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Will Truman

Will Truman is the Editor-in-Chief of Ordinary Times. He is also on Twitter.

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  1. Avatar veronica d
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    says:

    I have a confession. I was never actually an astronaut. Not was I Michelle Obama’s personal style coach. I just said those things because I wanted people to like me.

    On the other hand, you know all of Kim’s mysterious “friends” who give her inside info? They’re actually all just me, in a series of alter-egos I’ve established on the dark internet.Report

  2. Avatar Tod Kelly
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    says:

    This just in: System succeeds in attracting exactly the kind of personalities it most rewards.Report

    • Avatar Will H. in reply to Tod Kelly
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      says:

      I fear that we are a doomed people anyhow– I fear that our people are governed too much by passion and prejudice. Reasoned judgment and intelligence have but little to do now in the choice of rulers and lawmakers. The most artful demagogues and the most heartless panderers to popular errors are now generally the most successful candidates for office.

      —Alexander H. Stephens, Congressman (D. – Ga.-7), correspondence, September 20, 1848

      (later served as Vice-President of the Confederacy under President Jefferson Davis,
      whom Captain Abraham Lincoln had served under as Second Lieutenant of Dragoons Jefferson Davis in the Black Hawk War
      )Report

    • Avatar Will Truman in reply to Tod Kelly
      Ignored
      says:

      What’s remarkable to me is that this is the likely Democratic nominee in what was supposed to be a competitive race for an open seat. How could they not have done better than this? And this isn’t even a new thing. They seem to screw it up every time.

      Granted, ahem, the other party also has its problems. But when my Florida Republican peeps told me that Murphy was actually going to be really weak, I should have listened!

      Of course, maybe it won’t be Murphy. Grayson is also running. They couldn’t do much about that one.Report

      • Avatar Tod Kelly in reply to Will Truman
        Ignored
        says:

        It’s pretty terrible, and it’s terrible from all sides. Who the fish did this guy runs against in the primary? How bad does the press have to be? How bad does the candidate have to be to do this to himself?

        As best I can tell, they just elected anyone with a pulse whose name didn’t rhyme with Ballan Bayson.Report

      • Avatar Kim in reply to Will Truman
        Ignored
        says:

        Plants would do better than the people Hillary wants at the DNC.
        Loyalty is a virtue best served in its absence.Report

        • Avatar Kolohe in reply to Kim
          Ignored
          says:

          Even on those terms, the logical thing would have been for DW-S to step down as DNC chair last fall once the Prez field was set, and run for the Senate seat herself.

          Some of this people can’t even do self-dealing personal ambition right.Report

    • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to Tod Kelly
      Ignored
      says:

      The system is baked into American culture, politics, and the Constitution.Report

    • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to Tod Kelly
      Ignored
      says:

      @tod-kelly

      Serious question, is it the System or the entirety of human nature?

      Humans society generally seems to require people to boast about being better off and happier and more successful than they usually are. Otherwise you get written off as a loser. I think this is doubly true if you are a guy.

      When I was in law school, there were a bunch of guys who always pretended to be working as lawyers when talking with women at bars. One guy allegedly got caught and made his way onto a “Don’t date this guy” scammer’s list/website. I always tried to be pretty open about my status and that I was a law student. I don’t even think the guy who got on the don’t date this liar website cared that much because he got his short-term goals.

      Likewise, I generally try to be open about where I am in my start and stop career because I don’t want anyone to think I am a bigger shot than I am. But I see guys in similar career-prospects similar situations as me lie or half-truth to make it sound like they are doing better than they are. Maybe women do this as well but I still think there is enough enforced gender roles so women can bear tougher job markets are still expect to get married and have kids. Guys are still expected to be on financially and career solid ground before marrying.

      So if things are not going well, there are plenty of incentives to half-truth or lie because economic despair sucks but doing it with companionship is more bearable.Report

      • Avatar Aaron David in reply to Saul Degraw
        Ignored
        says:

        To me, the real question of why did he tell them he was a lawyer vs. a law student, and that it is precieved as better to achieve “short term goals.*” In other words, why would a woman be more likely to “short term goals” a lawyer vs. a student? Would something be assumed? If the reward has greater availability to one group, this must be what drives people to misrepresent themselves, it seems to me.

