Morning Ed: Brexit {2016.06.26.Su}


Will Truman

Will Truman is the Editor-in-Chief of Ordinary Times. He is also on Twitter.

Related Post Roulette

18 Responses

  1. Avatar LeeEsq says:

    The United Kingdom guest post at Hit Coffee isn’t entirely accurate. Scotland’s parliament was merged into the United Kingdom but they were allowed to keep their own judiciary, law, and state church. Similarly, after the Act of Union with Ireland, the British government maintained a separate executive and judiciary for Ireland, all though this was more of a mistake because it made Ireland a sort of not quite a colony, not quite part of the United Kingdom. During the existence of the United Kingdom and Ireland, it wasn’t unusual for Parliament to try out legislation in England and Wales first before applying it to Scotland and Ireland.Report

  2. Avatar Jaybird says:

    Plan here simple: dump Corbyn, seek to trigger a general elex v. Tories (Boris? May?) on promise to stay in EU. Win=mandate to Remain.— Jeff B/DDHQ (@EsotericCD) June 26, 2016


  3. Avatar Jaybird says:

    That Chris Arnade essay was really, really good.

    The extent to which communities self-organize organically is something that we (or elites, or whatever) don’t understand half as much as we need to.

    There are a lot of open-ended experiments going on.Report

    • Avatar Francis in reply to Jaybird says:

      Point 1:

      From the essay: “We over the last 50 years have replaced [the things that give poorer people meaning in their life].” and “we often outright mock anyone who can’t keep up”

      “We” is doing way too much work there. The nature of work is changing. Neither manufacturing nor high-end service (law, accounting, architecture) will ever need the numbers they used to.

      So who did the replacing? Evil CEOs and their conservative puppets in state and federal legislatures is one answer. Another, better one is that the relationship between work and non-work life around the world is a complex, emergent phenomenon.

      (No matter how much we tax billionaires, we can’t just redistribute our way to a safe wealthy life for everyone. Or so it seems to me.)

      Who did the mocking? Evil liberals, of course. Or, perhaps, the mockery bit is just part of the rather ugly tribal sorting going on.

      So maybe “we” should be more thoughtful about what we accuse ourselves of doing. (Nah. Working up a good hate is way more fun.)

      Point 2:

      A lot of the attack on elitism is a buried attack on underlying values. But both sides do it (oh do they ever!). Hypothetically, our elected officials establish the parameters of the debate over a particular topic and experts / elites inform them about the impacts of possible alternatives. In reality, no one is truly neutral. Elites bring their own values but insist that their analyses are true and honest.

      Whether the topic is Obamacare or Brexit (or Greek debt or climate change or …), the is/ought distinction vanishes oh-so quickly in the public environment. Liberals are, of course, worse about this than conservatives are. No, wait, it’s the other way around.

      Is Brexit good or bad? To answer that question, you have to start by telling us what your measure is. Preserving a certain historical culture? Weaving Britain into the global system of trade? Overall GDP? Distribution of GDP?Report

      • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Francis says:

        Two “we”s in there, first one first: it seems that you’re not disagreeing with him as much as saying “DUH! Yeah! Things changed! Things change!”

        So it’s not that he’s wrong, it’s that he’s wrong about thinking it’s bad?

        Well, as for the second “we” in there, I have personally witnessed the mockery of fraternal organizations like the Elks, Lions, so on and so forth. So when he used “we” for that, well, it jibed with my experience. Even now, I can’t imagine joining something like an Elks Club or whatever because it’s a silly throwback to Eisenhower America.

        To answer that question, you have to start by telling us what your measure is. Preserving a certain historical culture? Weaving Britain into the global system of trade? Overall GDP? Distribution of GDP?

        My measure is… wait. If I give a measure, will it immediately result in my being told that I’m using the wrong measure and I should be using a different, better one? If I choose the wrong one, will I have to endure being called bigoted or racist? Will choosing the right one inoculate me (for the duration of this argument, anyway) from being called those?

        Do all of the “right” ones line up on one side and all of the wrong ones line up on the other?

        Or, perhaps, the mockery bit is just part of the rather ugly tribal sorting going on.

        Yes. I think it’s exactly this.

        Which was, I think, one of the points of the essay.
        It seems that we’ve got another point where you’re not disagreeing with him, you’re disagreeing with him thinking it’s bad.Report

  4. Avatar Niall says:

    Scottish Remain and Yes voter here – this isn’t how we wanted it to go, but we’re going to make the most of it. This weekend has been so crazy – UK cabinet missing in action, labour shooting themselves in the foot again and again, Nicola Sturgeon the only person who looks like a leader right now. Twitter has been utterly addicting.

    On the older voters part of Scottish referendum – DWP repeatedly confirmed there would be no change to pensions, but the No side were relentless in pushing this myth of pensions being at risk after a Yes vote. Massive bad feeling about this but more directed at No campaign and the mainstream media reporting of it for duping older voters, rather than at older voters themselves.Report

    • Avatar Will Truman in reply to Niall says:

      Thanks for chiming in, Niall!Report

    • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Niall says:

      Niall, this is great info.

      One of the things that has been bugging me is how close we are to the tipping point of ceasing to see news organizations as news organizations and starting to see them as propaganda arms.

      Seems like we’re closer than we were a couple of months ago…Report

    • Avatar Kim in reply to Niall says:

      What’s this I hear about the Scots being able to veto the Brexit?
      Yes/No/Too Stupid for Words?Report

      • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to Kim says:

        Try the comment threads at Charlie Stross’s blog. Europeans in general and the Brits in particular are bickering over a whole host of legal theories. About the only thing they agree on is that the special privileges Cameron negotiated for earlier this year are out the window, as the language in that document explicitly says the changes are subject to a “stay” vote in the June referendum.

        I am always amazed at the Brits’ ability to phrase things so that “pig-f*cker” sounds like a perfectly reasonable thing to say in a polite conversation.Report

  5. Avatar Jaybird says:

    Something upon which to meditate today:

    Every British person I know voted to Remain. So who voted to Leave? Fuck. That sounds just like the Trump situation.— Bilal Zuberi (@bznotes) June 26, 2016


  6. Avatar j r says:

    I had a very strange experience reading that Freddie post, in that I was getting the distinct impression that, to Freddie, there is only one just form of societal organization. If it ain’t socialism, then it’s oppression of one kind or another. I started thinking that I might be reading him uncharitably, but then I got to this part:

    The choice humanity had was between socialism and barbarism. Decades of neoliberalism have ensured that we’ve chosen the latter.


    • Avatar Kim in reply to j r says:

      *shrugs* I don’t consider neoliberalism to be barbarism. That’s more the neocons.
      Neoliberalism does pick the pockets of the moderately well off, in order to stuff the pockets of the very rich.

      Whether or not you think this is a good thing, that’s simply what it does.Report

    • Avatar Patrick in reply to j r says:

      That’s pretty much where I’ve gotten to, when it comes to Freddie’s writing.

      That piece on neoliberalism is a darkly amusing bit of historical revisionism.

      I had to slap some Berniebro upside the head last week when he claimed that “Neoliberals and the Democratic Establishment killed the public option”


      Joe Lieberman – one guy – killed the public option. That’s actual documented history right there, he was Senator number 60 and he refused to consider PPACA with a public option.

      And he isn’t even a Democrat.Report

  7. Avatar Kim says:

    I love it when otherwise intelligent people start repeating bullshit simply because “someone credible” said it.Report