Thinking in Shorthand


Burt Likko

Pseudonymous Portlander. Homebrewer. Atheist. Recovering Republican. Recovering Catholic. Recovering divorcé. Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of Ordinary Times. Relapsed Lawyer, admitted to practice law (under his real name) in California and Oregon. On Twitter, to his frequent regret, at @burtlikko. House Likko's Words: Scite Verum. Colite Iusticia. Vivere Con Gaudium.

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557 Responses

  1. Avatar Jaybird says:

    To what extent can it be said that we, here, write and speak in a way that does not assume American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, middle-class status, etc. to be the norm? To what extent do we fail to use “inclusive language” as “a fundamental issue of social justice”?

    Because if we (happy!) few here at the League writing in the way that we write would fail this political science course, I can’t help but wonder whether the problem wouldn’t be with the course’s expectations.

    (Keep in mind: I’m not talking about the monumental ability of right-wingers to be aggrieved and start screaming as though they had been shot the second that you tell them that girls will be called on in class as well and Jewish people should be allowed to celebrate something other than Christmas this time of year. I’m just talking about a college course in political science that those of us here, writing the way that we write, would get a significant number of points docked for that.)Report

    • Avatar MFarmer says:

      Your concern is a dogwhistle for racist, fascist, reactionary resistance to cultural change.Report

        • Avatar greginak says:

          Isn’t Mike’s c0mment an example of being immediately “aggrieved.” The Lovelace guy also seems to be an example of the kind of aggrieved, screaming behavior you note in your last paragraph.

          It seems more like just mentioning race leads to at least one post of ” see you are just calling us racist.” While this is a great way to shut a conversation down (not like discussions of race are going to happen here) what is the point other then to announce how victimized conservatives are just by any mention of race. I think Burt nailed the problems with Lovelace’s concern.

          Has anybody ever said debate teams are indoctrination because they push people to argue positions they don’t hold? We must eliminate debate teams if we are defeat PC. The Anti-PC forces much fight on to rid ourselves of PC.Report

          • Avatar Burt Likko says:

            To be fair, it looks to me that Mike was making a joke.Report

            • Avatar greginak says:

              Okay. It read to me like lots of automatic comments from conservative commenter’s regarding any mention of race. It’s a joke only in mocking any concern about race, dogwhistles ( because noting lee attwood or how his methods are still practiced) or how we “see” or handle race today?Report

            • Avatar Jeff No-Last-Name says:

              Ha ha hardy har har. Same “joke” he makes on every thread like this.

              Experience is not in his favor.Report

              • Avatar MFarmer says:

                What are you talking about, Mr. No-Last-Name, if that’s your last name? On every thread I vary the content of hucksterism to ensure the dancing bears don’t wander for lack of focus, just like when taming a tiger one must never dream of Jeanie or Ralph as the case may be. You however don’t understand every thread, because if you did the manifestations of tomfoolery would evidently prove not to dissemble but rather to lack such pithy charges as racism and po-boy cultural spark. So, in closing, be your own escort in the midnight of enlightenment — you’ll find your barbaric yawp in due time.Report

              • Avatar Jeff No-Last-Name says:

                I’ve no idea what you just said, but I heartily approve!Report

              • Avatar MFarmer says:

                Then so be it, my friend with no last name.Report

    • Avatar Burt Likko says:

      Again, it’s not clear to me that nearly anyone here would be docked points. It looks to me like the professor wants to see that the author of a paper has meaningfully considered diverse viewpoints. You’re assuming (like Mr. Lovelace) that because you are white and male and heterosexual and American and middle-class that this will be held against you. There’s no evidence of this.

      Nor is it clear to me that the professor would be as evenhanded as my charitable reading of those small portions of her syllabus as were reprinted would suggest. It’s possible that even if you correctly articulate a non-dominant point of view but nevertheless diverge from its orthodoxy, you’d be docked points. There’s no evidence contrary to that, any more than there’s evidence consistent with it. If Mr. Lovelace had gone ahead and taken the class, and presented a paper that was given a poor grade justified by the professor’s notation that the paper “reflected white male heterosexual perspective” or words to that effect, then we’d have a more interesting discussion here.

      What we have now is that Mr. Lovelace saw that he’d be required to consider and understand perspectives other than his own, and then refused to even try for fear of getting a bad grade. I have a hard time respecting that because I don’t see evidence that a bad grade was inevitable. The only evidence we’ve got is that the professor demanded students pay attention to how use of language buttresses a particular cultural perspective. That is fairly within the realm of inquiry for a class like this.Report

      • Avatar Jaybird says:

        I mean, let’s say I wanted to talk about Kremlinology.

        Is that a fair thing to talk about in a 2nd year Political Science class? (Not the whole class, of course, but one day in the course would benefit from a condensed Kremlinology section, I’d think.)

        Now I’ll ask you to imagine the topic sentence of a short paper on Kremlinology. How would you make it fall in line with the best ideals of Social Justice?Report

        • Avatar Burt Likko says:

          While I doubt a subject as focused as Kremlinology would be the subject of a second-year political science research techniques class in the way, say, gun control or abortion might be, as I read what’s described in the syllabus, what I think is being called for is an understanding of how things impact different segments of the population. So if you’re going to do Kremlinology, then you may not look just at the impact that different Russian leaders have had on mainstream ethnic Russians but other ethnic groups in Russia, and the nations where Russia is projecting its power. Or, particularly appealing if you’re a conservative, you can explain how central economic planning emanating from the Kremlin has caused economic devastation and imposed unnecessary poverty on all of the Russian people other than the political elites, both before and after the fall of the Soviet Union.Report

          • Avatar Jaybird says:

            We spent a *LOT* of time on the fall of the Berlin Wall. I’m pretty sure that a mere five years prior, the same class would have discussed the significance of Andropov, Cherenko, Gorbachev in so short a time following Brezhnev’s longevity. It’s easy for me to imagine a day spent on Kremlinology.

            So if you’re going to do Kremlinology, then you may not look just at the impact that different Russian leaders have had on mainstream ethnic Russians but other ethnic groups in Russia, and the nations where Russia is projecting its power. Or, particularly appealing if you’re a conservative, you can explain how central economic planning emanating from the Kremlin has caused economic devastation and imposed unnecessary poverty on all of the Russian people other than the political elites, both before and after the fall of the Soviet Union.

            It seems to me that “Podgorny is getting closer to the center, we can expect the Ukraine to have better treatment” doesn’t meet the requirements expected in assumptions other than American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, and middle-class status. I can’t even imagine what a discussion of the unforced errors would merit criticism of, using those same standards. I, for damn sure, ain’t seeing praise.

            Indeed, it seems to me that writing an essay about American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, middle-class status (or the lack thereof) while looking at the pictures of the grey men standing in front of a parade could very well be writing an excellent essay indeed…

            but I don’t know that it’d be best to call the paper a paper on Political Science.Report

        • Avatar BlaiseP says:

          Kremlinology. What a crock. As early as 1983 I was on record predicting the fall of the USSR. But I’ll give you your topic sentence:

          Comparative power order ranking of Politburo officials based upon distance from Comrades Stalin and Molotov from atop the reviewing stand on the Kremlin balcony during the May Day parade.Report

          • Avatar Jaybird says:

            Now rewrite it to pay more attention to social justice this time.Report

            • Avatar BlaiseP says:

              The shortages, tovarisch, will be divided among the workers.Report

            • Avatar Stillwater says:

              Fair point. But a good point against BP? Or any other liberals on this board?

              {{Well, Jesse…}}Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Erm… I thought it was a pretty good joke, all things considered. Am I missing something here?Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                No, I don’t think so. Unless Jaybird chimes in to clear it up.

                I don’t know which wall he’s hoping that comment will stick to.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                If I asked you to explain the Krebs Cycle but to pay attention to transgender concerns, would you see that as a reasonable request?

                I’m assuming not. Okay. That’s the starting point from there.

                From over here, we can discuss whether political science has traditionally been weighted heavily toward the American, male, white, heterosexual, and middle-class concerns to its own detriment.


                Somewhere in the middle is my 2nd Year PoliSci course that discussed, among other things, the (very recent) fall of the USSR, the (very recent) fall of the Berlin Wall, power dynamics in Asia, power dynamics in the Middle East, and power dynamics in Eastern Europe… and how much weight should be given to make sure that the class spends enough time on attitudes other than American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, and middle-class status.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                and how much weight should be given to make sure that the class spends enough time on attitudes other than American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, and middle-class status.

                Sufficient weight?

                Do we disagree in that?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                It’s close enough to begging the question that I don’t see how anyone could disagree with it.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                Non-negligible weight?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                And enough non-negligible weight at that.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                More than nothing, less than everything.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                Explain why the South is not as powerful as the North via rust, humidity and other climatilogical factors that impinge (to the detriment) on properly functioning technology.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                I’m not trying to make a point against BP or any other liberals on this board.

                I’m trying to get them to see that writing in such a way that doesn’t assume (deep breath) American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, and middle-class status is a fine, fine goal that can be achieved by writing dispassionately about such things as the comparative power order ranking of Politburo officials based upon distance from Comrades Stalin and Molotov from atop the reviewing stand on the Kremlin balcony during the May Day parade.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                I kid you not, CIA wrote lengthy tomes upon that very subject, every year.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                Dude! I know!

                And, from what I understand, they were wrong more often than right.

                What can I say? There is no Pravda in Izvestiya and there is no Izvestiya in Pravda.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                Your answer’s down here, BP.

                He wasn’t making a point against any liberals on this board… S’all good.Report

        • Avatar Katherine says:

          Jaybird –

          That’s not what the quoted section is saying. It’s not saying that any paper you write has to be about social justice. It’s not saying you have to talk about social justice at all.

          It’s saying that your paper should not demonstrate the implicit assumption that everyone is white, male etc., or that “white straight male” is the default and everyone else are “special interests” (a view which is all too common in regular political discourse and journalism). It justifies this requirement by calling it a matter of social justice.

          You seem to be reading something into the quoted passage that’s not there. I think it’s a very reasonable requirement for journalists, given how common it is (to give one example) in election commentary to treat the white male vote as somehow more important or legitimate than everyone else’s. In other words, if one party wins the blue-collar white male demographic overwhelmingly, that’s treated as having more meaning than winning the overwhelming majority of black people’s votes.Report

          • Avatar Jaybird says:

            Which brings me back to us here:

            It seems to me that there are different interpretations of what was said. One of them is one that would get all of us here (excepting perhaps one or two of the nuts) to nod and agree that it’s good for students to open their minds, try on new perspectives, and not assume that anyone who ever reads one of their papers is equally white, male, straight, middle-class, and so on. Hey, even I agree with that.

            There is another interpretation that leads me to think “we don’t write like that here, even though we write well on many (if not most) topics (including PoliSci kinda topics). What does *THAT* mean?”

            And I found that second question a lot more interesting.

            Though if your interpretation is correct, know that I agree with it 100% and the student, let me say again, is a jerkface.Report

      • Avatar Shazbot3 says:


        If he had written the paper and got a bad grade, he could’ve taken the paper to the department chair and complained. This does happen, IMO, at least at the school I was at. There are times the student demonstrates they have achieved the goals stated in the course description and the grade is required to be changed.

        Usually, the professor is right and the paper was awful according to reasonable, fair criteria, but sometimes students have legit complaints.

        But we’ll never know if his complaint was legit because he never took the class.

        Maybe Breitbartia will give him a column.Report

      • Avatar Mopey Duns says:

        Funny how the quest for diversity in higher education seldom requires students to engage with conservative thinkers in the same way.Report

    • Avatar MikeSchilling says:

      To be honest, I think most of us would fail beginning calculus too, unless you were willing to put in the work to learn new things. Perhaps they should stop teaching that as well.Report

      • Avatar Jaybird says:

        I think most of us would fail beginning calculus too

        But not because of how we talk about numbers.Report

        • Avatar trizzlor says:

          I think Mike’s a little off with the calculus example, but a lot of the writing done here wouldn’t pass a class on, say, memoir or sonnets precisely because of the way we talk. And that would not reflect poorly on such classes.

          The way I see this student is like someone taking an art class on cubism and then complaining that figuritivists are being marginalized!Report

          • Avatar Stillwater says:

            …complaining about being indoctrinated by cubists!Report

          • Avatar Jaybird says:

            I have only vague memories of my own 2nd Year Political Science class.

            The first is that the professor was a tiny Asian man with a thick accent who opened his speech on the first day by saying “Power…” (but the accent made it more like “pow-wa”) and he just let that word hang there for a good ten seconds before moving on to the rest of the sentence. People were leaning forward.

            Another is that we talked a lot about the dynamics that existed in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Asia now that the USSR had collapsed.

            The third was the difference between how governments deal with crises (there were acronyms here), how corporations deal with crises (there were acronyms here), and how the military deals with crises (S.O.P.! That’s the only one I remember).

            The last is that we discussed the different kinds of “Authority”.

            Not more more than that in the well.

            I don’t have anywhere near enough info to judge whether the professor is asking for something like “instead of saying ‘Johnny has two apples’, say ‘Xin, who is a lesbian, has two pears'” (which is reasonable enough, I suppose) or asking for something that even most of us would say is more appropriate for a fourth year Political Science Studies course than a second year Political Science course… but I don’t know how to best interpret “American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, middle-class status”.

            Does this comment assume as much?

            What would a comment assuming non-all-of-the-above look like instead?Report

        • Avatar MikeSchilling says:

          Heave you seen the way some people use numbers?Report

      • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

        For the record, I’d do fine on both classes.

        But then, I’m the guy who won’t stand for anything, so my principles are not in question because I don’t have any.Report

    • “Because if we (happy!) few here at the League writing in the way that we write would fail this political science course, I can’t help but wonder whether the problem wouldn’t be with the course’s expectations.”

      But then, we (happy!) few here aren’t taking a class in which one of the ground rules that we cannot assume x, y, z, to be normative. We have other ground rules at the League, although maybe less explicit than to be found in a syllabus.

      I think, as I believe Burt suggested, the issue might boil down to how the teacher enforces the rule.Report

      • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

        The LoOG has its own normative. So does every society or sub-society or group or clique. Butler U is just another arrogation–fictionalization–of society of the type that takes place behind ivy walls and in ivory towers.

        Better that Butler U teach people teach its charges how to behave like ladies and gentlemen out in the real world. Now that would be helpful.Report

        • Avatar James Hanley says:

          Better that Butler U teach people teach its charges how to behave like ladies and gentlemen out in the real world. Now that would be helpful.

          Hmm, I’d be inclined to say that teaching them to not think of others as abnormal is teaching them how to behave like ladies and gentlemen.Report

        • Avatar LWA (liberal With Attitude) says:

          I actually agree with you, about teaching them to be ladies and gentlemen; that is to say, teaching them social norms of behavior.

          But wouldn’t you consider that teaching social norms also demands that the student step outside their frame of reference, and view the world from the perspective of another?
          I mean, etiquette is really a way of thinking “How would I like to be treated, if I were female/ elderly/gay/someone other than who I am?”

          A lot of Political Correctness is really just a modern variation on societal norms, where certain words are considered vulgar and unnacceptable in polite discourse.

          As I mentioned in another thread, unfortunately we have impoverished our civil language to where we are only able to discuss norms in the language of individual rights, which creates the win-lose triumphalist situation, where my rights are inviolable, unless I can show “harm”, narrowly defined.Report

          • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

            Mr. Attitude, once again we regret to find ourselves in substantive agreement. I spend most of my time in fora like this–in fact all of my time, between the LoOG and my history digs and haunts.

            I AM diversity. In fact y’d be surprised how much private email I get from credentialed academical-type folks who envy me my intellectual liberty. I’m not running for anything, I’m not bucking for tenure. [The late great Reform Club blog had 3 PhDs writing pseudonymously out of fear of damaging their academic careers.]

            But wouldn’t you consider that teaching social norms also demands that the student step outside their frame of reference, and view the world from the perspective of another?
            I mean, etiquette is really a way of thinking “How would I like to be treated, if I were female/ elderly/gay/someone other than who I am?”

            A 200-level PoliSci course? No, that’s stealing the tuition money from the little knuckleheads’ parents for remedial Barney, or worse, indebting them to their student loan program for a sackful of PC beans.

            Y’know, people been dealing with gay people and women people and elderly people for quite awhile now in America. They are our friends, our family, our colleagues, our fellow citizens. Baron von Stueben was probably “that way,” but George Washington let him train our sad sack army and win the Revolution. Tocqueville in the 1830s idolizes the American woman—not on a European-style pedestal but as a fully realized human being. Our old? Well, we elected Ronald Reagan. Twice.

            I was just reading that Hollywood megalawyer Bert Fields is still going strong. And then there’s the Rolling Stones, average age older than the US Supreme Court!

            Hillary ’16?

            How to survive political correctness and groupthink with your wits intact, your ability to reason in the lefto roster of prepackaged arguments and clever hijacks of the language [“Choice!”], the predictable ad homs when you leave their tongues dragging in their own dirt, now that would be a class worth going in debt for.

            I’m available, LWA. I gotta start getting paid for this. Too many of these hacks are stealing their students’ money [or their parents’].

            How to Stand Up to Your Leftist Hack Teacher. Now that should be a required course. 101, if not Freshman Orientation.Report

            • Avatar James Hanley says:

              TVD, you keep making some big deal out of this being a “200 level” course. That’s wholly pointless. My colleague teaches our IR course at the 200 level. One of the things he does is randomly assign students to present on a particular issue from a particular IR view. So each year some poor schlub of a dude who just wants to get his SoSci requirement out of the way has to talk about Israel-Palestine from a Feminist point of view (or Iran and nukes from a Marxist pov, etc. etc.).

              This stuff is wholly appropriate for a 200 level political science course. You sit in your mcmansion/ranch house/L.A. bungalow pontificating on an academia of which you are wholly ignorant. You are absolutely in no position to say anything meaningful about what ought to be the substance of a 200 level course.

              And for god’s sake, as a research and analysis course, that 200 level course is geared toward professionalizing students into the discipline–it’s not just to teach students about the presidency, or how Congress passes laws; it’s about how to set about studying the real political world in the way that real political scientists do. Pushing yourself outside of your preconceived worldview is a requirement for doing that. I don’t like the way the prof allegedly wrote it on her syllabus, and I never would write it that way myself. But I sure as hell do make my students take that approach as they develop their research projects.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                Dr. Hanley, the LoOG blog functions best when you & I stick to our separate orbits. If you want to discuss something or anything for our mutual edification, our mutual friend Jonathan Rowe will forward any correspondence from you to me or from me to you.

                In the meantime, permit me to confess a preference for many or most of your arguments in the now LoOG-historic 600+-comment posts of late.

                And I don’t even agree with your sentiments. It’s just that as a disinterested party and non-litigant, I think you’ve been winning the debate, both in clarity and certainly in tone.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                the LoOG blog functions best when you & I stick to our separate orbits.

                Then maybe you should stop talking about political science courses, since that’s clearly my orbit. It takes a lot of hubris to come shit in my garden then tell me to stay out of yours.

                How about a deal. You don’t give your useless opinions about what political science courses ought to include, and I won’t give my useless opinion about how to play a good blue lick on the bass guitar. So far I’ve help up my end of the bargain.Report

    • Avatar Jeff No-Last-Name says:

      Because you’re not asked to do this (although I don’t think it would be a Bad Thing to do, as Mr Farmer immediately proves). Should one of the Gentlefolk endeavor to do this (as has been done more than once in my experience), it will be looked on as an interesting experiment, nothing more.

      Mr Lockwood was asked to go beyond his normal frame-of-reference. That is completely different.Report

      • Avatar Jaybird says:

        Jeff, it seems to me that there are a handful of (mutually exclusive) assumptions regarding the class. First and foremost is that all the professor is doing is asking the kids to try to imagine other viewpoints and perspectives. Heck, if that’s all that is going on, more power to her. Like James is doing a great job getting those Michitucky shitkickers to see their first revolving door, this professor is trying to get these little monsters to open their closed little minds. Even now, we pat ourselves on the back thinking about how this is doing the Lord’s work or whatever it is that we say these days. “Social Justice” or whatever. Sure, fine. If that’s all that is going on here, I’m sure that we’d all say that this lady deserves tenure and more funding. And, yes, the student is, in fact, a jerkface.

        I was thinking about this, though: “write and speak in a way that does not assume American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, middle-class status, etc. to be the norm”.

        There is a way that we here, at the League, do a great job of being open-minded. Certainly more open-minded than those Michitucky shitkickers! In another, however, we are pretty fuggin American (Shout Out to our Brethren from the Empire), Male (Shout Out to Rose), White (Shout Out to Murali), Heterosexual (Shout Out to Jason, Boegiboe, and Russell), and Middle-Class. And, yes, every single essay we have (even the ones on Political Science) reflect the ever-living shit out of that.

        Which brings me back to the other assumption I made: if the types of essays on political science we write here (and, quite honestly, I think that we do a hell of a job on the essays on political science we write here) do not meet the high standard of “write and speak in a way that does not assume American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, middle-class status”, then what?

        If nine out of ten of our essays here would not pass muster in her class, what does that say about us? About her class?

        Because it seems that the general assumption is that, hell, all she’s doing is asking the students to be open-minded to new points of view, that’s one thing… but when I read what she was asking, my first thought was that “we don’t do that here.”Report

        • Avatar Mopey Duns says:

          Good point, JB.

          Seems like the whole conversation is lacking in substantive information about the class.

          That is the problem with mental shorthand; it leads to different people sketching very different pictures from the same facts.Report

          • Avatar Burt Likko says:

            I looked and looked for a scan of the actual syllabus. Couldn’t find it on the Butler University website. Maybe your google-fu is better than mine.Report

            • Avatar Chris says:

              It doesn’t appear that anyone reporting on this has seen the syllabus.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                Well, the story isn’t about the syllabus. It’s about the student’s outrage. That’s the story.

                Whether or not the outraged is justified would be kind of important, but that’s not going to fit anybody’s narrative about whether the student is a jackass or the instructor is a feminazi.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                The idiot knew he was being played. Only a special kind of idiot didn’t walk out with him.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                Ah, see down below. I did not realize that the student in question was the author of the story in question.

                After reading the original article, I’ve come to the conclusion that the only thing I can say for certain is that Mr. Lovelace is not a good reporter.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                I think the only time I was ever outraged upon reading a syllabus was when I learned that the final paper would be worth 75% of my grade. That’s outrageous!

                I would like to know what the syllabus actually said, though. Like I said somewhere in the thread, depending on how it’s worded, this could simply be precisely the sort of stylistic prescriptions you find in the APA manual. Which makes me wonder whether conservative students find that outrageous.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                It should’ve been 100%?Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                “Whether or not the outraged is justified would be kind of important, but that’s not going to fit anybody’s narrative about whether the student is a jackass or the instructor is a feminazi.”

                This is sort of my point that I’m trying to get at with JB.

                A white male does something dastardly regarding his whiteness and maleness and he is labeled a “jackass”, an insult that doesn’t touch on his whiteness or his maleness.

                A black female does something dastardly regarding her blackness and femaleness and she is labeled a “feminazi”, an insult that touches directly on her femaleness.Report

              • Avatar Alan Scott says:

                Technically, Jackass is a male-specific term. But I definitely see your point.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                But it is not his maleness that is being called into question. It is his jackassery.

                For the professor, her gender is explicitly being commented on in the language being tossed around.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                And not just HER gender, but women more broadly and feminists in general.

                His flaws are unique to him, not emblematic of his race or his gender or his worldview.Report

              • Avatar Burt Likko says:

                Still, inclusiveness is important. A phrase like “whiney pseudo-victim” or “hypersensitive attention whore” could apply to a wide variety of people who trump up minor but ultimately inconsequential irritations with their professors into full-blown media protests. We could call pretty much anyone those names, not just white heterosexual men from middle-class backgrounds.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:


                Are you responding to me? If so, you lost me. I haven’t used any of those terms and don’t think they’re particularly useful for constructive dialogue (especially the latter).

                As I’ve said elsewhere, folks from dominant/majority cultures have the privilege of failing as individuals, while folks from marginalized/minority cultures tend to fail collectively. If this student is in the wrong, it won’t change most people’s opinions of white folks or males or heterosexuals in general. If the professor is wrong, it will make some folks change their opinion (or confirm their suspicions) of blacks or women or feminists and their work in the classroom.

                No one has yet suggested that we should keep conservative or privileged or male or heterosexual or white students out of the classroom. At least some folks have used this scenario to suggest that feminists* should be kept out.

                * And I don’t even know if this woman IS a feminist.Report

              • Avatar Burt Likko says:

                I was responding to both you and Alan Scott. With tongue in cheek.Report

        • Avatar sonmi451 says:

          So because you don’t do that here, her requirement must be unreasonable, because you guys are so awesome.Report

          • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

            Did you read that first paragraph?Report

          • Avatar Jaybird says:

            So because you don’t do that here, her requirement must be unreasonable, because you guys are so awesome.

            I am not saying that it automatically must be unreasonable. It does, however, seem to me to be exceptionally relevant that as we judge the kid for being jerky, we keep in mind that we don’t do what he said he didn’t want to do. Which strikes me as a fairly interesting point.

            I would say that any given essay here on Political Science could, after a little cleaning up, be handed in as an essay in any given 2nd year PoliSci class in the country… and, if it turns out, that that essay would be marked down because it’s fairly white, fairly male, fairly straight, and fairly middle-class, then *THAT* is an interesting thing going on.

            From my perspective, I’d prefer the kids to have a good grasp of Eastern Europe before we got into the meta-issues of whiteness, maleness, straightness, and middle-classness of talking about Eastern Europe.Report

            • Avatar Kazzy says:

              “From my perspective, I’d prefer the kids to have a good grasp of Eastern Europe before we got into the meta-issues of whiteness, maleness, straightness, and middle-classness of talking about Eastern Europe.”

              At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that is easy for you to say, as straight, middle-class white male.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                Why do we send kids to college? Why do we go into six figures worth of debt to send kids to college?Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                Everyone has their reasons. It seems as if you are suggesting your reasons (i.e., to gain a good grasp of Eastern Europe) ought to be everyone’s.

                If you are a black student sitting in that class, I imagine you have a much more pressing interest in your classmates learning to deal with their whiteness, etc.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                Two reasons, mostly.

                1) To receive an education (perhaps even a classical one!)
                2) Because a fuggin’ piece of paper is a fuggin’ box you must check before they let you join the Middle Class

                If we have people leaving PoliSci courses knowing more about why thinking about Eastern Europe is White, Male, Heterosexual, and Middle Class than about Eastern Europe, I daresay that we are creating people who will not be hired into White, Male, Heterosexual, and Middle Class kinda jobs… which, it seems to me, is the carrot that we’ve been holding in front of the kids’ noses.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Eastern Europe has a pretty serious problem with skinheads and shiny happy nationalist thugs, not exactly the most PeeCee of people. They don’t like gays a-tall. Russia doesn’t allow for same sex marriage. There are laws against publicly advocating for gay rights.

                Seems to me that might be a bit more useful than knowing the Don River flows into the Sea of Azov.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                The problem with this is that your #2 suggests that the paragraph you wrote after it is wrong, or at least irrelevant.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                So we should perpetuate the status quo?

                For what it’s worth, I don’t know if the professor’s approach is necessary the best one. Dr. Lisa Delpit argues that we should neither teacher students from marginalized groups to wholly conform or wholly rebel. Rather, arm them with the knowledge and skills to enter the culture of power AND the knowledge and skills to change it from within once they are there. Perhaps that is what this teacher was attempting. Again, we don’t know because all we have is one aggrieved person’s perspective to work from.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                The problem with this is that your #2 suggests that the paragraph you wrote after it is wrong, or at least irrelevant.

                Dunno about that. Part of the whole “middle class” thing is the “middle class job” thing. So you want a job in PoliSci. What’s available? Eliding over the whole “well, you can teach it” thing (and turn Political Science into joining Amway), I’m thinking various analyst jobs.

                So we’re at the interview. There’s an interviewer across the table. He says “We’re very interested in what’s going on with Eastern Europe. What can you tell me about the Balkans?”

                Assume two candidates who give answers similar to the following. Which do you think is more likely to be hired:

                A) When do you want me to start from? I’ll start with today and go back until you want me to stop. Today in the Hague, the trial against (so-and-so) was concluded (to thunderous applause) when it was found that they couldn’t prove Crimes against Humanity. The trial was for events that transpired back in…

                B) My emphasis was on doing my best to not assume American-ness, Whiteness, Maleness, Heterosexuality, or Middle-Classness. As should yours be, if you want our society to improve.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                So we should perpetuate the status quo?

                Perpetuation of the status quo is one of the goals, yes. If you want to challenge the system, it seems best to not spend six figures first. Better to just challenge it.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Jay, of course if you want to understand what’s going on in Eastern Europe, not assuming American-ness (whatever the fuck that is) is probably a good thing.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                Which brings me back to something I said earlier:

                We don’t know what was meant by the “whatever the heck that means” portion of the syllabus.

                If all we mean is “if you want to understand Eastern Europe, you must first understand what it means to be Prussian…” (or some similar preamble), then, by all means!, I’m pretty sure that every single head will nod. Absolutely.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:


                Doesn’t your interview scenario assume the interviewer is a white middle class straight American male?

                Imagine your Poli Sci jobs involving speaking with filks who don’t fit that mold. Suddenly having that skill set, to be able to communicate in a more inclusive way, doesn’t seem so silly.

                Also, you are indulging a bit of a false dilemma. The teacher isn’t eskewing the curriculum to teach communication skills. She is simply laying out her expectations for communication while students are engaging the curriculum. Not unlike a prof indicating they want APA style instead of MLA.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Kazzy, on top of that, it’s a methods course (research an analysis) that is designed to teach poli sci students to find, evaluate, and write about information relevant to political science. You’re not supposed to be learning about Eastern Europe in that course. You’re supposed to be learning about how to learn about Eastern Europe.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                Doesn’t your interview scenario assume the interviewer is a white middle class straight American male?

                I was thinking about Condi asking the question.

                Does that change anything?Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                Sure… You just assumed the perspective of a black woman, something I’m pretty sure you’ve steadfastly argued you wouldn’t or couldn’t do. Is it possible that Condi would respond differently than your hypothetical (formed in the psyche of a white male) suggests?

