being able to explain exactly how that is.

                I wonder what the difference is between vaguely asserting a *president* is illegitimate, and vaguely asserting a *bill* is illegitimate.

                Sure. This is actually fairly important. For me at least, I never asserted that President Obama was an illegitimate President. There was several things that he did as President that were illegitimate actions.

                The most important of which was his leadership of the process to enact Obamacare. The reason that was illegitimate was that they were clearly rejected by the American people at the time (and since). That was the Rubicon singalling the start of all his illegitimate actions

                Ie, Obamacare wasn’t the only one. There was also the Iran deal, climate change, and immigration policies, all of which bypassed Congress altogether. Furthermore, for Iran and climate change, there wasn’t just a majority of Congress opposed, it was a bipartisan majority. If President Obama had submitted his agreements to the Senate as proposed treaties, the Iran deal would have gotten maybe 40 votes, and climate change Paris thing even fewer, as there were a significant number of Democrats opposed to both.

                Finally, you ought to dial down the crap about trolling, drugs, ***’s, ZOMG, and the rest of it, to actually pay attention for a minute and maybe learn something.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                Linking to Mickey Kaus explains a lot, actually.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                First, everyone need to be aware that the Daily Caller (and Maureen Dowd, which is weird because she literally describes the movie it is from) have no idea what ‘gaslighting’ actually means. Attempting to suggest you’re guilty of something in an attempt to get people to attack you, then proving them wrong, is not what ‘gaslighting’ is. Neither is deliberately humilating someone in a way everyone else will think is trivial and seeing if they will overreact.

                Gaslighting is, instead, continually altering the reality of someone so that they (And everyone else) believe their own memory and, eventually, sense of reality, is unreliable.

                ‘Gaslighting’ is not attempting to make people make dumbass or emotional moves.

                Anyway, incorrect terms aside, I want everyone to understand that Koz here is suggesting that the *Democrats* made up the Benghazi nonsense of the Republicans.

                His first evidence of that is…one email, that supposedly ‘seems to confirm’ their theories about Benghazi attack were true.

                This is it. This is how the Democrats are *misusing* impeachment. The Democrat have, and let me explain this carefully, abusing
                impeachment by: Carefully *framing themselves* for what the Republicans think happened with Benghazi, and expecting Republicans to take the bait.

                Here’s the fun problem with that *lunacy*, because let me rephrase that theory:

                The Democrats are carefully *framing themselves* for what the Republicans think happened with Benghazi, and expecting Republicans to take the bait, *during the time that Benghazi was happening*.

                They somehow foresaw there would be years of investigations, so said, basically ‘You know what, I bet we can get the Republicans to investigate this for *years*, so let’s do everything one way, but *put in a few memos* some lies.’

                Or something like that. Seriously, man, this theory *literally doesn’t make sense*. It cannot possible make sense. The cited email email could, indeed, prove the Democrats were lying about Benghazi. Perhaps they even *actually did something wrong*. You want to argue that, go ahead.

                But what it can’t prove is that they are somehow trying to trick *Republicans in the future* to continue their investivations over this.

                Seriously, man, ARE YOU ON DRUGS? Do you understand how *time* works? Did you actually *read* this nonsense?

                And, to continue, Koz’s *second* evidence of that is that Obama meeting with DREAMers in the White House, and that this was an attempt to drive Congressial Republicans crazy and have him impeached. *That* idea…reflects really really poorly on Congressional Republicans, that they would even possible consider that.

                ‘Obama did somethign that makes Republican mad, thus he was *deliberately courting impeachment*.’

                Basically, Koz is trying to blame the Obama administration for Republicans yelling, for years, about impeaching him.

                The problem is, his evidence is a) first something that requires time travel, and b) then something that isn’t vaguely the level of an impeachable offense, and, perhaps most importantly, c) things that happened at the end of 2014, which, uh, makes it rather hard to explain the *first* five years of calls for impeachment.

                But, wait, wait, we’ve spent too much time dealing with *this* nonsense and wandered off the original question:

                How, exactly, does this mean that *Obama* has made impeachment a political tool, and thus is at fault for Republicans being unwilling to impeach Trump?

                While the *first* ‘gaslighting’ article is nonsense clearly impossible according to the laws of physics as we know it, let’s pretend the second is true. Let’s pretend that Obama deliberately met with some people in order to provoke the GOP into calling (yet again) for his impeachment. Totally on purpose, that was the intended outcome.

