….his views on gun control regulations isn’t one of them.
And yet the people who love to cry up opposition to tyranny are demanding a legal resident of the US be deported for expressing a view on TV….
…but remember, it’s the “anti-gun” crowd that’s got totalitarian desires.
Nob Akimoto
Nob Akimoto is a policy analyst and part-time dungeon master. When not talking endlessly about matters of public policy, he is a dungeon master on the NWN World of Avlis
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We can kick people out of the country by petition???? Why didn’t I know this?
Man, I am getting to work on my Kardashian petition right after the holidays.Report
Can y’all start a “give Nob a green card” petition instead?Report
OK, but you have to go in TV and talk about how much you love guns, and how you wish there were lots more of them, bigger ones, that fired more bullets faster, and all you want is to become an American citizen so you can start your collection.
Not worth it, huh?.Report
Hold up, dammit I haven’t had my turn with Kim yet!Report
Eeww.Report
Well, you can if they’re FOREIGN…
You know who else was foreign?
No. Not that one.
Obama.Report
(golf clap)Report
I wonder if Piers Morgan can be extradited to the UK as accessory to phone hacking.Report
You know what he was fired for, right?Report
From Daily Mirror? Sure, the dodgy QLR torture photos. Which isn’t to say abuse wasn’t going on in QLR, it was.
Piers Morgan is such a shitfly.Report
“…but remember, it’s the “anti-gun” crowd that’s got totalitarian desires.”
You both do, but it’s all part of the stew that makes America crazy delicious!Report
Hey, if you don’t like living in a country where we can tell people to move to other countries, maybe you should move to Somalia.Report
Telling is one thing, but using your First Amendment rights to try to stop someone from using his First Amendment rights to take away your Second Amendment rights by petitioning a president you think is trying to take away all of your rights? That’s a fishing Moebius strip.Report
From what I understand, the petition thing works like this:
When a petition gets X signatures, it will be addressed by the administration. And by “addressed”, I mean “they will release a statement”.
I believe that that is the entirety of the weight carried by these signatures. As such, it’s easy for me to see this petition as “political theater” rather than anything much more jerky than that.
I’m willing to entertain arguments for why I should see them as something more sinister, however.Report
Do they honestly think they’ll get a statement beyond
It is not White House policy to intervene in immigration matters.
or
The First Amendment protects both popular and unpopular states.
It’s not sinister, just convoluted and foolish.Report
convoluted and foolish
The Great American pastime.Report
Unless THEY think the petition carries morr weight. I wouldn’t be shocked to find a number of signees of such silly petitions thinking that.
Maybe we need a new “School House Rock”…
“I’m only a petition,
No matter the strength of your conviction,
I exist only online.
So go ahead and sign,
But that is all that’ll happen,
While you shake your fist from your cabin.
Which, oh by the way,
I’m sorry to say,
Is being watched and your movements tracked,
Thanks to your support of the PATRIOT ACT.”Report
nice!
petitions and sensible thinking generally can’t be in the same room as each other. probably some kinda beef back in old times. they just don’t get along.
this is particularly stoned as hell, though, for the reasons listed above.Report
Dhex, you have totally won this thread.Report
Thread win is shared by Kazzy and dhex.Report
Awesome!Report
but remember, it’s the “anti-gun” crowd that’s got totalitarian desires.
There are plenty of totalitarian desires to go around.Report
This just makes me sad. The way to respond opposing views is with more speech, not to shut someone down.
I do find it funny that people are asking BOB to deport him. For gun control? That’s like asking Bloomberg. Idiots.
(ofc he’s wrong about gun control but that’s another issue)Report
If there is no, absolutely no, force of government behind what they’re doing, I’d be interested in hearing the argument that what they are doing is not, in fact, “more speech”.Report
There’s speech and there’s speech. “Fish you, you fishing fisher, open your fishing mouth again and you’re going to fishing regret it” is speech. So is “We’ve had this conversation many times, and both the empirical evidence and the wishes of the American people argue against gun control.” There’s nothing wrong with criticizing the former, and if there were, it would still be more speech.Report
Oh, absolutely. I’m not saying “don’t criticize the petition drive”. I’m just questioning whether the petition is, in fact, shutting *ANYTHING* down.
How’s this? Insofar as it is a threat, I find it exceptionally creepy and worthy of a response that is something of the form “we don’t deport people for disagreeing about public policy and the suggestion that we do is downright Unamerican, have you no decency, etc”.