                Also, what Chris said.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                You’re not allowed to stereotype how a [fill in minority] thinks but God help you if you don’t.

                They got you coming and going.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                What? JB said he couldn’t/wouldn’t do something and then did it. I’m not commenting on the doing of it. I’m commenting and the inconsistency.

                Also, there is a difference between saying, “I think this person would respond this way based on what I know about her,” and “I think this person would respond this way because that is how I’d respond.” I don’t know which JB did. If it is the former, we are back to inconsistency. If the latter, then we should examine the privilege he’s indulging in.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                How’s about Hillary Clinton, then?

                Perhaps this is a teachable moment for me:

                Could you provide me an example of a job interview example for a new polysci grad that would be less American, heterosexual, white, male, and middle-class that I should have provided instead?Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                I’ve never interviewed for a PoliSci job, nor even taken a PoliSci class. My point is that you seem to be assuming folks interviewing candidates for PoliSci jobs will be more interested in their knowledge of Eastern Europe than in their ability to communicate in an inclusive manner.

                Let me put it this way. I work in a female dominated industry. Not only has education long been the province of women, but we are now seeing those woman working their way into administrative positions more than in the pass, meaning my professional world has a very different mindset and worldview than most others.

                We often get candidates, male candidates, who are fresh out of college. These guys are often highly skilled and knowledgeable. But they interview poorly. Why? Because they come in in a manner and with a worldview that is not particularly welcomed. This manner and worldview is largely formed by their race and gender, though age certainly has something to do with it. How do I know? I was one of those guys. But I avoided many of the pitfalls of my comrades because I had a mother who was a teacher who was able to coach me in this area. I couldn’t be as assertive and aggressive as I might otherwise be; I couldn’t speak in absolutes or from a position of authority; I couldn’t be dismissive of things such as camaraderie, collegiality, and culture. I couldn’t do the sorts of things that young, fresh-out-college white guys tend to do on interviews, which is throw all their book learning at the interviewer, present confidence-bordering-on-arrogance, and assume the job was theirs for the taking. And we didn’t not hire these guys because the interview left a sour taste in our mouths; we did it because we knew the interview was likely just the tip of the iceberg. They were likely going to carry themselves in such a way as they performed their job, which, again, they were likely fairly good at.

                They were entering an environment in which the male worldview and manner-of-being was not the norm. And because they didn’t have inclusive interpersonal skills, they drowned.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                The only jobs I’ve interviewed for are IT jobs. Those tend to go a certain way each time. “So… tell me about a time that a system crashed and wouldn’t come back up.” I have friends who tell me about interviews they’ve had where they had to write a program on the fly, watch it compile, then watch it do what the interviewers asked for the program to do.

                The people behind the desk were checking for bullshit each time. “Well, the first thing I checked was whether the ball bearings were low.”

                They wanted to know whether I was familiar with computer systems, of course, but passing that test led to questions about whether I had people skills (dammit!) and whether I would fit in with a particular group.

                I assume that a corporation that needs entry-level analysts would use the interview to: weed out egregious bullshit and make sure that the person had something approaching a pleasant personality.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                But do you see, in my example, how certain folks would be better served had they learned to communicate inclusively? That this might have enriched their educational experience and, as a result, their job prospects?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                Sure. There are personality traits that you don’t mind in an analyst that you avoid in a teacher (and vice-versa).

                I imagine that the teaching interview asked you to jump the bullshit hurdle and demonstrate a pleasant enough personality.

                I imagine that all interviews do that, to some extent.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                How entangled are these personality traits with maleness, or whiteness, or heterosexualness?

                And I’m not really sure we’re talking personality traits. It was communication styles. These guys weren’t bad guys. Or stupid guys. But they walked into the room and spoke as if they were speaking to a bunch of men. But they weren’t. They were speaking to a bunch of women. And most couldn’t adjust. So their communication style failed them, not their personality.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                When I’m interviewing people for IT stuff, I look over their resume, check teh Google and LinkedIn and do a background check. I want to know these guys before I ever talk to them.

                I say “Try to forget this is an interview. Technology changes every few years anyway. I’m giving you five minutes to toot your own horn. I want to know what you’re really good at in life and why anyone should pay you money to do it. Doesn’t have to be about software, but it might be. Nobody lives to code. Life taught you something. Tell me what you learned.”

                Then I listen and encourage them to talk. I want the discussion to reveal who they think they are, not what the resume says. I get the most amazing responses.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                I’m just white, male, and straight enough to see “the ability to change one’s communication style” as a skill exceptionally relevant to teaching.

                If the guys couldn’t change how they communicated, they were demonstrating that you asked a question that they couldn’t bullshit their way out of.

                Which is a good thing.

                Now, if it is the case that this was, really, a trivial (though off-putting) thing that wouldn’t have impact upon their jobs (which they’d be really good at otherwise), then these people are shooting themselves and, of course, the children, in the foot. And that’s another discussion right there.

                At this moment in time, however, I’m willing to say that a question designed to suss out the semiotics such as “I can demonstrate competence in communication” is doing one heck of a job… and, yeah, other industries do that too.

                Now Blaise is approaching it from a different approach than I.

                I’ve always been on the wrong side of the desk.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                Hiring hint from a headhunter: Women don’t like being interrupted.

                The male conversational style is fine with it, like a baton passed back & forth, the baton pass meaning you understood me and are ready to move ahead.

                For women, perhaps in no small part because they’re used to being interrupted by men—and are never heard from again unless they push their way back into the conversation— interrupting is an inexcusable rudeness.

                You want to punt an interview with womenfolk present? Act like a guy.

                For those who need this dumbed down to college level:


              • Avatar MikeSchilling says:

                Tom, is there a regional component to that? It’s well-attested that East Coasters interrupt each other constantly as a normal part of conversation, while we West Coasters, being more laid-back, let other people finish their sentences. And that this causes a lot of misunderstanding:

                “What a rude bastard! He won’t let me get a word in.”

                “He’s just sitting there with that vacant smile, like I’m boring the crap out of him”.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                It’s possible, Mike. As a transplant meself, I’d say Eastern conversational style among men is definitely more aggressive. The insult is the polite form of address, eh?

                I have noticed that a lot of the movers-and-shakers I’ve come across in law and in the entertainment biz here in CA have an Eastern background; although a bit mellowed, the sharpness of the elbows rounded off a bit, the Easterners have a spark that your average Eagles listener achieves only with a beakful of blow.

                As for interviewing with women, I’d think it’s fairly a constant. The flow is different and men ignore it at their peril.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:


                No questions were asked to get at it. They wore their privilege on their sleeve.

                I really think you’re missing what I’m saying here. These people could not work with their potential colleagues because their potential colleagues were not all white males. They lacked cultural competency. This isn’t a personality flaw. It is a fundamental flaw in their worldview which, to that point, was unchallenged.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                I’d hire the one who knows the full picture. You don’t get the full picture by trying to see it from a WASPy perspective. Hell, then you get papers like “Republicans won all the Swing Groups yet lost the election”. Because the Swing Groups were cherrypicked to be white.Report

              • So we’re at the interview. There’s an interviewer across the table. He says “We’re very interested in what’s going on with Eastern Europe. What can you tell me about the Balkans?”******

                Here’s how the interview probably goes in real life (judging from an interview I had for an adjunct job to teach history):

                “Oh, so you volunteered teaching ESL at X free school in [my home town], my sister used to volunteer there. By the way, you’re going to see a lot of student who come from families who have never been to college, or for whom English isn’t their firs language. How are you going to deal with that?”

                How would that work for a national security government-y type of job (which presumably some PoliSci people want)? I don’t know. But whatever I had learned sure helped me to see things from other perspectives. (I got hired on the spot, by the way, even though they had already interviewed two other people. So I must’ve had the answers they were looking for. Obviously there’s an element of arbitrariness in there. How was I supposed to know in 2001 that volunteering at X free school would help me get a job in 2008?)Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                I’ve heard of interviews that go something like “oh, you know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy… yeah, he vouches for you. Says you have crazy bullshit political views but if you can keep those under your hat, you should be fine. Welcome aboard” and I have no idea what to do about those. Libertarian theory is that you wouldn’t need to rely upon so many semiotics if it were easier to fire people but the unskilled need the protections more than the skilled would benefit from not having to rely on knowing a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                it’s not always about “easier to fire” its about the pain in the ass of hiring. which is interviewing, and tryign to find the “not too bullshitty” folks.Report

            • Avatar BlaiseP says:

              Look, there are abusive terms of art unwittingly used by Americans, males, whites, heterosexuals, middle-class folks, etc. Maybe I see things a little differently: James observes part of a good education is travel. You care about Eastern Europe, think that’s an important aspect of an education and I entirely agree. The Polish people are what the French only think they are.

              Remember that old New Yorker map of the world? Neither of us knows what the instructor’s actual directives were: we only have the word of Lovelace. But this much seems clear, when Americans write “we” in a sentence, implying Americans, that conflates all foreigners around here into such a statement. When we talk about “everyone” we might think of what women might read into what’s being discussed. As for “the gays”, even at a sexual level, gay only implies male homosexuals, hence the use of LGBT. Middle class views, hey, do you want to sound like David Brooks? Of course you don’t.

              Most of this is common sense. Most people obey these rules without even thinking very much about it. If Eastern Europe matters, and it does, remember what you write might be read by someone from there.Report

        • Avatar wardsmith says:

          @Jaybird, about a year ago you posted a link to a site that reads your text and says whether (or IIRC) how much it is like a female vs male author. Do you still have it in your bookmarks or do I have to figure out some Google-Fu to find it? The problem is – it being a year ago much of the context has gone down my personal memory hole.Report

  2. Avatar BlaiseP says:

    David Foster Wallace wrote about this in his essay, Tense Present:

    These arguments are hard to make — not intellectually but emotionally, politically. Because they are baldly elitist. [38] The real truth, of course, is that [Standard Written English] SWE is the dialect of the American elite. That it was invented, codified, and promulgated by Privileged WASP Males and is perpetuated as “Standard” by same. That it is the shibboleth of the Establishment and an instrument of political power and class division and racial discrimination and all manner of social inequity. These are shall we say rather delicate subjects to bring up in an English class, especially in the service of a pro-SWE argument, and extra-especially if you yourself are both a Privileged WASP Male and the Teacher and thus pretty much a walking symbol of the Adult Establishment. This reviewer’s opinion, though, is that both students and SWE are better served if the teacher makes his premises explicit, licit and his argument overt, presenting himself as an advocate of SWE’s utility rather than as a prophet of its innate superiority.

    Because this argument is both most delicate and (I believe) most important with respect to students of color, here is one version of a spiel I’ve given in private conference [39] with certain black students who were (a) bright and inquisitive and (b) deficient in what U.S. higher education considers written English facility:

    I don’t know whether anybody’s told you this or not, but when you’re in a college English class you’re basically studying a foreign dialect. This dialect is called ‘Standard Written English. … From talking with you and reading your essays, I’ve concluded that your own primary dialect is [one of three variants of SBE common to our region]. Now, let me spell something out in my official Teacher-voice:

    The SBE you’re fluent in is different from SWE in all kinds of important ways. Some of these differences are grammatical — for example, double negatives are OK in Standard Black English but not in SWE, and SBE and SWE conjugate certain verbs in totally different ways. Other differences have more to do with style — for instance, Standard Written English tends to use a lot more subordinate clauses in the early parts of sentences, and it sets off most of these early subordinates with commas, and, under SWE rules, writing that doesn’t do this is “choppy.” There are tons of differences like that. How much of this stuff do you already know?

    [STANDARD RESPONSE: some variation on “I know from the grades and comments on my papers that English profs don’t think I’m a good writer.”]

    Well, I’ve got good news and bad news. There are some otherwise smart English profs who aren’t very aware that there are real dialects of English other than SWE, so when they’re reading your papers they’ll put, like, “Incorrect conjugation” or “Comma needed” instead of “SWE conjugates this verb differently” or “SWE calls for a comma here.” That’s the good news — it’s not that you’re a bad writer, it’s that you haven’t learned the special rules of the dialect they want you to write in. Maybe that’s not such good news, that they were grading you down for mistakes in a foreign language you didn’t even know was a foreign language. That they won’t let you write in SBE. Maybe it seems unfair. If it does, you’re not going to like this news: I’m not going to let you write in SBE either. In my class, you have to learn and write in SWE. If you want to study your own dialect and its rules and history and how it’s different from SWE, fine — there are some great books by scholars of Black English, and I’ll help you find some and talk about them with you if you want. But that will be outside class. In class — in my English class — you will have to master and write in Standard Written English, which we might just as well call “Standard White English,” because it was developed by white people and is used by white people, especially educated, powerful white people.

    [RESPONSES by this point vary too widely to standardize.]

    I’m respecting you enough here to give you what I believe is the straight truth. In this country, SWE is perceived as the dialect of education and intelligence and power and prestige, and anybody of any race, ethnicity, religion, or gender who wants to succeed in American culture has got to be able to use SWE. This is How It Is. You can be glad about it or sad about it or deeply pissed off. You can believe it’s racist and unjust and decide right here and now to spend every waking minute of your adult life arguing against it, and maybe you should, but I’ll tell you something: If you ever want those arguments to get listened to and taken seriously, you’re going to have to communicate them in SWE, because SWE is the dialect our country uses to talk to itself. African Americans who’ve become successful and important in U.S. culture know this; that’s why King’s and X’s and Jackson’s speeches are in SWE, and why Morrison’s and Angelou’s and Baldwin’s and Wideman’s and West’s books are full of totally ass-kicking SWE, and why black judges and politicians and journalists and doctors and teachers communicate professionally in SWE. Some of these people grew up in homes and communities where SWE was the native dialect, and these black people had it much easier in school, but the ones who didn’t grow up with SWE realized at some point that they had to learn it and
    become able to write in it, and so they did. And [INSERT NAME HERE], you’re going to learn to use it, too, because I am going to make you.

    I should note here that a couple of the students I’ve said this stuff to were offended — one lodged an Official Complaint — and that I have had more than one colleague profess to find my spiel “racially insensitive.” Perhaps you do, too. My own humble opinion is that some of the cultural and political realities of American life are themselves racially insensitive and elitist and offensive and unfair, and that pussyfooting around these realities with euphemistic doublespeak is not only hypocritical but toxic to the project of ever actually changing them. Such pussyfooting has of course now achieved the status of a dialect — one powerful enough to have turned the normal politics of the Usage Wars sort of inside out.Report

    • Avatar Stillwater says:

      That’s awesome Blaise. DFW FTW!Report

    • Avatar Lyle says:

      Actually here you could cite the UK as an example, where the dialects vary more. Standard English is considered that used on the BBC and the like. Cockney definitely for example does not qualify, nor does the Scottish dialect.
      Another example might be to point out that Chinese has a single written language, and multiple (some not mutually understandable ) spoken dialects.

      In German the “official language” is High German, but the folks in north germany speak what is called low german with different pronounciations of words.
      In all these cases there was a dialect established as the standard written language, and indeed in many as the standard spoken language.Report

    • Avatar Mopey Duns says:


      Lots to think about there.

      At first I want to argue that SWE allows greater clarity of language and precision of thought, but then I start thinking about how all language is essentially a shared convention and how difficult it is to judge between linguistic groups, particularly dialects, in that respect. Something that appears unclear may not actually be so to an initiate.

      Imma put on my thinkin cap.Report

      • Avatar Kim says:

        English is standardized chaos, as open source and additive as it comes. Memes drift into English as easily as anything. because English, when it comes down to it, is about communication.

        Now, dialect? Dialect communicates as well. It communicates who is family, and who is not. Chomsky’s the classic source on this, and as batty as he sometimes is, his research is still good.Report

  3. Avatar Will Truman says:

    Maybe I haven’t clicked through enough links, but what I am not quite grasping from the outrage and the outrage-at-the-outrage is a good solid example of what would be a wrong thing to do by this suggestion and what it would look like if done the right way. And the extent to which this is an across-the-board expectation (as in, we shouldn’t be making assumptions about who constitutes “we”) or whether it is specifically intended to re-balance the scale by having some expectations here but not over there to counterbalance societal prejudices.

    I can think of some examples in my head that would be worthy of concern or an eyeroll, and I can think of some examples that are not only reasonable but something good for everybody to consider.Report

  4. Avatar Murali says:

    Let’s not talk about us. Almost all of us FPers are guys and almost all of us are white. And of the FPers a similar proportion are heterosexual. Almost all of the FPers are American as well. Since we are writing on a blog and not an academic paper, our language is more casual and therefore more likely to fail the standards of the pol-sci course.

    Can well curated wikipedia articles pass the course? (in terms of minimal language standards). Will critical theorists of various stripes read wikipedia articles and come away without snickering at “NPOV”? Is it even possible to use language without situating oneself as black or white or brown, male or female, cis-gendered or trans, heterosexual, homosexual or asexual, American or Canadian or Malaysian? It seems that if the crit studies people are right, then we cannot avoid situating ourself within some arbitrary perspective. But then any even if wrong (as in not meeting up to the intellectual ideals of neutrality) it is still a blameless kind of wrong.Report

    • Avatar greginak says:

      I think the point of an excersize is to learn about language and words. I dont’ think any of the FP’s or posters would pass this course. But we’re not in the course. That doesn’t mean it isn’t good to learn and improve. I’ll repeat my question that i posed above:

      Has anybody ever said debate teams are indoctrination because they push people to argue positions they don’t hold?

      Doesn’t debating teach various skills even if one is debating a view they don’t hold?Report

    • Avatar BlaiseP says:

      The English language can tolerate all sorts of idiosyncrasies. It’s a crazy language, a train wreck of Saxon and French and the flotsam of a hundred other languages. English doesn’t have gendered nouns. English has gendered pronouns, but we don’t use our gender-neutral pronoun “it” to describe people by convention.

      The Crit Studies people are simply wretched writers. If they want gender neutral writing, have their word processing software replace “he” and “she” with “it” routinely. Problem solved. As for all this Inclusive Language crapola, give the student an Inclusive Language Manual of Style and grade to that if you want. That’s where these Crit Studies people annoy me no end. They want to enforce rules of style without going to the trouble of actually defining them.Report

      • Avatar greginak says:

        I don’t disagree with you Blaise. But as a writing and thinking exercise i can’t see a problem with this. If someone wants to be a writer, like the lovelace guy, then you should be focusing a hell of a lot on language.Report

        • Avatar BlaiseP says:

          Heh. If I was Lovelace, I wouldn’t be writing on a site where the President’s head was crudely photoshopped onto a painting of Lenin, with the title “Obama! Socialismo o Muerte” within the first few divs.

          And I wouldn’t have a photograph of an unshaved ROTC cadet on my own article. But that’s just me.

          If I took my own Red Pencil out, I might have to criticise the run-on sentence in the first paragraph. I might also point out almost all the paragraphs in that article are single sentences. While we’re at it, the professor wasn’t named, but she was called Black and Female.

          This Lovelace is a non-writing schlub. What is this bullshit sentence? Being judged and forced to act a certain way is antithetical to how any institution of higher education should conduct itself.. In standard English, you know, we need a goddamn subject for every sentence. The institution is judging and forcing and we don’t need that dumbass infinitive “Being” to start that out. “An institution of higher learning should not judge students or force them to behave in a certain way.” But of course, that’s exactly what institutions of higher learning do all the time: judge students’ work and oblige them to obey the rules in the student handbook. Once we’ve unpacked this dreadful sentence, it seems Mr. Lovelace is advocating for some Hippie-Dippy Philosophy wherein all is permitted and nothing denied.

          It’s all too stupid for words.Report

          • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

            Valid criticisms, Blaise, but it’s a PoliSci class.Report

            • Avatar James Hanley says:

              Jesus, Tom, quit talking about things you don’t know shit about. Every one of my PoliSci classes demands that students write well. And I make that demand because my students have to know how to communicate knowledge. As I tell them, if you don’t write well, people will assume you’re stupid. It won’t matter that you’re not stupid, people will assume it anyway.

              And in a PoliSci class, if you can’t put yourself in others’ shoes to understand how they see the world, you’re never going to get a complete understanding of the subject. I had a liberal student in my political economy class last year–should I have just praised her liberal views about the evils of capitalism and free trade? Hell, no. I not only forced her to look at it as an economist would look at it, I also forced her to think about who in the economic equation she wasn’t considering. E.g., when she complained about big banana corp outcompeting the family banana farm because of free trade, I made her think about the poor family that wanted to buy bananas. It’s not just about the conservative seeing how a liberal thinks, or a white guy seeing how a black woman thinks; it’s about understanding that one’s own instinctive view of the world is not “the” sum total correct view.

              You irritate me to no end when you start talking about how college education is supposed to work, because you just don’t really get it. You have a piss poor understanding of how a real education really works.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot3 says:

                Well put.

                I think the best exercise is to have students write down what they think and then list all the reasons (with explanations) that suggest that they are (or could be) wrong.

                Democracy is just? Why isn’t it?Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                I have this theory about how to teach good writing. I’d have student sit down with an excerpt from a recorded book and literally type what he hears. Once that’s done, the student reads the written text, as it was read to him, corrects all his spelling errors and punctuation and moves on to the next passage.

                There was a day when people would gather around to hear a story read to them. They’d go to plays and hear mighty prose. Poetry was once the province of manly men, there’s the James Joyce pub in Durham NC, where people get slobbering drunk and read Heaney and Yeats and tears run down their face. That’s living with words.

                Nobody can possibly write without that voice in his head, that inner cadence which rejects flabby prose on principle, that knows how to organise a paragraph, that shamelessly apes his betters, that rolls around words like a horse on his back in a sunny meadow. When we’re talking, we know these things. Why, then, do so many people write so stupidly? Because their ears aren’t in it.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                And you haven’t done bananas much justice unless you’ve mentioned “Yes, we have no bananas”Report

        • Avatar zic says:

          His problem isn’t his ability to write so much as an unwillingness to attempt empathy.

          Perhaps technical manuals. But even dry business journalism benefits from empathy and willingness to push against your biases.Report

      • Avatar M.A. says:

        “English doesn’t borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them in the back of the had, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.”Report

    • Avatar Kim says:

      Considering that certain computers edit wikipedia articles routinely, it is indeed possible to use language without sitting in one bucket or another (I’m told their linguistic capabilities sound Chinese, so their bits are routinely rewritten).
      That last parenthetical? What does it say about our need to ascribe meaning to things that don’t have it in the first place?Report

  5. Avatar MikeSchilling says:

    When I was an undergraduate, lo, these many years ago, I graded the homework for a class that performed the construction of the real numbers. That is starting with the primitive notions of “zero” and “successor of”, there’s a standard way to construct first the natural numbers (0, 1 ,2 etc.), the integers (add in negative numbers), the rational numbers (fractions), and finally the real numbers (add numbers that aren’t fractions, like pi and the square root of two.) That’s four completely different number systems. For each one, it’s necessary to prove things like “a + b = b + a”. The facts that we’ve known this since childhood and that we proved them last week for a different numer system are irrelevant.

    This freaked most of the students out. They weren’t mathematically mature enough to separate “true in this system” from “true”, and they really didn’t understand that (say) the integers as constructed were entirely different from the natural numbers as constructed, so that you can’t assume they have anything in common, so you have to prove it.

    It feels to me like Lovelace has the same issues.Report

  6. Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

    If I’d wanted a course in left-wing gibberish, I’d have ordered a course in left-wing gibberish.

    Speaking of Turing tests,

    1. Realities of collapse

    In the works of Gibson, a predominant concept is the distinction between opening and closing. Several deappropriations concerning deconstructivist subconstructive theory may be discovered.

    “Sexual identity is part of the paradigm of truth,” says Debord. In a sense, Brophy holds that the works of Gibson are reminiscent of Smith. Sontag promotes the use of dialectic objectivism to read sexuality.

    “Class is a legal fiction,” says Foucault; however, according to Bailey, it is not so much class that is a legal fiction, but rather the stasis, and some would say the absurdity, of class. It could be said that if neodeconstructive sublimation holds, we have to choose between Lyotardist narrative and Sartreist existentialism. An abundance of narratives concerning the role of the artist as reader exist.

    The above was created with

    • Avatar Burt Likko says:

      That there is an abundance of vapid academicleftyspeak out there is not reasonably subject to debate. It is not at all clear to me that asking students to be inclusive in their language is the same thing as demanding academicleftyspeak.Report

      • Avatar Chris says:

        It’s not even close to it. Oddly, this is not far from the standards of the American Psychological Association, which no one seems to get up in arms about. The idea is that, if you treat certain things as the norm, you won’t be able to objectively evaluate either those things or things that are different from them, particularly if the things you’re treating as the norm correlate highly with the facts of the matter about you.

        That Tom thinks this is a great offense is, well, indicative of his ability to evaluate information objectively.Report

      • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

        A whole semester’s worth of PC, with our shocking ignorance of basic civics???!!!

        February 5, 2010
        College Makes Students More Liberal, but Not Smarter About Civics
        By Jill Laster
        While many graduates of American colleges cannot answer basic civics questions, a higher education does make their opinions more liberal on controversial social issues, according to a new report issued on Friday by an academic think tank.

        The Intercollegiate Studies Institute, an independent group with a tradition-minded view of issues, asked about 2,500 randomly selected people more than 100 questions to gauge their civic knowledge, public philosophy, civic behavior, and demographics.

        “The Shaping of the American Mind,” the fourth report from the institute on civic literacy, will be formally released on Wednesday.

        Richard A. Brake, a co-author of the report, said he and his colleagues had sought to see what civic or social lessons students were learning in college.

        The institute found that people who had attained at least a bachelor’s degree were more likely than Americans whose formal education ended with a high-school diploma to take a liberal stance on certain controversial social issues. For example, 39 percent of people whose highest level of education was a bachelor’s degree supported same-sex marriage, compared with 25 percent with a high-school diploma. The trend continued with advanced degrees: About 46 percent of people with master’s degrees supported same-sex marriage, as did 43 percent of people with Ph.D.’s.

        Previous surveys have found that, in general, college does not bring students up to a high level of civics knowledge. According to the institute’s 2008 report, based on a survey of 2,500, people whose highest level of educational attainment was a bachelor’s degree correctly answered 57 percent of the questions, on average. That is three percentage points lower than a passing grade, according to the survey’s authors.

        Even earlier surveys showed that years in college were only slightly correlated to civics expertise. For a 2006 report the institute surveyed 14,000 college freshmen and seniors on basic civics questions. It found seniors answered an average of 53 percent of the questions correctly, just 1.5 percent higher than freshmen. (After the 2006 report was released, some experts questioned the study’s methodology and focus on a small range of facts.)

        Mr. Brake said results of the studies in the last four years showed that many universities do not place enough emphasis on civics or the basics of American history. He also called for universities to adopt better-balanced curricula.

        “College graduates, whether it be current or graduated in the past, seem to have difficulty knowing basic things about our government and our history,” Mr. Brake said. “Does college share all the blame? Of course not — this is a systemic problem, from K through 12 and all the way up. But universities train our teachers and train our leaders, so they play a role.”


        • Avatar Chris says:

          Odd, when PPP, which was one of the most accurate polling firms during the last election cycle, says something you dismiss it as the product of a liberal outfit, but when you see a study by a conservative think tank, it must be true.

          I don’t know how you manage all of that dissonance, dude, but you are an expert at it.Report

          • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

            Because PPP was clearly making trouble, looking to embarrass the GOP with an irrelevant question, a question that was settled by the Supreme Court in 1967 with Loving v. Virginia. Neither does a single poll make clear that there wasn’t “signalling” going on, as in FU, you liberal assholes.

            Now if you have anything intelligent to add [doubtful] about what I’m actually writing about—the civic ignorance of college students—do. Otherwise get off my back.Report

            • Avatar greginak says:

              So asking a question about something that was settled by The Supremes is off base. Then i assume asking a question about abortion is off limits? And also imminent domain, the 2nd amendment, etc.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Precisely. Polling outfits ask questions about “settled law” all of the time, because the relationship between “settled law” and subsequent attitudes is an interesting topic, both politically and as a matter of social science.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Except, I should say, when doing so is embarrassing to conservatives, because heaven forbid we find out what they think.Report

              • Avatar MikeSchilling says:

                And ObamaCare. It’s constitutional. Period. End of discussion.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                Did they ask potentially embarassing questions of Democrats, like the CIA creating AIDS to exterminate the black man? Do the Jews run everything?

                Of course not. And there’s also the question of “signalling.” Is Barack Obama the antiChrist? Put me down for “Strongly Agree” then go fuck yourself.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                I’ll bet conservtives are more likely to believe the anti-semitic stuff. (Old WASPS were the anti-semites in the day, and are heavily Republican now, and those attitudes die slowly.)

                Being pro-Israel to support end times prophecy, or because you are Islamophobic and want to bomb those Arab Iranians, is consistent with you being anti-Semitic. Very much so.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                I bet not. But thanks for almost thinking about what I wrote. Progress.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                Give an argument and I’ll respond with interest as I do to Roger or Hanley. (Smart guys who I would be happy to meet and have a beer with and talk to and argue with till morning, even if we disagree on literally everything.)

                You blather and make backhanded comments that you think are cute. You imply that you hold a position and then take it back and claim victim status.There is nothing to respond to except to point out that some of your supposedly cute little comments come close to sexism and racism and a high-degree of ignorance.

                And you don’t belong on the masthead.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                You almost got the point and almost responded honestly, sir. Cheers.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                even if we disagree on literally everything

                You mean you’re a Yankees fan? Good lord, there’s no way I could have a beer with you, then.Report

              • Avatar MikeSchilling says:

                Watching your guys dismantle the Yankees was one of the great joys of the post-season.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                FUCK yea, someone did that one on AIDS. The AA response is REALLY fucking interesting, and really fucking frightening.

                But what will that and a bucket of Crystal Pepsi get you?
                *bip* *bip* *bip*
                I suppose it depends on where you’re living, now don’t it?Report

            • Avatar Chris says:

              Dude, they were asking a legitimate question about attitudes towards interracial marriage. That you don’t see it as a legitimate question is pretty much irrelevant. Do you doubt the results because it was a liberal outfit? Or do you doubt the results because they asked the question in the first place? If it’s the former, see my previous comment. If it’s the latter, you’ll have to explain this further, because you’re making a claim about how people respond to the question. It would be interesting, however, apply the same level of analysis to the studies with which you agree as well, though (in other words, see the previous comment).Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                It’s an obvious plot to embarrass and “smear” conservatives by asking conservatives what they really believe and giving them the chance to say it out loud where everyone can hear.