        *My new favorite euphemism.Report

        • Avatar veronica d in reply to Aaron David
          Ignored
          says:

          In other words, why would a woman be more likely to “short term goals” a lawyer vs. a student?

          People are demonstrably attracted to status. A lawyer has achieved a higher status than a law student. A law student is still uncertain. Perhaps they won’t even pass the bar. A lawyer, on the other hand, has more gravitas. They’ve seen more, done more, can “bring more.”

          Or so it is perceived.

          Okay, so the question is, are women actually this shallow?

          The obvious answer: some are, some are not.

          I’d date a law student, quite happily. Why not? Just getting accepted to law school indicates something good. Plus, there are more important things.

          So the question is, the women this guy was hitting on — were they really that shallow, or did he stupidly believe they were? What I mean is, just cuz he got action does not me he got it for the reasons he thought. His routines might have worked. His theories about his success might be totally bogus. I doubt he did a double-blind experiment with adequate controls.

          #####

          All this said, it never hurts to have a life with genuine achievement. People can smell it on you. Folks who lack achievement will often try to fake it. People will sometimes fall for the fraud.

          #####

          It seems natural to be attracted to status, inasmuch as status is a synonym for “prestige,” or “person of substance.” We assume the person who has published the book has more than the person whose manuscript languished. Why do we feel this? I mean, it seems obvious. Achievement is the opposite of failure. We admire the admirable.

          So what about niceness? politeness? concern? caring? support?

          But what about clinginess and insecurity?

          In short, judging other humans is really hard. We use proxies. We care about the opinions of others. We fit ourselves into a social matrix.

          And for those who have a really crappy place in the social matrix?

          They get less, on the whole. But if you can fake it well… If you’re in the big city and most folks don’t know each other…

          So women create websites that list guys who are full of shit. Guys create websites they list ways to fool women. Welcome to hell.Report

          • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to veronica d
            Ignored
            says:

            @veronica-d

            “I’d date a law student, quite happily. Why not? Just getting accepted to law school indicates something good. Plus, there are more important things.”

            Maybe not anymore but many people don’t seem to know that the legal market collapsed. They see that their aunt or uncle is doing well or hear that big firms raised salaries for 1Ls to 180K but don’t understand that this represent a fraction of the market and that their uncle or aunt started careers 30 years ago.Report

            • Avatar veronica d in reply to Saul Degraw
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              says:

              @saul-degraw — Right.

              But like, if we’re talking about veronica-personally, I’m not money-obsessed that way. I mean, many people are. But I’m more interested in if someone is pursuing some kind of meaningful passion.

              Like, I’m pretty sure I would not want to date the sort of person who “quickly makes partner,” cuz that type of person is likely to be — well — not the sort of person I would like. On the other hand, I also have little interest in the “ineffective dreamer” type, cuz a steady stream of unrealized dreams are — well — I dunno. It’s a turn-off.

              Does that make sense?

              Anyway, it’s not like I have some simple template of exactly what I want. I’m more talking about the things that tend to attract me.

              Anyway, different folks want different stuff. Different kinds of people are attracted to different personalities. The stuff I’m talking about, prestige and achievement, these are not one-dimensional things. Different people with different values will rank things differently.

              That said, “lawyer” will rank above “law student” I think, for most people.

              Of course, what kind of lawyer.

              Them: I practice high powered corporate law! Grrr!

              Me: *gathers breadsticks*

              … or …

              Them: I work for the {mumble mumble} institute. We’re donor driven. I largely consult for a series of non-profits.

              Me: Oh! That’s interesting. What’s it like? What sort of cases do you get?

              So yeah. Values.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to veronica d
                Ignored
                says:

                That all sounds pretty wise and reasonable, @veronica-d , but then like @leeesq , the intersection of romantic relationships and the legal job market is kind of a sore subject for me as well.Report

              • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m employed. Its just that I work in the real person end of the law but for money rather than at a sexy not for profit.