                That isn’t *Obama* making impeachment into a political tool. That’s Obama, knowing that *Republicans had stupidly been making cries for impeachment for five eyars that were seen as political*, tricking *Republicans* into making more cries.

                That’s not on Obama, man. Republicans started using cries for impeachment as political tool, they continued it as political tool, and, according to you, were *once* duped into doing it by Obama, who saw their political tool was extremely stupid and counterproductive.

                That’s not Obama making it a political tool. That *Republicans*. Obama just (according to this theory) did some judo to turn their political tool back on them.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                The most important of which was his leadership of the process to enact Obamacare. The reason that was illegitimate was that they were clearly rejected by the American people at the time (and since). That was the Rubicon singalling the start of all his illegitimate actions

                It’s interesting that you seem to have all sorts of worries about people calling an *election* illegitimate, but somehow calling a duly-voted on a piece of legislation is fine.

                If the fact the vast majority of people (So you claim) doesn’t like it makes it ‘illegitimate’, despite it being enacted correctly following the Constitutional process…how is Trump legitimate, exactly?

                There was also the Iran deal, climate change, and immigration policies, all of which bypassed Congress altogether.

                *sounds bullshit alarm*

                The president has the ability to sign treaties with other nations. The Senate has the ability to ratify treaties *if they need to be*. The only treaties that *need to be* ratified are ones that *change US law*.

                The climate change thing did not do that. Literally the only thing it did was require reporting from the EPA! That’s it. The EPA has to write up some CO2 targets, and issue reports as to how well they are being met. That’s all the treaty says. The president is, of course, in charge of the EPA, and can direct them to issue reports at his will. (Barring Congress saying otherwise.)

                Likewise, the Iran sanctions were *executive* sanctions, imposed by the State Department under Jimmy Carter. He can undo them. He’s always had that power. (There are *laws*, passed by Congress, punishing US citizens who *break* the sanctions, but the sanction are a different thing than punishment for breaking them. Those laws are still in effect, there just aren’t any sanctions they apply to.)

                Both those things are *solely Executive interations with other countries*, and so asserting that Obama has exceeded his authority is complete nonsense. That is *exactly* the place where the president has near total authority, in how the US Executive interacts with other countries!

                Now, there are *ways* for Congress to limit how the president can interact with other countries, using the power of the purse, and if the president breaks those he should be impeached. (*cough*Iran-Contra*cough*). If Congress wants to bar the EPA from issuing those reports, it can. If Congress wants to pass a law making it illegal for American companies to do business in Iran *even without* the Executive branch sanctions, it can.

                Congress has not chosen to do either of those. And *barring Congress making any sort of limits*, the president can basically do whatever they want in how the Executive branch of this country interacts with other countries.

                To assert otherwise is just partisan nonsense, and has always been so. It’s claiming the executive branch has no powers at all, and any power it has is an abuse of power.

                This is insane. If the executive branch wishes *to pledge the executive branch will do something* to another country, it can.

                —-

                Nooooooow….I will admit that the immigration thing *is* pushing boundaries. Telling the government not to enforce a specific law is, in a way, a bit dubious.

                Except…that’s not actually what’s happening. Immigration law isn’t exactly what people think. People in this country illegally are not generally charged with a crime (To quote the Supreme Court in ARIZONA ET AL. v. UNITED STATES ‘As a general rule, it is not a crime for a removable alien to remain in the United States.’), and the president has always had the power to defer deportations of anyone he wants to, or create any system to prioritize the order.

                In fact, the president even is granted the power *by law* to issue work permits to *illegal immigrants*. This is a law, 8 U.S.C. 1324a(h)(3). It’s weird to try to argue the president doesn’t have the power to not deport people while *that* law exists. Why would he have the power to issue a work permit for someone he’s *required* to deport?Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                Look, you’re fundamentally misunderstanding the frame of reference here, to the point where you’re wrong, but even when you’re right you’re still wrong.

                The point isn’t to squint and to say that if you look at it from exactly this way, then what Obama did was ok. That’s probably wrong on the particulars, but the main thing is that it ignores the pov of apolitical or moderately political Americans who are removed further and further away from having any meaningful input on governance, or even the ability to observe it for that matter.

                I’ll get back to this later but I also want to go into the weeds and address a few specific things.

