SLAY QUEEN: Hillary Clinton Is The Republican Party’s Last, Best Hope (Heat Street) [+2]


Will Truman

Will Truman is the Editor-in-Chief of Ordinary Times. He is also on Twitter.

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38 Responses

  1. Avatar Saul Degraw says:

    Interesting. In the final days of the election, HRC becomes the true conservative after months of “I know HRC is bad but Trump is worse….” from the #NeverTrumpers.

    Not sure what to make of this. Is it a sign that they feel no longer welcome in the GOP and are trying to take over the Democratic Party? Are they fearful of a Trump victory?Report

    • Avatar Jaybird says:

      Is it a sign that they feel no longer welcome in the GOP and are trying to take over the Democratic Party?

      Immediately preceded by:

      HRC becomes the true conservative

      I submit to you:

      The Democratic Party has already been taken over.Report

      • Avatar Saul Degraw says:


        I disagree for a variety of reasons:

        1. There are not enough #NeverTrump Republicans to take over the Democratic Party.

        2. The Democratic Party is on the left when it comes to social politics, environmental policy, income/economics, tax policy, and many other issues. After all, the GOP is still talking about gutting Obamacare and privatizing Social Security and Medicare and uber tax cuts for the wealthy.

        3. Sanders moved Clinton to the left and overall the party has been moving to the left despite the voices of some loud internet leftists.

        4. David Frum was never a social liberal. He might not have been a culture warrior but he was not a social liberal. Neither was Jennifer Rubin. These people are not going to make the Democratic Party right-ward. What we have here at best is an attempt to get Wall Street to like the Ds enough for one election.Report

      • Avatar rmass says:

        Not while liz warren is upright and breathing.Report

      • Avatar Stillwater says:

        The Democratic Party has already been taken over.

        Ayup. And the revolution wasn’t televised. (The whole thing is rigged.)Report

        • Avatar gregiank says:

          Worse than that. The tricksy D’s went back in time to take over the D’s with Mr Hillary Clinton and the DLC. And that told us all they were doing it, they even campaigned on it. That is if we can trust our memory not to have been rigged.Report

          • Avatar Stillwater says:

            I don’t remember NAFTA being campaigned on.Report

            • I do recall NAMBLA being campaigned on. The Democrats were all for them. Though it might not have been the Democrats who said so.Report

            • Avatar Kolohe says:

              NAFTA was definitely campaigned on, Perot made it the centerpiece of his candidacy (‘giant sucking sound’ et al). Clinton was always for it, and then had to arm twist his party’s Senators to pass it. (something George Sr. would not have been able to do were he reelected)Report

        • Avatar Kim says:

          Televised revolutions are happening.
          BLM, Tea Party… you take your pick. Left and Right.
          They’re all rigged up by the Powers that Be.Report

  2. Avatar Saul Degraw says:

    What is clear to me is that the old Republican Party has probably been destroyed. What will replace it is anyone’s guess? I don’t think Trumpism is going away and I suspect that white identity will become a more overt part of the GOP brand.

    Trumpism is not a force that can easily be contained once unleashed.Report

  3. Avatar DensityDuck says:

    Welcome to the place that Sanders supporters already were.

    But, then, everybody knows that Sanders supporters are a bunch of white misogynist techbros. So maybe this isn’t a place you want to be?Report

    • Avatar Jesse Ewiak says:

      90% of Sanders supporters are voting for Clinton. Yes, there’s a few randos who are voting for Trump or not voting, but those people were anti-establishment types who were all RON PAUL REVOLUTION last time around.

      Those guys are the white Berniebros going after journalists. I mean, when even Noam Chomsky has said people should vote for Clinton, the relevant substantial long term leftist argument against Hillary ain’t really there.Report

      • Avatar DensityDuck says:

        “90% of Sanders supporters are voting for Clinton. ”

        …you expect them to vote for Trump?

        You believe that them voting for not-Trump is a sign that they were never supportive of Sanders and were always on Clinton’s team?

        Although maybe you do. Maybe you believe that warmongering, pushing social issues to the furthest-back of the back burners, and making things comfortable for the wealthy is The New Left.Report

        • Avatar Morat20 says:

          I don’t know how on earth you got that from what he said. At all.

          It seemed very clear that, you know, Sanders supporters moved to Clinton because she’s far, far, far closer to them than Trump. Who is about fifteen miles down the road marked “Wrong Way” and accelerating hard enough that there’s time dilation effects.Report

          • Avatar DensityDuck says:

            It’s the best I could come up with for how on earth “90% of Sanders supporters are voting for Clinton” is a response to what I posted. At all.Report

          • Avatar Kim says:

            Clinton and Trump are working for the same folks, and would have about the same policies if elected. Trump’s less good at staying on message, though.Report

  4. Avatar Chip Daniels says:

    One of the consequences of the radical revolutionaries who have taken control of the Republican party is that the old moderate Republicans like Frum have migrated over to the Dems.

    The ideological distance between people like Frum and HRC was always pretty slight to begin with; it was more a degree of mood and cultural affiliation.
    But when presented with a Trump and the various neoConfederates, alt-rightist Nazis and soverieng citizen types who rule the party now, the distance collapses, and Frum and HRC seem almost like birds of a feather.