                On a more general level, there seems to be a casual boasting or lying that is expected in trying to hook up in some circles that seems unethical to me. I dance as a hobby. Several months ago I was at a singles event with a friend. He was attempting to introduce me to somebody he knew but he told that person that I was a professional dancer rather than an amateur dancer. I corrected the situation immediately but got dragged off into the corner and told that this sort of thing happens in hooking up and is to be expected.Report

              • Avatar Don Zeko in reply to LeeEsq
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                says:

                Ugh, I’m sorry @leeesq , I mixed you up with your brother. Thank goodness my twin doesn’t comment on here, or I’m sure I’d get mixed up with him on the reg.Report

              • Avatar veronica d in reply to Don Zeko
                Ignored
                says:

                There is this thing where, as the manufacturing sector died off, and as employment opportunities among working class men kinda spiraled down the drain, at the same time, marriage rates among these men fell.

                And it’s like, there is a lot of complicated back and forth. These men don’t want to be “house husbands” — like OMG. Correspondingly, the working class women don’t want to marry “deadbeats.” Everyone just assumes that the man has to be the “breadwinner,” and relationships that flip that script are uncommon.

                In gender utopia, this problem doesn’t exist. No one would care. Folks would just hook up and that kind of status would be irrelevant.

                We don’t live in gender utopia.

                These kinds of social pressures, I don’t see why they should be radically different among professional class men and women from how they are among working class men and women. I expect there are some different contours, but the underlying drive is likely the same.

                So yeah, underemployed law-degree men, trying to date among professional class women — that’s gonna suck.

                I’m glad I’m a software engineer. I won the fucking lottery on that shit.

                I’m also glad I’m bisexual.

                About which, okay look, I work a big-giant tech company that everyone has heard of. Like, think of a really giant tech company that everyone would want to work for. I work for them.

                Okay, so men — many men, #notallmen, some men are angels sent this world, but still, a lot of them — they really want to feel “higher status” than the women they date. Like, as an illustration, in BDSM culture, male-dom/fem-sub relationships are a dime-a-dozen (not that there is anything wrong with that your kink is okay), whereas fem-dom/male-sub is less common, and in some ways viewed as “kinkier.”

                There are reasons for this. Anyway, men want to feel higher status. So if some dude seems interested, basically I cannot tell him what I do. As soon as it comes up, I mean — it’s a palpable change. You see them “shrink.”

                Which is silly, cuz my ass is the same ass they were looking at moments ago. But yeah. Male ego. It’s like, shut up and kiss me asshole. Blah.

                #notallmen, I love you guys!

                But really it’s a thing.

                Gender schmender. We should just start over on the gender thing. Clean slate.Report

              • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to veronica d
                Ignored
                says:

                @veronica-d your assuming that gender utopia is possible or even universally possible. Some European countries have gotten kind of close if you squint but not really. There is still a very strong expectation that a man fulfill his traditional role in many heterosexual couples at all stages of the relationship. I think that this attitude even exists among more than a few women who strongly identify as feminist. I see no evidence that this is going to change and that we will have what you consider gender utopia. Your utopia is other people’s dystopia.Report

              • Avatar veronica d in reply to LeeEsq
                Ignored
                says:

                @leeesq — You misunderstand. I think gender utopia is utterly impossible. In other words, I’m using the word with its original sense. When I say we should start over on gender, I’m being ironic. Gender is here to stay.

                Learn the system. Find ways to mitigate the worst parts. Make your life work.Report

              • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to veronica d
                Ignored
                says:

                @veronica-d I read your post and your right, I misread you. Where I disagree is that you don’t place enough blame on women. There are many women, many even you identify as outspokenly feminists, who expressly or impliedly preferred that men by higher status for them. Its the best explanation for the entire height fixation that seems epidemic in heterosexual women or the need for confidence and chemistry. Women can bend a little to.

                I’m in my mid-thirties at this point and I’m really getting exhausted by going out on date after date with same damn result every time. The “it was nice to meet you” and than the disappearance. What I need is something more, I need to go on but I’m stuck as an acquired taste in a system based on instant gratification.Report

              • Avatar veronica d in reply to LeeEsq
                Ignored
                says:

                @leeesq — Oh I agree that women want men who meet certain “status standards” — which is what the whole “social matrix” bit was about. A woman who dates a short guy has to deal with shitty comments from her catty friends.

                Of course, perhaps she should find better friends.

                A while back I read a thing where, in the case of working class women, many are choosing to stay out of relationships, or deliberately “keeping it casual” It’s not that they don’t want romance. It’s that, the men that come along just don’t make the cut, particularly in terms of responsibility and employment. Which is to say, an under-employed man with his own issues often turns out to be a difficult partner.