                Or that’s the best I can deduce from TvD’s half-coherent ravings on the subject.

                TvD says Loving v. Virginia is settled law. Well, so is Roe v. Wade but the GOP are always trying to repeal or circumvent that, too. Under TvD’s theory, polling shouldn’t ask about abortion rights either because those are settled under Roe – but we continue to do so on that issue as well, because abortion rights are just as relevant as civil rights and racial relations today.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                Yes, it was an obvious plot to embarrass conservatives. There is no call for re-banning interracial marriage–unlike Roe and abortion, it’s a settled issue.

                It’s a red herring, and a cudgel for liberals to beat their ideological enemies with.

                PPP is a Dem organization, and as noted—there were zero questions were the result would have been to embarrass Democrats, such as the CIA/AIDS psychosis, or attitudes towards Jews.

                Using PPP’s hackery to attack and embarrass is neither helpful nor principled, intended to inflame, not inform. Feh.Report

              • Of course, it doesn’t exactly help that so many Republicans played along by giving the embarrassing answer.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                It is the Stupid Party, that’s so. I more object to its trolling effect in this forum, if you follow me here.Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                “This inartfully stated dirty liberal smear is a truthful expression of Mitt Romney’s political philosophy, and it is a winner.”

                I can’t listen to TvD any more without thinking about that. Stewart had that crowd dead to rights.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                This little subthread has turned into a race to the bottom.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Ooops, I embedded improperly. I mean the one with the whole “Your side has no ideas!” “No, your side has no ideas!” conversation.Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                There is no call for re-banning interracial marriage

                46% of Mississippi GOP disagree with you. 14% are “unsure.”

                It reveals something decidedly unsettling about the GOP. That you dislike what it says about you doesn’t make it illegitimate.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                But there is no call for re-banning interracial marriage. It’s a question on a poll designed to impugn Republicans. It is not reality. One of the other questions was “Do you wish the South had won the Civil War?”

                The poll has zero integrity or sincerity. It’s fantasy football, designed to be used as a weapon, no more or less.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Tom, are you familiar with the date July 4, 1863? Are you familiar with a holiday that falls on that same day of the year every year? Are you familiar with the status of that holiday in a certain MS town until recently? I don’t think these are silly questions. Perhaps you should spend more time in Mississippi (pronounced “Miss-ssipi”).Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                So it’s your assertion that questions revealing of moral character and of opinions on racial relations ought not to be asked lest they embarrass your side, TvD?

                This is for you, I think.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                My worst is worse than your worst? Fine, whatever gets you off. One point of the Texas secession thing was being sick of people whose only goal is to attack the other side. I’m quite sick of this.

                You get off on the results of a hack poll of zero integrity? OK. But it doesn’t make you or your side any better. In fact, using it as a weapon speaks ill of you.Report

              • Do you really not see how a party containing a plurality, if not an outright majority, of members who think the wrong side won the Civil War can never hope to get the votes of minority groups, regardless of whether those people actually want to make undoing the Civil War a priority?

                If one thinks the Tariff of Abominations was the greater evil than slavery (which is what one is saying if one thinks the “South shoulda won”), then – at best – one literally thinks the fundamental human rights of people of color are less worthy of protection than the rights of Southern states to cheap imports. One might properly believe both are worthy of protection; but what one thinks about who should have won the Civil War says an awful lot about one’s priorities. If your response to the question is “the South,” then you’re making abundantly clear that protecting the civil rights of people of color isn’t something that even shows up on your radar as a priority.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                First of all, MarkT, it’s one state, MS. Secondly, it’s a hack poll. Third, even the heinous Al Sharpton would not stop me from voting Democrat if such were my ideals. Bottom feeding has limited probative value.

                And it would be nice if someone repaired M.A.’s not-inconsequential error on the FP guest post.


                As of 2011*, the correct figure is 29% of Republican Mississippians, not 46% of the GOP. We have enough bottom feeding going around here without crossing into downright slander. Further, the 29% figure for Mississippi Republicans** is still deplorable, but is not as damning as the inaccurate 46% figure given for all Republicans.

                Thx in advance for your attention on this matter.
                *Page 12 or so, I make it: they’re not numbered.

                **Rep 29%, Independents 23%, Democrats 13% I’m sure we all agree that even 13% is too many.


              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                And Mark, FTR I was thrown off a blog for calling for the end of the Rebel battle flag. So don’t even go there, brother. You don’t know me and you’re out of bounds on this.Report

              • No Tom, I do know you, even if you’ve lost my respect.

                It also should be pretty clear that I’m not saying you yourself think the “South shoulda won.” I am however saying that there is indisputably a shockingly high percentage of Republicans who do.

                While PPP’s intentions in asking the question may have been ignoble (they were) and intended to embarass the GOP (also true), the fact remains that the results really are embarassing, and for legitimate reasons. Rather than whine about being embarassed, Republicans should be asking themselves why so many of their party hold such embarassing views.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                I’m not going to return your disrespect, MarkT. It’s not how I was taught and you know that about me now too, that I will not hit back. So do what you must.

                As for bottom-feeding your side of the aisle, I have no interest. It does not make my side better, nor does it diminish the best of your ideals.

                And yes, thank you for confirming the hackery of this PPP polling outfit. The poll was clearly designed to be used as a rhetorical weapon.

                Also, it would be proper to fix or acknowledge M.A.’s serious error on the FP, not just a mention in the comments. 29% of Mississippi Republicans is a long way from 46% of all Republicans.Report

              • I already fixed it.

                And while you have lost my respect, that does not mean I will be uncivil – you should know me well enough by now to know that’s not how I roll. But you will not regain my respect until you realize why you lost it in the first place.Report

              • Avatar Mopey Duns says:

                Good question. Why has no one fixed that, anyway?Report

              • Avatar Mopey Duns says:

                Oops. Just a smidge too late.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                I’m not going to re-litigate the Chris Christie thing. If you need to speak ill of me for my opinion, so be it. I would not do it to you.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                “Rep 29%, Independents 23%, Democrats 13% I’m sure we all agree that even 13% is too many.”

                This is where it starts to get silly. Yes, 13% is too many. But why does it appear you were only willing to go on record with it being wrong once you could cast your opponents in a negative light?

                It’s just more of the goddamn same. Oversensitive pseudo-victims are just playing the race card. OH, unless of course, they’re pointing at a lib/Dem. Then racism is wholly evil and ought to be denounced. Give me a breka.Report

              • I’m not speaking ill of you. I’m stating a fact that only I am in a position to know.

                There is nothing to “relitigate,” either, because there was nothing to “litigate” in the first place.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                The left-wing PPP’s first poll had 46%, its second [with twice as many surveyed] sunk to 29%. I don’t think much of the poll either way. Its purpose is to fan up race ammo for the benefit of the Dem Party.

                In the real world, Republican Sen. Trent Lott of Mississippi lost his standing in the party for a relatively innocuous stupidity. The GOP takes this crap seriously.

                And I suspect, Kazzy, that if Brother Scott were all over the LoOG with polls showing Dem antipathy toward Jews or other undelicious attitudes, you would be in WTF same as I. Because this is an exercise in slime, not reality. Your party has Al Sharpton in it. We all have our strange bedfellows.Report

              • Avatar wardsmith says:

                Tom, in the real world a SITTING MEMBER OF THE KLU KLUX KLAN was elected numerous times to the Senate as a DEMOCRAT but of course the Republicans are the racists. There is no winning these arguments, one side never fights fair, has committed every crime in the book and has brilliantly played the Public Relations game so that it can first commit the crimes then second, blame the other side for the offense. This is the Democratic Party, corrupt to the core and surrounded by useful idiots carrying their water.Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                wardsmith: empty rhetoric.

                Many members of the KKK were elected to political office.

                Harry Truman – inducted because it would get him into a local judgeship, never active as far as any historian knows.

                Edward Douglass White, Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, was accused of membership but it was never corroborated. Similar baseless accusations have been made against Warren G. Harding.

                Of course, you’re probably referring to Robert Byrd, who was indeed elected a number of times and yet repented his actions, calling Klan membership his “greatest mistake.”

                And then there’s the obvious shifts that occurred as the South went solidly Republican after 1965; very few members of the Dixiecrats survived, a couple switched to the Republican party directly and the rest were all run out in primary challenges or direct challenges as Nixon’s Southern Strategy took hold.

                If you want people to say that 70 years ago, the Democrats (Dixiecrat faction specifically) were racists? I’ll be happy to grant it. Doesn’t have any bearing on the indisputable fact that the GOP are the modern home of Southern-style racism.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                True, Ward. Without the race card, the Dem Party is finished. Which is why this slime will never go away. They cannot win on the strength of their ideas.Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                They cannot win on the strength of their ideas.

                Oh, that’s too funny.

                History’s shown the Republicans don’t win on ideas. They win on homophobia (gay men are going to “destroy marriage”). They win on racism (black men or women are mooching “welfare queens”, latinos are “job-stealing wetbacks” or all members of drug gangs).

                They win on the Southern Strategy, which has been their calling card since 1972.

                And when their ideas falter, as they always do, they go full-on DARVO and crank the rhetoric up to 11.

                Case in point: it was the GOP who demanded that the so called “fiscal cliff” be placed in the BCA 2011 compromise. Now, they’re blaming the President for “driving us towards the fiscal cliff” every day on the radio for the echo chamber to hear. And all the while they’re screaming about how the “liberal media” is blaming them for the very provisions they demanded be in the bill. Classic DARVO.

                The GOP ought to learn from that age-old saying: be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                Race-bait away. We’re inured to it. And when Barack Obama is gone, you’ll have to win elections on your merits again. BHO was a free pass, but those days are over soon.Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                Race-bait away.

                DARVO. Here’s an idea: when you can come up with ideas that don’t involve claiming there is a “war on men”, a “war on christmas”, or about a thousand other fake, DARVO-style wars and actually run on GOP ideas? We might see if your ideas win.

                But they never have before and you know your track record on ideas sucks. That’s why you’re so stuck on the idea that the reason people voted for Barack Obama was his skin color rather than that his ideas, and his party’s ideas, were better than your southern strategy and odious rhetoric.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                You keep trying to drink out of the toilet, but I let the water out.Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                I think I’m done responding to you. That was a pretty disgusting comment and just proved my point.

                All you have is DARVO and abusive rhetoric from your side. If you had ideas, you’d have brought them out. But you don’t.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                We corrected your error, M.A. Our work is done here.


                As of 2011*, the correct figure is 29% of Republican Mississippians, not 46% of the GOP. We have enough bottom feeding going around here without crossing into downright slander. Further, the 29% figure for Mississippi Republicans** is still deplorable, but is not as damning as the inaccurate 46% figure given for all Republicans.

                *Page 12 or so, I make it: they’re not numbered.

                **Rep 29%, Independents 23%, Democrats 13% I’m sure we all agree that even 13% is too many.


              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                Dear people who run this blog,

                A guy on your masthead just wrote this, “Race-bait away. We’re inured to it. And when Barack Obama is gone, you’ll have to win elections on your merits again.” After claiming that Dems only win because of the race card.

                If you don’t boot this racist off your masthead it sends a message that people of other races and (given his sexist comments) genders aren’t welcome here and.

                And if any of you defend him or say he’s not all that bad, or that you tolerate and even appreciate some of his comments, or have hom on livechats, you’re sending the same message to everyone around that this kind of gross BS is okay around here.

                Seriously. Dump the guy.

                Makes me sick.Report

              • Avatar North says:

                My Dear fellow Liberal Shazbot,

                I took the liberty of hopping over to the League’s commenting policy tab to refresh my memory.

                After a quick perusal I’d like to present a couple of points for your consideration.
                -The League of Ordinary Gentlemen’s commenting policy is very carefully tailored to be small and minimally restrictive. Open dialogue is held of paramount value.*

                -The only reasons given for deletion of a comment (or by extension banning of a user) is when the comment in question makes blanket ad hominims against either the original poster or another commenter the comment is directed at.

                -Spam is also unacceptable and is banned.

                -Based on my perusal I do not think that Tom has violated the commenting policy. His statement, while knee slappingly ludicrous, does not constitute an attack against either another commentor or the original poster. Instead it constitutes an attack (albeit a very ineffective one) against the Democratic Party of the United States.

                -Hyperbole and lunacy are not in violation of the League’s commenting policy. This is a fortunate thing since I personally am occasionally as crazy as a catfish and indulge in hyperbole like a fundamentalist pastor indulges in cocaine off of gay prostitutes six pack.

                -Since Tom’s comment doesn’t merit deletion I don’t think it would represent a cause for scrubbing Tom off of the masthead. Many of the people on the masthead hold views that many people consider abhorrent. Some of them believe redistribution is an legitimate government policy; some of them think it’s an act of violence against a hapless public; some of them think abortion is murder; some of them think it’s an integral part of women’s control over their own bodies and destiny; some of them think that the GOP has gone as crazy as a bag full of squirrels; some of them think the GOP is the only hope for sanity in America today. The list goes on and on. The League doesn’t typically drive people off the masthead or out of the conversations for those kinds of beliefs (even if they come off loopy or offensive).

                -So in conclusion I don’t think there’s a case to be made for banishing Tom from the Masthead even though I disagree with him on almost everything he writes. Especially lately.

                I’m not religious (at ~all~) but it strikes me that “by your fruits you shall know them” is a pertinent line to invoke. Tom’s utterly laughable assertion that a notable majority of the country re-elected the Democrats in both Houses and the Presidency (but were stymied in the House by entirely legal and legitimate gerrymandering mind) because they were snookered by race baiting is so utterly ludicrous that it casts a shadow over all the various arguments he makes. This is bad for his personal image and bad for the conservatism he advocates on behalf of but it does no harm to Liberals or the Democratic Party (other than getting their blood pressure up). At some point Tom or his party may wonder if this strategy and his statements really are helping their cause and rethink it. I don’t see any reason we should hurry him or them along to that conclusion. Time in the political wilderness is good for parties and not being taken seriously by other commentators can be a healthy corrective.

                As a side note I wish both sides of the debate would ease back on the meta a tich. We liberals are far too quick to start both denouncing the entire community based on our personal offense at someone’s positions or debating tactics or call for the powers that be to start administering righteous retribution on people who say things we don’t like. Lord (Lady?) knows I’m tired of the right wing and libertarian penchant for sighing in exasperation and grumbling about how the League was better back in the old days when the internet ran on coal and the commenters were all libertarians, right wingers and some milquetoast centrists. We’ve got some active red meat liberals around, I think that’s nice!

                So, in conclusion if one finds that one’s opponent is making a fool of his or her self it is my opinion that the most productive course of action is to let them get on with it and then eventually interject some humor to tie a bow on their silly behavior.

                So I’d suggest that the status quos should remain.

                Sincerely and affectionately,

                *I’d add that maintaining a certain level of courtesy and decorum, while cherished by many of the commentariate, is not an official League policy and is instead organically encouraged by the commenters.

                **North does not run the League nor does North in any way influence anyone who does run the League and thank goodness for that because if North was running things there’d be dust and those woolly little dust balls everywhere that look like \ pre-cat-ingestion hairballs and that’d be fishing gross. North’s opinion is strictly his own and you read it at your own risk. Excessive reading of North’s opinions can lead to verdant tongue, vapors, post partum baldness and puts you at some risk of being taken by The Fear.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                Thx, Brother North. I’m feeling all warm & fuzzy & all. If it’s all the same to you though, next time, don’t.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                That’s great North, stand by the racist, mysoginist.


                Upthread people were talking about how there are some bad pressures to conform, and conforming to tolerativng TVD is clearly one of them.


              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                BTW, “doesn’t engage in personal attacks” is a pretty low bar for being on the masthead. Lots of neonazis or real, hardcore racists would meet that standard. But you wouldn’t tolerate them there, nor would you defend their point of view as a part of the discussion.Report

              • Avatar greginak says:

                Shaz- North wasn’t standing by TVD. He was expressing, in epic fashion, the idea that this place is a public forum for discussion for people of all points of view. It takes a truly massive step over the line to merit deletion of a post or being stricken from the masthead. That someone posts stupid things doesn’t imply every other FP endorses it. There are all sorts of things we all feel passionately that others disagree with. We would be well served by everybody toning back some of the bile and emotion. But that’s just me.

                This is like a bar where everybody can step up to have drink and say what they want. If you don’t like what they have to say mock them or walk away. This isn’t an echo chamber for any side, its a freewheeling discussion. You can have one or the other, but not both at the same time. I can assure you i find Tom’s posts to be more then anything, an insult to the many actually smart conservatives out there. he isn’t don’t his side any favours. But this is simply a public discussion for anybody who wants to spout off.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Consider, Shazbot, the consequences of pushing Tom out of here. These things do get around the Internet. Far more people read us than write here. RedState drops the ban hammer on its dissidents. DailyKos is far worse, they’ll just get abusive. That’s not what anyone wants around here.

                Tom treads a very fine line and well he knows it. He thinks he’s doing Liberals a favour, repeating all these silly mantras he picks up from Drudge et. al. So what, Tom says stupid things from time to time. Matt Drudge says them every day and gets millions of hits. But eventually, the line Tom treads will grow blurred for his much treading on it and he will forget where it is.

                North has laid out where the line is and why we should all respect that line. But we cannot become a collection of hothouse flowers. It’s bad for business. For all the fine talk from Liberals about diversity of opinions, we don’t handle diversity very well. Banning Tom will not solve the problem. It will only prove we can’t observe our own line.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                I didn’t say he should be banned. I said he should be pulled off the masthead and everyone should condemn his stupidity instead of finding ways to defend him or his right to say it.

                The attacks on my comment send a message that TVD is liked and respected and his comment is fine and that people around here respect (even if they disagree with) his view.

                I don’t respect it, but it isn’t quite ban worthy.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

                One of the other questions was “Do you wish the South had won the Civil War?”

                Asking that of someone from the South.(a white someone, anyway) sets a pretty damned high bar. “Do you recognize that your ancestors’ way of life was so evil that all of us, including you, are better off that it was ended violently, leading to defeat, humiliation, and occupation?” I’m fairly sure that most Germans would answer that “yes”. I’m dubious that would be true of the Japanese. If I were from Alabama, raised on the nonsense that passes for Civil War history these days [1], I might answer that one the wrong way myself.

                1. You know: Slavery would have ended in a few years anyway, the secessions were about states’ rights and tariffs, Lee was a great man who hated slavery but fought for his homeland anyway, etc.Report

              • Avatar greginak says:

                Neither Blaise or North or I have defended TVD in anyway. B pointed out that T deliberately walks a fine line. Sadly he uses his smarts to tightrope walk instead of learning. N expressed he doesn’t think much of Tom’s posts and i certainly didn’t defend him. Saying this is a public forum for all sorts of hot, sincerely believed and widely disagreed with ideas doesn’t imply any of us think T isn’t usually trolling or showing how much conservatives need to learn if they are ever to win another Pres election.

                Free speech and public forums means people we seriously disagree with will get there turn to speak.Report

              • Avatar Murali says:

                BTW, “doesn’t engage in personal attacks” is a pretty low bar for being on the masthead. Lots of neonazis or real, hardcore racists would meet that standard. But you wouldn’t tolerate them there, nor would you defend their point of view as a part of the discussion

                A few points.

                1. North did not defend Tom’s point of view. North only defended his continued presence.

                2. We actually used to have a neo-confederate paleocon here as a regular commenter. We only banned him when he started becoming abusive. So, who stays and who goes has nothing to do with the content of their views. The league does not brand itself as representing any particular view point, there was a time before the influx of libertarians when the league consisted of a mixture of derigiste conservatives, social democrats and more radical socialists. There was a time when almost everyone was a libertarian, now we’ve got a mix of moderate libertarians, conservatives and liberals.

                3. If we started kicking out people based on how offensive their views are, then none of us would be safe. We would all be forced to censor ourselves out of fear of losing what to many of us is our only feasible avenue to communicate our views to a large audience. For example, I am, notoriously, the biggest democracy sceptic in the Masthead. I have also come out as saying that the Nuremberg trials were a farce. That’s the nearest that comes to anything resembling Nazi or fascist sympathising that goes on in respectable parts of the blogosphere. There have been calls to have me kicked out before. I wonder what happens if we start with Tom? Where would it stop? Do we want that kind of pressure on FPers to monitor the content of their posts?

                4. How is Tom spouting what seems to be standard republican rhetoric somehow an offence so beyond the pale that it warrants removal of FPer privileges? Do you think that half your country is beyond the pale? And if we are talking about a deficiency of rationality or for that matter patience or minor violations of decorum, I would like to remind people of motes and beams, the priorities of removing them in which order and from whose eyes.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Shazbot, the only way I’ve ever found to cope with Tom was with either the velvet glove of elaborate courtesy or the stark fist of direct opposition. He seems to respect those two approaches.

                Attempting to punish him is both fruitless and pointless. It seems to come in waves around here.

                The other day, I was getting onto an elevator. Out scuttled a little boy, perhaps nine or ten years old with the guiltiest look on his face. I got in, to find he’d pressed half the buttons, leaving me to watch the doors open and close at a half-dozen stops. Little bastard, heh heh.

                I wish Tom would stop pressing everyone’s buttons. In like measure, I’d like everyone to quit responding quite so vehemently to his stupid teasing.Report

              • Avatar greginak says:

                “doesn’t engage in personal attacks” is a pretty low bar for being on the masthead. ” Exactly. Have you read some of freaks they let post here. But yeah, this is a blog, a great one its own way, but its only a blog.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                “actually used to have a neo-confederate paleocon here as a regular commenter”

                Was he on the masthead and invited to leaguecast videos? Tom isn’t just not banned, his comments are respected and defended as being “legitimate” or interesting or worth discussing, explicitly or implicitly, even by people who disagree with him. You are sending the signal that his views are worth keeping around right now. Please stop.

                “If we started kicking out people based on how offensive their views are, then none of us would be safe. ”

                Slippery slope fallacy. 10 yard penalty.

                And I didn’t say ban him. I said kick him off the masthead. Stop saying anything about him other than that he should screw off and quit saying racist or mysoginist stuff. And stop defending his point of view. That’s all I’m asking. Because if we do that, it might make the league inclusive. Don’t do that and the league won’t be inclusive. Ever.


                “This is like a bar where everybody can step up to have drink and say what they want.”

                This is like a bar where racists say racist and mysoginist stuff and nobody yells at them to piss off and never come back, even if they have a legal right to speak their mind. (That sort of bar is also a bar where non-white people don’t feel welcome, BTW.) And this is a bar where non-white men have said, explicitly, that they don’t feel welcome. Yet still you drink with a guy who says racist stuff, but you argue with the guy who is yelling at the racist.

                In fact this is like a bar where the guy who says the racist stuff has his picture above the bar or, maybe even the bar is named after him.Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                In fact this is like a bar where the guy who says the racist stuff has his picture above the bar or, maybe even the bar is named after him.

                I find myself in agreement with Shazbot. I’ve crossed the line when I let my temper get the better of me, I’ve been chastised for it, and I’ve watched myself since.

                TvD has said some of the worst, most racist and most misogynist things I’ve seen on this blog. Moreover, he’s the poster child for the DARVO-type activity that the GOP has been engaging in for too long.

                DARVO is a form of abuse and part of a larger pattern of abusive behavior. I point out the GOP doesn’t engage in campaigning on policy and ideas, and Tom’s response is to accuse me of “drinking from the toilet.”

                So, I agree with Shazbot. I don’t think Tom has done anything banworthy, but I think he’s a main contributing factor to why you have so few women commenting.Report

              • Avatar Murali says:

                Was he on the masthead and invited to leaguecast videos? Tom isn’t just not banned, his comments are respected and defended as being “legitimate” or interesting or worth discussing, explicitly or implicitly, even by people who disagree with him.

                So, people who disagree (some even rather vehemently) with his views are respecting and defending him and his views. Got that.

                You are sending the signal that his views are worth keeping around right now. Please stop.

                This is exactly like the conservatives saying that legalisation of gay marriage endorses the idea that homosexual relationships are not sinful. No, just as the legalisation of gay marriage merely means that people are free to do whatever they want with consenting others, keeping Tom as an FPer involves no endorsement of his views, especially when many FPers have in fact pushed back against his ideas when he voiced them.

                10 yard penalty.

                And who is using language that assumes american-ness here?

                And I didn’t say ban him. I said kick him off the masthead. Stop saying anything about him other than that he should screw off and quit saying racist or mysoginist stuff. And stop defending his point of view. That’s all I’m asking. Because if we do that, it might make the league inclusive. Don’t do that and the league won’t be inclusive. Ever.

                Neither was I. I was talking about removing Tom from the masthead as well. I don’t know that doing so would make Tom unwilling to comment as well, but if you removed me from the masthead, I would be too ashamed/and or resentful to show my face in these parts. And for me that is the end of any wide audience for the near future. Nor was I making a slippery slope argument. I’m saying that there is no rule that would get rid of Tom which could also not be used against the a number of the FPers like myself.

                “This is like a bar where everybody can step up to have drink and say what they want.”

                This is like a bar where racists say racist and mysoginist stuff and nobody yells at them to piss off and never come back, even if they have a legal right to speak their mind. (That sort of bar is also a bar where non-white people don’t feel welcome, BTW.)

                Only people do yell at Tom. Tom is the most yelled at guy in this place. we are not telling people to stop yelliing at him. All we are saying is that you don’t get to kick anyone out unless they have crossed lines that we have explicitly set up. Tom has not done that.

                And this is a bar where non-white men have said, explicitly, that they don’t feel welcome. Yet still you drink with a guy who says racist stuff, but you argue with the guy who is yelling at the racist.

                FWIW, I am neither white nor American. I feel very welcome here. I am from a minority ethnic group in my country as well. Not only that, I belong to a minority subgroup of my minority ethnic group. I have a fairly good idea of what it takes to communicate with people who come from a different background.

                I have had more than my share of arguments with Tom in the past. Tom can attest to that.

                Oh, and this DARVO stuff? comparing Tom to a sexual abuser is way not cool. It is a personal attack. Stop it.

                DARVO is also of questionable pedigree being a concept used to discredit lots of parents in the 90s during the repressed sexual abuse memories hysteria. (i.e People invented DARVO to attack innocents)Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:


                Oh, and this DARVO stuff? comparing Tom to a sexual abuser is way not cool. It is a personal attack. Stop it.

                DARVO is not limited to sexual abuse.

                DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for “Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender.” The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of “falsely accused” and attacks the accuser’s credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.

                Yes, they mention sexual predators, but ANY offender may engage in this behavior. The GOP have done so for quite a long while. I have provided numerous examples of the behavior and Tom has provided a few of them as his own arguments.

                It’s really nothing new, except to be codified by acronym. It was the standard method introduced by L. Ron Hubbard for the “defense” of Scientology as well; it is the basis of the “Fair Game” policy they employ.

                The GOP has behaved in ways that I find abusive. Abusive towards women, abusive towards minorities, abusive towards anyone who questions them, their tactics, or their rhetoric.

                Their response follows perfectly the DARVO framework, and I will not apologize for labeling it as such. It is not “sexual” abuse, but they are definitely abusive.Report

            • Avatar MikeSchilling says:

              Interracial marriage is Communism.

              Hey, it’s not me saying that. It’s a prominent conservative publication.Report

          • Avatar James Hanley says:

            Here’s what’s fundamentally wrong with TVD’s and ISI’s approach. I could drill my students on basic civics questions until I’m blue in the face just to ensure that students know such vital issues of the day as how old you have to be to become a congressman. Or I could have them read a peer reviewed research paper that shows that initiatives that limit some group’s rights are far more likely to be approved by voters than initiatives in general are.

            In a survey, folks ask the first question as “civics knowledge,” and don’t ask the second one. But what’s more important for students to know?

            And I’ll let you all in on a little secret. We political scientists don’t teach civics, we teach political science. You get all your civics in K-12 (hopefully), then we get serious about studying how political systems work, not teaching little Johnny to worship George Washington and remember how many years you have to be a citizen before you can be a Senator.

            Some people, unfortunately, never seem to learn the difference between trivia and knowledge.Report

            • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

              Some people, unfortunately, never seem to learn the difference between trivia and knowledge.

              Here’s an important general lesson for everyone in academia. Ready?

              Are you teaching at < college level? Stop reading. Are you teaching a remedial class? Stop reading. With me so far? Good. Does the number of the course you're teaching begin with a "1"? Stop reading. Still here? Great. If you make an exam, and you feel it necessary to forbid the use of a computer because you're afraid that the answers will all be on the web, you're probably a terrible test author. You're testing for data, not knowledge. And if you got past all those previous questions, you almost certainly should be testing for knowledge, not data.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Well done.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                Dammit Cahalan, you must now distinctify and significate data v. knowledge. Scientia!Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                A stupid data question is:

                “Describe the first 128 bits of the IPv4 header.”

                Seriously, nobody needs to know that. Not even the top network engineer needs to have that committed to memory.

                A slightly less stupid data question would be:

                “Describe the 13 mandatory fields in the IPv4 header and why they are significant.”

                A knowledge question would be:

                “Describe the relationship between TCP and IP, version 4. Include a proper classification for IP and TCP in their respective layers of the OSI network model. If either protocol can be said to not properly match a layer of the OSI network model, describe which functions of the protocol fall outside of the boundaries of the layer in which you have classified it.”Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

                “Use the OSI model, whose development and implementation were a complete clusterfish, to critique the networking protocol that runs the entire internet.”Report

              • Avatar Pat Cahalan says:

                Mike is joking, but a fleshed out version of that answer takes the stand that Mr. Lovelace would take… were he a true believer in fighting the good fight.

                “I will challenge the premise behind the question, and show that I not only understand it, but understand things outside the scope of the original question.”Report

            • Avatar greginak says:

              “Some people, unfortunately, never seem to learn the difference between trivia and knowledge.”

              Yup, one helps you win free drinks at a bar and the other doesn’t.Report

            • Avatar Will Truman says:

              Some people, unfortunately, never seem to learn the difference between trivia and knowledge.