                It’s interesting that you seem to have all sorts of worries about people calling an *election* illegitimate, but somehow calling a duly-voted on a piece of legislation is fine.

                If the fact the vast majority of people (So you claim) doesn’t like it makes it ‘illegitimate’, despite it being enacted correctly following the Constitutional process…how is Trump legitimate, exactly?

                Sigh….we have to have periodic elections and change of Administration. We didn’t have to have health care reform. More important than that, probably, the debate over the Obamacare bills wasn’t very close among the American people. Obama/Pelosi/Ezra Klein were gettintg their ass handed to them for the better part of a year, and still they went through with it.

                If Clinton wins the popular vote by 2% and loses the election, well them’s the breaks. But if she wins the popular vote by 20% and still loses, that’s a much different animal, and asks much more fundamental questions about whether United States can or ought to remain one country.

                The president has the ability to sign treaties with other nations. The Senate has the ability to ratify treaties *if they need to be*. The only treaties that *need to be* ratified are ones that *change US law

                *.

                No no no. Constitutionally, all treaties must be submitted and approved by the Senate by a two-thirds vote. There are such things as executive agreements, which the President can enter on behalf of the United States.

                Agreements that are intended to represent an ongoing commitment of the United States (as opposed to the policy of one Administration) should be submitted to the Senate. President Obama could have submitted his Agreements to the Senate except that he knew very well that they would be repudiated there (by a decent number of Democrats as well).

                The same with Iran, where for example, IIRC the US recognized Iran’s “right to enrich” nuclear material which was a de facto repudiation of the Nonproliferation Treaty (ie, a real one, with Senatorial approval).

                As far as immigration goes, the President’s DACA and DAPA gambits have been repudiated by the courts, with the SCOTUS upholding the Fifth Appellate Circuit on a 4-4 tie. Ie, the courts sided with the states against the Obama Administration over immigration policy, which gives you some idea of how egregious that policy was. So it wasn’t just a matter of deciding not to deport somebody.

                That’s to say, the Administration argued that its Executive Orders didn’t change anybody’s immigration status, but it created a “lawful presence” for millions of illegal immigrants, that depending on this or that gave them eligibility for drivers’ licenses, Medicare, unemployment insurance, etc. We shouldn’t be surprised that the judiciary didn’t by it.

                But these are details. Like I wrote before, even if you were right, you’re still wrong. IIRC almost all of President Obama’s policy initiatives (and all of them after Obamacare) bypassed Congress.

                I remember talking with a a friend of mine (and another friend I met through him) about some drama related to their homeowner’s association.

                One of the tenants or condo owners was hosing off dog waste from his balcony onto the common area below. In fact, the common area was condo complex pool/jacuzzi/lounge area. Apparently, this person thought that was kosher because it wasn’t banned in the HOA bylaws. Of course he was full of shit. Even if that particular offense wasn’t mentioned specifically, there were any number of provisions that could used to cover it.

                But then the friend of a friend said something: it doesn’t make any difference anyway. Even if, by some miracle, spraying the dog waste into the pool was ok according to the HOA, you’d still be a pariah if you did that. More importantly, people would find ways to make that behavior unacceptable even if they didn’t exist before.

                That brings us to President Obama and the candidacy of Hillary Clinton. If the policy initiatives go through Congress with the ping-pong among the members of Congress and various personages of the Administration. people outside Washington get to see their point view being represented and have some idea of who they’re rooting for and why.

                Obama’s idea, which is basically that Congress is annoying so I have license to ignore them, just doesn’t fly in America.

                Mrs. Clinton, who respresented a continuation of the disdain for popular opinion from the prior Administration but less likeable than Mr Obama, ended up being the victim of that. Sorry I’m not sorry.

                It’s up to you to quit worming your way into advancing your ideological football. The American people may disagree with you a little bit about this or that, but most importantly they don’t trust you. It’s time for you to start paying off your negative balance of trust. Quit rationalizing how you’re going to evade your obligations and starting figuring out how you’re going to honor them.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                I feel like it’s worth addressing this independently:

                The same with Iran, where for example, IIRC the US recognized Iran’s “right to enrich” nuclear material which was a de facto repudiation of the Nonproliferation Treaty (ie, a real one, with Senatorial approval).

                You are on absolutely no factual ground here.