                It’s complicated. However, the hard truth is, I think this is a rational decision on the part of the women. They focus on their careers, often in nursing or business admin. After the long day, they don’t come home to a messy apartment with some guy who spent all day on the couch with his friends playing x-box.

                Keep in mind, these men refuse the “house husband” role, but they don’t have jobs. It’s a social shitshow.

                Will such women find love? Maybe. Maybe not. But in the meanwhile she has a nice job and a clean apartment and cool friends — and she doesn’t have to drag her ass home from work and then cook for some lazy fuck who cannot even throw his pizza boxes away.

                Anyway, we can ask questions about what happens to these men, which can possibly be answered by observing a Trump rally. My point is not that we should be happy about this. However, I do think we should recognize that these women are following their rational self interest.

                #####

                There seems to be a thing where — I think women handle being single better than men. First, we aren’t as hard on each other over the whole deal. For example, among my friends, saying something like, “No men for me, just cats!” is seen as delightfully ironic. There is a “You go sister!” response.

                For men it is very different — which of course you are very familiar with.

                A single man is viewed as a failed man. A single woman is viewed as a strong sister making an admirable choice.

                Likewise, men seem to have difficulty forming intimate relationships with other men. We gals, on the other hand, often have very close relationships with our “gal pals.” Myself, I have a great deal of emotional intimacy with my non-sexual/non-romantic friends. It’s really nice. We hug a lot.

                Back in my “dude days,” this kind of emotional intimacy between friends was very rare. In fact, one of the few really close friends I had turned out to be another trans gal. (Neither of us knew at the time. It’s kinda funny how life turns out.)

                There is a lot of back-and-forth about the greater sexual fluidity among women. I don’t know if it is true. But still, I’m bisexual. I know many women who are. I know fewer men who claim to be such. So that’s a thing. The point is, people who are inclined to “go bi” have a broader set of choices.

                If fluidity and bisexuality really are more common among women, that gives us an advantage. If we find ourselves “striking out” in dude space, we can saunter over to gal space and find happiness there. (This is basically what I do.) If the guys cannot do that, they are at a disadvantage.

                #####

                So now for some peak feminism. Hold onto your hat.

                Someone once pointed out, there is a thing where married men have better lifetime outcomes than single men. Married men live longer. They seem happier. The thing is, this difference does not exist for women. We do just as well either way.

                Which raises the question, in a world where we have economic independence, and where we can find fulfilling, intimate relationships from other women, what role do men play? Who is getting the better deal?

                There of course is sex. But sex is not so hard to find. Plus, Hitachi has created a miracle device.

                Kids, of course. That’s still the big one.

                But all the same, there are other ways to have kids. Plus not everyone wants kids. Some of us couldn’t have kids even if we tried.

                So from a perspective of rational self interest, what’s in it for us?

                Cats can be lovely companions. As can friends. As can my Hitachi.

                #####

                Given these facts, and in a world where people are free to choose their own best interest, it seems likely that men will be held to a higher standard.

                This probably seems unfair. On the other hand, the rational response to hard shit is to understand the contours, and then to decide what you want to do about it. Good insights guide better choices, within the matrix of likelihood.

                I’ve often quipped, my response to the horns/halo dichotomy is to be as pretty as I possibly can.

                The horns/halo thing is deeply unfair.

                I’ve lost a lot of weight recently. The other day for work I wore this little all-black lacy top and miniskirt combo, with patterned netted stockings. I swear, the men at work were like — they were afraid of me. Or something. I don’t know how to describe it. They weren’t staring or being rude or anything. But I could tell they noticed and were affected. Then tensed up when I came into view. It was actually kinda nicely weird.

                So yeah, shit’s unfair. I’m gonna wear that outfit again, maybe tomorrow night dancing.

                There I will be 48 years old tranny on a dance floor full of twenty-somethings, many who are skinny-ass cis gals who “got it for free,” whereas I had to fight against nature for every sketch of my femininity.

                Tons of shit ain’t fair. But I’m gonna look good in that outfit.