    The migration also adds to the gravitational weight of the moderate Dems, but its been my experience that the newcomers to the Dem Party start to assimilate and pick up affiliations.

    People like me and John Cole, who were conservatives, didn’t just carry our conservative ideas to the Dems; we also picked up new ideas, new preferences.
    Its kind of like when you get excommunicated from one church, you suddenly are ready to question everything, and adopt new positions and form new alliances with people you might have been opposed to only recently.Report

    • Avatar DensityDuck says:

      Clinton has never not been the person she is now. And the person she is now, in a political governance sense, isn’t much different from her husband was during the nineties.

      So it’s KIND OF A STRETCH to blame Hillary Clinton on Racist Extremist Republicans.Report

      • Avatar Kim says:

        Clinton has gone whacko crazy. The person she is now is not the person she was back in March. I blame the left, and Bernie Sanders.Report

    • Avatar J_A says:

      Please take this as an observation, and not a judgement. David Frum is Jewish.

      I would posit that the modern GOP is not a place where Jewish people want to be, even if they support GOP policies in general (*)

      (*) In Frum’s particular case, his main interest has always been neoconservatism of the Bush/Cheney type. Even today, the Republican Establishment is a better fit for him, as a hawk (**), than the Demecratic party is. But that Establishment might not be there a week from now, and in any case, that Establishment will now have to respond (or pander) to a base that does not like Jewish people very much.

      (**) Most Jewish people that have traditionally supported the GOP have, like Frum, done it as part as the militaristic/aggressive foreign policy/Cold Warrior leg of the GOP stoolReport

      • Avatar Kolohe says:

        Charlie Crist isn’t Jewish and he made the same migration. (I would also say Lincoln Chaffee, but Chaffee is more sui generis)Report

        • Avatar Will Truman says:

          Crist seemed to mostly go wherever the opportunity was. He falls under the category of “Man, this guy is everything the haters always said he was.” I think Chaffee’s conversion was based on more genuine dismay, though.Report

          • Avatar Kolohe says:

            I’m not sure of dismay, more than it was never a good fit to begin with. Chaffee was a New England Republican because that was the family business.Report

        • Avatar J_A says:

          Chaffee and Crist are, or were, more Rockefeller Republicans (or RINOs as they are now called). It’s a different migration pattern

          I’m not saying only Jewish Republicans are moving, or that all Jewish Republicans are (Sheldon Adelson is not going anywhere). But for a non trivial percentage of the Trumpist base, being Jewish is something they, in principle, don’t trust (Hollywood elites, media control, and banks are words associated by the base with Jewish people, particularly Hollywood, and man, they do hate Hollywood).Report

          • Avatar Will Truman says:

            It seems like there might also be a class/rank divide. Anti-Trump Republicans contain a lot of Jews. At the same time, among the rank-and-file anti-Trump Jewish Republicans I know, they are all really frustrated with their families because they’re not only voting Trump next week but did so in the primary.

            I don’t know whether it’s a Commentator vs Rank-And-File or Russian Jew vs Other Jew (I don’t know where the ancestors of Rothman, Podheretz, Frum, Mandel, etc hail from or whether they’re second-generation or sixth).Report

      • Avatar Will Truman says:

        Frum’s foreign policy views are pretty establishment, but in the overall he has more in common with Trump in terms of worldview. Early on, it was actually an open question whether he disliked Trump or the GOPe more. He favors a more active government in the economy, scorns the party’s relationship with the wealthy, and so on. He’s also on the anti-immigration side on 90% of discussions.

        He’s not becoming a Democrat any time soon. He’s actually an interesting case in that he laid all the groundwork of changing over several years ago in Bartlett fashion and then (I believe) found that he just genuinely couldn’t because of the immigration issue. If the nationalists put up a better candidate he’ll probably be a staunch supporter. He just believes Trump is manifestly unfit.Report

        • Avatar Mo says:

          And while Frum is not a full on “shut the borders” type, he is for tightening up immigration, legal* and illegal.

          * I believe he wants a more Canadian systemReport

  5. Avatar Saul Degraw says:

    In other news, the polls are a mess. 538 has Florida trending slightly red now but this just came out:

  6. Avatar Damon says:

    “I would have no problem from a policy perspective of having the U.S. Navy boarding their ships and if there are weapons on them to turn those ships around.””

    Yeah, see this a problem regardless of where it comes from. You want to frickin board a soverign state ship and inspect the cargo. Fine. Then there is no reason why the Chinese can’t do that with an a US Navy ship. You REALLY want to go there?

    Fucking idiots.Report

    • Avatar Kolohe says:

      It’s longstanding US policy to retain the prerogative to board and inspect white merchant shipping in international waters. Most countries do. The rules are different when those ships are escorted by ships of war (e.g. the 80s Tanker War) or are ships of war themselves, which have complete sovereign immunity.

      (Fun fact, for all practical purposes, the 4th amendment doesn’t apply to the coastal waters of the US. And a ship is only useful for the most part if it’s able to both go out in the ocean and pull into various ports)Report

  7. Avatar North says:

    Not surprising. Pity that contingent of the GOP has no voters behind it worth speaking about.Report