              That’s easy. Trivia is the stuff that’s important to you. Knowledge is the stuff that’s important to me.Report

        • Avatar BlaiseP says:

          I don’t know how others around here felt about themselves after they took of their mortarboards and gowns and looked back over their college years. I went into the military after two years of college and resumed my education thereafter. I never really felt as if I’d learned all that much. I’d been introduced to many subjects. The better teachers had taught me how to learn a subject but what I’d learned was terribly cursory.

          The military had seriously alienated me from the my fellow students. I didn’t want to talk about my time in the service. There was the age difference, too. I knew a lot more about the government: I was constantly surprised by how little my fellow students understood about the political subjects upon which they’d opine, hour after hour.

          Education did change me, it changes everyone. But it’s not education which changes us, it’s experience. If kids these days emerge from college with a lack of basic civics knowledge and a lack of bias toward same-sex marriage, maybe they met some gay people on campus and formed an opinion.

          I’d known gay men in the military, I’d helped protect them. That’s what soldiers did back then, these were our fellow troops, you always covered for your own people. That opinion arose not from some Librul Politically Correct Indoctrination Seminar. The hippies were just plain stupid, most of them, and a surprising number of them were bigots. The school administration was clueless and overworked. The country was going to hell in a hand basket. In my senior year, Nixon was going apeshit and so was Congress.

          Put it this way, we learned about civics from Watergate than from some textbook. But learning tolerance of gays, I learned that in uniform and I learned it in spite of the rules about homosexuals in the Army. I watched soldiers come in, green as grass, still racist, still stupid. We clued them in fast. Call it political correctness, we’d beat their asses if they started talking shit about anyone in our unit and we did not tolerate squealers or ass kissers. You hung with your squad and your platoon and they were your family. Once that all got straightened out, they were good troops.Report

          • Avatar James Hanley says:

            A+. My biggest frustration is students who’ve just never been anywhere or done anything. I’ve literally taken students to Chicago and had them tell me they’ve never seen a revolving door before. I’ve met students who by the time they get to college have never before left the state of Michigan. I had a student graduate last year who came from a small town in Indiana and whose only goal in life was to go back to that small town as soon as he graduated from our small college in our small Michigan town; couldn’t get him to even consider studying abroad or taking a semester in a program in D.C. He wasn’t interested in actually learning, because he wasn’t interested in being challenged–he’d never been asked to stretch himself and confront a new culture or new ideas, and he actively resisted engaging new ideas (his senior thesis was basically an effort to prove that what his dad told him about taxes was true). We had a student once who was a commuter, and his mom wouldn’t let him stay overnight on campus once because, if you can believe it, he’d never been away from home overnight before.

            Any of you who have kids, take them places. If there’s a program in their high school that takes them to another country for a week, scrimp and save to make it happen. If they’re younger, find a summer camp to send them to for a week each summer, if there’s any possible way you can scrape to afford it. Tell them you won’t pay their tuition in college unless they spend a semester abroad. It’s the best gift you can possibly give them, and a hell of a lot safer than how Blaise got his experience (not dissing your experience, Blaise, but I suspect you don’t wish for most kids to go through what you went through).

            I’ve never had a student who studied abroad who didn’t come back much richer for the experience, a more thoughtful student, a more able and accomplished person, with more confidence and a bit of gleam in their eye about their future prospects.

            Give your kids as much experience as you can, or you’re robbing them and pre-emptively slashing the value of their college education.Report

            • Avatar greginak says:

              I was a very shy immature kid when i got to college. The education was good and helpful, but only really useful when combined with the experience of meeting people, traveling and doing different things that pushed me out of my comfort zone. I wish my parents had pushed me to study abroad or something like that.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Me, too. I see too much of myself in the inexperienced kids I get. Half of my drive is to save them from wasting as much of their time in college as I did.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                “Get out of the comfort zone” seems to be the theme here. And really, what’s the down side?Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                It’s scary.

                And liberal.Report

              • Avatar dhex says:

                “My biggest frustration is students who’ve just never been anywhere or done anything.”

                though your deep fatigue with a lack of curiosity is understandable, to be fair, not all of us once we got to college had families who had the money to travel, etc. wasn’t in the cards, beyond sneaking into the city now and then in high school. work school work etc etc and so on.

                on the other hand, naivety makes for funny stories sometimes.

                my hs girlfriend’s older sister, upon hearing i was going to a college on long island, told me “just watch out for the japs!” i was shocked! now, they were an indian family but had come to america when they were young, so i spent part of the next day tearing through the encyclopedia at the library trying to find out if there was any history i should be aware of, etc, and came up with nothing.

                i finally broke down a week later and asked my gf why her sister was racist against japanese people.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                Did anyone ever mention “Jewish American Princess” to you? rofl.

                I’ve got worse stories (not from my own hometown, mind). On a bus trip to NYC, high school kids saying, “Those are real live black people out there!” (hadn’t seen one in their life, apparently)Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:


                My comment may have come across as disliking people who hadn’t traveled. I should emphasize that “frustration” just means they tend to be more difficult to engage. They’re not all bad people, by any means, and it’s a delight to watch the ones that do learn how to engage, and who suddenly decide that by god they’re going to go somewhere, somehow, sometime, even if they can’t do it right now.

                To be more specific, the ones that are simply hard to like are the ones who strongly resist getting engaged in learning, who don’t want to hear different ideas, or about different political systems, or can never get past thinking about other cultures as just weird, or somehow lesser because they’re not American. The ones who, when given the opportunity to travel, even if it’s only vicariously, simply lapse into daydreaming about going home the next weekend because they haven’t seen their high school buds since the last weekend. That divide doesn’t actually fall on class lines, so far as my casual observation tells me.Report

              • Avatar dhex says:

                “My comment may have come across as disliking people who hadn’t traveled. I should emphasize that “frustration” just means they tend to be more difficult to engage. They’re not all bad people, by any means, and it’s a delight to watch the ones that do learn how to engage, and who suddenly decide that by god they’re going to go somewhere, somehow, sometime, even if they can’t do it right now.”

                believe you me, as the spouse of an academic who teaches some intro english courses, i get it. i was so naive heading in – the first person in the entire family going to college and all that jazz – that i expected some kind of idealized, socratic, entirely imaginary experience totally created out of my fantasies. when i realized most students were just checking in (just like high school) and not really interested in learning as i understood it (just like high school), which itself was a fairly absurd, idealized version of learning. maybe that would have changed from traveling more, but i think cultural expectations/experiences of the home base would have trumped that regardless.

                as a side note, i presume your institution has those programs you can zip a paper into and it feeds you back a color coded version with x% of the material being plagiarized or suspect? i’m still somewhat shocked that students at the wife’s institution – everyone has access to the same service – act shocked that she can figure out that they’ve copied from wikipedia or that with a bit of digging that paper they spent all weekend writing was actually done in two hours on a tuesday afternoon, two days after deadline. weird.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                For my intro course I have students submit it through the safeassign feature in Blackboard, which does a plagiarism check. The advantage is that they get the same feedback I do, so they can see for themselves what I’m seeing.

                For my higher level courses I usually know the students well enough to have a sense of their writing level, and usually just opportunistically google phrases that don’t sound right–usually of the “wow, this sentence is written at a really high level” type not sounding right.Report

              • Avatar dhex says:

                do you get students who go through the checking process and then submit it anyway?

                “Did anyone ever mention “Jewish American Princess” to you? rofl.”

                it simply never came up. i grew up in a part of new jersey that had more buddhists than jews.

                also took me a number of years of dealing with people from long island before i realized that “north shore type” or derisive references to the north shore meant “rich jewish person who annoys me”.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                do you get students who go through the checking process and then submit it anyway?

                The program checks after submission, so they couldn’t do that. Although they could submit a second time and ask me to ignore the first.Report

            • Avatar LWA (liberal With Attitude) says:

              Well said and touches on the very point that the professor (however clumsily) wanted to make.
              That is, being exposed to other viewpoints and perspectives is a terrific way of challenging what you think you know.
              Traveling usually has this terrific effect of forcing us to experience the world from outside our own framework.

              I remember speaking to an Arab student in France in the mid 80’s who was honestly puzzled by the American hostility to the USSR; the Afghan war meant squat to him, and he saw the US and USSR as Tweedledum and Tweedledee.

              However, he was astonished- and appalled- by my stated neutrality in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

              Asking people to put aside their “American-ness, White-ness, etc” may be cloying or trite, but it aims in the right direction.Report

            • Avatar BlaiseP says:

              In the beginning, all things are hard. There’s so much ground to cover. If Book Larnin’ Education is to accomplish anything in our lives, it begins with the preface: “You’re only getting an introduction. Scholars have worked this subject matter for centuries. You’re only looking at a textbook. This is not the real thing, kid.”

              Education is wasted on some people. My old man taught college journalism for a few years. He would have some of his students over, I thought they were the coolest people, not realising at the time I was looking at the very best from among his students. College itself was such a let-down in that respect. I dove into everything. Other people around me couldn’t care less about education: for them, classes and papers and labs were just doin’ the needful. For them, it was all about the social life. Petty stuff. Hormones.

              After two years of it though, all I could see was myself turning into a carbon copy of my father.

              I’m told the most rewarding aspect of being an educator is seeing what becomes of your students. The phrases in loco parentis and alma mater imply a sort of parental affection and obligation between teacher and student. I had some wonderful professors.

              But Lord, it must be a sore trial to endure the incurious student. That has to be infuriating. Grading a poorly written paper. Attempting to solicit feedback in class. Dealing with pedants, fools, nitwits, clowns, cranks, the blankly ignorant. I couldn’t do it.Report

            • Avatar Kim says:

              A week in another country nets most kids little. When I went, it was little more than “go shopping” and “eat lotta pizza”. Just saying. I learned a lot more from three weeks in Greece (or Spain) or one day spent in Morrocco, than from any stupid class trip.Report

    • Avatar Stillwater says:

      If I’d wanted a course in left-wing gibberish, I’d have ordered a course in left-wing gibberish.

      You’re a smart guy, so here’s my two cents: you’re intentionally ignoring Burt’s thesis to unintentionally confirm Burt’s thesis.Report

      • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

        Not at all. I read this blog and see that manipulating language mutilates clarity of thought. The tyranny of cliches, as one fellow put it.

        This is not to say the right doesn’t do it, but they don’t waste as much time and tuition.

        I understand Burt’s point fine, thank you. A correction here, a day here, perhaps even a week to learn to read and write leftish in anticipation of an academic career, where the academic establishment takes turns writing gibberish for each other.

        But this is no replacement for actual knowledge. My own point, thank you. I’m stunned reading otherwise erudite college types here and elsewhere so completely ignorant of what we are and how we got here.Report

        • Avatar Chris says:

          “write leftish”

          And you’re worried about a “tyranny of cliches.” Dude, you haven’t written a comment on this thread that wasn’t precisely the cliche Burt was talking about. Honestly, let go for a moment and try to see the way you look to others. I promise you, it will do you some good.Report

      • Avatar LauraNo says:

        I thought maybe he was intentionally confirming the thesis by pretending to do it unintentionally? No?Report

  7. Avatar M.A. says:

    “White privilege: Unpacking the invisible backpack.”

    Important to read to understand WHY it is that there are differing perspectives on what constitutes privilege.Report

  8. Avatar greginak says:

    Burt- Just wanted to point out, before the thread goes to far off the point, this was a great discussion of the “short hand” we use in our discussions. We in general have invested to much in words like liberal and conservative. They are perfectly good, innocent words that can’t carry all the political and social meaning we heap on them. Good writing is specific writing. Vague writing is sort of not really all that good. Lovelace could use some lessons in that.Report

    • Avatar Burt Likko says:

      I appreciate your callback to one of the big ideas in the OP, Greg.Report

    • Agreed. The only thing that potentially bothers me about the prof’s syllabus, does so for basically this reason, even thigh it is not the focus of the complaints. Specifically, I am referring to the statement that the purpose of the standard is to serve a “fundamental principle of social justice.”. I think liberals don’t understand just how vague that term is, nor how difficult it is to avoid the conclusion that the phrase “fundamental principle of social justice” sounds like “fundamental principle of modern American Leftism.”.

      But, as I said, that does not seem to be the part of this that is drawing outrage. The part that is drawing outrage is most readily interpreted as just a request that students in a critical thinking class… demonstrate that they are thinking critically.Report

      • Avatar greginak says:

        Not to turn this into a group hug and away from continuous mutual vituperation by Mark’s point about the use of “social justice” is correct. I don’t have an issue with its vagueness per se but liberals don’t understand how its heard by non-liberals. It is often heard, not entirely incorrectly, as Liberal Principles. I think its a fine concept to work towards and engage with but if we use a term that will be misunderstood or set some people immediately on edge its less likely to lead to productive discussion.Report

        • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

          Hearing “social justice” makes any sane man reach for his wallet.Report

        • Avatar Kazzy says:

          I came to know and understand the term “social justice” via my Jesuit secondary education. I never quite understood why it made folks bristle as it does. This helps.Report

          • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

            “Social justice” is a catchall for the secular-left agenda, untethered from its Catholic origins in this current form. Why, abortion as “reproductive rights” is “social justice!” in its modernist incarnation. You see the absurdity and the dishonesty of trying to connect the “social justice” bleat of 2012 to the thought of St. Thomas Aquinas.

            That said, there are things that Thomism can teach the libertarian side of contemporary American conservatism. Just as Adam Smith’s invisible hand had a heart for the poor, since we are by nature social animals, a “radical individualism” is contrary to our natures–both our basest nature and our highest nature.Report

            • Avatar Chris says:

              I’ve never heard reproductive rights referred to as “social justice.” In general, “social justice” is used on the left to refer to the treatment of the poor. Can you point me to an example of someone using “social justice” to refer to reproductive rights? If so, I’ll buy your point. If not, you’re going to have to start from scratch in convincing me that “social justice” as it’s used today isn’t the descendent of Aquinas.Report

              • Avatar Marchmaine says:

                It might depend on what one means by “descended” from Aquinas… but “Social Justice” as used in SWE (in homage to BlaiseP) is indeed a catch-all that includes, among many other things, “Reproductive Rights.” A perfunctory google search yields a wikipedia page dedicated to Reproductive Justice, 7,160 Google Scholar articles (restricted to 2012 alone), plus you just missed the “Reproductive Rights as a Social Justice Issue” hosted by the Center for Reproductive Rights this past October 5th.

                As a Catholic who does take seriously Social Justice, I merely point out that the term as it is commonly used today has wandered down many different roads that may or may not lead back to Aquinas; at this point, it is an appropriated term.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Aquinas is as close as the Catholic Church ever got to a reconciliation with science, and that only by aping Aristotle. But Aquinas wanted to castrate science, paring away doubt and replacing it with faith.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Marchmaine, I think that forum sounds pretty interesting. I could see the argument that, in order to achieve social justice, economic independence for women is necessary, and in order to achieve that, reproductive freedom is a necessity. Oddly, I don’t find this inconsistent with the Thomist conception of social justice, even if Catholics are anti-reproductive freedom as a rule.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Also, it looks like that “reproductive justice” movement, which I now see treating reproductive justice as part of a larger “social justice framework,” is both somewhat new and not representative of the mainstream “secular left” use of the phrase. But it is definitely used in that context, and I hadn’t seen it before. Thanks for finding it.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                I accept your walkback and implicit apology, Chris. You have much to offer any principled discussion. Let us goosestep toward the truth!Report

              • Avatar Marchmaine says:

                Chris, Perhaps an occasion where the Religious Left was in advance of the Secular Left? The elision(s) among American Catholics certainly picked up steam after Humanae Vitae in 1968, and has been in full force my entire adult life.

                But here I rather agree with Mark that the term has been fully appropriated by non-Catholics (and why not, it’s not a particularly Catholic term that should merit copyright protection) and means lots of things to lots of people. But you got me thinking about the use of the term (Social Justice) itself and its origins for Catholics, so I went back to the primary Catholic texts on the subject: Rerum Novarum (1891), Quadragesimo Anno (1931), Populorum Progressio (1967), and Centissimus Annus (1991).

                The term is never mentioned in RN. Social Justice is specifically referenced at least 5 times in QA and is very clearly used to defend a Just and Living wage for workers. Interestingly, in PP it is referenced specifically four times and always in reference to Rich Nations owing Justice to Poor nations. CA makes three references and somewhat officially “blesses” the terms Social Doctrine and Social Magisterium as originating with RN and continuing through the other encyclicals; otherwise the use of Social Justice in CA is with regards the injustices of Marxism (which, incidentally, led some of my co-religionists to perhaps overstate CA with regards Market Capitalism… but that’s another kettle of fish).

                I take your point that Secular Liberals can and do make the argument for reproductive rights as a form of social justice vis-a-vis the independence of women. That is rather the point of the original kerfuffle about the term and its use.

                The encyclicals, however, very clearly articulate that the first functioning unit the living wage is to defend is the family, and specifically decries the state of affairs which forces both spouses to work outside the home as an injustice. Total independence and atomization of society is squarely in the crosshairs when the encyclicals tackle justice. One might, I suppose, finesse the matter by standing on the principle of just wages for the support of families and remain silent on who precisely earns that wage. But arguing that “reproductive rights” are a positive good so that both spouses may work is not something supported by the terms… not specifically owing the the “reproductive” part, but owing to the injustice it inflicts on the family.

                Not that I expect secular leftists to necessarily find the above persuasive, but there is much in Catholic Social doctrine that might make for good neighbors, even when we need good fences.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                Excellent comment Marchmaine. As are most of your comments, I might add.Report

            • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

              “Social justice” is a catchall for the secular-left agenda, untethered from its Catholic origins in this current form.

              This is more or less my objection to Mr. Farmer’s use of the word “statist”, so objection upheld.

              I don’t know that I entirely agree with your estimation, Tom, and there’s at least a group of nuns who disagree with you, but it’s at least an arguable position.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                Thx, PatC. It’s nice to get a word in sledgewise now and then.

                We’re having a go at John Locke over at my Am History blog, and Locke is not a big “distributive justice” guy, except of course re the fulfillment of basic needs, something even the iciest glibertarian has no objection to guaranteeing.

                Locke’s theory can be considered an extensive re-elaboration, in polemic against Filmer, of the anti-monopolistic principle characteristic of the whole of Scholastic social thought: this principle is intimately connected with the principle of man’s natural liberty.

                Locke maintains a negative and formal conception of justice: justice prohibits interference with others’ liberty of appropriation. Alongside the justice is the positive and conditional obligation of charity which prescribes the transfer of some of one’s own goods to others who need them in order to survive. But for Locke there are precise limits on the obligation of charity: the application of charity suspends the application of justice only when the immediate physical survival is at stake; in all other cases justice leaves no room for charity.


              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                I haven’t read enough Locke to really have a good sense of the entire body of the guy’s stuff, but the Second Treatise itself punts entirely on the potential problem of redistribution. The whole exercise of the Second is built from the ground up; assuming you gather no more than is just, we now go forward to discuss what it means to own the thing you gather.

                He does very baldly gloss over the “what if somebody’s already gathered most of the stuff, John?” question. At least, in the Second… which actually seems rather odd given the context of the time, what with inherited monarchy and landed gentry and whatnot.

                Sounds like a fun discussion, though.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                BTW, PatC: A bleg for another word than “statist?” I use “communitarian” when I’m feeling expansive. But it’s a pain to type and applies as much to the crypto-Catholic “distributism” of Chesterton as to the prog-left Euro-social model that even some leftpersons allow is “the welfare state.”

                *Pardon the Wiki: “Distributism (also known as distributionism or distributivism) is an economic philosophy that developed in Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century, based upon the principles of Catholic social teaching, especially the teachings of Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Rerum Novarum and Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno.

                According to distributists, property ownership is a fundamental right and the means of production should be spread as widely as possible among the general populace, rather than being centralized under the control of the state (state socialism) or by accomplished individuals (laissez-faire capitalism). Distributism therefore advocates a society marked by widespread property ownership and, according to co-operative economist Race Mathews, maintains that such a system is key to bringing about a just social order.”Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Communitarian doesn’t really mean the same thing as “statist,” as you note, but the problem with “statist,” as you note, but there is another, perhaps more relevant difference. Communitarian works well as a noun, but “statist” is really works better as an adjective, since it’s really a term that denotes a relative (to another policy or theory) reliance on the state. So any view that’s not anarchism is statist relative to anarchism. Perhaps Farmer, who uses “statist” reflexively, is a minarchist, so just about everything looks statist to him? Which shows why it’s pretty much a useless term here. One has to establish what one is comparing something to, in order for the label “statist” to carry any information.Report

            • Avatar BlaiseP says:

              This untethered secular-left agenda of which you speak — have you noticed how it crops up mainly in institutions of higher learning? Similarly, Communism only crops up among landless peasants. Aquinas generally pops up either in some History of Philosophy course or among priests and prelates who are intent upon squeezing the calloused foot of reason into the glass slipper of theology.

              Horses for courses, Mr. Van Dyke. Every weed grows well in its own soil. There’s a Catholic church I walk past on the way to work. Upon it is an inscription in Latin, from Anselm: fides quaerens intellectum, faith seeking understanding. We of the Left are not so stupid as to deny faith.

              But we do believe faith should seek understanding and that might imply Aquinas was dead wrong when he said human salvation demands the divine disclosure of truths surpassing reason. God will not think for us, Tom. He gave us minds for that task. God does not speak to us through divine revelation alone. He also speaks to us through mathematics, through the application of reason itself.

              You can go on stinking up this joint with your babbling and ranting about Radical Individualism. I was created in the image of God and so were all my fellow men and women. The very idea, that I must conform to some other standard, that’s all a bit silly. I won’t do it and if I find more in common with some honest atheist than some whey-faced priest, intent upon loading me up with guilt, I would rather go to Hell than endure an eternity with such enemies of reason.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                Man is not his own salvation, Blaise. And until your reply grew sour, I was reading with interest, great interest. I think you are wrong about half of things, either your premises or conclusions, but you are not one to ever cheat the argument.

                At least with me.

                At your age—and mine—I have no hope of convincing you of anything. But unlike the replies of my ballbiters, most of which I skip, I read all your replies with hope and delight. Your thoughts and opinions are your own, and for that reason alone are worthy.

                Better a single hedgehog than a thousand mugwumps. here’s to you, Brother Hedgehog.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Man may not be his own salvation but he is his brother’s keeper. You keep coming around here, annoying people with cheap mantras within quotes. Maybe you need to graduate from Catholicism, for ever was that rotten old institution the dispenser of fatuous bromides and bumper sticker theology. And guilt. Would that half of you would read your Bibles.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                Would that half of you would read your Bibles.

                If they did, they wouldn’t be Catholics.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                They’re too busy kissing the Gospel to read it.Report

            • Avatar Kazzy says:

              My point is that my understanding of “social justice” is largely that of St. Thomas Aquinas.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Not really. Aquinas was a great justifier of Social Injustice and the execution of heretics, of wars and the divine rights of abusive monarchy.Report

          • Avatar James Hanley says:

            Makes me bristle because I still don’t get what the adjective social adds to the concept justice. Then again, the word justice makes me bristle, but I’ve already told the story about walking out of that class.Report

            • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

              the word justice makes me bristle,

              Me not so much, unless it’s followed by the word “Scalia”.Report

            • Avatar LWA (liberal With Attitude) says:

              Being only a layworker in Social Justice, I can’t speak expertly on Aquinas, but only observe that at the street level, the adjective is used to describe the moral obligation of society to those who are powerless or marginalized.

              So it could refer to those who are financially poor, or those who are shunned, or those who, like women, find their human diginity tossed into the meatgrinder of economics.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                the moral obligation of society

                Heh, and here we go again. I’ll lay off this time, though. You gave me an explanation, so it’s not the proper place for me to repeat my rant.Report

              • Avatar LWA (liberal With Attitude) says:

                Agreed, James, in that there isn’t really an argument when it reaches the point of opposing values, which we surely have; it isn’t a lack of reasoning on eaither of our parts, or logic, or access to data.

                Maybe my most valued insight taken from all my engagements here is just that- that Libertarians just place a different value on things than traditional conservatives and liberals, at the very deepest conceptual root.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                If only that were what social justice meant, Mr. Attitude. What you describe was known as “Christian charity.”Report

              • Avatar Jeff No-Last-Name says:

                Emphasis on the “WAS”. Not in my lifetime, much less yours.Report

  9. Avatar Kazzy says:

    Education = indoctrination. And vice versa. I really don’t know how you do one without the other.Report

    • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

      Socratic education?Report

      • Avatar Kazzy says:

        Even invoking the Socratic method is, itself, a form of indoctrination. It communicates a set of values about how discourse and education should take place.

        You can’t avoid transmitting values.

        When I teach my PreK-ers not to hit, I am indoctrinating. But very few people object to this because, by and large, we all sort of agree that hitting is wrong. But it is still indoctrination. People only tend to balk about indoctrination when it is values or beliefs that they don’t agree with that are being transmitted. And there certainly ought to be limits on that which we transmit; just don’t pretend it isn’t still happening.

        Dewey had a quote that I’ll paraphrase as such: “Do you think it is a coincidence that most Soviet children grow up to be communists and most American children grow up to be capitalists?”Report

    • Avatar James K says:

      Not true. All education is indoctrination, but the reverse is not true.Report

      • Avatar Stillwater says:

        I’d even sever the education – indoctrination arrow. Unless “indoctrination” is understood really broadly, there is such a thing as an education without indoctrination. Sometimes a person is just learning the facts of the matter. The trades are an example of this. Physics and math are pretty clear cases as well. So it seems to me.

        Do you think the discipline of economics is based on “indoctrination”? I hope not, because you’ve been convincing me for the last coupla years that that isn’t so.Report

  10. Avatar James Hanley says:

    Burt’s little story described my life perfectly, right down to the whiskey on the bookshelf (not that it’s actually very well hidden).

    I’m a bit critical of both the prof and the student, though. The student sounds like a rather typical douche, the type who comes into college already knowing everything they actually want to know, and just wanting to have that repeated to them until they get a degree in learning what they already knew. I once taught a course called “Problems in U.S. Politics,” and had students read liberal and conservative opinions on different issues, and in leading discussion I stayed strictly neutral and gave each approach a serious hearing. Two student evaluations stood out: One read, “I’m sick of all these left-wing professors,” and the other said, “I can’t believe I was forced to sit through all this right wing yay, America bullshit.” One liberal, one conservative, both hoping to major in learning what they already knew.

    But I teach a methods and analysis class, too, and I don’t see that as an appropriate statement on the syllabus. It does seem overly confrontational right off the bat. The assumption it makes about students may be on target, but it’s still throwing a negative assumption in their face before the instructor even gets to know them. It’s much better to just quietly challenge their assumptions all along the way, and as they develop the research project for their methods class to insist on the little details, whether in the type of data collected, or the way they word a survey, etc., that directs them away from those assumptions. I’m persuaded it works better. Heck, look at this blog. The more any of us throw those negative assumptions out there right off the bat, the less thoughtful the ensuing discussion inevitably becomes.Report

    • Avatar Kazzy says:

      “It’s much better to just quietly challenge their assumptions all along the way, and as they develop the research project for their methods class to insist on the little details, whether in the type of data collected, or the way they word a survey, etc., that directs them away from those assumptions.”

      Admitting to being a bit snarky but mostly serious, how much is THIS statement assuming maleness or whiteness or whathaveyou? Do you think it might be easier for you, a white male, to patiently bide your time and wait for opportune “teachable moments” to confront privilege than it would be for a black woman?Report

      • Avatar James Hanley says:

        You read this blog, Kazzy. Just how easy do you think it is for _me_ to be patient? 😉

        But your point is well taken. Students who can’t move beyond their own views bother me greatly. But it surely doesn’t bother me as much as someone who’s not white and male (and undoubtedly I miss more of it than someone who’s not white and male). But as a functional matter, it’s not a productive way to go. In fact, the very fact of my being white and male probably means that _I_ could actually use that confrontational method more readily, because I’m “one of them” making that demand. It’s easy enough for students to simply reject it from a guy like me, but will be even easier to reject it from a black female professor because it plays right into their preconceived stereotypes. As much harder as it might be for the black female prof, a more subtle approach is probably–unfortunately–even more necessary in order to be successful.Report

        • Avatar Kazzy says:

          I think it depends on the precise “function” the professor is aiming for.

          Was she aiming to make them better writers who made less assumptions about perspective? Or was she making the learning environment more tolerable for people like herself and students who might also be from something other than a white, male, American, etc. perspective?Report

        • Avatar Kim says:

          *snort* you’re quite patient.Report

      • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

        I had this same thought on Mr. Hanley’s, and many other, comments. I’m impressed (surprised?) that you picked up on this, Mr. Kazzy.

        This blog is exasperatingly obtuse about these things. Too white. Too male. No Very little idea of what it is like for others.Report

        • Avatar Jaybird says:

          So, JHG, I’ll ask you these questions:
          To what extent can it be said that we, here, write and speak in a way that does not assume American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, middle-class status, etc. to be the norm? To what extent do we fail to use “inclusive language” as “a fundamental issue of social justice”?Report

          • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

            To what extent can it be said that we, here, write and speak in a way that does not assume American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, middle-class status, etc. to be the norm?

            I fear that this will lead to (require?) a deeper dive than I have the strength to hold my breath for. In no particular order, and for the sake of brevity:

            – Many of the posts on this site are what I would refer to as “First World Problems That White People Have Or Think About”. Of course, this isn’t the only site that does it. But, it reinforces to me that y’all are white males almost every time I come to this site.
            – This site tolerates some pretty amazing deviants. Some are gone, but many are still here and tolerated. You don’t think they’re that bad. You’re wrong (from my perspective).
            – Every fishing image or picture is based on that worldview. Could we have some people of color occasionally? Women? Maybe even some gay people, if it wouldn’t upset some FPers too much? How about a post with some Mexicans, when the post isn’t about immigration? How about showing a black family, when the post is about families and the suburbs and good values?
            – Bowler hats – really? Cmon. Could you BE any more white male elite than that? Seriously.
            – I have a really hard time separating talk about/with libertarians from American-ness, maleness, whiteness, hetero-ness, middle-class status-ness, etc. So, I see those qualities every time talk drifts to libertarian-ness, or when the OP is about libertarian-ness. Which is often. The reason for this is because it is your starting point for almost every discussion. The kind of Liberty that non-whites want is entirely different than the kind of Liberty that most libertarians talk about on this site.
            – The things that are important to people who are not white, male, hetero, middle-class, etc. (in my experience) tend to not be the things that are talked about here very much, if at all. People in those other groups think that other topics are much more important. I see more of this different perspective in the subsites, particularly Blinded Trials, even though there is (I assume) a white male and a white female on that site.
            – With all this said, I (grudgingly?) say that this group surprises me at times with their openness when you see behind the curtain a little bit to what it’s like for “others”, or when it’s pointed out to you or you are challenged, or you decide to see how life is different on the other side of the fence (a simple example would be your discussion about “The Talk” with your black friend at work).