                The Nonproliferation Treaty gives countries the right to enrich nuclear material as long as they pledge they are not creating bombs and agree to inspections by the IAEA. That’s it.

                The only ‘punishment’ under the Nonproliferation Treaty for a country *not* following it is that other countries that signed it will not (or are not supposed to) provide nuclear material to them. That it. As we do not appear to be selling Iran any nuclear material (In fact, Obama’s deal has them *getting rid* of nuclear material.), there is no possible way Obama’s agreement could subvert the Nonproliferation Treaty.

                Meanwhile, our *sanctions* are nothing to do with the Nonproliferation Treaty. At all. The Nonproliferation Treaty is not mentioned in the law about sanctions.

                The *actual law* about sanctions, and one thinks you would have looked it up at some point in time before decided that the President violated a treaty, just a law. Moreover, it’s a law that *explicitly allows the president to remove sanctions unilaterally*.

                https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-110/pdf/STATUTE-110-Pg1541.pdf

                SEC. 8. TERMINATION OF SANCTIONS.
                (a) IRAN.—^The requirement under section 5(a) to impose sanctions shall no longer have force or effect with respect to Iran if the President determines and certifies to the appropriate congressional committees that Iran—
                (1) has ceased its efforts to design, develop, manufacture, or acquire—
                (A) a nuclear explosive device or related materials and technology;
                (B) chemical and biological weapons; and
                (C) ballistic missiles and ballistic missile launch technology;
                and
                (2) has been removed from the list of countries the governments of which have been determined, for purposes of section 6(j) of the Export Administration Act of 1979, to have repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism.

                Note that #2 there is talking about a list completely under presidential control, and I presume he removed Iran from it.

                Every concept you have stated about the Iran agreement, everything you are pretending it’s outrageous for Obama to do…he was *literally empowered by the law creating the sanctions* to do. By himself. He does not have to get anything authorized by Congress. (He does, however, have to *tell* Congress he’s doing it, and they obviously could pass a law forbidding it…which he did, and their law failed.)Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
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                says:

                We didn’t have to have health care reform.

                We had a president elected on a campaign platform of providing it. Actually, even *the Republican* ran on a platform of reforming health care.

                More important than that, probably, the debate over the Obamacare bills wasn’t very close among the American people.

                You are, factually, just incorrect. The net approval of the ACA falls, and has consistently fell, about 10 points short on approval. But what is *also* consistent is about that about 20% of the people that oppose the law because it’s not liberal enough.

                http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/27/obamacare-polls-affordable-care-act-health-care-reform_n_1380986.html

                Which is why when you ask the question ‘repeal, leave alone, or expand’, you get results closer to 38%/20%/33%.

                This is…well known, and dishonest to argue over.

                You can read those polls and, factually, stated that a majority of people were been in favor of the ACA *or a most liberal reform*. Or, instead, you can say a majority of people are in favor of *either* repealing it or making it more liberal, Or you can say a majority are in favor of repealing it or keeping it the same. You group two together, and you can phrase the other question so it loses.

                But the *honest* way to look at it is that there is three positions, and none of them had a majority, and only *one* really doesn’t like the fact the ACA passed, if you actually poll on *that*.

                The majority of Americans, if you asked them outright immediately after it passed ‘Would you rather the ACA have passed or no law at all’, say *yes*.

                Moreover…this is a totally bullshit bar to start with. Laws in the US have never required the majority of people to like them! Laws, in this country, basically get passed because a majority of the majority party in Congress likes them.

                It is perfectly valid to point out that passing a law that is *actual* unpopular (As opposed to the ACA) is a bad idea and will cause people to vote against the party that does it. It is even possible to argue this is what happened! Go ahead! The Democrats lost because of the unpopularity of the ACA! Feel free to say that! (And I’m not sure why who has an absolute majority matters there. If only 20% of people don’t like a law, and 10% of those were of the party that passed it, that party is sorta screwed.)

                But *that* isn’t what you’re arguing. You’re arguing this makes the law illegitimate.

                Now, in politics, it is entirely possible to argue ‘illegitimate’ down to ‘anything the majority of people does not like’. Fair enough. You want to argue that this nation should operate by direct democracy, well, that’s not how it does operate, but it’s an understandable position to take. (You are going to have to do a *lot* of explaining about what the *Republicans* are promising to do, though.)

                But it’s pretty insane to do that *at literally the same time* you are complaining about people arguing Trump is illegitimate.