                I’ll probably still go home alone. Maybe. Maybe not. But all the same, as I twirl beneath the lights, and as the crown wheels around me — so many gorgeous people — it’s really nice to see. So lovely. One cannot help but smile.Report

              • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to veronica d
                Ignored
                says:

                There are several good reason why single women do better than single men. One of the main ones is that for a good chunk of their lives it is relatively easier for women to find short term romance and sex than a man without having to pay for it. Women do have to deal with a lot of unwanted attention and creeps but the flip side of this is that when they want, they can have sex easier. For men, getting romance and sex is a lot harder unless you are a particular type of man.

                A non-sex related reason why women do better than men is that being single represents freedom for them. They don’t have to marry or be bounded any more.Report

              • Avatar veronica d in reply to LeeEsq
                Ignored
                says:

                @leeesq — It is clearly easier for young, pretty women to score “hookups.” No doubt. Of course, women aren’t necessarily looking for that. Many women are looking for something more like romance. That ain’t easy to find.

                (#notallwomen)

                Did you know that women are less likely than a man to achieve orgasm during a casual sexual encounter? In other words, it’s easier for us to find someone to fuck us, but that won’t necessarily be such a nice experience. I mean, use your imagination. Practice a little empathy. Do you think the average “horny guy at a club” is going to have any idea how to set a mood, how to touch us, to take his time, to please us, to bring us closer and closer, but not quite, until yes?

                Romance novels exist for a reason. It is the same reason that porn exists. It is what we want, but cannot find, just as the skinny blond eager to fuck the pizza boy is the fantasy of every silly teenage boy.

                There is more. Women risk pregnancy with each sexual encounter. We also face higher risks of STDs, in the sense that the per-encounter rate of STD transmission tends to be higher from man-to-woman than from woman-to-man. So that hot dude at the club who is getting his pelvis close, yeah he’ll fuck us. He’ll fuck anything with a jiggly ass. Maybe he has. Maybe we’ll end up at the free clinic.

                It’s just, this ain’t such a big win for us.

                I can say, “It is easier for men, cuz they can just keep quiet and get left alone.”

                That is a true statement. Does it satisfy you?

                Likewise, the fact is, you can have sex tonight. Easy peasy. A couple phone calls. You’ll have to pay for it, but so what? You have a good job.

                So saying, “It is hard for men to find sex,” is simply false.

                I promise you, head down to the nearest sex shop. Look through the stack of poorly printed free publications by the door. Go through the want ads.

                You can have sex tonight.

                You don’t want that kind of sex. I understand. But why assume we want easy sloppy sex with some bro who lacks even half the basic skills of a good GFE sex worker?

                Anyway, you miss the point so hard. Saying, “You can easily get this thing you don’t want,” is a rather clueless statement.

                #####

                Women have hearts and dreams. Each of us, we have a spark inside. We want to shine.

                You see us as objects.Report

              • Avatar Kim in reply to veronica d
                Ignored
                says:

                In other news, they really do offer gigolo training as a course of study…. (it fits in right nearby savoir faire)Report

              • Avatar veronica d in reply to Kim
                Ignored
                says:

                @kim — Is this at MIT?Report

              • Avatar Kim in reply to veronica d
                Ignored
                says:

                Nope. (also, LOL that MIT would even consider that as a course of study.)Report

              • Avatar veronica d in reply to Kim
                Ignored
                says:

                Those guys could use the experience.

                And really, the Hitachi Magic Wand was an accident. Can you imagine if the MIT nerds put their mind to it?

                (Actually I know this MIT grad enby with a physics degree who builds cool glowing, pulsing, gyrating sex toys as a hobby. They are always a sight to behold at the fetish parties.)Report

              • Avatar Kim in reply to veronica d
                Ignored
                says:

                Yeah, but, um, there’s a reason most geeks don’t go to spy school.

                About a full third of the new developments in 3D printing technology come out of a particular company that develops sex toys (mostly software). A friend of mine started it (he had the dickens of a time getting investors, even on a double your money in 18 months pitch — which is a ridiculous ROI).Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to veronica d
                Ignored
                says:

                There are all kinds of things that all kinds of people look for in all kinds of relationships.

                There is a lot of tension between what we’re told to want, what we aspire to want, what we actually want, and what we realize we should have been wanting back when we were putting this much effort into looking.

                And that applies to #notallwomen just as much as #notallmen.

