In Praise of Republicans and Democrats

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Will Truman

Will Truman is the Editor-in-Chief of Ordinary Times. He is also on Twitter.

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  1. Avatar Brandon Berg
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    The Japanese Liberal Democratic Party’s name only sounds weird in translation. A more literal translation would be the “Freedom-Democracy Party.” It was formed from a merger of the Liberal Party (again, freedom) and the Japanese Democratic Party, hence “Liberal Democratic.” It never had anything to do with the phrase “liberal Democrat” as it’s used in US politics.Report

    • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to Brandon Berg
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      When I studied abroad in Japan, I lived in a neighborhood of Tokyo called Jiyugaoka. This would translate directly into English as Liberty Hill or Freedom Hill, which could be the name of an American suburb.Report

      • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to LeeEsq
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        That neighborhood is named for the Jiyugaoka Academy, which was called that because the founder was a proponent of the Taisho-era liberal education movement. I can’t find much information on it, but apparently the name comes from the fact that it put more emphasis on student autonomy than traditional Japanese education had.Report

  2. Avatar North
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    Yep, the names are a good catch all; they can mean anything and or nothing.Report

    • Avatar gingergene in reply to North
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      Well, they could mean that the Democrats are in favor of democracy and the Republicans support having a republic, but since only a vanishingly small percentage of the US understands (1) those aren’t necessarily the same thing and (2) what the difference actually is/ could be, both parties are pretty safe.Report

  3. Avatar Saul Degraw
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    Democratic Party. Not Democrat Party.

    I think in any political system with two or three major parties, they are going to overlap and have contradiction. The LDP in Japan has a lot of factions and these factions represent different groups but this is unknown to people who don’t study Japanese politics. There are right-wing parts of the LDP but they are not quite the same as American social conservatism.

    Labour has always had left-wing and right-wing factions and in Britain it is common to say someone is on the Labour Right or the Labour left. They have also always had a upper-middle class intellectual wing. This started with the Webbs and the Fabians and continued with Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Iris Murdoch, and others. The university and professional wing was always more left-wing and often anti-American. If you read Austerity Britain by David Kynaston, you will read about intellectual Labour supporters hoping that the 1945 victory would ween Britain off of American-culture. The novelist L.P. Hartley used to make radio speeches on resisting the “siren song of Hollywood.” Nye Bevan famously started a small rebellion when Hugh Gaitskill introduced charges for prescription drugs into NHS. But you are right that New Labour via Tony Blair does alienate a lot of the working class Labour base. There does still seem to be a large chunk of Labour that sincerely believes in old Clause Four and public ownership.

    I would also say that Les Republicans has a long and very different association in France because of the French Revolution. Most of Europe including France had Monarchist Parties into the 20th century. I think one of the big problems in American politics is that all the parties and factions use the language of “freedom” and “liberty.” In my view, the ultra-right wing House Freedom Caucus is anything but representing Freedom and Liberty.Report

    • Avatar Will Truman in reply to Saul Degraw
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      The funny thing about the historical connotation is that Republicans were a leftward group

      Will change Liberal Democrat Party to Liberal Democratic Party when I get a chance.Report

      • Avatar Richard Hershberger in reply to Will Truman
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        Republicans were a leftward group

        Are we talking about the US here? The Republican Party in the Lincoln-Grant era was progressive in its racial politics, but perfectly happy with big business in economic policy (unless you want to argue the abolishing slavery is anti-business). Even the racial policies area was inconsistent. There was an early split between the Radical Republicans (radical in the sense of supporting civil rights for blacks) and the Moderate Republicans (moderate in the sense of not wanting civil rights for blacks to interfere with the serious business of governing and patronage). The moderate wing won out, at which point the Republican Party smoothly transitioned to being a business party, while the national debate changed to now-obscure points of monetary policy that don’t really map well with present-day divisions.Report

        • In France. As it happens I’m actually listening to the Revolutions podcast on the French Revolution now.Report

          • Avatar Richard Hershberger in reply to Will Truman
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            Fair enough. Though in the French context of course the Republicans were the left, in contrast to the Monarchists.Report

            • Yeah, though they tended to be leftward in the general sense. Even the softy liberals (who had some beliefs that now might be considered conservative) supported a constitutional monarchy. The monarchy was only nixed when just about everybody to the right of the left was out of government.

              (Which is an interesting reaccurrence between England, the US, and France… rarely was breaking free of the monarchy the initial goal.)Report

              • Avatar North in reply to Will Truman
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                No though once they got the ball rolling the monarchy often found itself axed. It went down that way with the German and the Russian Empires; they started out saying they were just going to rejigger the relationship between the Monarch and the state and then after some debate ended up axing it entirely.
                George in England really was the one who threaded the needle the best; recognizing that the ground was shifting under his feet and making peace with modernity and forging a new organic arrangement.