                If Clinton wins the popular vote by 2% and loses the election, well them’s the breaks. But if she wins the popular vote by 20% and still loses, that’s a much different animal, and asks much more fundamental questions about whether United States can or ought to remain one country.

                And if she lost (Or it least it appears to have altered things) thanks to two entities (Russia and the FBI) unprecedented meddling in an election, do people not, to quote you: find ways to make that behavior unacceptable even if they didn’t exist before.

                Oh, look. People are doing the same thing to a president that you did to a law.

                And one of those two things, health care reform, is a policy that a president *ran on a platform of*, and was elected to do so, and did it in a way that was somewhat unpopular. You can whine and complain about how unpopular it was at the time, but the procedure to pass the ACA was *perfectly normal*. I mean, there is absolutely nothing I can see that’s even slightly dubious…we even know that the part standing is *constitutional*. (1)

                The other thing was…a president that was elected with outside interference. A way that actually included actual illegal behavior (hacking) and behavior that violated Federal rules (Comey talking about investigations that close to an election). The election *itself* appears legal, but, again, *as you said*, people will still complain about it.

                And, on top of that, we’ve ended up with a president that is, honestly, completely unacceptable. If we had ended up with Romney or McCain, that would be one thing. Hell, people were not happy with Bush or an election that was decided along partisan lines of the Supreme Court, but he at least was a *reasonable* person to be president, and we could live with him.

                But now, instead, we have *Trump*. Someone with actual narcissistic personality disorder, who is showing absolutely no signs he even takes the office seriously. Jesus Fucking Christ. We are at the point where it is possible to argue that the Russians have *deliberately sabotaged* the county for the next four years.

                1) And the part of the ACA that got shot down was shot down for doing something the Federal government had done plenty of times in the past, so, even if you agree with the Supremes, I think it’s understandable no one *thought* that was unconstitutional.

                No no no. Constitutionally, all treaties must be submitted and approved by the Senate by a two-thirds vote. There are such things as executive agreements, which the President can enter on behalf of the United States.

                No. Constitutionally, *for a treaty to be ratified*, it must be submitted and approved by the Senate by a two-thirds vote.

                Treaties can also just be *agreed to*, without signing. The president can, in fact, *agree to* almost anything. I could send the president a request asking the FBI to wear silly hats, and he can *agree to* that.

                You seem agree with this, but are arguing some technicality that these are called something different than a treaty. No, they really aren’t. There is a difference in them under the law, one of them is right up next to the constitution, and one of them is basically an executive order and can be overturned at any time, but they are both, indeed, ‘treaties’.

                For example, the Protocol I of the Geneva Convention is a *treaty*, created in 1977 to clarify Geneva. It is a treaty we have not ratified, and thus it is not part of US law, but it was *signed* by Carter in 1977. It didn’t magically turn into something besides a treaty because we haven’t ratified it yet.

                Agreements that are intended to represent an ongoing commitment of the United States (as opposed to the policy of one Administration) should be submitted to the Senate.

                *All* agreements are _intended_ to represent an ongoing commitment.

                If Trump does not like them, he is free to declare he is not going to follow them.

                As far as immigration goes, the President’s DACA and DAPA gambits have been repudiated by the courts, with the SCOTUS upholding the Fifth Appellate Circuit on a 4-4 tie.

                And…wrong.

                SCOTUS refused to do anything about the *preliminary injunction* against the program. So the program is temporarily on hold until the case is resolved. But the *case itself* and the constitutionality of the program has not been decided. (And probably never will be, considering that Trump will probably just agree to stop the programs.)Report

              • Avatar Stillwater in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                We didn’t have to have health care reform.

                Exactly! Just like the French didn’t need to start a war with Germany in 1914.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                You are, factually, just incorrect. The net approval of the ACA falls, and has consistently fell, about 10 points short on approval. But what is *also* consistent is about that about 20% of the people that oppose the law because it’s not liberal enough.

                This is more irrelevant coulda shoulda. There’s lots of reasons why people who may have wanted HCR collectivization in general but still didn’t support the Obamacare bills. But we know for sure that they didn’t.

                The majority of Americans, if you asked them outright immediately after it passed ‘Would you rather the ACA have passed or no law at all’, say *yes*.

                And this is the most falsifiable statement in the recent history of polling science. RealClearPolitics and other media outlets have aggregated hundreds of polls across several polling organizations and that simply doesn’t add up.