            To what extent do we fail to use “inclusive language” as “a fundamental issue of social justice”?

            It’s not so much “inclusive language” as it is “inclusive perspectives”. So much Liberty talk is really “First World White-Person Liberty” talk to me. This site gets into the weeds pretty fast. Most people I know who aren’t white and male don’t talk like this. What is the Hayekian meaning? Is this Rawlsian or von Misesian or Hegelian? You have NO IDEA WHAT LIBERTARIANISM MEANS YOU STUPID LIBERAL!!1!!! Is ACA constitutional or not, from a Federalist perspective (not including early Madison, but including later Jefferson). If X happens then Y, but Z before A, carry the 1. Those people don’t pay taxes, and my labor is being taxed to provide for them!!!1!

            If you’re ready for some honesty, you guys sound like white male graduate students most of the time to me. Not everyone. And, not all the time. But, enough.

            The people I know who aren’t white, or male, or middle-class, or hetro, or etc. are thinking about and worrying about completely different things. How will my kids get ahead when so much of society is already set against them getting ahead? Will I lose my job if my boss finds out I’m gay? What would happen if I got sick and lost my job? Where can I find some more work, make a few extra bucks? How little can I eat today, so that I can save money? If I play music loud in my car (in Florida) will some crazy white guy come by and shoot me? What am I going to do to try to get my kids a good education when the schools that are available for people like me are the worst in the county/state/country? Should I be more respectful, so I don’t get any unwanted attention on me? Can I get this job, even though I’m not white? And, on, and on.

            Don’t know if this is the answer you are looking for, but these are the answers that came to mind when I read your comment at the top, and again here.Report

            • Avatar Kazzy says:


              I don’t disagree with everything you’ve said here, but I will disagree with a few key points:

              1.) I get the White People Problems (WPP) meme, even calling folks out on it myself (not really here, but elsewhere). A problem I have with it is that it is inherently dismissive. It’s basically saying, “Quit complaining, dude.” I’m not a fan of that. People’s feelings are real, no matter how lacking in perspective they might be. Instead, offer the perspective you feel is lacking instead of deriding those who lack it.
              2.) We have a good mix of gay folks here, both as authors and commenters. In my experience, these folks have the freedom to speak as individuals who are not seen as representing their sexual orientation and as offering a unique perspective informed by it, depending on the topic and the tack.
              3.) “If you’re ready for some honesty, you guys sound like white male graduate students most of the time to me. Not everyone. And, not all the time. But, enough.” Well, most of us are. Or at least were grad students at some point. So it is not shocking that that is how we come off. Which doesn’t excuse this. There are several avenues we could take to adjust for this, which some folks oppose because they believe the “us-ness” of this site is part of what makes it what it is, which they enjoy. I can’t fault this perspective even if I disagree with it, but do know that these things are known and sometimes discussed, if not necessarily given the weight or attention that you or I might hope for.Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                1. Getting to the point in the discussion where I can actually offer the perspective that I feel is lacking takes more time than I have available during the day. I tend to be blunt in the limited time I have (or even more than a bit blunt). This is one of the White People Problems I’m talking about. I don’t have as much time to post on blogs as you do. And, ironically, this is exactly what you called Mr. Hanley out for (to which I responded originally).

                2. My comment about gay folks was to celebrate them the way that white, hetro, middle-class males are celebrated in picture and image on this site. I appreciate the gay voices on this site, for it brings some variety. If they weren’t here, I would probably not read the site. But, they are closeted when it comes to images.

                3. You end up seeming like a tribe (like white male graduate students), and work hard to haze any that you might allow in, while forcing a certain conformity on them once they are granted acceptance in the group. At least, that’s the way it seems to me. Hey, fine by me. It’s your (royal your) site, not mine. I’m just a surreptitious intruder most of the time.

                Thanks for the clarification and response. I thought it deserved my response, in kind.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                “You end up seeming like a tribe (like white male graduate students), and work hard to haze any that you might allow in, while forcing a certain conformity on them once they are granted acceptance in the group. At least, that’s the way it seems to me. Hey, fine by me. It’s your (royal your) site, not mine. I’m just a surreptitious intruder most of the time.”

                I agree with you wholly on this. It is actually something I push back on, when I can, with limited success. If you have the time, look up a piece (which is really just a reprint of someone else’s work) I posted on “The Elephant and the Giraffe” or something like that. It didn’t get much mileage, but it addressed the ideas of how we define our community (and, again, the whole piece was lifted with credit).

                Re: WPP, I should clarify and say that I think this group in particular might be a bit hostile to such a charge being levied, even if it is wholly accurate, for the reasons I offered. I have actually challenged many a libertarian on the way in which the presentation of the world view comes of as such and fails to garner support with communities that might actually be better served by the adoption of its ideologies. My common refrain is to note that many libertarians’ focus on property rights is eerily silent on the complete disrespect offered to Native Americans’ property rights claims (and not just the broader, more abstract ones; actually broken treaties with the gov). Hanley, to his credit, is a notable exception in actually taking up this challenge, both in responding to it and noting Libertarians’ struggle in this area. So, yea, there is a lot of WPP crap that goes on here but I don’t think slamming down a #WPP on things is going to make much of a difference here, as tempting as it might be.Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                I think this group in particular might be a bit hostile to such a charge being levied

                Yeah, yathink?

                So, yea, there is a lot of WPP crap that goes on here but I don’t think slamming down a #WPP on things is going to make much of a difference here, as tempting as it might be.

                Oh, I don’t expect it to make any difference at all.

                But, how can you have a conversation with someone who doesn’t see something without saying,…well…you aren’t seeing something. Please recall that I was responding to Jaybirds question about “American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, middle-class status, etc”. I can’t answer that question honestly without mentioning that this site concentrates on WPP to whatever extent.

                I try posting comments occasionally that get directly to the perspective I’m trying to get others to see. You know what happens 9 times out of 10. No response. No engagement. No acknowledgment. After a while, you learn what you’re being taught: we don’t respond to those comments. That’s cool. I get it.Report

              • Avatar Boegiboe says:

                I comment a lot less than I used to, largely because the reason I comment is for engagement, and I rarely get that. After withdrawing some and then coming back, I’m realizing the problem is not my point of view so much as my speed of discourse. I’m a dinghy amongst hydrofoils.Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                Very insightful, Mr. Boegiboe.

                I’m realizing the problem is not my point of view so much as my speed of discourse.

                I think I am afflicted with the same disease.

                I’m a dinghy amongst hydrofoils.

                That made me smile.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                “3. You end up seeming like a tribe (like white male graduate students), and work hard to haze any that you might allow in, while forcing a certain conformity on them once they are granted acceptance in the group. ”

                Isn’t this true of any group?

                I can see that there are problems here, e.g. TVD isn’t shunned by everyone when he is sexist.

                But is the mere fact that there are rules and subtle pressures to conform a problem? At all. Pressure to conform can be a good thing if the pressure is to be good, e.g. to be less racist, less sexist, more friendly and charitable, more clear and persuasive and thoughtful.


              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                Isn’t this true of any group?


                But is the mere fact that there are rules and subtle pressures to conform a problem?

                No, but it can be. If the conformity forces me to behave in ways that make white people comfortable, and never in ways that make them uncomfortable, what then? I’ll guess that most people here are never forced into the conformity of other groups, or only for very limited time periods and situations. How would you feel if you were in a group where you had to say “Ni-CLANG, you crazy!” to conform.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                “How would you feel if you were in a group where you had to say “Ni-CLANG, you crazy!” to conform”

                Amazed at how easy it is to conform to that group. My guess is it would take more.

                My impoverished, alcoholic rural home town requires me to say hateful things about my current urban life to conform, though so I get what you’re saying, I think. Conformity can be an ugly, monstrous thing.

                Can you be more specific about the bad crap you have to conform to here? I can think of things but am interested to hear your perspective, on what the bad stuff that people conform to here.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                The tendency to yell “race card” whenever folks want to discuss racism is a pressure to not talk about racism.

                The tendency to yell “PC” whenever folks want to discuss privilege is a pressure to not talk about privilege.

                The tendency to yell “ungentlemanly” whenever folks speak angrily about offenses put forth is a pressure to not talk about those offenses.

                These often spin off into very meta conversations that never get at the heart of the matter. Too often conversations about sexism or racism or privilege of whathaveyou turn into conversations about whether or not it is fair to levy those charges instead of how much sexism, racism, privilege, or whathaveyou is actually present and what to do about it.Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                My guess is it would take more.

                Certainly, and it’s heartening to see that you get that. Conformity is a series of steps that push towards the mean. I suppose I was really saying: what if that was the norm and you were forced to deal with it every day? A movie that grappled with this idea directly, then abandoned it after the (spoiler) in favor of ACTION!, is called White Man’s Burden (Belafonte and Travolta).

                Can you be more specific about the bad crap you have to conform to here? I can think of things but am interested to hear your perspective, on what the bad stuff that people conform to here.

                Mr. Kazzy lists a few, below. I’d add that often my comments are treated as outside the norm, and not given the same level of engagement as comments within the norm. And, as Mr. Kazzy notes below, a common reaction to something outside the norm is to turn the discussion to something else that is related but more comfortable (meta conversations).

                I feel this in most parts of my life. It can be a bit better here, though, sometimes. That’s why I decided to stay around and comment occasionally.

                There isn’t much bad crap that I have to conform to here, other than what I’ve already written about above and in other threads. My point was to address your statement about conformity not being a problem. Conformity is necessary, to an extent, but it is also used to control.Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                Mr. Kazzy’s comment ABOVE, not below.Report

            • Avatar Jaybird says:

              If they’re honest answers, they’re perfect.

              (I’ve rewritten this next part four times.)

              I can’t write many of the essays you seem to indicate you’d like to read and/or share with people like us (and I don’t think that many of us can write them either). If I am going to read them, I need you (or someone like you) to write them.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:


                I don’t know if saying you can’t is entirely fair. There are things you could do, steps you could take, that would put you in a better (though likely not the best) position to write those essays than you are now.

                What I think JHG may be getting at (or, at least, where I am going to run with this) is thusly (and I’ll be discussing privilege in both points so double-eyeroll now, please):

                1.) Your privilege, as a straight, educated, white, American, male does not require you to understand a perspective outside your own. You can write as you do and be understood by a great number of people simply for being yourself. A black guy, or a lesbian, or an immigrant, whatever…. writing from his/her perspective as strongly as you write from your perspective would be seen as “niche” in some way. To gain the audience that you have just as a function of being you, they must be either astoundingly exceptional at what they do OR be capable of writing from or at least cognizant of a different perspective.
                2.) Because much of your identify is reflected in the majority of society, you have the privilege of being unaware of it. You are Jaybird, the bearded gamer who tells a great story. But Rose? Well, she’s our female blogger. Me? I’m the weird jock/PreK teacher hybrid. TNC? Oh yea, he’s the black guy at “The Atlantic”. As such, you are not defined by your perspective in the same way others might be, because your perspective is seen as unique to you and not representative of a larger group with which you are affiliated. This is not so for many other folks. You could write, explicitly, as a white male, which alone would bring you closer to writing the types of essays JHG might be looking for (and to your credit, you do do this, which he notes above). TNC, no matter how hard he tries, will always write as a black guy, explicitly.

                Please note I don’t mean to necessarily levy these charges are you. You just made the statement that sent me rambling. I think you, personally, are one of the folks here who best gets “perspective” in a meta way.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                The kind of Liberty that non-whites want is entirely different than the kind of Liberty that most libertarians talk about on this site.

                I’d be interested in a post from this perspective.

                To Kazzy:

                I don’t know if saying you can’t is entirely fair. There are things you could do, steps you could take, that would put you in a better (though likely not the best) position to write those essays than you are now.

                I’ve thought about trying to write a post about the public education system in Pasadena. My kids are in public school, my wife is president of the PTA, I’m on the school site council. “We’re heavily involved, active parents” would be an understatement.

                Our public school is predominantly Hispanic, but even the Black/African American population outnumbers the white kids.

                I can write about what I see and experience there, and dribbles of this will connect to the Black Experience in public schooling, or the Hispanic Experience, or the Immigrant Experience. But I can’t write from those perspectives.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                You can’t write from those perspectives, no. But you could write in such a way that demonstrated an awareness and understanding of those perspectives.

                Truth be told, I’m not entirely sure what “types” of essays JB was referring to in his comment, so I might have been riffing at windmills.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                Writing in such a way that demonstrates awareness of those perspectives, I try to do that generally with “perspectives that aren’t mine”, in most of my posts. Which is why I may come across as wishy-washy sometimes, I suppose.

                Understanding? Egads, that’s the sort of thing that smacks of privilege. I can’t write in a way that demonstrates understanding. I can only write what I write, and those who read it can decide if it demonstrates understanding or not.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                Let me clarify…

                Demonstrating awareness simply means you are cognizant that experiences/perspectives outside your own exist. For instance, someone saying, “I don’t understand why anyone would be anxious when being pulled over a police officer?” demonstrates a fundamental lack of awareness that someone’s experience in that situation might differ from his own.

                Demonstrating understanding means you have a certain knowledge of the perspective. You are right that the level of understanding can generally only be confirmed after-the-fact.

                For the record, I certainly don’t mean to indicate anything about YOUR writing in particular. I’m simply trying (and probably failing) to get at our collective ability to write the types of essays that JB thinks JHG would like to see here, fully conceding I’m still not entirely sure what types of essays either of the two is talking about.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                Dude, I am a white dude with a philosophy degree.

                Any understanding of issues that I have will be written from the perspective of a white dude with a philosophy degree.

                When I write about immigration, I write about it as a white dude who thinks that we should have open borders. When I write about drug policy, I write about it as a white dude who thinks we should have legal laudanum (AGAIN).

                I can’t write about immigration and give a good, solid, Mexican perspective. I can’t write about drug policy with the perspective of a parent.

                There are things that I have not experienced and going with “well, try to imagine experiencing them” makes me think of the difference between making love and being sixteen in my bed with the lights out trying to imagine experiencing making love.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                Are you conscious of your whiteness when you write?
                Do you ever assert your perspective as accepted truth?

                Also, maybe it’s not what you do write but what you don’t write. Maybe those of us who haven’t been intimately impacted by immigration should stop writing about immigration. Or those of us who haven’t interacted intimately with the criminal justice system or the drug trade should stop writing about the drug war. Not for ever. But maybe for a little while.

                Another community norm at these workshops/conferences: Step up, step back. Be sure to contribute your voice, but also leave airspace for other voices. Maybe if a bunch of white, American-born folks stopped talking about immigration, deliberately so, we’d end up with a richer conversation on the subject.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                Well, let’s check my last 10 posts.

                I’ve got:
                Complaining about mayo on hamburgers (White thing? Let’s say Neutral.)
                Dan Bern (White thing.)
                Game of Thrones (White thing.)
                Musing on what legal weed means (Neutral.)
                Election Day open thread (I played music by the Flobots. White thing? Let’s say Neutral.)
                I posted a video of myself telling a pirate joke (White thing.)
                Poetry by Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr (White thing? Probably.)
                Time Capsule post in which I harkened back to our election day predictions and asked for new ones. (White thing? Let’s say Neutral.)
                Tebow (White thing.)
                The Baby Baby Baby Baby Baby open thread had songs by Bieber, TLC, and Led Zep. (Those balance out, all in all, let’s say Neutral.)

                Out of those 10, 4 definite White Things, 1 probable White Thing, 3 possible White Things, and 2 Neutral things.

                I can go back and do that for “male” and “heterosexual” but I really don’t wanna.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                You don’t want to. And don’t have to.

                Other folks do. Some folks have to scour every piece they write to make sure they aren’t coming off “too black” or “too female” or “too gay”. Because if they are, they are dismissed as the angry black man or whiney feminist or having a gay agenda. You can write about the plague of mayo on hamburgers and no one says, “Fucking Christ, what is wrong with white people?” And if they were to, they’d quickly be shot down, as JHG is here.Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                Some folks have to scour every piece they write to make sure they aren’t coming off “too black” or “too female” or “too gay”.

                It’s heartening to see that you get this, Mr. Kazzy. This is really the focus of my comment on WPP. Those perspectives are the norm. Mine are not. I usually spend a lot of time re-reading my comments before posting (with some obvious exceptions). More than half the time, I delete the comment completely and post nothing. It’s a defense mechanism. Better to say nothing. “Don’t give them a reason. You have to be better than them, work harder than them, be more understanding than them.” as my Dad says (and I now say to my kids).

                However, I get Jaybird’s point. We’ve had many jaunty discussions on this topic. I don’t expect him to understand this completely, but only to carve out space for other experiences and perspectives. We most often disagree when he hasn’t carved out this space or I haven’t carved out this space (usually because of an Assumption). I don’t disagree with him here, for he is carving out extra space and is actually agreeing with what you are saying, I think. He just doesn’t put it in the way that you are putting it. That’s ok.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:


                I apologize for not knowing this but, if I may ask, do you identify as African-American/black?Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                Just speaking for lil’ ol’ me here, but I’d appreciate this site more if it was more AA-inflected. 😉 My point being: feel free to NOT self-censor.Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                Kazzy, yes.

                Kim, I’ll try.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                And, because I don’t want to give the impression that I’m just going to post about cooking, I’m not going to have my first guestpost (other than at MD) be about pizza.Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                Yeah, I’m still working on my first post: “Why we all spend so much time here trying to prove to each other that we’re smart, or, better yet, smarter than YOU, you lying bastard!?”

                (those are all undirected “you”s that are directed at the reader of the unfinished and barely existent post)

                Here’s some final honesty: I do have some posts I would write, but they wouldn’t be about these different perspectives. I’ve written mini-missives of these different perspectives in the comments of many posts. It’s exhausting, and I rarely feel like I get anything out of it, nor does anyone else. Maybe others do, but I don’t.

                I’ll think about writing a post someday. Y’all probably won’t like it, though, cause it will make you feel defensive from the start. Same familiar steps, but very different music playing.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                Ain’t nothing wrong with writing a post people don’t like. If it is the kind people REALLY don’t like, it will be one of the most popular.

                At many of the “diversity” workshops I attend, a community norm is “Lean into discomfort”. I think we’d do well to adopt something similar here, so that we might learn from the types of posts you might write.

                Also, here’s a link to the Elephant/Giraffe post. Easier for me to dig up than you, I’d gather. Like I said, I wish this launched more conversation but, what can ya do?


              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                I’m not sure that the allure of a “popular” post is enough to entice JHG to write one.

                Just throwin that out there.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                Sure. But I know that I will probably benefit from having read it. And there is a possibility the LoOG might. While it might generate more heat than light, it will still generate light, which is better than darkness. And maybe we’ll reach a point where we can reflect on the types of posts that generate heat and why that is. AND THEN maybe we’ll reach a point where we are willing to listen to constructive criticism even if it comes from unfamiliar sources or is couched in a language or manner other than we are accustomed to and can recognize such challenges as opportunities to improve individually and collectively.

                AND THEN MAYBE WE’LL ALL GET PONIES!Report

              • Something that tends to be forgotten, perhaps especially around here, is that sometimes people say/write things that aren’t appropriate for others’ agreement or disagreement – indeed, in such cases there’s not anything to agree or disagree with, and to attempt to do either is to miss the point. On such occasions, it is appropriate only to listen very closely.

                Simply put – not everything is supposed to be an argument. Sometimes folks just write to inform, and it’s hard to inform people who want to argue. Informing is more valuable than arguing, but arguing is easier than listening.

                Probably no commenter does more to inform me on this site than JHG, but I didn’t start to understand him until I stopped feeling the need to either agree or disagree with him when he stopped by.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                Mark, you are so wrong, and let me tell you why…


              • Avatar James Hanley says:


                Speaking of white things…Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                Informing is more valuable than arguing, but arguing is easier than listening.

                This is very wise.

                I find your posts and comments to be informing, as well, Mr. Thompson.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                The “write a guest post about all the things I already know” comment.


              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                write a guest post about all the things I already know

                I’m pretty sure that I asked him to write the things that he wanted to see that I couldn’t, myself, write.

                One of the paragraphs I didn’t include in my original comment was that I was, in fact, white, male, heterosexual, and middle-class. Writing from a different perspective is not an option. The best I can do is write on topics where, it seems to me, being white, or male, or heterosexual, or middle-class, is tangential.

                Of course, those things will make me sound like a graduate student.

                I can’t write the essay he wishes he could read here.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                I’m pretty sure that I asked him to write the things that he wanted to see that I couldn’t, myself, write.

                That you already agree with? Then there’s no point in writing the post.

                That you quite possible don’t agree with? Then JHG’s main argument holds.

                It seems to me.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                That you quite possible don’t agree with? Then JHG’s main argument holds.

                And if I were the only reader, I imagine that that counter-argument would mean much more.

                There are a lot of people who would read us and a lot of people who would benefit from a perspective like JHG’s that I cannot provide.

                Whether or not I agree with it. (Which, quite honestly, strikes me as irrelevant. Why in the hell does whether or not I agree with it mean any frigging thing at all?)Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:


                Ok. Let’s say that, hypothetically, I have a post that I’d like someone to work with me on. And that, hypothetically, I might want to post it here. A post where a libertarian could state the (or their) libertarian position on a specific Liberty, followed by my position on the specific Liberty. And, we could then see the differences and similarities. I would still want a certain amount of control over what was ultimately written, but am willing to work this out as a pair.

                I can summarize libertarians, but fear that any post where I tried to do that would devolve into “Stupid liberals never understand libertarians!”.

                Would you be interested (or anyone else) in helping me with it? If so, what do I do now? Where would I send it? My email address is attached (hidden, I assume) to my comments. If you have access to that, you could email me there.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                I’m not sure I’m really the right guy to talk much about positions on liberty (I’m more of just a policy guy). And I’m not an FPer, although Erik and Tod are generous about letting me guest post. But if nobody better suited than me volunteers, I’d be willing to work with you under the conditions you stipulate. My email is my first initial and last name at

              • Avatar Jaybird says:

                Dude, I would be honored.

                I may not be the best guy on Libertarianism. I’m more of a crazy “PRIVATIZE THE SIDEWALKS!” layperson who reads a lot. One of the cats that never gets herded… but I’d be thrilled.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                You’re a good egg, JB.Report

            • Avatar Stillwater says:

              Awesome! JHG, you need to comment here more often.

              And I say that as one of the white guys you may be criticizing critiquing.Report

            • Avatar Kim says:

              oh, boy! in Florida!
              My husband was driving on the wrong side of the road (detouring around a police barricade for road work). It was late at night, and we were dead tired. He thought he was avoiding a car wreck.

              The policeman Had.Words with him. But that was all. Just a warning.

              He turned to me later and said if I had been driving, I’d have gotten a ticket at least. And if either of us had been black? We’d probably have been out of the car, and searched to boot.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                Shit. … Just got this anecdote, from redneck-Florida:
                “I been trying to tell people, they’re freaking crazy around here. Remember I posted about the poor bastard a couple towns over that went to talk to the neighbor about calling the neighborhood kids the n word and dude decided to just blast him in the face when he opened the door. When the sheriff arrived he told the sheriff: “I shot me a n word”. Yep.”

                … this is the sort of anecdote someone’s sharing on an ECONOMICS blog? Dammit, things are really bad down there, ain’t they?Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                The Florida reference was to Jordan Russel Davis. Though the anecdotes are not surprising. Not for Florida. For America.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                Yeah. PA (where I live) is the modern home of the KKK. It can get real bad in certain places. You see 88 grafitti, turn around and go the other way.Report

            • Avatar BlaiseP says:

              The League is just a tiny outpost in the suburbs of a vast and noisy Internet galaxy. Yes, we are mostly white guys but we do have Rose and other women who grace this site ever and anon. I grew up outside that First World, in Africa and France. Most of my life has been lived outside the USA. My family has been involved in the civil rights struggle since the early 1940s and I have tried in my own way to represent something beyond those Problems White People Think About.

              Say what you want to about the bowler hat, it was never elitist. The bowler hat was originally a workingman’s hat, a forerunner of the hard hat, very tough and strong. It was always part of a work uniform, not of management or the toffs but of the clerks, the working joes. Those cowboy hats seen in the movies? All nonsense: in those times, all horsemen wore bowler hats. It was Charlie Chaplin’s hat. The old billycock, as it’s called in the UK, is never worn as formal dress. That’s the top hat.

              In the words of Gandhi, you must be the change you want to see in the world. And you must be that change here on LoOG. If we sound a bit precious and high-strung about the struggle between Liberals and Libertarians, may I recommend The Road to Serfdom by Hayek as an excellent starting point. It is an important book, as important as anything Orwell wrote. Though I am not a Libertarian, it shaped my life very early and instilled in me a great hatred of tyranny, especially of Communism. Look Magazine did a small cartoon version of it which you will find here.

              I would be interested to know how you, a non-white kinda guy, would respond to Hayek’s arguments about Road to Serfdom, for if ever there was a culture which has cynically contemplated the fine words of Freedom Offered and the brutal reality of Freedom Denied, surely it must be yours.

              Do you feel you’ve been hazed? That’s unfortunate, and if you were given cause to feel hazed, I think I can speak for everyone in apologising for it. It’s pretty intense here. We care about this stuff. Maybe we care too much. We feel these things are important.

              If we seem similar in some respects, if we talk about Hayek and Mises and Rawls, it is because we do care about the very causes you lay out: your children in this sick society, the terrible schools they are forced to attend, the fear of consequences for just being yourself, the free fall to the sidewalk if you get sick, scrimping on food, your fear of crazy bigots beating on you for playing your music too loud. All that, John, and very much more, is very much on our minds.

              Only when we talk about solutions, we argue over who is responsible and why they ought to be responsible and what are the unintended consequences of some proposed solution and most of all, who’s going to pay for it. Mises and Rawls and Hayek and Marx and the rest of these Dead White Guys had lots to say about these things, very important things which would affect the entire world, not just White People. The Libertarians say the Individual ought to stand up for his own rights in the world and in this they are absolutely correct. The Liberals say we ought to stand together and pool our resources and powers to set the world to rights. And we are both wrong in isolation and it gnaws at us, to know the other side has some essential aspect of some fallacy in our own positions. That’s why we fight like dogs over this stuff, truth be known.

              But we’re not a tribe. We’re just a bunch of people who come in from the darkness of our lives into the firelight of this place. We hunker down and talk. I know tribes from Africa and Laos and Guatemala. You have to be born into a tribe. A tribe enforces conformity. We don’t. I reject the charge of tribalism here at LoOG.Report

        • Avatar James Hanley says:

          For the record, JHG, please feel free to call me out if Kazzy doesn’t. I can be a bit of a slow learner, but I promise I try.Report

          • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

            I’ll try, but it is unlikely that I will mention it every time I think it or see it. Maybe I’ll mention it 1 in 10, but I’ll try.Report

            • Avatar James Hanley says:

              1 in 10 is cool. I’m not trying to burden you with a responsibility, just grant you the comfort of knowing I won’t flame you in response.Report

        • Avatar Kazzy says:


          As you get to know me here, you’ll learn that I do a lot of work on “diversity” and try to call out privilege when I see it, sometimes erring on the side of seeing it where it ain’t.

          While I don’t think you’re criticism about the LoOG here is wholly off-base, I think it a bit (or maybe more than a bit) blunt.Report

    • Avatar Chris says:

      I can agree with the use of the statement in the syllabus was probably inappropriate (though we haven’t seen the syllabus, so I don’t want to judge too quickly). Instead, the prof would have done well to teach that as part of the method.

      Also, here’s how my conversations with students about papers have generally gone:

      “Why did you give me a C on my paper?”

      “Well, for one, you didn’t include elements X, Y, and Z that the assignment called for. In addition, you used text message spellings, your verb agreements were worse than mine in a blog comment [OK, I wouldn’t really say it like that], instead of using the third person (as the APA style manual requires), you wrote everything in the first person, including your discussion of experiments you got from the literature [I actually had a student do that once], and in general, I couldn’t figure out what the hell you were saying.”

      “But I’ve gotten an A on every paper I’ve ever written! My English Comp instructor told me I was one of the best writers he’d ever taught, and that I should consider writing as a career! This is not fair! I spent three days straight doing nothing but writing that paper! And my mother’s in the hospital! And my dog died! And I just found out I have some rare tropical disease! This class is the hardest class I’ve ever taken! Your standards are too high! I talked to my academic adviser and he said I have to get at least a B in this class to get into grad school! Can I rewrite it?! This isn’t fair! If I don’t get a B in this class I’m going to talk to my academic adviser. I’m going to file a complaint. I’ve always gotten A’s on my papers! [Near tears. Checks vibrating phone. Replies to text message in the middle of a sentence.] This is not fair!”Report

      • Avatar Kazzy says:

        I had a similar moment as a student. I got a pretty crappy grade freshmen year after customarily getting mostly straight A’s and A-‘s in high school. I approached the prof about withdrawing because I thought I could do better a second time. She told me, pretty bluntly that not only was a WD worse than a C, but, “Hey, welcome to college. This isn’t high school anymore.” I got the message and quick. Stuck with the class, took my C, got myself better situated for second semester and understood that the big leagues took a different effort than the minors. I also had a teacher for a mom, which helped…Report

        • Avatar Chris says:

          I actually remember a lot of the students who’ve given me such speeches, because a lot of them really could have done better, but for one reason or another (and the reason was usually pretty clear), hadn’t. And I usually told them something like, “Look, I do not doubt that you’ve always gotten A’s, because I see that potential in you, but you thought that because you’ve always gotten A’s, you didn’t even have to try anymore and A’s would magically appear on your paper/exams. But that’s not how it’s going to be anymore. Even the smartest, most talented students reach a point at which they have to actually work hard to do well. You’ve reached that point.”Report

          • Avatar Kazzy says:

            There is probably something to be said for a bit of a disconnect between many students’ high school experiences and their college ones. Ideally, there would be a more gradual approach to that point instead of the sudden jump. It’s likely that some high schools (likely independent prep schools with lots of AP offerings and the like) do better than others, but that is far from universal. Which doesn’t excuse the attitude of the students, but at least explains it.