                Really now that I think about it only the British Imperial Monarchy survived. Every other Empire’s dynasty got ousted when they weren’t flat out killed.Report

              • Avatar gingergene in reply to North
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                Japan? Or don’t they count as an Empire?

                I think there’s two things: (1) some revolutionaries say they want a constitutional monarchy just to avoid freaking out the squishy middle too much, but deep down the monarchy was always in their sights. (2) once you’ve moved most of the monarch’s powers into a parliament/congress, what’s the point of having one anymore? Keeping them around starts to look downright dangerous: there’s always the possibility of more expansive powers creeping back to them.Report

              • Avatar North in reply to gingergene
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                Japan’s Emperor was written out of the government by the Americans after WWII. While the Japanese government is respectful to the institution IIRC their formal constitution etc don’t have any provisions in them for the Emperor to have any legal authority.

                Though now that you bring it up Spain was technically an Empire and their Monarch survived. Francoism was kind of jiggy but if the English get a mulligan for Cromwell then the Spanish probably get one with Franco so the English aren’t the only ones though their transition was inarguably the smoothest.Report

              • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to North
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                The Netherlands had quite a bit of a colonial empire for a country it’s size. They controlled the East Indies, Suriname, and a few tropical countries. The Spanish monarchy survived decades after the 1898 imbroglio and eventually revived itself. Belgium’s monarch didn’t disappear after the Congo went free.Report

              • Avatar LeeEsq in reply to Will Truman
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                Monarchists represented a majority in the French Parliament for a few years after the fall of Napoleon III and the Second Empire. France would have become a monarchy if the Bourbon heir agreed to the revolutionary tricolor rather than the old French royal flag.Report

        • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to Richard Hershberger
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          FWIW I thought Will was referring to France where the Republicans and Radicals were on the left and the Monarchist parties on the Right. Anti-Monarchists in Europe still refer to themselves as Republican.Report

        • As far as the US goes, even accounting for evolution over time, we didn’t really have clean left-right party distinctions after the Federalist/DR system up until around the 20’s. And even F vs DR was a little bit murky.Report

      • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Will Truman
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        The Democratic Party was originally the Democratic-Republican Party. Its opposition was the Federalist Party, which, standing for a strong national government, favored the opposite of what we mean today by “federalism”.Report

  4. Avatar LeeEsq
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    What Saul said about the Labour Party. The original name of the United Kingdom’s Labour Party was the Independent Labour Party. It was always a mixture of working class trade unionists and middle to upper middle class intellectual progressive reformers. One quip about the Labour Party was that unlike continental socialist parties, it owed more to Methodism than Marxism. There was always a lot of tension between the two factions because of different ideas on how the party should go and what it should represent. Just as we had Reagan Democrats in the United States during the 1980s, there was Working Class Thatcherites in the United Kingdom because working class British people that lived in the prosperous south east of England abandoned Labour for the Conservatives. Working class people in Wales, North England, and Scotland remained Labour voters.Report

  5. Avatar LeeEsq
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    Having Lincoln form a Socialist Party is one of the more unbelievable counterfactuals I’ve come across. Lincoln was a big time corporate lawyer representing railroads for a lot of money before he became President. One of the lesser known aspects of Lincoln’s life, because it would distract from the popular image of him, is that he did like making and having money. There is no way in hell that he would do such a complete switch to become a socialist.Report

  6. Avatar Roland Dodds
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    Great piece Will. I wrote a bit about the American Socialist Party Split a few years ago that may be of interest. http://www.butiamaliberal.com/2008/08/american-socialist-split.htmlReport

  7. Avatar Tod Kelly
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    I wonder to what degree this is all putting the horse after the cart.

    Does “socialist” — or for that matter, “libertarian,” or “fascist,” or “communist” — really carry an inherent concrete and niched meaning in a way that “Republican” and Democrat” don’t? Or is it that we assume fuzzier lines for the latter two because we’ve grown up in a society where they have been necessarily fuzzy?

    Had early Democrats named themselves the Socialist Party, would we think socialist was a fuzzy catch-all phrase, and criticize someone who called themselves a “democrat” for being majority rules even when it meant tramping on personal freedom of speech, religion, etc?

    I’m not sure there’s such a clear answer here.Report

    • Avatar Will Truman in reply to Tod Kelly
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      I would say that Socialism represents a more universal ideology. Same with communism. The same case could be made with libertarian.

      Conservative and liberal are more like orientations, very context dependent.

      Republican and Democrats, unless we’re talking about a context where monarchy or dictatorship are realistic possibilities, are team names.

