Governor Romney and the Ladies Fair
If Republicans ever want to win the women vote, they really need to stop talking about women. They are just terrible at it.
One of the more surprising poll trends coming into last night’s debate was that Romney seemed to be picking up steam with women voters – and not simply because his ruggedly virile supply of cash and boy-making sperm make the ladies weak at the knees. Because of this unexpected trending, I had fully expected Team Romney to be preparing the Governor with one thought in mind: Misstep wherever you like on tax or foreign policy issues, just don’t put your foot in it on any of the women’s issues questions. When the inevitable women’s issue question came it was low hanging fruit, requiring but a quick and obvious answer. It should have been a cakewalk.
And yet as he answered with what was obviously a well coached and pre-canned response, Mitt Romney proved once again that whenever Republicans try to connect with women they invariably come off sounding condescending and chauvinistic – even when what they’re saying is factually undeniable.
Here was the question:
In what new ways do you intend to rectify the inequalities in the workplace, specifically regarding females making only 72 percent of what their male counterparts earn?
The obvious response – the only response for a conservative Republican – was to say some variation of this: “As a champion of the free market, I believe everyone should be paid exactly what their contributions are worth – no more, and no less. That should be just as true for women as it is for men, and discrimination should never be tolerated.” That’s all Romney had to say. Hell, that’s all Romney should have said. And yet, like a radio show host that just can’t leave well enough alone, Romney decided to swing for the fences:
Thank you. And important topic, and one which I learned a great deal about, particularly as I was serving as governor of my state, because I had the chance to pull together a cabinet and all the applicants seemed to be men.
And I — and I went to my staff, and I said, “How come all the people for these jobs are — are all men.” They said, “Well, these are the people that have the qualifications.” And I said, “Well, gosh, can’t we — can’t we find some — some women that are also qualified?”
And — and so we — we took a concerted effort to go out and find women who had backgrounds that could be qualified to become members of our cabinet.
I went to a number of women’s groups and said, “Can you help us find folks,” and they brought us whole binders full of women.
I was proud of the fact that after I staffed my Cabinet and my senior staff, that the University of New York in Albany did a survey of all 50 states, and concluded that mine had more women in senior leadership positions than any other state in America.
Now one of the reasons I was able to get so many good women to be part of that team was because of our recruiting effort. But number two, because I recognized that if you’re going to have women in the workforce that sometimes you need to be more flexible. My chief of staff, for instance, had two kids that were still in school.
She said, I can’t be here until 7 or 8 o’clock at night. I need to be able to get home at 5 o’clock so I can be there for making dinner for my kids and being with them when they get home from school. So we said fine. Let’s have a flexible schedule so you can have hours that work for you.
There are a lot of pundits that are giving Romney high praise for that answer (Andrew Sullivan called it Mitt’s “strongest” answer at the time), but just about all of them are men. I suspect that as the week goes on we will see that women found the answer to be condescending, and that what Romney’s team believed would bring him female votes will actually cost him some.
Let’s leave aside the fact that Mitt’s feel-good anecdote about being a champion of women didn’t actually happen (and that in fact he reduced the number of women in senior-level positions), and instead focus on what he said.
According to Mitt, while going through all of the applications for his cabinet[1] he noticed that there were no women. He immediately picked up the phone and called women’s groups to ask if they knew where he could find some qualified ladies.
If you are a man of a certain age, I suspect this answer sounds pretty good so far. Hey, he’s trying to find a decent woman, right? However, if you’re a woman I suspect the biggest takeaway is that the Governor and his transition team knew of stacks and stacks of men they thought were qualified to manage people and departments, but couldn’t think of one woman. If I’m a woman, that just sounds terrible.
Far worse was his talking about flextime. Again, if you’re a man of a certain age I imagine this answer sounded pitch perfect. After all, women like to be home with their kids, right?
It is absolutely true that flextime can rightly be perceived as a women’s economic issue. Child care issues sometimes demand that parents who might be able to work 40 hours a week can’t always work 9:00 to 5:00, and for them flextime is a Godsend. Because many mothers are single – and because, like it or not, in our culture it is still the expectation that in households with two working parents it should be the mother who bears child responsibilities – access to flextime actually does effect women disproportionately to men. However, the question Romney was asked didn’t have to do with workplace logistics, it had to do with workplace equality. Because of this, his response was especially egregious.
Despite what Romney suggests, the truth is that flextime isn’t really an issue for executives. Most higher paying positions are salaried, and as such are judged upon a specifically defined set of outcome criteria. They don’t need flextime, because flextime is basically built into their job. The kinds of positions that often require flextime are lower paying jobs such as administrative assistants, file clerks, receptionists and data input typists. So when answering a question about general female economic inequality in the workplace, Mitt inexplicably responded with an answer about administrative assistants, file clerks, receptionists and data input typists. Now, it is true that not everyone is keenly aware of who does and doesn’t need flextime. But you know what subset of voters is keenly aware of this? Women.