                And more importantly, it was known not to add up at the time. Before passage, and afterward. IIRC, they started drafting and having hearings in Apr of 2009 and President Obama signed the bill in Feb 2010. Before passage, there were four or so separate iterations of trying to drum up enough support in more or less conventional ways: spring, August recess/town halls, the motions to proceed, the special election of Scott Brown and its aftermath. None of them worked.

                This very important to emphasize in the context of things like your last comment. All the bullshit, the rationalizations, the evasions, the Administration and the HCR netroots advocates tried them all at the time.

                “This is just Romneycare/Heritage Foundation white paper.”

                “A third of the people who oppose this want something more liberal”

                “This was part of the campaign”

                They desperately tried to pull move poll numbers for this in a context where President Obama was still popular, and couldn’t. Finally, they said fuck it, and passed it anyway (in the worst way possible because they couldn’t amend their Senate bill any further because Scott Brown replace Edward Kennedy in the Senate).

                And then once they did that, they couldn’t run away from it fast enough. The provisions didn’t take place right away. Of the campaign ads in 2010 that mentioned Obamacare, something like 85% were opposed.

                And after that, I can’t think of another significant initiative from President Obama that successfully went through Congress.

                Which is the important part anyway. Like I wrote before, you’re wrong. But even if you were right, you’re still wrong.

                The American people don’t trust that their interests are being upheld by the Obama Administration, and they don’t like Hillary Clinton. And they had a very effective means to change that state of affairs.

                And, on top of that, we’ve ended up with a president that is, honestly, completely unacceptable.

                Unacceptable to who, kemosabe? If you didn’t want President Trump you should have put Willard in office.

                It’s perfectly acceptable to me if Donald Trump become President and brings the hammer down on the libs. What is our common interest as Americans in the age of Trump? I only have part of an answer myself. I have actually asked a couple of the libs here, and they didn’t answer. It’s a hard question to be honest.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                And Trump was about 1% short of actually being the preference of a plurality of voters.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Koz
                Ignored
                says:

                And this is the most falsifiable statement in the recent history of polling science. RealClearPolitics and other media outlets have aggregated hundreds of polls across several polling organizations and that simply doesn’t add up.

                49% thought it was a good thing that it passed, 40% thought it was a bad thing.

                [Edit: Somehow missed putting the link: http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/slim-margin-americans-support-healthcare-bill-passage.aspx ]

                And this was *immediately after* the ACA passed.

                So, hey, look, I guess you’re right in that it’s not a *majority*. But it’s a plurality.

                And while there may be lots of aggregations, I point out that your claim is that it was illegitimate *because it passed without popular support*. It doesn’t matter if people soured on it *after* it passed.

                Also, I notice you didn’t address my points that you still haven’t come up with some coherent reason it’s okay for you to call the ACA illegitimate because it didn’t have majority support, but it’s horrifying and a total violation of democratic norms to call Trump’s election illegitimate, when he *certainly* didn’t have majority support. We actually had an *official vote* on Trump, we don’t have to rely on polls.

                Especially since the election of the president is supposed to, in concept, be a mostly democratic direct vote (Although it is not technically that, as we all know, thanks to archaic rules that no one likes until it makes their guy win) for *picking* a representative of Americans, whereas that’s not how legislation has *ever* worked, even in concept. (Legislation is, instead, decided by a majority of representatives we have previously elected.)

                You can’t just invent some imaginary norm where the American people somehow are in charge of approving legislation. That is not, and has never been, the norm. It might be *better* than what we have,but it is not what we have.

                You seem to think this hinges entirely on how popular the ACA was. But a bill being *slightly unpopular* with the majority of Americans when passed doesn’t make it ‘illegitimate’ anyway, unless you have defined ‘illegitimate’ down to just mean ‘unpopular’. (And guess what that says about the President-Elect.)

                Oh, and the Republicans in Congress are *literally attempting to pass majority-unpopular legislation right now*.

                So here’s another a question: If the Republicans pass a bill *repealing* Obamacare, are you going to call *that* illegitimate? Because *the American people have clearly spoken and do not not want that*. A full repeal has only *25%* support, 75% say either don’t repeal, or repeal only with a full replacement put in place at the same time.