My take on the petitions remains that they’re pretty much political theater and my role to play is to point out that those who engage in the political theater of saying that the petitions are more than political theater are engaging in theatrics of their own.Report
What fraction of the 32,000 people who’ve signed the petition to deport his ass, do you think, don’t really mean “deport his ass”?Report
I dunno. Check this tweet out:
https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/282918808858009600
Just 4821 signatures needed to take my deportation petition to the point Obama has to respond. I urge you to sign:
He also advertised the heck out of the petition prior.
I think it’s safe to say a “non-zero amount”.
If there are people out there who think that, by signing the petition, they are forcing Obama’s hand with regards to immigration policy? I don’t think that the fact that they are dumb is an indictment against this particular kind of political theater.Report
I’m reminded of a Chris Rock skit: So when conservatives sign a petition to deport someone it’s just political theater, but when
black rappersliberals merely mention a social problem it means a they want to pass a law.ReportSo… wait. Piers Morgan wasn’t calling for a law to be passed?Report
Independently of that (I really should capitalize some or all of those words) what does that have to with your claim that the petition to deport him is all just “political theater”?Report
I fully support Piers Morgan’s right to call for Something To Be Done.
But the (toothless, theatrical) petition to have him deported is something that falls well within the same right to call for Something To Be Done.
I see it as “more speech” given that the petition has absolutely zero coercive power on the part of anybody (apart from, of course, the pledge that Obama made to comment on petitions that get more than 25,000 but, honestly, I put that pledge in the same category as any given pledge made by a politician).
Would I oppose a law being passed to kick Piers Morgan the hell out? Hell, yes I would… In the same way that I support Piers Morgan’s right to call for gun control but would (and do) oppose the types of laws he’s calling for.Report
A call for deportation as a punishment for speech is a different animal from saying if you don’t like a substance of policy you should go where said policy is not enacted.Report
Just 4821 signatures needed to take my deportation petition to the point Obama has to respond. I urge you to sign:
And? Theater or dead serious, the goal is to reach that number.Report
And when that number is reached?
I suspect that whatever happens, it will mean about as much as the petition to build a death star. Or the one to legalize pot.Report
And when that number is reached?
We’ll have a list of people who may disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death their right to kick you out of the country for saying it.Report
Again, we disagree over whether the petition actually entails people kicking someone out of the country.Report
Mike’s point is that the people who are signing the petition are actively advocating for kicking that guy out of the country. It’s their intended outcome.
You deny that for some reason.Report
Perhaps it would mean more to me were I not told to leave the country periodically.Report
Maybe you’re right. We shouldn’t take anything anyone says seriously anymore.Report
JB,
What is more likely:
A) Folks signing a petition seeking to deport Piers Morgan wanting to see Piers Morgan deported
-or-
B) Folks signing a petition seeking to deport Piers Morgan wanting to make a point and not actually wanting him deported.
When I go to McDonalds and order a cheeseburger, I’m sure it is possible I really want chicken nuggets. But the McCounterPerson would be wise to assume cheeseburger.Report
Still
It seems JB is asking us to offer the benefit of the doubt to people who have seemingly made no effort to secure it.Report
What benefit of the doubt am I being asked to give? That people think that what they’re signing the petition for will result in anything but a statement by the government?
I don’t know that that is *THAT* much of a stretch to be making.
I mean, Jeez. It’s a step above clicking a “like” button.Report
I imagine there’s a fair amount of overlap between these people and the “build a border fence and kill all the immigrants” types.Report
I’d also guess that most of them support the war on drugs and the idea of drone attacks without congressional review.Report
I see the existence of this petition as evidence that most of the signees have less than absolute respect for the 1st Amendment.
You seem to be arguing that these folks are doing no such thing because they are actively embracing their 1st Amendment right.
Which do you really think is true? If you asked these people, “What would you like to see happen to Piers Morgan,” what would you bet their answer was?Report
I imagine that they’re allowed to say more or less whatever they want… so long as we all agree that their statements carry about the same force of law as the petitions to secede or the petitions deporting the people who signed secession petitions.
Or the death star one.Report
But that’s not the question.
You are saying people criticizing them are engaging in political theater because the petitioners are just engaging in political theater and their critics know it.