            If you don’t mind sharing, Chris, what do you teach?Report

      • Avatar James Hanley says:

        I had a student once whose paper began something like “X has been a controversial issue for centuries, since at least WWII.” It didn’t get any better from there. Upset at the (generous) C- I gave her, she claimed that the profs in her major always praised her writing. What’s your major, I asked. Social Work, she replied. Sad to say, I wasn’t surprised.

        And just today I had a student email me with “Why did I get a 0 on my paper. What’s up with that?” Well, you failed to meet even one–not even one–of the requirements of the paper. Not even one! And of the two references (out of a minimum of ten that he obviously didn’t meet), one was and the other was But not only that, I had already written on his paper: “0. This paper fails to meet even one of the required elements.” And he still had to ask why.

        Intro courses–it’s always the intro courses.Report

        • Avatar Kazzy says:

          Oi vei, what did you do with the education students? You had to try to NOT get an A in those classes.Report

          • Avatar James Hanley says:

            True story time:

            My sister earned an MA in linguistics, with an emphasis on teaching ESL. Hated teaching, loved the college environment, so went to work on an MA in Library Science, which she found laughably easy after her linguistics degree. One of her fellow MA students at one point said, “Jeez, this is so much harder than my Master’s in Education.”

            I get a lot of education majors. All Elementary Ed and all middle/high school Social Studies Ed majors come through American Gov’t, at the least. I get some of my best and worst students out of it. Some are just the absolute dregs. Elementary Ed attracts too many people who love kids, but have no other discernible qualities for being in education. Social Studies attracts a lot of dumb jocks who want to be coaches, and think the Integrated Science or Math Education degrees are too hard, and don’t have the musical talent to do the Music Ed degree. So they sit in the back of my class, don’t take notes, fall asleep, fails tests, and think they’ll someday be teaching high school civics and coaching football. They get weeded out of the program pretty quickly.

            But some of my best students are education majors. I had a guy graduate last year who’ll be a cross country coach and one of the best teachers your kids could ever had. I was sorely disappointed he didn’t get a job in our district so my kids could learn from him. And my top American Gov’t student this term is an Art Education major of all things. I’m pretty sure she really doesn’t care about the subject matter, but damned if she’s going to let that stop her from getting an A.Report

            • Avatar Morat20 says:

              Heh, my wife’s an education major (double Master’s now, on her own dime. Despite her relatively young age, she’s the one kicking an entire high school English department into shape and revamping a dated curriculm. She’s very good at it, and I like to brag about her!) and she talks about the people she graduated with, and the teacher’s she’s worked with.

              I’m afraid the wide range of education majors was something I encountered in computer science as well — there’s strangely a lot of people who didn’t seem to get as much out of it as other’s, and whose sheer ability to pass the class was puzzling, and whom I dearly hope never, ever, actually wrote code for anything important.

              The real problem with education is that it’s really several things rolled up into one: First, the methods to connect to kids of all stripes, regardless of their problems, and assess not just how much they learn but HOW they learn — and match your lessons to it. For 150 kids. So there’s psycholgy, mental development, assessment measures — a ton of stuff that’s pretty hard to do.

              Then you’ve got subject mastery — to know the subject well enough to teach it.

              Then the combination — breaking down your mastery of the material into methods that the kids can actually digest.

              Failures of this are pretty bad — like New Math teaching kids concepts their brains were simply not wired to process.

              In college, at least half my professors were GREAT at their subject but utter pants at conveying it. I was an adult, I could work around it, force clarification, and basically take up the slack in their educational methods and get the knowledge anyways.

              I couldn’t have done that at 16.Report

            • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

              I think Education suffers because it is perceived to lead to a job and be practical. So less students go into education because they are intellectually interested in education. Which means a higher than average number of unengaged students.

              I think we should do away with majors pretty much entirely: three years of core classes that the university chooses, one year of specialty classes with very few choices.

              Let other schools handle the education to become a credentialled nurse, teacher, engineer, or whatever. A bachelors degree should mean you are educated. Period.

              Once you are educated, you can go get your specialized training in nursing or engineering or teaching or social work or marketing or business.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                I think Education suffers because it is perceived to lead to a job and be practical. So less students go into education because they are intellectually interested in education.

                I suspect business profs get far more than their share of this, too. Which is a shame, since the intellectual study of business is really very interesting.Report

              • Avatar Michael Drew says:

                Is there really share of students seeking a school experience & record that “lead to a job and [are] practical” that it is unfair for business schools to have to shoulder? Am I misunderstanding what B-schools pretty much universally purport to offer students and, by extension, their universities (as a selling point to students)? This is not to crap on the idea of the intellectual study of business, but if 99.8% of students who choose business school do so out of an interest in the reason mentioned above rather than to engage in study of business as an intellectual pursuit.

                If B-schools ought to expect a 99.8% rate of students interested in attending for employability and other practical reasons, which I’d think they should, I’d say that engineering schools ought to expect a rate of 98.9% and nursing schools 98.7%. Or maybe nursing equal to or higher than business. But the point is that it seems to me there’s barely a proportion of students who will be interested in attending for these practical reasons that it’s unfair to ask business schools to be prepared for and expect to receive – and to see this as their function at the university. And I think business schools are largely on board with that.

                But I could be wrong. Am I fundamentally misunderstanding how business schools tend to define their mission?Report

              • Avatar Michael Drew says:

                last sentence of first graf there was meant to finish – if that percentage (a hypothetical 99.8%) of students who choose business school do so for the reason mentioned, is that an unfair thing for the school to be expected to manage – something outside the scope of the function that the university relies on its business school to perform, and/or that the school doesn’t willingly accept as its role?Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                I wouldn’t confuse business schools with the individual professors at those business schools.Report

              • Avatar Michael Drew says:

                I’m still not catching your meaning. Who’s supposed to bear the burden, then?Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:


                I think Hanley means that individual professors in business schools have cool acaedmic interests and research and want to teach them to the students.

                But the students who take business classes and the business major are -on average- less engaged in the ideas and research that the profs want to talk about and more engaged in just getting out of school and getting a job.

                You can’t quite say the same thing, to the same degree, about engineering, I’d imagine. People know engineering is practical, but there’s an idea that we all become aware at some point, sort of out there, that engineering requires a techie-calling, a sensus-Star-Trekinatus, a desire to learn tech stuff even before school. (At least to some degree.)

                Business schools, and the admin, and parents are responsible for this problem. I can’t tell you how many people I remember telling me that their mom would be mad if they got a history degree instead of business degree, because a business degree will get you a job in “business.”

                The only way to solve the problem would be to change the name and for business professors to play down the practicality of the degree. They could call it a “Operational Strategy Analysis” or “Decision Theory” or something really abstract and weird. And the profs should be clear that the degree won’t make you a “better business man” any more than an ethics class will make you a better person. It’s all theory and its hard and its good for you, but it is no more likely to get you a job than history or philosophy or biology.

                But unfortunately, IMO, there’s a perverse incentive to compete for majors now, and business schools do well at this competition just because of their misnomer of a name and a myth amongst parents.

                Like I say, kill all the majors. That perverse incentive to compete for majors is a partial cause of grade inflation and the softening of the curriculum, too. IMO.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                This is a good comment, Shazbot, there’s a lot of meat there.

                But the students who take business classes and the business major are -on average- less engaged in the ideas and research that the profs want to talk about and more engaged in just getting out of school and getting a job.

                The distinction, I think, is that the engineer looks at the higher ed process as, “I need to learn this stuff in order to be able to do my job” and the business major looks at the higher ed process as, “I need this piece of paper to make an extra $15k/year and be on management track”. I’ve taken a couple of business classes at Drucker and more than one faculty member has mentioned that the main difference between the “returning to school a decade in” and the “continuing from undergrad before going to work” crowd is that the returnees like the Organizational Behavior class a lot more than Financial Accounting, and the “straight from undergrad” folks pay little or no attention in Organizational Behavior and think that Corporate Finance or Marketing Management is the key class.

                Like I say, kill all the majors. That perverse incentive to compete for majors is a partial cause of grade inflation and the softening of the curriculum, too. IMO.

                There’s more than a little utility in the major system. You rightly point out the drawback of it, here, but I’m not sure that killing the major system is the right solution. Having a better major system is probably a much better idea. Some schools do this (CGU does; about a third of the students build their own major)Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:


                Shaz is on target. I’d just add this:

                Keep in mind that academics mostly take whatever jobs are offered them, because supply is greater than demand (although that’s less true in business than in most fields). So the person who’s intellectually interested in business takes the one job that’s offered out of the dozens they applied for. There’s rarely a chance to say, “that school’s got too much focus on just getting the piece of paper for the extra 15k/year, so I’ll take the offer from this school that really focuses on teaching students to think deeply about what it all means.” So the prof does the best she can to teach her preferred way, but the school’s still selling the “get our piece of paper” as its sales mechanism. And the prof understands, despite the frustration, that without that particular sales pitch the school might not have enough business students to keep her in a job.

                Of course the big scam is that you need a business degree to get a job in business. I have a friend who runs his own company helping multi-nationals market to Latin America. He was an Economics/Political Science major who made sure to learn Spanish fluently and learn as much as he could about Latin America. Another friend of mine was a History major with a religion minor, and worked his way to being a high level executive in the shipping industry, working out of Seoul, before chucking it to become an academic.

                My cynical take is that the only students who really need a business major to succeed in business are those who aren’t really sharp enough to be really succeed in business anyway. (Which is not to say that applies to all business majors; many of them would succeed just as well if they studied philosophy instead of marketing.)Report

            • Avatar Kazzy says:

              “Elementary Ed attracts too many people who love kids, but have no other discernible qualities for being in education.”

              This. This this this.Report

              • Avatar Tom Van Dyke says:

                You have this disarming aptitude for honesty, Kazzy, tho I never know if it’s a confession of your own limits or a condemnation of the flaws and limits of others.

                So, your positive response to

                “Elementary Ed attracts too many people who love kids, but have no other discernible qualities for being in education.”

                leaves me puzzled. As you know, I’m very skeptical of the “diversity” bleat, so i hope you’re not on the propaganda side of “educating” kindergartners.

                If all you offer to your kindergarten students is “love,” a drink of human kindness, I think that’ll do just fine. There’s plenty of time later to turn them into Democrats, eh?Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                I’m a little confused by this.

                I responded to James’s statement their positively because it is true. Ask early childhood or elementary educators how they got into teaching and many will say, “Because I love kids!” Which is great. Teachers SHOULD love kids. Or at least like them. Ask those who said this their thoughts on Piaget or Vygotsky or whether they favor whole language over phonics or what they think of the “new math” or if they are members of NCTM or NCTE and far too many (not a majority or even a plurality, but too many) will look at you like you have three heads.

                To the rest of it, I’m even more confused. What is “propaganda” about educating young children (I teach PreK, not K, for the record). I offer far more than “love”. I’m actually noted as being the least “cuddley” PreK teacher ever. I have no interest in turning them into Democrats. My goal is to start them on a path toward being thinking, intellectually curious adults with a strong moral and ethical grounding that they use to improve the world.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

                I have no interest in turning them into Democrats. My goal is to start them on a path toward being thinking, intellectually curious adults with a strong moral and ethical grounding that they use to improve the world.

                Make up your mind.Report

              • Avatar Morat20 says:

                Wife’s a huge fan of Vygotsky. She’s also likely to be Department Head next year, despite her relatively young age (she’s got a decade’s experience teaching, but has been a driving force behind revamping curriculm and basically forcing improvements in her subject area in two districts now — she’s also one of the few certified trainers for several nifty little writing methods the district has access to).

                Teachers seem to break down into several groups:

                1) Excellent on education theory, excellent handling children. (rarest).
                2) Excellent on education theory, crap at handling children. (Good for running departments, assessing teachers, bad at actually teaching. Basically, good coach/administrator/leader, but please don’t put him/her with kids)
                3) Excellent with kids, crap at theory. (most common). These are actually decent teachers, assuming someone from group 1 or 2 is handling their curriculm for them. Being good with kids means they tend to engage the kids, notice if the kids aren’t grasping something, and in general just need some help to make sure they’re on-track.
                4) Crap with kids, crap with theory. (least common). These are people who tend to think “teaching” is easy (See the famous Wall Street ranter on that) and tend to burn out about instantly.

                There’s a subset — #3s who burn out, stop updating their curriculm, or otherwise turn into dinosaurs. Generally good with kids, but don’t even bother trying anything but teaching exactly what they’ve taught for 30 years, as they’ve always taught it.

                But all of that? It’s true for my job — software engineer. I’ve met excellent designers that couldn’t code, excellent coders who can’t design (you have to hand hold them through the large scale stuff), and people who I am shocked are allowed near computers.

                I see them at work, I saw them when I was getting my degrees — I think the real difference is a lot of people think “Oh, teaching kids is easy! I got my high school diploma, so I know all I need to know!” or “It’s just kids! How hard can it be?” and so get drawn into it. Most people don’t think STEM stuff is “Easy” so you get fewer idiots along that particular line.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                You also have the union protecting all four groups. And, sometimes, antagonizing the stronger groups under the guise of protecting the weaker ones.

                I’m huge into Vygotsky. And good on your wife. Not necessarily because she might also be a constructivist, but because she is working to make positive change in her school. Kudos.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                I’m huge into Vygotsky. And good on your wife.

                Easy there, Kaz, it’s not that kind of blog.

                For the education theory ignorant, whose Vygotsky?Report

              • Avatar Glyph says:

                whose Vygotsky?

                Not mine, I left mine at the bus stop. 😉Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:


              • Avatar Morat20 says:

                Nah, we live in Texas. The Teacher’s Union here is non-existant. I mean it exists, but I have no idea what for.

                We don’t have tenure (there’s a few dinosaurs roaming Texas with permanent contracts, but neither of us know anyone who has one — and that’s with contacts who would know in four sizeable school districts — and nobody offers them anymore), the pension fund is regularly raided by the Leg (which sucks doubly because no SS for teachers and because of ‘double dip’ laws, my wife can’t even claim MY benefits if I kick the bucket), and our state school board is run by a Creationist Dentist and has lately decided to attack the curriculm for including “critical thinking”.

                It’s a wonder anyone gets through Texas public schools with a decent education, and it’s certainly not due to anyone but the local teachers. The State does everything it can to sandbag it.Report

              • Avatar Chris says:

                James, a Russian psychologist from the 20s, whose focus was on development (which would explain his popularity among educators). Thought and Language really is a must read. It’s a unique psychological perspective that I’ve always thought might provide some productive inspiration for cognitive psychologists.

                Appropriate for this discussion, from that book:

                Consciousness is reflected in the world as the sun in a small drop of water. The word relates to consciousness as a small world to a large one, as a living cell to the organism, as an atom to the universe. Indeed, it is a small world of consciousness. The meaningful word is a microcosm of human consciousness.

                If you went to cognitive psychologist programs at a bunch of universities and polled all of the people in the program (faculty and grad students), you’d always find at least one really big Vygotsky fan. When I was in grad school, there was a guy who brought up Vygotsky in every discussion of cognitive development. Every discussion. It was really, really annoying, but it had the desired effect of making me read Thought and Language, so there’s that.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                Vygotsky’s major contribution to early childhood is his work on social-constructivism. The basic theory is that children (and perhaps people in general) learn best when they construct meaning through first-hand experienced and the influence of other, slightly more sophisticated peers. The basic idea that children can learn from each other (those within their Zone of Proximal Development, or ZPD, which is the range incorporating that which they can achieve with support) is borne out of this.

                Chris can probably give an even better definition but that is the sort of layman’s way of thinking about it, if we view “early childhood teachers” as the layman of developmental psychology.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:


                I’ll let you explain it to me, because the kind of language Chris quoted fundamentally works against my type of thought processes. I like Machiavellian writing: “There are two types of X, X1 and X2. There are two types of X2; X2a and X2b. There are two types of X2b…” That’s how my brain works. All that consciousness is like a drop of water business…{shudder}.Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                We don’t have tenure (there’s a few dinosaurs roaming Texas with permanent contracts, but neither of us know anyone who has one — and that’s with contacts who would know in four sizeable school districts — and nobody offers them anymore), the pension fund is regularly raided by the Leg (which sucks doubly because no SS for teachers and because of ‘double dip’ laws, my wife can’t even claim MY benefits if I kick the bucket), and our state school board is run by a Creationist Dentist and has lately decided to attack the curriculm for including “critical thinking”.

                And in threads on my guest article about the texas secessionists’ love-letter to the slaveholding South, I was told responses like this are “unhelpful.”

                To me, it looks like a needed dose of reality. Creationists trying to insert their religious views into public school? Shouldn’t be tolerated. Hell, shouldn’t be even treated with a modicum of respect, to attempt to push their religious fol-de-rol onto others with government power is explicitly unconstitutional.

                I get that telling them that, in that form, may cause them to backlash. But – so what? I don’t see how sugarcoating the response won’t manage to come off as leaving the door open for them, and the only appropriate and responsible response to groups like the Texas Bible Humping Creationists is to slam the door in their faces and tell them to grow up.

                I’m more likely to be conciliatory to the JW’s or the Mormons. Them, you can at least have a conversation with and agree to disagree, shake hands and admit you’re all nice people deep down. Creationists? You don’t start agreeing with them and next thing you know you’re spawn of satan.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                In a nutshell, Vygotsky either developed or championed the idea that children can learn from each other and that they can construct meaning through firsthand experiences. It is a departure from the stage theory favored by Piaget (though V and P are not the ideological opposites they are often framed as) because it explored the notion that development could be accelerated, for lack of a better word.

                One of his ideas is that of the Zone of Proximal Development. This is a group of peers who are beyond you but only slightly so; with support, you can achieve what they do. It’s sort of like the way a child with older-but-not-much-older siblings might seem to mature faster; he is learning from his siblings and being stretched in a way he might not otherwise. There are developmental limitations to this (this is where I feel P and V come together); you can’t put a toddler in an advanced calculus and expect growth. But put a child who is building simple structures in the same block area as one building them slightly more complex, and the former will make more and quicker gains, possibly even improving upon what he’s learned and flipping the process.

                As for constructing meaning, it has to do with experiential learning. Children build an understanding of something through smaller blocks of information that they “discover” on their own. I had a professor sneakily put us through this in grad school:

                He gave us two triangles drawn on chart paper. One was a right triangle and the other was the kind where all the angles and sides are different (I forget the name). We had to determine the relationship of the areas. For the right triangle, you could actually count the squares covered by the shape. But you couldn’t do this accurately with the other. I knew intuitively they were the same because I could see that they had the same base and height. but I couldn’t prove it. I couldn’t simply use the algorithm I had learned. I went through a pretty complex process of manipulating the various triangles until I could prove demonstrably that they were the same area. In doing so, I essentially developed a proof for the algorithm I had wanted to use all along. I now have a far more complete understanding of this algorithm, as a result of going through this process, interacting directly with the triangles, and actually taking small bits of knowledge and putting them together for a broader understanding.

                Obviously, I didn’t invent A = .5*B*H. But I understand it SO much better because I “constructed” meaning.

                So, yea, that is Vyogtsky, in a sloppy nutshell.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Thanks, Kazzy. Apart from the idea that children are capable of learning, that all makes sense to me.

                No, seriously, that does make sense to me. The two assignments I have my American Gov’t students do that really engage them–although often to their frustration–are an online redistricting simulation and an on-line federal budgeting simulation. Actually doing those things, instead of just hearing or reading about them, sparks more understanding. They don’t always seem to get exactly the lesson I want them to get, but the overwhelming majority really do get some meaning out of it.

                I’ve been dreaming about an introduction to politics class that’s 75% or more simulations.Report

              • Avatar Annelid Gustator says:

                James that sounds very interesting! Are these simulations widely available.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Yes, both simulations are free (the organizations behind them want them to be widely played, to promote political understanding).

                The redistricting/gerrymandering assignment is at (Start with the fundamentals, just to get the hang of how it works, then try the Voting Rights Act mission–most people find it pretty damned hard.)

                The budgeting simulation, which unfortunately is a bit out of date now (but still worthwhile) is at

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Yeah, I guess you’d know that first hand (and with great frustration), wouldn’t you, K-dog?

                To put it in white male graduate student speak, loving kids is a necessary condition, but far from a sufficient one.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                It’d be like saying, “Well, I like lawyers. And the law. And I’ve watched, like, every episode of ‘Law & Order’. Does that mean I get to be a lawyer?”

                Education is a skill, a craft, an art and a science (and I have a BS and MA to prove it… or a BS and MA… whichever). There is knowledge and practice required. Just like most other professions. And while the infamous DA Ridgely made no bones of insisting that education students (PARTICULARLY grad students) took themselves too seriously, which we sometimes do/did, the fact of the matter is that loving kids* ain’t enough.

                *And most of these folks don’t even love kids. They think kids are cute when they are someone else’s kids and they were with them in small doses and they don’t have to actually bear any responsibility or authority over them.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Loving other people’s kids…is that even possible?Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                Well, they see other people’s kids as playthings they can drop whenever the fun or novelty wears off.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                Michael Jackson loved other people’s kids.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Oh, Shaz, too soon, too soon. 😉Report

              • Avatar Jeff No-Last-Name says:

                I love my nieces and nephews. No diapering, for one thing!Report

              • Avatar Jeff No-Last-Name says:

                “Well, they see other people’s kids as playthings they can drop whenever the fun or novelty wears off.”

                [Puzzled] You mean they’re NOT????Report

            • Avatar Kim says:

              University of Pittsburgh’s Library Sciences ain’t no joke. 😉 (their CS dept on the other hand…)Report

          • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

            The students who didn’t begin to understand the construction of the real numbers were in the “Math for high school teachers” program.Report

            • Avatar Stillwater says:

              That’s a bit extreme, isn’t it?Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

                It’s a fact. Berkeley had three math degrees: theoretical, applied, and secondary school teacher training, and the class was required only for the last of those.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                There was a “Calculus for Business Majors” (actual title) and Calculus for the Pre Med Student (not actual title, but that’s who attended) at LMU while I was there.

                The professors played Russian Roulette to see who had to teach them.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

                At Berkeley, there was extra money for teaching undergraduate courses. It was pretty obvious which professors were in it just for that. There was one who was well-known for putting in zero effort, not even working out which problems he was going to do on the board in advance. The TAs would sit in the back of the room and make fun of his missteps.

                I recall his doing an integral, finding the weight of a sphere whose density was “inversely proportional to the distance from its center”. They let him get almost to the end before calling out “Gets kind of heavy in the middle there, doesn’t it?”Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:


              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                The professors played Russian Roulette to see who had to teach them.

                So they had zombie teachers? Cool.Report

              • Avatar Ryan Noonan says:

                At Michigan, I took Geometry for Teachers (literally the name of the class). The prof decided he wanted to be a hard-ass, so the topic was proving Euclidean geometry. He gave us our five postulates and sent us on our way. Then he took one of the five away and asked us what happened. This was one of the hardest classes I had in college. I have no idea what other people’s grades looked like.Report

          • Avatar Stillwater says:

            Oi vei, what did you do with the education students? You had to try to NOT get an A in those classes.

            I was friends with some education students when I was finishing up undergrad during finals we all met at the UMC to study together. After a while, I’d pegged out on my own work and started studying with them as a break. There method of review was for one student to ask a multiple choice question which we’d have to answer. I got all of them right. Even told the others why their answer was wrong. It was a shock to them.

            I chalked it up to common sense. And knowing how to take a pretty simply multiple choice test. That was definitely one thing College! taught me.Report

            • Avatar Kazzy says:

              I’m not state-certified (I teach in an independent school that doesn’t require it), but I took a couple of the tests years back (I believe I was either fresh out of college or one year out). Each test took four hours; or, rather, you were given four hours for each test. There was an hour break in between. I wrapped up the first one in an hour, saw no one else getting up (I hate to be the first done), went back through the test again (something I never do), and finally handed it in after about 80 minutes. I then went to the mall for 3 hours, came back, and did the same with the second one. Between the two, an older gentleman asked what I thought.

              “Not so bad.”
              “Oh man, these are killer. This is my third time taking it. I really hope I pass. I almost didn’t finish.”

              I don’t mean to sound like a douche but a blind monkey could pass those things*. That this man struggled, multiple times, and might still end up in the classroom scares me.

              But, overall, education classes are stupidly simple. Which is not to say that all education students are dumb (I was one… twice!). Just that I think the overall caliber of student is lacking for a host of reasons.

              * Except the questions that are clearly geared towards serving state curricula and not actually assessing teaching quality… like the one that says:
              Johnny does poor on a standardized test. What do we know about Johnny?
              A) Johnny is a poor test taker
              B) Very little because one test on one day is one data point.
              C) Johnny is ill prepared to advance.

              I’d rank the answers, from most to least correct, in this order: B, A, C

              The correct answer? C. Of course.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                I took the California Basic Educational Skills Test in 1993, when I was considering staying in school for a year to get credentialed to teach high school.

                I’ve always been really good at standardized tests (one of the reasons I find them a flawed measurement, actually), so I wasn’t surprised that I found it pretty easy.

                Six months or so later, IIRC, there was a big controversy about the CBEST having correlations between pass/fail rates and ethnicity, and a number of testing experts were brought into the public reporting venue to talk about how the test has a bias towards white middle class test-takers.

                I remember thinking to myself: “Dude, if you can’t pass that exam with or without the bias, you shouldn’t be teaching. That’s really basic stuff, on there.”

                I don’t know if my opinion would change if I took the test again today and my recollection of it is dated and thus not what I would call great evidence, so I have no idea if my impression was biased-enabled or not.

                But Jesus, that test was easy. Easier than my entrance exam to college. Easier than the SAT.

                Now, if you’re teaching primary, you probably don’t need to know Algebra in and out, but on the other hand if you’re laying the groundwork for students to eventually learn math, you probably should be able to pass a 10th grade equivalency test. Really.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

                I saw some sample problems in the newspaper and came to the same conclusion.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                When we were having trouble with our Social Studies Teacher Ed majors passing the Michigan qualifying exam, several of us faculty were asked to take it. Anyone who’s paid a bit of attention to the world and has a modicum of reading comprehension could pass it. It was mostly general knowledge, and a lot of “read these paragraphs and answer the following questions” type things. I asked some of my recent graduates who I knew were good students what they thought of it and they all laughed–literally–at how easy it was. I knew one student who hadn’t done the Social Studies degree but took it on a lark and passed easily. Part of the problem is that so many students take it that they have a very high bar for the pass rate, to keep down the number of qualified social studies teachers, but still, I’d wager 90% of the readership here could take and pass it right now without trouble.

                So we (not me, but my school) did some research on who passed and who failed, and lo, and behold, there was a clear demarcation based on ACT scores and GPA. So we upped the minimum ACT and GPA required to enter the program, and the minimum GPA required to stay in the program. No shocker, but it really is that simple.Report

              • Avatar Shazbot5 says:

                D: The existence of Johnny and Michelle Rhee threatens your salary.Report

      • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

        After I finish, presuming I actually become a Real Academic (TM) I’m sorely tempted to put at the top of every syllabus a paragraph detailing exactly how little I care about the consequences of your grade.Report

        • Avatar James Hanley says:

          From my American Gov’t syllabus:

          Tips for Success in this Course:
          [points 1 -6]
          7. If you do not do these things, expect to do poorly—it’s your choice, and your instructor won’t lose any sleep over assigning an appropriately poor grade.

          I’ve also at times put, “If you don’t care enough to put in the effort, don’t come to me pretending you care about the grade.”

          I’m pretty sure my evaluations are readily distinguishable by whether good students or poor students wrote them.

          • Avatar Stillwater says:

            That’s awesome. I wish to heck I’d’ve thought of that when I was grading papers. There’s nothing more difficult, and pain staking, and soul wrenching, than seeing these bright kids write atrociously. And more rewarding when they do well! But that inclusion really absolves you of any personal responsibility for bad performance. I like it.Report

            • Avatar James Hanley says:

              Of course none of those students actually read that far into the syllabus.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                I’m going to spend the first 10 minutes of my first class chewing the fat with the students. After that 10 minutes, I’ll know whether or not they need to be force-fed the syllabus.

                If I think they need to be force-fed the syllabus, I will call on students, one at a time, to read sections of the syllabus. At the end of that reading, if there is still someone that I think hasn’t gotten it, I’ll mention that if you really, really think that you’re going to sail through this class, you should either fill out this “Drop” form right now and save your classmates the time of having you drag down the discussions, or come see me during my first office hours.

                Somewhere in that syllabus, under the assignments section there will be written:

                “I expect that some students may have difficulties completing some of the assignments. I expect that some students may have difficulties attending every class session. I will grant extensions to certain assignments, and waive attendance considerations for the class participation section of your grade… provided you do me the courtesy of appearing in person, in my office, during posted office hours prior to the due date of the assignment to discuss your inability to meet the deadline or appear in class. If you do not arrange this prior to the incident in question, I will not take into account your absence or tardy delivery of assignments for any reason, barring death or hospitalization.”Report

              • Avatar Maribou says:

                I understand your motives, because the stories I hear about deadbeat students from my professor friends can be pretty appalling.

                However, if my profs this semester had taken the approach you describe, during the original onset of my Real Live Family Crisis that Still Utterly Sucks (but has yet to involve death or hospitalization), I probably would’ve failed or dropped both classes early on. As it is, I’m running high A’s in both of them and my profs are visibly enthused about my work. And if you say (or would say, if you had me as a student), “Well, I didn’t mean people LIKE YOU,” I would ask who is more likely to take such statements in the syllabus seriously: the folks whose crap attitudes you are trying to fix, who will just feel encouraged to lie about dead grandmothers – or the folks who are going through hell, but would actually benefit from some leeway, pull their shit together, and get back to doing good work?