                Right now, the Republicans are doing *exactly* the sort of thing you just spent pages insisting was illegitimate when the Democrats did it: Trying to pass a *deeply* unpopular (Way more unpopular than the ACA ever was) bill over the objection of the majority of Americans.

                I don’t think that’s ‘illegitimate’. But according to your logic, *you should*.

                Of course, I also don’t think it *is* reasonable to call the election of Trump illegitimate because he didn’t win the majority vote. And I also don’t think anyone’s doing it.

                I think it is perhaps reasonable to call the election illegitimate because of *unprecedented outside interference*, which is what various people are doing. I wouldn’t use the word illegitimate myself, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable *to* say.

                But you don’t get to call the ACA illegitimate because of lack of majority support, and then act outraged that a president-elect elected without majority support is called illegitimate! Oh noes! And then also ignore the fact that the Republican Congress is trying to currently pass legislation without majority support.

                The American people don’t trust that their interests are being upheld by the Obama Administration, and they don’t like Hillary Clinton. And they had a very effective means to change that state of affairs.

                And none of that is even *slightly relevant* to the fact you think it’s reasonable to call a duly passed law ‘illegitimate’, whereas calling a duly-elected president illegitimate is *completely outside all bounds and a sign that Democrats are totally out of control*.

                I think some readers have perhaps lost sight of why I’m talking about this. So I will quote Koz from back when this started:

                My point is that you cannot remain oblivious to the main currents in our political culture as we evaluate things like this. In this case, Krugman is clearly marinating and being marinated in a culture of rejection. In that piece he himself is taking an inch less incendiary line, that the results of the election are illegitimate, even if Trump’s victory won’t be overturned. Of course, that’s an illegitimate pov in its own right. There’s nothing illegitimate about the mechanics of the election, even if his complaints were true. But it’s much worse in the poisoned-well culture that the libs have created, where any setback is an excuse to go for ever more destructive shenanigans.

                And I pointed out he, personally, had been calling the ACA illegitimate *for weeks*. Repeatedly. I had called him out on this, even before the election and anyone using the word illegitimate in reference to Trump! He has been using the *exact word* he seems to think is wrong for Democrats to use and part of their ‘culture of rejection’. But he had taken something that followed every political rule, and called it illegitimate, for weeks, solely justified by ‘it was unpopular’!

                He seems to have absolutely no concept of the hypocrisy of that.

                And I haven’t even *mentioned* the ‘any setback is an excuse to go for ever more destructive shenanigans’ nonsense. You mean, like…how the Republicans shut down the government and threatened to default on the debt unless the ACA was repealed, almost causing a constitutional crisis when the President would be force to decide between following the 14th amendment or funding laws? Or how the Democrats in the House threatened to refuse to accept the EC votes from Trump states, almost causing a constitutional crisis when…oh, wait, the Democrats didn’t threaten to do that.

                It’s the Republicans in office that behave like absurd loons when they lose a vote. The Democrats in office behave just fine. (Which is why, as evidence of all this, Koz is forced to run around pointing to Krugman using a bad word, instead of what the Democrats are promising to do, which is basically just hold confirmation hearings.)Report

              • Avatar Kazzy in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                Don’t bother, @davidtc . Koz will shift the goalposts and change the rules mid-conversation to suit the conclusion he’s already drawn.Report

              • Avatar D-bol Dave in reply to Kazzy
                Ignored
                says:

                Kazzy:
                Don’t bother, @DavidTC .Koz will shift the goalposts and change the rules mid-conversation to suit the conclusion he’s already drawn.

                @kazzy

                The political equivalent of my favorite kind of CrossFitter.

                To be fair, if the goalposts are heavy and he’s actually doing the work moving them, let’s cut him some slack.Report

              • Avatar Koz in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                You can’t just invent some imaginary norm where the American people somehow are in charge of approving legislation. That is not, and has never been, the norm. It might be *better* than what we have,but it is not what we have.

                This is absolutely true. The “unpopularity” of Obamacare is only part of the issue. Because of the prominence of Obamacare, the people who opposed it knew themselves to be a majority and mobilized against it. This made Obamacare much different that other official acts of Washington, legislative or otherwise. The government can and does do many unpopular things. But people might ignore them, or grumble a little bit, and then move on to something else. That’s to say, it wasn’t just the numerical majority of the unpopularity of Obamacare, it was the unpopularity, its intensity and its longevity that make Obamacare i