                Especially since, at the end of the day, a good long-term relationship is about as exciting as running a small non-profit and we spend most of our time judging whether a relationship will be a good fit or not by how much we appreciate the other person’s skills at smacking it up, flipping it, then rubbing it down.Report

              • Avatar veronica d in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                @jaybird — The funny thing is, my ex-wife and I are still roommates. Mostly we both just like the apartment so much — it really is a mega-rare find in Boston — so neither wants to leave. But still, we get along way better now than we did for like the last four years of our marriage.

                It was like, one day we said, “Hey, you know we’re not in love anymore and this is silly. Let’s stop pretending.”

                And the other was like, “Yeah seriously, this is a farce. Let’s stop.”

                And then we were, “But actually I still really think you’re totes cool and I want you around in my life. Just, you know, it ain’t love anymore.”

                “Exactly.”

                “I don’t wanna move out.”

                “Me neither.”

                So the guest room became her room, and things are pretty cool.Report

      • Avatar j r in reply to Saul Degraw
        Ignored
        says:

        Real talk time: you guys are not losing women, because you lack status. You never had those women in the first place. If they were attracted to you, then they wouldn’t be peacing out at the first sign of trouble.

        The world is full of guys who have no job, no future prospects and treat everyone like shit, but who have women who are down to ride with them forever. And the world is full of women who won’t give you a second look unless you’re an investment banker or drive a big enough lift kit or whatever the relevant marker is in that community. You know why those guys get women and those women get guys? It’s not because “girls like jerks” or “men want trophies,” which sometimes they do.

        It’s because those deadbeats and those gold diggers are being who they are and for every type of person, there is a complementary type of person looking for that thing. For every no-good dude, there is a woman with low self-esteem looking to save him. For every gold-digging woman, there is a simp who wants to try to impress her. And those people deserve each other, so unless you’re one of those people I would suggest that you just learn to look elsewhere.

        The problem with faking status is that you are presenting yourself as one thing, but you’re not that thing. And as soon as the other person figures it out, and they always figure it out, they’re going to leave. That road is a dead end.Report

        • Avatar veronica d in reply to j r
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          says:

          The problem with faking status is that you are presenting yourself as one thing, but you’re not that thing. And as soon as the other person figures it out, and they always figure it out, they’re going to leave. That road is a dead end.

          Yep. No one likes a phony.Report

    • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to Tod Kelly
      Ignored
      says:

      @tod-kelly

      There was a time during my freelancing days when I would be starting to date a woman and things seemed to be going well and get laid off from a project that was wrapping up. I would end up telling the woman that my project ended out of honesty and they would be vaguely sympathetic and I would never hear from them again

      When I met my current girlfriend, I was unemployed and stayed that way for a good first two months of us dating. This time I kept silent on the fact that I was unemployed and just talked about law generally and we are still together. I was able to tell her on March 2015 that I was given an offer and the firm rescinded it and she was pretty sympathetic (“they would have done it to anybody and you were the anybody there.”) She knows I lost my current job due to a staff reduction in March 2016 as well.

      She did once say that she was a bit annoyed at me for not saying I was unemployed in late 2014 when we met each other. I asked her if I was honest then would she have stuck around and she admitted no.Report

  3. Avatar Damon
    Ignored
    says:

    The more laws and restrictions their are,
    The poorer people become.
    The sharper men’s weapons,
    The more trouble in the land.
    The more ingenious and clever men are,
    The more strange things happen.
    The more rules and regulations,
    The more thieves and robbers.

    Therefore the sage says:
    I take no action and people are reformed.
    I enjoy peace and people become honest.
    I do nothing and people become rich.
    I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.

    Tao Te ChingReport

    • Avatar Francis in reply to Damon
      Ignored
      says:

      “I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.”

      Oh were that to be true. I had to sing “Tis a Gift to be Simple” a lot in boarding school, and I still think it’s a lie.

      Or, put another way, there’s nothing really stopping you from buying some really low grade ex-farmland in New England or elsewhere and making a go of it. The simple life is out there if you want it. (Just try not to kill your raw milk customers with listeria.)Report

    • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to Damon
      Ignored
      says:

      Considering that the Chinese philosophers had a very strong anti-market component, its really weird seeing you quote them. Their ideal was of hard working peasants ruled over by wise scholars with the minimal amount of commercial activity possible.Report

  4. Avatar Brandon Berg
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    says:

    Only very superficially relevant, but what the hell:

    Report

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