                I think it’s indicative of several different kinds of fortune to assume that death and hospitalization are the only emergencies that ruin a person’s life to an extent that prevents pre-arranging accommodations. Expecting that if your situation really *is* equally awful, the prof will give you a fair hearing about it instead of failing you, and thus that there is any point to even bringing it up instead of just failing the assignment, the class, or dropping out of school altogether, also seems, in my experience, to be indicative of a relatively comfortable lot in life.

                At least, I know I’m sure as hell braver about it now than I was when I made less than $7K a year and hadn’t shaken off the worst effects of my fucked-up childhood yet. However, I still had to point out to myself, this time around, that the worst thing that could happen was that I would get kicked out of library school and actually HAVE FREE TIME, and that I *was* way more safe and comfortable than my hindbrain thought I was, before I could even try to make myself speak to my professors.

                Apologies if you were just kidding around, but I do think professors who take this strict approach don’t often think about who they’re keeping out of their classrooms by adopting it. A related, though obviously more problematic note: we had a prof at my workplace once who taught a course on class issues in feminism. We operate on a one-course-at-a-time basis here; she scheduled her class to take up 8-10 hours of *in-class* time a day, different times on different days, and she refused to commit to a schedule in advance. Which meant that if a workstudy student wanted to take her class, they pretty much had to give up their income for a block to do it. Soooo – workstudy students could almost never afford to take her course. On class issues in feminism. She didn’t see a problem with that.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                Ouch… That’s a fair criticism, and cutting in the way fair criticism ought to be. I was only half-kidding, so I deserve the reprimand.

                Someone who is having that rough of a time for outside reasons on the first day of class, hm. Certainly I’d rather have someone who wants to learn and will pull their stuff together stick around. There’s two conditions there. The first is that I don’t want a student who is going through a rough time to be under any illusions about their ability to stick around and come through at the end. If they can do it, awesome. If they can’t, though, it’d be pretty terrible to not be honest about what they’d have to deliver to show they’d learned the material. Some of those 101 courses, you have to show you’ve crammed the data in your head. If you can’t do that, I can’t (in good conscience) pass you.

                If you’re having that rough of a time, you’re going to have to share some of it. Not the details of whatever the trouble is, mind you, but the fact that you’re going to have a tough time participating according to the standard on the syllabus. If I (as the hypothetical faculty member) don’t know that you’re going through something like that, I can’t take it into consideration when granting you leeway. I can imagine certain classes (say, networking) being the sort where you say, “This isn’t something you can coast through, if you can’t do the work – even if you have good reason not to do the work – you’re going to fail. If you’re having that hard of a time this term, you probably should consider withdrawing and taking a puff course, or if that’s not possible for registration reasons, we’ll have to talk about how you can make it up.”

                I’m not a scary guy. If anything, the reason why I’d hammer home a syllabus would be because the students might think I’m too affable and goofy to fail somebody.

                But I’ll have to rethink how to write that up. Thanks, Maribou, for the reality check.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                That anecdote at the end is starkly and darkly hilarious and sad.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                We operate on a one-course-at-a-time basis here; she scheduled her class to take up 8-10 hours of *in-class* time a day,

                CC? That’s still pretty weird, even for CC.Report

              • Avatar Maribou says:

                Yes and no? It’s the only time that kind of thing has ever been egregious enough to make me spit nails… but not that far outside the norm (science classes don’t require people to be in the class, but they have similar lab requirements – and her kids weren’t being *lectured at* that whole time, or anything). Also, while it wasn’t related to this particular prof (and for all I know she had some DFW-style rationale for her approach), certain things shifted pretty heavily when we went to a 70-rather-than-55-percent-full-pay ratio a few years back. Suddenly there was a much stronger norm that “everyone” could and should be as flexible and spontaneous as someone who wasn’t working and didn’t have other major commitments. It’s started shifting back again now that the full-play ratio is shifting back again.

                Higher ed is weird, elite higher ed is weirder, and there are ways in which the block plan magnifies that weird.Report

              • Avatar Maribou says:

                Yes and no? It’s the only time that kind of thing has ever been egregious enough to make me spit nails… but not that far outside the norm (science classes don’t require people to be in the class, but they have similar lab requirements – and her kids weren’t being *lectured at* that whole time, or anything). Also, while it wasn’t related to this particular prof (and for all I know she had some DFW-style rationale for her approach), certain things shifted pretty heavily when we went to a 70-rather-than-55-percent-full-pay ratio a few years back. Suddenly there was a much stronger norm that “everyone” could and should be as flexible and spontaneous as someone who wasn’t working and didn’t have other major commitments. It’s started shifting back again now that the full-pay ratio is shifting back again.

                Higher ed is weird, elite higher ed is weirder, and there are ways in which the block plan magnifies that weird.Report

              • Avatar Maribou says:

                (whoops, meant to edit and ended up doubleposting… *makes face* what I get for posting before I’m awake)Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                she scheduled her class to take up 8-10 hours of *in-class* time a day, different times on different days, and she refused to commit to a schedule in advance.

                WTF!? And the school allowed that? In addition to the sheer perversity of doing that in an issues in feminism class, that’s just flat out professional misconduct.Report

              • Avatar Maribou says:

                It’s not common practice, but it’s not the only time I’ve seen it. It’s actually not THAT unreasonable on the block plan – part of the deal is that your class = your life, spontaneity is one of the key advantages, and there are plenty of classes (on-campus and off) that have a similarly demanding time requirement (eg, spending weeks in the field). Even committed-to-in-advance schedules often change. People know what they are getting into when they come here, and the 30-40 percent of them who aren’t full-pay find ways to afford things (some of which are school-supported – eg, my students can take off work for class WHENEVER, as long as they communicate, without penalties). Or, they focus on the benefits of what they CAN afford. I mean, my workstudy kids have a pretty great deal, overall, and they know it!

                I’d really like to see us move eventually to a need-blind, grant-rather-than-loan, workstudy-is-purely-voluntary model, because I think that’s the only real way to do the block plan right for EVERYBODY who comes here – but it’s going to be a long long long while before the funds and political capital exist for something that audacious, if they ever do.

                Just, in this particular class, it seemed really stupid. If she felt the need to teach THAT class that way, she should’ve found a way for poorer students to get extra funding for the block. At a bare minimum.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Could I trouble you to explain the block plan a little bit more for me? I’m not familiar with it, so I’m having a hard time grasping how this works. But I’m interested.Report

              • Avatar Maribou says:

                You take one class. For a bit less than a month. Then you have a few days more than a normal weekend to recover. And you take another class. For less than a month. Rinse, repeat.

                Some classes take two blocks, and thus last two months (and count double). Some classes (eg ongoing language, craft skills, or music performance lessons) are turned into semester-long traditional classes (called “adjuncts”), worth much less than a whole-block class, and added to your schedule in the afternoons where practicable (ie if you don’t have labs or primary classes that mess up that plan, or if the adjunct profs – who, uh, aren’t generally adjuncts *themselves*, but regular professors or staff instructors – can themselves be sufficiently flexible). However, students are *strongly* discouraged from taking more than one adjunct at once, and many never take one.

                It is a mad, wild system, with many advantages and disadvantages. One of the chief advantages is exactly the sort of abandonment-to-a-subject that I’m complaining about in this context – students can go to Rome, or Chile, or Chicago for a block, for example, with far less consequence than a semester abroad would have (particularly since there is scholarship support for those sorts of expeditions). Or they can spend 3/4 of a geology block up a mountain somewhere, with overnight stays, instead of having to be back in time for their other classes.

                But in a situation where *some* of our students can do all these things without worrying about costs, and *some* of them have to balance a huge number of costs, it can be messier and more difficult for the latter group than my fierce affection for them would like. Even as I acknowledge the pragmatics involved, and that said latter group is still having an amazing experience, one they acknowledge is worth it.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Thanks, now I understand. I have heard of that. It’s pretty rare, but there are some good schools that do it, I think. I can see real educational advantages to it. I’d be interested in experimenting with it as a teacher, but that’ll probably never happen.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:


                I understand where you’re coming from, but you really do have to be careful with that kind of thing. The reasons students miss class or assignments are amazingly varied, and that approach is only appropriate to some of them. For example, I had some student athletes (Frosh) who didn’t grasp the importance of actually coming to class, so I’d get excuses like “I sprained my ankle in practice yesterday,” or “I have a PT appointment in the trainer’s office.” No, and no. Hobble your ass to class, and tell the PT you can’t schedule an appointment during class time, and yes I am going to have a talk with your coach (advantages of a small college).

                But then there’s the student whose parents are divorcing, or the girl who got raped at a party and was struggling to deal with it, or the guy who was suffering from a recurring anal cyst (and by god what 19 year old wants to tell their prof that?), or the student who is suffering from serious depression. I’ve been on a committee that reviews students who have failed out and hears their appeals for reinstatement, and I’ve heard all these stories.

                The truth is, we usually just don’t know what’s going on in a kid’s life. Some need a hard kick in the ass to wake them up (like my student, not a dumb guy, who took three tries to actually complete a senior project). For others that’s the worst medicine possible.

                I don’t know how well it works, but I take a much softer approach to attendance. I tell them it’s required, but it’s ultimately their choice, but if they have some significant issue that’s going to cause them to miss a lot, to keep in touch with me. Ultimately, if they’re going to fail to succeed they’re going to fail to succeed, and there’s only so much we can do about it.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                If the class is a seminar, you need to be there because it’s not a “I’m Lecturing the Voice of the Gods to You” learning paradigm. You need to participate.

                If the class isn’t a seminar, I’m taking the approach of my psych 101 teacher in college: if you don’t learn from lectures, don’t come to the lectures. It’s most important to me that you show you know the material, not that you get it from the font of awesomeness that is my brain.

                I suspect that I’ll care less about attendance than most faculty.Report

    • Avatar Stillwater says:

      James, I hear you on the paragraph 2 stuff. I taught a class on political theory and something or other (can’t remember), so we covered to Golden Oldies. But I wanted to spruce things up a bit, so I had the kids read some contemporary stuff as well – Thomas Friedman and Noam Chomsky included. When the evaluations came in, 4-5 students said it was a great class, except for the Mark-Chomsky indoctrination sections.

      For some reason, one I still have trouble getting my mind around, presenting Marx right beside Adam Smith!, was an affront to some students sensibilities.

      It was icky, I guess.Report

      • Avatar James Hanley says:

        Heh, when I include Marx in my pol econ class, I make sure the students understand he was a classical economist drawing on Adam Smith.Report

      • Avatar BlaiseP says:

        Doncha wish even a tenth of the people who invoke the name of Karl Marx had actually read him?Report

        • Avatar Stillwater says:

          Yeah. That’s another thing about it. A lot of his analysis was balls-on. Even if the Workers of the World thing didn’t pan out.

          {{But I think Engles wrote that anyway!}}Report

          • Avatar James Hanley says:

            His major error was taking the labor theory of value too literally.Report

            • Avatar Stillwater says:

              Agreed. He was too idealistic about that. It’s a nice idea, tho.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                What? Sorry, but that’s crazy talk. It’s neither a nice idea nor an un-nice idea; just a wrong one.Report

              • Avatar Stillwater says:

                No, no, no. Dude. “Nice” doesn’t have to mean what you think it means – an affirmation. It can mean “well thought out” or “clever” independently of its truth.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                But I don’t think the labor theory of value is either well thought out or clever. Truly I don’t. The same amount of labor can create different amounts of value, and huge amounts of labor can even create minimal value (Sisyphusean labor, or any attempt by me to create sellable artwork). And to the extent it’s a useful construct, it ignored the value of the labor of organizing. I find Marx’s fundamental problem to be that he took a quick and dirty assumption and treated it as a fundamental truth without really thinking it through.

                Because once you realize the labor theory of value is fatally flawed, the whole exploitation business that’s at the heart of his theory collapses.Report

            • Avatar BlaiseP says:

              My analysis of Marx says he failed to grasp how little property it would take to make a peasant feel like an owner. Marx didn’t understand how quickly Europe would come to terms with the impact of the Industrial Revolution and nationalism.

              Frank Zappa: “Communism will never work. People like to own stuff.”Report

          • Avatar Will Truman says:

            When you look at someone like Marx, he was able to sell his ideas because they resonated. They resonated because he was identifying real problems. Not every problem has a solution, and not every solution is less bad than the problem it seeks to alleviate, but it’s important to recognize why ideas – even ones with which we stringently disagree – resonate. (And not just chalk it up to “people are stupid and/or selfish and/or entitled.” – though, of course, some are. But it’s hard to form a movement on these things alone.)Report

            • Avatar Stillwater says:

              Intrinsic to the whole LVT is an idea of collectivism, it seems to me. We’re all working to rise out of the slog. That idea resonates with people. (Some people.) But the idea that the value of a thing is the labor put into creating it has been pretty convincingly shown to be wrong. {Unless you adopt a question-begging conception of “value”.}}Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Marxists must not be confused with Marx, heh. Marx never implied an LTV, though others did. His version was rather simpler and Marx’s law of labour still holds true:

                The employee’s work, or anyone’s work for that matter, comes down to two sums: cost of goods sold and profit. In the case of the worker, his wages are part of COGS. Profits go to the people who hired him.

                Automation was just beginning, but even in the 1860s, the economics of the railroads and factory showed how capital investments could turn the worker into just another machine on the factory floor, an extension, if you will, of the machine itself, making the labour costs of any commodity go down.

                Marx presumed, correctly, when we buy something, we’re really buying the labour behind them: certainly not a concept Marx invented, nor even Smith or Ricardo, it was far older than them. The Marx-ists never really understood how to make this work. They kept yammering on about how those wicked capitalists were extracting profits at the expense of the workers. Marx was continually having to correct them. But someone else was listening to Marx, a rather more clever man, Otto von Bismarck, who grasped Marx’s point immediately. Their lives overlap. Marx was slightly younger but they are inseparable historically: they are bookends. To understand one, we must understand the other and they could not be more opposite.

                Machines cannot rebel, reasoned Bismarck, but men can. Therefore, I shall institute some forms of redistribution to keep men from rebelling and going over to the Communists. All of them, workers, owners, consumers, depend upon a stable regime. Machines make men more efficient but wages cannot be driven ever-lower without creating rebellion. I shall therefore institute various forms of state socialism to keep this inchoate rebellion at bay.

                Bismarck hated the Socialists but he stole all their tools and Marx knew it. Toward the end of his life, there’s Marx in Critique of the Gotha Program, furiously railing at the compromises the Socialists were willing to make, little realising he had already won the struggle to change the entire dialogue. The bourgeois capitalist had forced the old aristocrats like Bismarck to negotiate with them and make concessions. The welfare state had arisen alongside both Marx and Bismarck and things would never be the same again at a theoretical level.

                Well, both sides still clung to their error in many places. Some people around here still advocate for sweatshops, more out of vanity and pique than good sense, generally. Even they are willing to concede man is not a machine, that he has rights, that his children have rights. Oh, they’ll try to dispute their charge, positive or negative, but down deep they don’t see how deeply ingrained the influence of Marx has become, even in their own rejection of him.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                They kept yammering on about how those wicked capitalists were extracting profits at the expense of the workers. Marx was continually having to correct them.

                ???? Care to provide some cites for that. It’s been a long time since I actually read Marx, so maybe I’m just forgetting.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Try Marx’s Poverty of Philosophy where he attacks Proudhon on just this charge. Marx lays out the Law of Value starting with Poverty of Philosophy and spends most of the rest of his life on the topic. I’m sorry for the wikification on that, but this is, after all, just a comment.

                Marx was, above all, a practical man. We think of him as a theorist but he rejected theory as much as was possible, working first from the reality of the situation back into the reasons behind it.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                OK, I get the subtle but important distinctions between Marx’s law of value and the LTV. But his law of value still seems to treat the value of commodities as proportional to the amount of labor time put into them. Strictly speaking, that labor time is just one of the business costs that determine the price the firm needs to sell at to make a profit, whereas the value is the amount a consumer is willing to pay.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Marx didn’t go that far. He only went as far as the bookkeeping for COGS and profit.

                Remember, most people’s complaints with Marx arise when they start with theory. Marx tried to explain his Law of Value without pretending he had an explanation for it, rather like Newton with his Law of Gravity, without an explanation; hypotheses non fingo.

                There are very few constants in the Law of Value but there are some obvious truths within it which lead us to concepts such as GDP and the Business Cycle, an essential restatement of the Law of Value. The problem with the Law of Value resolves to the fact we can’t test a hypothesis without making background assumptions: the Duhem-Quine Problem. The Marx-ists presume such tests are possible and they just aren’t, hence LTV: a rush to conclusions Marx himself denied was possible.

                As with Newton, maybe someone in the distant future will flush out a Value Particle from an Economic Accelerator, as we seem to have flushed out the Higgs Boson, the mass-ifying particle. Marx says the Invisible Hand isn’t as invisible as all that. It’s not even a hand. Quit trying to reify it. We’re better served, with both Marx and Newton, to look at their theories as better viewpoints. Leave Einstein and Higgs for later, Newton’s work was good enough to get us to the outer planets and Marx is still one of the best analysts of Capitalism.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                May I add in passing, This bit explains why the Law of Value is not LTV.Report

            • Avatar James Hanley says:

              And why his ideas still resonate. Fools like Fukuyama who gasp in awe at the end of history are pretty short-sighted. I have a friend who saw Jeanne Kirkpatrick speak, in the ’90s, and she told the audience they’d better understand their Marx.Report

    • Avatar Murali says:

      But I teach a methods and analysis class, too, and I don’t see that as an appropriate statement on the syllabus.

      I was talking to some guys at the office (at the freedom centre) and they said that one of the things she may have been aiming at was the notoriously biased and leading language that people use in surveys in the social sciences. Since language use was so important to survey design, she may wanted people to build the habit of not smuggling in normative language in what is supposed to be a purely positive field.Report

  11. Avatar Kazzy says:

    Regarding “shorthand”, I struggle with this a lot, too.

    As someone who has the word “diversity” in his title, I get a lot of eye rolls. When I attempt to define my role, usually saying something to the effect of, “I’m working to ensure that all students get the full access to the of offerings and services that our school provides,” some folks dismiss it as “liberalness” or whatever. Really? Making sure all the students in our school are getting the benefits of our school is “liberal”? What would be “conservative”? Teaching half the kids and pushing the other half into lockers? I don’t get it…

    We should ALL be focused on serving our students. We might disagree on how to do that and that disagreement may break down upon more academic understandings of a liberal/conservative divide. And perhaps those dismissing me are assuming a “how” to my “what” but, well, just stop assuming.Report

    • Avatar James Hanley says:

      What would be “conservative”? Teaching half the kids and pushing the other half into lockers? I don’t get it…

      Frighteningly close to the truth.Report

      • Avatar Kazzy says:

        Damnit, Hanley, I’m trying to be fair to our conservative friends!Report

      • Avatar Mopey Duns says:

        You arent being charitable or honest.

        The article you cite is about LBGT issues. I assume what the (religious) conservative group in question is worried about is that statements disapproving of a LGBT lifestyle would be classified as bullying.

        In fact, I found a quote: “The group’s main concerns, he said, are protecting students from being accused of bullying simply for stating their beliefs and from being forced to participate in lessons that contradict their religious beliefs. For instance, a student who does nothing more than share his opinion that homosexuality is immoral shouldn’t be labeled a bully and put through counseling that says his religion is wrong.”

        If the group is legitimately advocating physically or verbally abusing LGBT kids, well, fuck them. But as it stands, you are out of line.Report

        • Avatar James Hanley says:

          That’s the group’s cover story. Ed Brayton at Dispatches from the Culture Wars has dug into this story further. LGBT students are being emotionally and physically harassed, including being beaten up, shoved into lockers, and so on. The policy is an effort to prevent that, and conservative Christian groups are trying to block the policy that would punish students for harassment of LGBT kids. The group’s main concerns aren’t directed at what’s actually in the policy.Report

          • Avatar Ryan Noonan says:

            Even still, I’m not entirely sure why we’re supposed to tolerate kids in schools disapproving of gay people. Do we tolerate it when they “share [their] opinion that [black people] are immoral”? I (unlike, say, Clarence Thomas) have a pretty wide notion of what kinds of free speech we should allow students in a school environment, but at some point bigotry is bigotry and schools aren’t the public square.Report

            • Avatar James Hanley says:

              I think it’s a finer line, because then we’re touching on free speech issues, freedom of religion, and freedom of conscience in general. But obviously we shouldn’t allow them to make any group of kids feel unwelcome.

              And of course I think it’s a dodge to say that “not being able to express my opinion that you’re going to roast in hell because you’re a sexual pervert makes me feel unwelcome.” The appropriate response to that is, “and we’re not going to let the atheist kids mock you for your religious beliefs.”

              Part of the trick is just to teach kids (people) how to behave appropriately. It’s ok, when asked, to say “My faith teaches that homosexuality is a sin.” It’s not ok to look for opportunities to yell “God hates fags!” But to say we won’t tolerate their religious views being expressed, or perhaps simply being held, at all seems to me to step over the line.Report

            • Avatar MFarmer says:

              Probably, the more you allow this type of speech, the quicker it will be ridiculed and shown as the stupidity it is — as long as the racists speak with power openly only among one another, the more it’s re-inforced, but if it is allowed freely in mixed company, it’s exposed, then the non-racists will show it for what it is and the racist speakers will not be rewarded.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Our First Amendment rights only go so far. It might prohibit the government from acting against you but it says nothing about your employer or your school acting against you.Report

              • Avatar Glyph says:

                Private employers are certainly exempt, but public schooling can reasonably seen as an arm of “the government”, no? Paying taxes, to provide schooling which seeks to curtail someone’s First Amendment rights (if in fact that is what is occurring) seems highly problematic.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                In fact public schools explicitly are a branch of government for constitutional purposes.

                But in K-12 the Supreme Court allows more limitations than in public universities. Apparently children can’t handle a full load of constitutional rights.

                I teach at a private school; I like to remind my students that they have no First Amendment rights while they’re on campus–its a good way of shaking them up just enough to get them to actually think about what the means.Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                I believe the Supreme Court defined it as “locis parentis”; basically, when you are at school, the school and its employees are your de facto parents, or guardians, and can exert similar (though not identical) authority over you.

                I’ll say that I struggle with this when working with four- and five-year-olds. Exactly where do I draw the line between my authority and their self-autonomy. I’m a big believer in the latter, not only for developmental reasons, but because of rights-based arguments as well. For instance, I will not “confiscate” materials from students. The most I’ll do is hold it until the end of the day, when I return it for them to take and keep at home. Even that is rare; if they have something at school they shouldn’t, I advise them to secure it responsibly in their bag or cubby. As I see it, that is there personal property that I have zero right to take permanently from them.

                Unfortunately, some folks who work with older students who inarguably ought to have more rights are not so thoughtful.Report

  12. Avatar James Vonder Haar says:

    The point about merely being asked to try on a differing point of view, that being the essence of critical thinking, rings very true to me. One of the most valuable lessons this atheist learned from his Great Books education was how to contribute to a discussion on works that came from a fundamentally alien point of view. I cherish the work I did on Aquinas, Augustine, and Paul. I wonder if the really unfortunate people are those who go through an academic environment that mirrors their ideology perfectly.Report

  13. Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

    What kind of a journalist will he become?

    Sounds like he has a great future with Fox News.

    Good post, Mr. Likko. But, you pull your punches too much. I’ve seen far too many conservatives (even on this site, even in these comments) who act the same way as Mr. Lovelace.Report

  14. Avatar dhex says:

    i feel badly for most professors, at least some of the time.

    i definitely agree that the kid is, in technical terms, a total douche. actually, i’d call him a crybaby. absolutely no intellectual flexibility. even most tenured professors, no matter how intractable, aren’t going to mess you up if you do the work, put in good faith efforts, and don’t act like a total jerk, even if they disagree with every word you write and every sentence you speak in the class.

    on the other hand, i think the syllabus would do well to drop the “social justice” malarky. there’s a time and a place to wear your heart on your sleeve, but that seems somewhat inappropriate, even in your bog standard american liberal arts college.Report

  15. Avatar Diablo says:

    You know all this…back and forth…this is why a fled to engineering. The only thing that floors me is how low the standards are for non-STEM courses. My sister teaches music at a university. I am amazed at the crap she puts up with compare to my experience at college as an undergrad. I will say this; after taking a creative writing class my senior year, I never want to hear the cliche that Engineers can’t write. I could not believe the complaining from junior and senior English majors that the course required us to individually produce a 12 page final short story. At the time, I had to weekly produce between 15-20 pages of lab reports for solids, another 20-25 pages for fluids, while doing undergrad research, which was a requirement at my university. This wasn’t even my full course load at the time as I also had circuits and dynamics.

    I really wish I could scoff at the example giving in the original post but having lived with a Poli-sci student for two years…I pretty much learn first hand that the degree required little work.Report

    • Avatar Diablo says:

      And I am stupid. Its what I get for posting prior to proofreading. The first sentence should contain an “I” vice “a”.

      Sorry as my English is not the best.Report

      • Avatar BlaiseP says:

        Your English is entirely adequate. It’s a tough language. Technical writing is not easy: I’ve been doing it all my professional life. But even in technical writing, there’s a good deal of back-and-forth if you consider how carefully the writer must make his case. It just doesn’t come out on the page. Each sentence must be true, not the sort of dialectical truth of emotion and perspective, but internally true in the binary sense.Report

        • Avatar Diablo says:

          It was always interesting in college with my roommate my freshman year. I was fresh out of the military (at the age of 26) living in the dorm with a 19 year old, rather passionate John McCain supporter.

          He would often pump me for information about US history when I was a kid (such as the fall of the Berlin Wall, the End of Apartheid, the Cold War in general). Having to explain to him that not only was I not natively born in the US as a vet, but that is was also common for many of us to come from overseas. (my father was a US citizen but I grew up South of the Border).

          I used to joke with him that the US doesn’t really have a border problem. India/Pakistan…that is a border problem. You look at KIA reports from Iraq and Afghanistan and it reads like the work schedule of a burrito stand some of the time.

          I more like technical writing as it is clear and concise. My roommate once said he wish the US president was an engineer. I laughed because wasn’t Hoover and Carter engineers? Americans donot like them?

          South Korea did that though right? Wasn’t their government for a long time made up of technologists or something? I know for while that their people protested against the government a lot but their living standards are high.Report

      • Avatar Stillwater says:

        The first sentence should contain an “I” vice “a”.

        Sorry as my English is not the best.

        No worries. I’m an English speaker and do that all the time. Something about certain contexts where “a” and “I” are the subject, or something-or-other. Translitersubstaintiation maybe.Report

  16. Avatar M.A. says:

    As a journalism major, Mr. Lovelace appears to be aiming himself at exactly the sort of career in which he will be routinely required to understand and describe opinions and perspectives other than his own. What kind of a journalist will he become?

    The snarky answer would be: Fox News will snap him right up.

    Given how Fox treated Thomas Ricks recently, that’s probably not far off the mark either.

  17. Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

    So, I’ve been reading and responding to the comments, without going to the source article Burt posted.

    I decided to rectify that, at which point I learned that this wasn’t a reporter interviewing a student, or reporting on a student’s experience, but a journalism student writing an article about his own experience.

    My first piece of advice for Mr. Lovelace is to include links to source documents when reporting. Because, you know, taking things out of context is pretty much a guarantee that you’ll look like an idiot when the source document comes to light, if it doesn’t read the way you present it (and, while the jury is certainly still out on the content of the syllabus, I’m usually suspicious when someone reports a narrative buttressed by selected quotations, instead of including and dissecting the offending document in toto).

    Burt, the syllabus does not appear to be online in the usual suspect places, this isn’t a failure of your google-fu, it’s not even linked in the course description on the Butler U site.Report

    • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

      Also: there are some fucking racists on the comment thread of that article. Unabashed ones. Getting high fives, no less.Report

      • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

        At least the editor appears to have the good taste to take *some* of them out.

        Also removed my comment, so less “keeping the marketplace of ideas clean” and more “keeping criticism out and hiding the people who use the n-word from view”, so that’s not exactly a great editorial policy.Report

        • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

          Correct this last: they have a voting system, and the default sort is by votes, not time.

          That comment thread is seriously disturbing. I actually want to punch some of those people.Report

          • Avatar wooby says:

            That comment thread is more than a little disturbing, but then when you look at the other articles is becomes more obvious why, perhaps: War on Jesus? Please.Report

  18. Avatar Rufus F. says:

    Without seeing the syllabus, it’s hard to say much for sure, but if it does contain the instruction that in the class one will,
    “write and speak in a way that does not assume American-ness, maleness, whiteness, heterosexuality, middle-class status, etc. to be the norm” and instead use “inclusive language” as “a fundamental issue of social justice,”
    the problem I would see is that’s the sort of thing that would freak out an undergraduate. It’s hard to know exactly what that means and undergrads pretty much expect to be flunked out of university at any moment because the profs all hate them, so vague instructions in a syllabus are a pretty bad idea. Now, if it said the students would learn to do those things during the semester, they’re not going to panic. But freaking them out ensures that they’ll do worse work than they normally would. Don’t get me wrong- I believe in pushing them to do things that they find challenging, but I don’t believe in vague instructions.

    Now, how you go from that to:
    … I expected to hear professors express opinions different from my own. I did not expect to be judged before I ever walked through the door, and did not think I would be forced to agree with my teachers’ worldviews or suffer the consequences.
    is a bit hard to understand as well. What is being assumed about the student? That he can’t think or write in those ways without being told to? That he can think and write in those ways if he is told to? What exactly is so terrible about either of those? Also, what is the “worldview” that one is forced to agree with in order to write in a way that doesn’t assume that white, male, heterosexuality is the norm (god, that’s a vague instruction!)? Is it a “worldview” to think those things are the norm and thus he’s being forced to go against his deepest beliefs? And what are the “consequences”? He’s going to be flunked because he insists on thinking that the norm is white, male, American heterosexuality???