      To some extend, Socialist appears to be more of a team name in France, but it’s using a word with a different primary meaning that unlike Democrat and Republican where there is a broad consensus that we are all functionally democrats and republicans, is different.Report

      • Avatar Vikram Bath in reply to Will Truman
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        China has found “communist” to have an endless flexibility to it. James Fallows of The Atlantic has a nice set of videos called, I think, “Doing Business in China”. In one of the early segments, they ask a bunch of Chinese people what “communist means”, and every last person they talk to just does an “uhhh…”

        If I look at how Chinese people use the word, “communist” seems to mean “good for the common people”.Report

  8. Avatar Richard Hershberger
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    says:

    Kudos for plowing through Turtledove like that. His earlier work was often very interesting, historically informed alternate history. Then came the day he decided to cash in. The transition was quite abrupt. Anyone can have a bad book or three, so I kept reading them until I couldn’t take the dreary slog anymore. In retrospect I regret not having bailed out earlier.Report

    • I’ve only consumed the Southern Victory series (up to 1941) and the Atlantis series (excluding the short stories). Which ones have you read that you would recommend or warn me about?Report

      • Avatar Richard Hershberger in reply to Will Truman
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        Early on he wrote a lot of short stories, some in a connected universe. I recommend the collection “Agent of Byzantium.” It is set in an alternate universe in which, centuries earlier, Saint Mouamet converted to Christianity and went on to compose such beloved hymns as (going from memory) “There is only one God and Jesus is His Son”. The stories benefit from Byzantine history being Turtledove’s area of expertise.

        Another recommendation is his stand-alone novel “Between the Rivers,” set in early Mesopotamia and based on the marvelously cracked theory of Julian Jaynes. It’s not a great novel by any means, but if you are familiar with Jaynes it is a fascinating exercise in working through the theory.

        “The Guns of the South” is (one of?) his first American South books. I believe it is a stand-alone. A South African white supremacist group invents a time machine and goes to Robert E. Lee in 1864, offering to supply the Confederate Army with AK-47s. (An interesting and sensible choice, as being more rugged and requiring less care than an M-16.) Wackiness ensues.

        Generally to avoid would, in my opinion, be any of the endless open-ended series, which to me have a distinct air of being written with speed taking precedence over craftsmanship. But if you liked the Southern Victory series, our tastes may be different enough that you should disregard the warning.Report

  9. Avatar DavidTC
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    Conclusion: Political parties should be named with a five character alphanumeric string which does not mean anything.

    How can you vote for K0sw2 this election? Their candidate is horrible. Vote z30s4 instead!Report

  10. Avatar Will H.
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    I support the Togas Party, though not so much in winter.
    I’m more of a fairweather-friend to the Togas.Report

  11. Avatar Will Truman
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    But seriously, when will the New Democrats stop being new?Report

    • Avatar KatherineMW in reply to Will Truman
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      I’d favour changing our name to the Social Democratic Party (like “conservative” and “liberal”, “social democratic” is an actual political orientation), but it’s not likely to happen, precisely because the party is no longer “new”. The brand’s been around long enough that people are reluctant to change it.Report

      • Avatar Will Truman in reply to KatherineMW
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        “We want to change the entire relationship between citizen and capital, but changing our name is a bridge too far!”

        (totally kidding)Report

        • Avatar KatherineMW in reply to Will Truman
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          I think we stopped being the party that wanted systemic change when we lost Jack.

          We’re now that-party-that’s-kinda-like-the-Liberals-but-not.

          If I’d watched the debates with no beforehand knowledge of Canadian politics, I would not have known which party was supposed to be the “left-wing” one (well, other than the Greens, who were clearly left) and which was supposed to be the “centrist” one.

          The NDP backed a corporate tax cut, while the Liberals didn’t. The Liberals backed a higher income tax bracket covering income over $200k, while the NDP didn’t. The Liberals supported legalizing pot, while the NDP didn’t. The Liberals and the NDP both supported some kind of electoral reform. The Liberals and the NDP both took a well-we’ll-see position on oil pipelines. The Liberals supported intervention (but not bombing) in Syria; the NDP opposed military intervention. The Liberals said they would run a deficit to stimulate the economy; the NDP said they would balance the budget.

          We gave Canadians the choice between a centrist party with an old and uncharismatic leader and a centrist party with a young, attractive, and charming leader. Unsurprisingly, they picked the latter.Report

    • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Will Truman
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      “We represent a complete rethinking of liberal principles and policies. We’re going to call ourselves the New Democrats.”

      “That would be too confusing. There’s already a New Democrats.”

      “But our movement started just last year. We should be the New Democrats.”

      “Tough, kid. They’ve been the New Democrats since before you were born.”Report

  12. Avatar Vikram Bath
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    says:

    I’m surprised I’m the first one to mention this. Might someone not consider it a *feature* that labels make certain kinds of actions awkward? If you really hate free markets, then you want change to be awkward.Report

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