I think there are far too many assumptions required to accept that, assumptions you’ve offer no reason to make.Report
I guess I should know better than to accuse my interlocutors of grandstanding.
I apologize for impugning your motives (and everybody’s motives, except for the motives of the people who are hoping Piers Morgan goes back to England).
I hope we can work out a way that I can properly make amends.Report
It would help if you actually argued what you thought was right instead of what you thought other people are doing wrong.
Again…
Person A: Something stupid!
Person B: That was a stupid thing to say.
JB: You shouldn’t call them stupid when they are only saying and doing the exact same thing you are.
You don’t see the flaw there? You really think Nob is grandstanding?Report
Also, no one has argued that they shouldn’t be able to create or sign such petitions. All we have said is that the sentiment behind this particular petition seems awfully stupid and antithetical to traditional American values as defined by the Constitution, which is ironic given their apparent objection to Morgan is him advocating a stance equally antithetical to traditional American values as defined by the Constitution.Report
I see the dynamic as more:
A: Something stupid!
B: How *DARE* you say something stupid? Have you no decency???
And, seriously: given that I have been told, personally, to go to Somalia if I didn’t like this or that or the other policy being put forward by Team Blue, seeing members of Team Blue now pearl clutching over someone telling Piers Morgan “Love it or Leave it” strikes me as, at the very least, disingenuous.
Now, I did say above, insofar as the petition comes across as a threat, the proper response *IS* exceptionally creepy and worthy of a response that is something of the form “we don’t deport people for disagreeing about public policy and the suggestion that we do is downright Unamerican, have you no decency, etc”.
Insofar as the petition is political theater? The people questioning the patriotism of the people engaging in political theater strikes me as even more political theater.
Yeah, yeah. If I don’t like political theater, I should move to Somalia.Report
Is your criticism aimed at the critics of the speech here or members of “Team Blue” more broadly?
Because my response certainly isn’t, “How dare they say!” It’s, “Man, that is stupid! And I bet they don’t even realize just how stupid.”
Also, I like having you here. I don’t wish you off to Somalia. Well, not ALL the time.Report
What do you expect? The whole “petition” thing was invented by a guy that’s just like You Know Who!Report
If you haven’t explored https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions then you should know that you’ve missed out.
My favorite: Secure resources and funding, and begin construction of a Death Star by 2016.
For the record: I oppose the tax hikes that would be necessary to do this, I oppose the construction of this so-called “Death Star”, and yet I fully support the right of these people to sign that petition.
And, before you ask, I am of mixed opinion when it comes to private Death Star creation and ownership.Report
My favorite so far? “Ban Dianne Feinstein.”Report
You know, that constitutional proscription on bills of attainder seemed like a good idea at the time. Another well-intentioned law coming back to bite us.Report
If Death Stars are outlawed, only Sith Lords will have Death Stars.Report
“Morgan “is engaged in a hostile attack against the U.S. Constitution by targeting the Second Amendment,” the petition says.”
In other news, we have an amendment process for the Constitution for a reason, and it’s high time the language of the 2nd Amendment was cleaned up so that it can continue to protect the legitimate rights of people to have hunting equipment and personal protection equipment without making crazy, inbred, paranoid schizophrenic reactionaries who assemble small arsenals in the name of “when the revolution comes” think they are somehow justified or legally right.Report
This comment represents a petition to deport Jaybird to Somalia. If you think that’s a good idea, please post a response saying so. Note that because this petition is purely a bit of political theater, there is nothing whatsoever objectionable about it, and all criticisms will be dismissed as equally theatrical.Report
So… if I see your comment as proving *MY* point, should I tweet that I urge people to sign?
Or that I urge people to condemn?
What ought my urge goad?Report
Urge people to use their best judgment. If, as I suspect, that’s to ask me when I lost my mind, it proves *my* point.Report
What if I see you as engaging in political theater? Am I allowed to say “Jeez Louise, I remember when Political Theater had better monologues! And better buffets”?Report
Or “I remember when show people in politics meant Sheridan, not Gopher”?Report
This comment represents withheld judgement on whether Jaybird should move to Somalia; after all, since I only interact with him in the virtual world, so long as he has a fast ISP connection on his floating cyberpunk libertarian fortress there, I expect our interactions to go much the same.
But if he goes to Somalia – this comment represents DIBS on his stuff. I hear he has a great comic book collection.Report