    I mean, what I’m getting from this is a teacher who can’t express their requirements clearly and maybe is pushing the students to do something challenging without providing them guidance to do so, on one hand, and a kid with a persecution complex on the other. I can’t say I’m unfamiliar with either type.Report

  19. Avatar James Hanley says:

    To return this series of comments to the original point of the post, I want to announce that I just did, in actual fact, reach for the bottle of whiskey on my bookshelf and pour myself a shot. (The last of the 4 Roses, a not dreadful, but somewhat underwhelming bourbon; nice smoky flavor but a harsh finish.)Report

    • Avatar M.A. says:

      I recommend a water chaser anytime you get near that stuff.Report

      • Avatar James Hanley says:

        Bourbon in general, or just 4 Roses?Report

        • Avatar M.A. says:

          Anything with a harsh finish – most American Straight tends to have a harsh finish, really.

          Was yours a single-barrel variety or one of their standardized ones?Report

          • Avatar James Hanley says:

            Single. I’m just enough of a whiskey snob–or snob wannabee–that I won’t drink anything else. The problems with a water chaser, for me, is that I sip rather than down shots (well, most of the time), and I like the taste to linger.Report

    • Avatar Kazzy says:


      Is that a breach of any sort of professional ethics, written or otherwise? I sort of assumed you were joking when you first said it but evidently not. I find it surprising that you would keep and imbibe alcohol in your office on a college campus.Report

      • Avatar James Hanley says:

        Nope, no breaches. I keep it low key, of course. I’ll often have a tot when I’m done with classes, but even a shot before a class wouldn’t be a sufficient amount to diminish my teaching.* Even better is my chemist friend who still has some bottles of brandy that were products of his dissertation research–tastiest dissertation ever.

        *I once had a law class that met Tuesday morning and Thursday afternoon. The afternoon session, coming after the prof’s 3, maybe 4 (or 5) martini lunch were less coherent, but also more interesting, more spiced with those random nuggets of wisdom distilled from a long and active life.Report

        • Avatar Kazzy says:

          Is it kept in view of students? I would think that with all the efforts being made on campuses to respond to student drinking (particularly underage drinking), you might get more pushback.

          I rarely made it to office hours so I can’t really speak to what my school did.Report

          • Avatar James Hanley says:

            No. My desk extends at a right angle from some bookshelves, and I have it on a lower shelf where it’s not readily visible from the other side of the desk. On the other hand, if I have the shot sitting on my desk and a student comes by, I don’t hide the shot glass (although neither do I sip from it in their presence).

            Our former college president was a moralistic teetotaler, but our current one likes his drink. It was a pleasant change when the faculty/staff Christmas party started featuring beer and wine. He also reportedly once told a group of students to “drink up,” although I don’t that first hand. I suspect he’s in that growing camp of college presidents who think we need to legalize drinking for 18-20 year olds so they can do it more legitimately and don’t need to binge as much.Report

            • Avatar Kazzy says:

              That seems wise, on all fronts.

              Given how many of our parents are hard drinkers and/or alcoholics (more of the rich-and-not-sure-what-to-do-with-themselves type than the poor-and-down-and-out type), I could probably drink in the classroom and not even raise an eyebrow amongst the children. I had a student once who, after cleaning off her paintbrush in the water cup, remarked, “This looks like a Bloody Mary.” Really?Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:

                That’s actually a pretty crass and unfair assessment of alcoholism. My apologies to anyone I offended. It is not something to be made light of.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                There are plenty of functional alcoholics, we probably all know one or two. Me, I can’t drink during the day. Used to, God wot.

                So one day I was in a bar at lunch, just down the street from work. I was having a bloody mary and a sandwich. Some salesmen from my company came in off the street for lunch. I sorta slunk down on my stool, tried to pretend I didn’t see them. They were pretty tight with the boss, Tony, a goombah from the old school who kept an extensive wet bar in his office.

                So I come back from the bar, go back to coding. I get a call from Tony. “Get up here to my office, right away!” I about shat myself. Oh gawd, am I gonna get fired?”

                So I go into his office. “What’s this I hear about how you didn’t say Hi to Pete and Steve down at The Embers? When you see someone from this company, you go over and say Hello, dammit. Now get yourself a drink and don’t be shy about coming up here after hours and getting one, either. You’re too wound up, too tight. Work too many hours, too.”Report

          • Avatar Maribou says:

            This stuff still confuses me (even though I am very careful to respect my workplace’s very well thought out ethical choices), because Montreal (where I lived as an undergrad) had a drinking age of 18.

            Some of our profs, in smaller classes, would take us all out for a beer after class. Not every class, or anything, but to celebrate the end of the semester, or getting through all our presentations, or something. No one blinked.

            I honestly don’t think most colleges in the States are trying to crack down on underage drinking. As James mentioned below, plenty of them are trying to legalize and hence tame it. In 2008, there was a big drama about 135 college presidents & senior administrators advocating reopening the debate around lowering the public drinking age back to 18 (the Amethyst Initiative) … it’s by far not a closed question.Report

      • Avatar Morat20 says:

        I watch local lawyers having beers at lunch before, presumably, returning to court. The running joke around here is meeting with the Russians (in Russia) is the only time we’re allowed to drink on the clock.

        Depends on the job, really. My current one? No — we’re all subject to DoT standards (because some of us are legally required to, and management doesn’t want to work out who, so 1400 of us are to cover the 150 who have to be) so having even a beer at lunch means we can’t return to work. (Or rather, we could be fired if we do). We do occasionally have ‘debriefs’ on Friday that take place at a local bar and involve pitchers and pool.

        Previous job? You didn’t drink AT work, but a beer at lunch was fine. It was basically “Don’t be tipsy, don’t be drunk, don’t let it affect your lunch, don’t have booze in your desk”.

        Colleges? I dunno, I guess it would vary. Some probably have strict policies, some probably have “don’t let students see you” policies. Given the hours some of my professors kept, I’d be shocked if they didn’t.

        They have more work than teaching and office hours, and irregular schedules in general.Report

        • Avatar Kazzy says:

          Yea, I don’t think a beer at lunch is a problem (depending on the job). It was more drinking in the office on a college campus with impressionable kids who are getting other messages about alcohol.Report

          • Avatar Burt Likko says:

            I wouldn’t dare. I’m in and out of court so much and have so many drains on my patience already that I wouldn’t trust my judgment. For me, drinking is not something one does immediately before practicing law. I suppose I could do it with one or two in me if I had to but I really wouldn’t want to be in that position.

            When the day is done, that’s when I go for the sauce. If I get a call after I’ve had a couple, the answer to your question is very likely doing to be “Say nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to anyone for any reason, and I mean FOR ANY REASON, until you and I talk tomorrow morning.”Report

            • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

              “Say nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to anyone for any reason, and I mean FOR ANY REASON, until you and I talk tomorrow morning.”

              You know, every IT person in the world is jealous that you can do that and have it be regarded as sage advice. Even if they wouldn’t want any bit of the rest of your job, they just want the license to use that line.Report

              • Avatar Burt Likko says:

                Does it mitigate your jealousy if I assure you that this advice is given with the 100% absolute bet-the-farm on it certainty that it will be ignored, and in a harmful way?
                …Not that an IT professional’s advice is ever ignored, I understand that much.Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                A bit, yes 🙂Report

        • Avatar James Hanley says:

          They have more work than teaching and office hours

          You know our jobs better than some college administrators do. 😉

          A few years back I was on our union negotiating team. We had a proposal that a faculty member could buy out a course for the amount it would take to hire an adjunct to teach it. Perfectly revenue neutral. But one of the folks on the other side of the table started arguing that we were asking for a 1/3 reduction in work load for only a small reduction in pay. We were completely puzzled at first as to what he could possibly mean, and then it dawned on us that he really did equate our teaching load with our work load. We were so stunned we almost couldn’t speak full sentences in response.Report

      • Avatar Kim says:

        A Chemistry lab instructor at my local community college ran a whiskey still. She often retreated there when the toxic gas fumes were getting too much in the chem lab. (no, they were not supposed to be creating that level of toxic shit. if they had read the lab manual, they wouldn’t have been making that.)Report

  20. Avatar Kazzy says:

    Here is a question I haven’t seen explicitly asked (though I haven’t read all 200+ comments):

    To what extent are folks of color or women or immigrants or other members of marginalized groups asked to “disregard” their identity in classes that don’t make such an explicit effort to be inclusive? Assuming Mr. Lovelace is taking a full credit load, he is likely in 4 other classes, none of which appear to make this demand of him. But those 4 classes might be making that same demand of its black students or female students or gay students. “Don’t write your papers like a black man… just write them as a man.” “Don’t write your papers like a woman… just write them as a person.” the syllabi likely don’t say that, but there is often implicit or explicit pressure to do so. At the very least, there is often the perception that such pressure exists. As I noted above, a black student might have to avoid his actual voice in a paper on slavery if it might risk coming off as if he has some axe to grind and thus negatively impact his grade. It is very possible that Mr. Lovelace is being asked to do what his black, female, gay, foreign-born, or non-middle-class classmates have to do every day of their lives.

    The travesty.Report

    • Avatar greginak says:

      I think your question is apt Kazzy. What we would consider “proper” english is what most white folks speak. Speaking in the Af Am vernacular would not be considered “proper.” That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be some sort of “proper” speech( correct spelling, grammar rules) but members of minority groups will have to do some fitting into the way white people talk while we wouldn’t even think about it for the most part. It may not always be a huge issue or massive stretch for people to use “proper” speech but its still something they need to do.Report

      • Avatar Kazzy says:

        This is where I think Delpit really makes her hay. She was a fairly active opponent of teaching Af Am Vernacular, back when it was called “ebonics”. Her language was that doing so was teaching kids to fail, because they were going to be looked down upon for speaking that way. She (and others) have argued that black kids should be taught “proper” English, but in a way that demonstrates the somewhat arbitrary nature by which that has become “proper”. Affirm where they come from, prepare them for success, and arm them to make change. Really a “both/and” approach. Which still results in asking more of black kids but at least in a way that is intended to better their lives as opposed to stigmatize them.

        But, yea, the amount of code switching some folks have to engage in just to have a “normal” day would melt some people’s brains. And most have no idea about it.Report

        • Avatar BlaiseP says:

          So I studied linguistics. Spent a lot of time with creoles and demotic languages. The world is pretty hard on languages which haven’t taken the trouble to write up an orthography. There’s no teaching anyone to write in a language if it can be spelled any way you like.

          The Haitian Creole language now has a formal orthography. It’s taught in schools. People are writing books in it. AAV isn’t one dialect, either, it varies widely. If it wants to be a language, let its scholars step up and protect it. In the mean time, SWE does have orthographies and lexicons and grammars and manuals of usage so that’s what we can teach, even if it does involve code switching.

          The Ottoman Empire had a horrible language called Court Turkish. It wasn’t Turkish, it wasn’t Persian, it wasn’t Arabic but it had aspects of all of them. It was the official language of the empire and it was only written by professional scribes. A few people actually spoke it long ago but it became roughly akin to the Latin of the Renaissance, a formal written language and little more. The first thing Ataturk did was to tear it out and put Turkish on a sound linguistic footing, use the Roman alphabet: Arabic script was wildly inappropriate for Turkish.

          AAV’s proponents should step up to the plate and do the same thing, if they want students to learn it. But just letting kids write whatever they like, that might work for kids learning their ABCs. If kids aren’t reading by third grade, they’re screwed thereafter.Report

          • Avatar Kazzy says:

            You make a good point about its proponents. The language/dialect is only in its infancy, as least as being formally recognized (which many folks still don’t do). For a long time it was simply seen as bad English, then “Ebonics”, and only very recently as AAV. I would be BSing if I said I knew the right approach to handling it and its speakers. But I do think it is something to consider when we are asking kids to write in a way that is not natural to them, and the disparate burden this puts on different kids and groups.Report

            • Avatar Kim says:

              Get everyone used to code switching. One book in AAV (which, it is to be understood, is MOSTLY in the conversations. Let the folks talk natural like, but write the BOOK in standard english). The next in something russian-inflected (or Shakespeare or Burns).

              English is a trade language. Getting folks used to “people talk different” and “People use this language different” are both fine values to teach.Report

            • Avatar greginak says:

              I have to write reports for the court and family court clients. Lots of my clients are People of Low Literacy. I try to write my reports so they can understand but i’m sure some of what i write goes over their heads either due to the language or the concepts. At some point i just have to write the most effective way i can so the judge gets the info they need. However i always try to keep in mind how my clients might understand what i’m saying when i request stuff from them and the advice i give them about interacting with the court.Report

            • Avatar BlaiseP says:

              Writing isn’t natural. Natural is a bunch of wolves howling in a forest. Natural is a couple of goofy kids inventing a private language so nobody else can understand them and putting them on Urban Dictionary. AAV isn’t a language in its infancy, it’s been evolving since the first slaves were unloaded on this continent. Its speakers were systematically undereducated for hundreds of years. AAV is a big mess: it’s a collection of patois, that’s what linguists call a non-standard language.

              Writing for clarity is the most un-natural process imaginable. Languages grow all the time. Take a look at that DFW essay, you really should read it all. Here’s another huge quote block from it:

              You’d sure know lexicography had an underbelly if you read the little introductory essays in modern dictionaries — pieces like Webster’s DEU’s “A Brief History of English Usage” or Webster’s Third’s “Linguistic Advances and Lexicography” or AHD-3’s “Usage in the American Heritage Dictionary: The Place of Criticism.” But almost nobody ever bothers with these little intros, and it’s not just their six-point type or the fact that dictionaries tend to be hard on the lap. It’s that these intros aren’t actually written for you or me or the average citizen who goes to The Dictionary just to see how to spell (for instance) meringue. They’re written for other lexicographers and critics, and in fact they’re not really introductory at all but polemical. They’re salvos in the Usage Wars that have been under way ever since editor Philip Gove first sought to apply the value-neutral principles of structural linguistics to lexicography in Webster’s Third. Gove’s famous response to conservatives who howled[14] when Webster’s Third endorsed OK and described ain’t as “used orally in most parts of the U.S. by many cultivated speakers [sic]” was this: “A dictionary should have no traffic with … artificial notions of correctness or superiority. It should be descriptive and not prescriptive.” These terms stuck and turned epithetic, and linguistic conservatives are now formally known as Prescriptivists and linguistic liberals as Descriptivists.

              The former are far better known. When you read the columns of William Safire or Morton Freeman or books like Edwin Newman’s Strictly Speaking or John Simon’s Paradigms Lost, you’re actually reading Popular Prescriptivism, a genre sideline of certain journalists (mostly older ones, the vast majority of whom actually do wear bow ties) whose bemused irony often masks a Colonel Blimp’s rage at the way the beloved English of their youth is being trashed in the decadent present. The plutocratic tone and styptic wit of Safire and Newman and the best of the Prescriptivists is often modeled after the mandarin-Brit personas of Eric Partridge and H. W. Fowler, the same Twin Towers of scholarly Prescriptivism whom Garner talks about revering as a kid.[15]

              Descriptivists, on the other hand, don’t have weekly columns in the Times. These guys tend to be hard-core academics, mostly linguists or Comp theorists. Loosely organized under the banner of structural (or “descriptive”) linguistics, they are doctrinaire positivists who have their intellectual roots in the work of Auguste Comte and Ferdinand de Saussure and their ideological roots firmly in the U.S. sixties. The brief explicit mention Garner’s Preface gives this crew —

              Somewhere along the line, though, usage dictionaries
              got hijacked by the descriptive linguists.[16] who observe
              language scientifically. For the pure descriptivist, it’s
              impermissible to say that one form of language is
              any better than another: as long as a native speaker
              says it, it’s OK — and anyone who takes a contrary
              stand is a dunderhead…. Essentially, descriptivists and
              prescriptivists are approaching different problems.
              Descriptivists want to record language as it’s actually
              used, and they perform a useful function — though
              their audience is generally limited to those willing to pore
              through vast tomes of dry-as-dust research.

              — is disingenuous in the extreme, especially the “approaching different problems” part, because it vastly underplays the Descriptivists’ influence on U.S. culture. For one thing, Descriptivism so quickly and thoroughly took over English education in this country that just about everybody who started junior high after c. 1970 has been taught to write Descriptively — via “freewriting,” “brainstorming,” “journaling,” a view of writing as self-exploratory and -expressive rather than as communicative, an abandonment of systematic grammar, usage, semantics, rhetoric, etymology. For another thing, the very language in which today’s socialist, feminist, minority, gay, and environmentalist movements frame their sides of political debates is informed by the Descriptivist belief that traditional English is conceived and perpetuated by Privileged WASP Males[17] and is thus inherently capitalist, sexist, racist, xenophobic, homophobic, elitist: unfair. Think Ebonics. Think of the involved contortions people undergo to avoid he as a generic pronoun, or of the tense deliberate way white males now adjust their vocabularies around non-w.m.’s. Think of today’s endless battles over just the names of things — “Affirmative Action” vs. “Reverse Discrimination,” “Pro-Life” vs. “Pro-Choice,” “Undercount” vs. “Vote Fraud,” etc.

              The Descriptivist revolution takes a little time to unpack, but it’s worth it. The structural linguists’ rejection of conventional usage rules depends on two main arguments. The first is academic and methodological. In this age of technology, Descriptivists contend, it’s the Scientific Method — clinically objective, value-neutral, based on direct observation and demonstrable hypothesis — that should determine both the content of dictionaries and the standards of “correct” English. Because language is constantly evolving, such standards will always be fluid. Gore’s now classic introduction to Webster’s Third outlines this type of Descriptivism’s five basic edicts:

              “1 — Language changes constantly;

              2 — Change is normal;

              3 — Spoken language is the language;

              4 — Correctness rests upon usage;

              5 — All usage is relative.”

              These principles look prima facie OK — commonsensical and couched in the bland simple s.-v.-o, prose of dispassionate Science — but in fact they’re vague and muddled and it takes about three seconds to think of reasonable replies to each one of them, viz.:

              1 — OK, but how much and how fast?

              2 — Same thing. Is Heraclitean flux as normal or desirable as gradual change ? Do some changes actually serve the language’s overall pizzazz better than others? And how many people have to deviate from how many conventions before we say the language has actually changed? Fifty percent? Ten percent?

              3 — This is an old claim, at least as old as Plato’s Phaedrus. And it’s specious. If Derrida and the infamous Deconstructionists have done nothing else, they’ve debunked the idea that speech is language’s primary instantiation.[18] Plus consider the weird arrogance of Gove’s (3) w/r/t correctness. Only the most mullahlike Prescriptivists care very much about spoken English; most Prescriptive usage guides concern Standard Written English.[19]

              4 — Fine, but whose usage? Gove’s (4) begs the whole question. What he wants to imply here, I think, is a reversal of the traditional entailment-relation between abstract rules and concrete usage: Instead of usage ideally corresponding to a rigid set of regulations, the regulations ought to correspond to the way real people are actually using the language. Again, fine, but which people? Urban Latinos? Boston Brahmins? Rural Midwesterners? Appalachian Neogaelics?

              5 — Huh? If this means what it seems to mean, then it ends up biting Gove’s whole argument in the ass. (5) appears to imply that the correct answer to the above “which people?” is: “All of them!” And it’s easy to show why this will not stand up as a lexicographical principle. The most obvious problem with it is that not everything can go in The Dictionary. Why not? Because you can’t observe every last bit of every last native speaker’s “language behavior,” and even if you could, the resultant dictionary would weigh 4 million pounds and have to be updated hourly.[20] The fact is that any lexicographer is going to have to make choices about what gets in and what doesn’t. And these choices are based on … what? And now we’re right back where we started.Report

              • Avatar greginak says:

                Interesting stuff. I think he overstates his case a bit but DFW has good points. Irregardless of that, or regardless of that, i couldn’t help but think of Mark Twain and the thuderclap he brought down by writing as definitely non-proper English speakers actually spoke. Languages need rules but will always be pushing beyond them.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                Inclusion of grammer that is “improper” is, simply that, inclusive. It says, “you’re here, you exist, how you speak exists.”Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                Heh. I love Twain. Also Charles Dickens putting speech in people’s mouths.

                “Think, Sir!” replied Mr. Weller; “why, I think he’s the wictim o’ connubiality, as Blue Beard’s domestic chaplain said, vith a tear of pity, ven he buried him.”

                All good writers know they can get away with shit inside quotes they can’t do outside the quotes.Report

              • Avatar MikeSchilling says:

                Sam Weller was not, by the way, from Eastern Europe. Apparently 19th-Century Cockneys reversed their v’s and w’s.Report

              • Avatar MikeSchilling says:

                One of things I still remember from college linguistics is that one of the best tools for tracking language change is etiquette books. You can tell something has entered a language in force when people are being warned against it.Report

              • Avatar BlaiseP says:

                When I was learning Japanese, about half of what I really learned was manners. The Japanese aren’t really as formal as everyone thinks they are, but they’re exquisitely tuned to the nuances of conversation, the tiny phrases interjected during someone else’s speech, the aizuchi.

                Etiquette can be excruciatingly formal and irrelevant. I suppose we could consider all the prohibitions against “ain’t” a bit dated. Profanity and the prohibitions against it have always been with us, likewise Certain Subjects. Those aren’t going away, nor should they.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                Yeah, learning how to “interrupt properly” in Japanese is actual politeness. (also, learning how to decode when they’re saying “no” — and how strongly they mean “No!”).

                In Japan, a beard-wearing foreigner can get away with many, many things, simply by looking a bit crazy. The question that runs through their heads is: “Does he know he’s supposed to pay to get on the subway?”Report

              • Avatar Kazzy says:


                I was unclear. AAV itself is not in its infancy. But its proponents, those who should be standardizing it, are less than a generation old. The study of it is in its infancy.Report

              • Avatar M.A. says:

                I didn’t know it was possible to standardize. In many ways, AAV (or ebonics, or jive, or whatever it’ll be called next decade) follows a pattern of rejection. Attempt to standardize it, or notice a standardization within it strong enough to be repeated by those outside the main subculture, and AAV itself will alter to maintain a modicum of separation.

                Effectively parodied by South Park.

                Mr. Garrison: Chef, what did you do when white people stole your culture?

                Chef: Oh. Well, we black people just always tried to stay out in front of them.

                Mr. Slave: [straightens up] How did you do that?

                Chef: Well, like with our slang. Black people always used to say, “I’m in the house” instead of “I’m here.” But then white people all started to say “in the house” so we switched it to “in the hizzouse.” Hizzouse became hizzizzouse, and then white folk started saying that, and we had to change it to hizzie, then “in the hizzle” which we had to change to “hizzle fo shizzle,” and now, because white people say “hizzle fo shizzle,” we have to say “flippity floppity floop.”

                Mr. Garrison: [slumps forward] We don’t have time for all that, Chef! Oh, if only those Queer Eye For the Straight Guy people understood what they were doing. [thinks] Wait. [rises] That’s it! I know exactly what to do! [yanks on Mr. Slave’s leash] Come on, Mr. Slave! Let’s get back to our flippity floppity floop. [exits the front door with Mr. Slavee]

                Chef: Oh no! Damnit! Don’t call it that!Report

              • Avatar MikeSchilling says:

                There are two things here, and one is not like the other.

                AAV is a dialect of English [1], with a grammar, some distinct pronunciations, and a basic vocabulary. It changes as all languages do: gradually. Slang (or jive, or whatever you want to call it) is often used along with AAVE, but it’s an in-group vocabulary and changes (as Chef explains) as in-groups change or try to stay ahead of outsiders. It’s analogous to how around here we say “space awesome” instead of “wild” or “far out”. Remove it, and we’re still speaking the same language

                1. No disparagement implied. The more formal language I’m writing in now is also a dialect of English, just one that has more prestige.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                Cockney’s both slang and dialect, then?Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling says:


  21. Avatar M.A. says:

    To put a few things in perspective: if you are white, you almost never have to face a simple realization in the current USA.

    That realization is thus: there, but for the grace of God, go I.Report

    • Avatar MFarmer says:

      I so admire your impeccable values. Being an anti-racist in the 21st century is risky, but you don’t back down.Report

      • Avatar James Hanley says:

        It’s not quite as easy as you think. People don’t respond well when one points out their implicit and unconscious biases.Report

        • Avatar kenB says:

          Yes, for some strange reason, people aren’t ready to acknowledge that a complete stranger with no relevant credentials except his own overweening confidence in his own judgment has so much insight into their internal thought processes.Report

          • Avatar James Hanley says:

            Yes, and for some strange reason people also aren’t ready to acknowledge that sometimes the words and actions they don’t ever consciously think about might have implications that they…haven’t consciously thought about.Report

            • Avatar James Hanley says:

              A couple of examples.

              1. My Oklahoma born aunt not infrequently used the word niggers. She didn’t do it in the really nasty sense, but as a general reference to black people. She protested that it was just the word she was taught growing up, that it wasn’t an offensive word. There’s no need to assume she had ill-intent on her part; the word was wrong to use and reflected a thoughtlessness on her part.

              2. Walking home from a bar in San Francisco one night with a friend, I realized I’d forgotten my keys, and I asked him to boost me up to a window so I could get in. He instinctively jumped away from me and stared at me incredulously. “That might be ok for you,” he said, “but I don’t dare do that.” My lack of understanding of the real differences of the worlds he and I lived in was not a consequence of any actual racist feelings or thoughts on my part; it was just that I had never before been put in a position where I was asked to really understand that a black guy’s world was different in important ways than this white guy’s world.

              It’s not all about moralizing, as I think you may have assumed. It’s about just engaging with that old trope about walking a mile in another person’s shoes.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

                That might be ok for you,” he said, “but I don’t dare do that.”

                Was he a college professor, then?Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Heh, no.

                But let me add this:

                I just got an email about an assault that happened near our campus, where the victim was followed, then assaulted and robbed. The descriptions of the attackers are:

                “Suspect #1 :White male, early 20s, wearing a thin, square framed pair of black glasses, long shoulder length dirty blond hair, red ball cap on backwards, red pants with lettering.

                Suspect #2: White male, early 20s, bald or very short hair and a gray hooded sweatshirt.”

                I doubt many people of my skin color instinctively thought, “white guys, of course.”Report

              • Avatar Patrick Cahalan says:

                Nope. I did think, “guys, of course” though.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling says:

                Sure. I was thinking of Skip Gates.Report

              • Avatar Kim says:

                OH, holy shit have I heard a thing or two from black professors! About being eyeballed in liquor stores. And these are the type of black professors who can rattle off the stats on how much MORE likely the white college student is to steal liquor than the balding black man,.Report

              • Avatar kenB says:

                It’s not all about moralizing

                Well, I don’t disagree that there’s a respectful and understanding way to approach this situation; but more often there’s an undercurrent of self-righteousness and condescension, and also an inability to acknowledge that one’s assessment may not actually be correct.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                True, which is perfectly matched by a instinct to reactively assume that’s what’s going on and to use that to justify not even considering what the speaker’s saying. Assholes on both sides, certainly, but let me note that all M.A. did was point out that being white in the U.S. is safer than being a minority, and that maybe we whites ought to keep that in mind more often, and immediately s/he got the “oh, aren’t you so superior and moralistic response.”

                Your criticism is not inaccurate, but it’s misplaced, and I think it’s revealing that your first instinct apparently was to speak out against moralizing rather than to pause and think about whether there was anything worth considering in what had been said.Report

              • Avatar kenB says:

                I think it’s revealing

                As another commentator is fond of saying, peace out bro.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                And peace be unto you.Report

              • Avatar John Howard Griffin says:

                It’s about just engaging with that old trope about walking a mile in another person’s shoes.

                Never criticize someone until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, you’re a mile away. And, you have their shoes.Report

              • Avatar James Hanley says:

                Heh, I’d forgotten that one.Report

        • Avatar M.A. says:

          It helps to have a very diverse crowd of friends; it helps to have been present when folks, bred on “Southern Values”, have felt it appropriate or acceptable to treat members of the friend group in an abusive or demeaning manner.

          It helps to have witnessed firsthand the sort of thing I find so offensive, to be able to see it through their eyes as it is occurring.

          There are many biases that exist in society. Many of them are harmful to one group or another.

          I posted this above but I’ll repost the link here: Unpacking the invisible backpack. Really read it. Think about it. Think about all the implicit assumptions that you can make, yourself, every day and then think about how NOT being able to make those assumptions might change your worldview, especially if not being able to make those assumptions happened during your formative, youthful years.

          Take the job market; look at a woman of any race, or a man of minority descent, trying to find a job. On the one hand they have the weight of history to show them that discrimination exists – in wages as well as just in hiring practices. On the other hand, they can view every day the GOP’s DARVO-fueled crusade about how sexual harassment law has “gone too far”, how wage discrimination against women “doesn’t really exist”, how “reverse discrimination” is a bigger problem (at least to the Southern Strategy political base) than the effects of 200 years of oppression and discrimination and the still-lingering racially-based job discrimination in the marketplace today.Report

          • Avatar MFarmer says:

            You are so right. I can’t tell you how frustrated I am to see the crusaders here in the south crusading from city to city with signs saying “women aren’t worth equal pay for equal work because they’re sissies” and “blacks shouldn’t make a lot of money because they will only waste it on dope” — it’s horrible to witness this crusade on a daily basis. These crusaders are picketing companies trying to get them to pay women less and to stop hiring so many minorities. They say enough is enough, give us whiteys a chance. I think it’s in the GOP platform now under Southern Strategy.Report

            • Admit it – you didn’t actually read the comment to which you were responding, did you?Report

              • Avatar MFarmer says:

                Yes, I read it, and it’s funny to me that it’s posted here. Maybe if he wants to do some good, go to a racist website — here he’s just posturing in self-righteousness and it’s funny. True courage. It’s a political statement of how he and his tribe are righteous and pure, while we all have unconsicious biases, balh, blah — if I hadn’t been in converstations like this since 1968 sitting at Roy Rogers smoking pot, I’d have a sophomoric feelly feely, but it’s a little old and self-serving at this point. You people amaze me at your hilarious seriousness you attach to conversations you then use as weapons when someone yawns or questions the motives. How dare someone tease about such a serious sentiment! How dare! Get over yourself Mark, you’re boring.Report

        • Avatar MFarmer says:

          “It’s not quite as easy as you think.”

          Yes, I know, society and media persecute people regularly for condemning racism. It’s awful. Anti-racists find it hard to get work in Hollywood.Report