In addition, the unspoken assumption in Mitt’s response was that a male employee would not need to take care of children at home, but a female employee certainly would. Like many Republican responses to women’s issues, I know this chafed the very women it was intended to mollify. Plus, if there’s pushback from the Left on this it will invariably mean that conservative pundits and talk show hosts will go on the defensive and make arguments about why men really are different from women in the workplace. They just won’t be able to help themselves, and that hole they dig for themselves (and Mitt) will just keep getting deeper.
If Romney wants to court the female vote, he needs to keep it simple and direct, and not go off on these attempts to “connect” with women in a touchy-feely kind of way. It’s just not his strength, and it will hurt him far more than it will help him.
[1] Seriously? Going through the applications? Apparently in Massachusetts cabinet vacancies are simply employment opportunities you post on monster.com, not a team of experts hand-selected by the Governor.
This echoed my thoughts exactly. By attempting to reach women, he doubled-down on many of the things that are most inhibiting to women’s equality, particularly the societal assumption and pressure to “make dinner for the kids”.Report
I think that the President has less influence upon societal assumptions and cultural pressures than even the price of gas.Report
Oh, yes, submitted wholly. But he didn’t have to reaffirm those assumptions and pressures.Report
And if he ignores them, he gets seen as an out of touch Colbert stereotype. (e.g. “I don’t see gender”) Like I said, he can’t win with this.Report
Sure he could.
He could say that the demands on women often unfairly outweigh those on men. As such, this sometimes requires a different approach to recruiting, hiring, and retaining women. While it would be ideal if we could level the playing field outside of the workplace, for the time being we must do what we can to account for this unlevel playing field inside of it.
Going with , “Well, dem women need to get food on the table so how dey supposed to work?” was sub-ideal. And not even close.Report
He can’t win? What if he says, “Look, I was wrong when I opposed the Lily Leadbetter Act. It is a travesty that women doing equal work aren’t paid equally, and I have every intention of pursuing policy which rewards women for the work they do.” Maybe the Social Conservatives would have punished him but who else are they going to vote for?Report
I think equally effective was Romney’s trope that he would make the economy so strong that eventually employers would have to settle for women employees…Report
Hehe… that one does amuse me.Report
That was classic. Romney didn’t work with a lot of women at Bain. He probably didn’t work with a lot of minorities either. I get the impression he doesn’t seem all that comfortable outside his rich white guy universe.Report
Great post Tod and pretty much exactly what was going through my head as I listened to Romney. His answer just reinforced my belief that he does not care and does not have a clue as to what is important to women. I mean really they knew of NO women qualified for cabinet posts?! I think what that means is that Romney, and his apparently all male team, don’t believe that women are qualified for the job. It reads to me like he went searching for “token” women to put in his administration because well you know women should be home making dinner for the kids.Report
Of course it did give rise to a great meme one of my favorites http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc0mzdjv7v1rj8amio1_1280.pngReport
It’s crass to beat up on somebody for their problem, but sometimes it’s just too funny anyway:
https://ordinary-times.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Bill.jpg
(can’t wait to see the mememashup version of this with Hillarytexts).Report
you mean like this ? http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/texting-hillary-binders-full-of-women.jpegReport
like this:
https://ordinary-times.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/bill-hillary.jpgReport
hee hee naughty chairReport
that one’s good.Report
Thanks, I made it myself 🙂Report
This, my friends, is why the democrats are winning.
http://images.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=920&q=malarkey&oq=malarkey&gs_l=img.3..0l7j0i24l3.1917.3276.0.3532.8.7.0.1.1.0.65.400.7.7.0…0.0…1ac.1.CvM8Z0LEANY
😉 just some more examples.Report
Romney and his Bain colleagues worked and lived in Boston for many years. They were not conversant with their peers at other financial institutions in one of America’s largest and wealthiest cities? The Boston-based banks had no senior women executives or board members that they had heard of? The Boston Chamber of Commerce had no women in executive positions or elected to its board of directors? There were no private or family-owned regional companies in Boston that were led by women? Bain didn’t keep unofficial, informal tabs on any women in the financial services sector who were recruitment targets by Bain? I don’t believe it.Report
When Romney hires people that he already knows, he hires political crony connected insider hacks. When Romney casts a wider net for hiring, he’s just wrong.Report
Please read what I actually wrote, Kolohe. Romney talked as though women were some group he’d never had contact with when in fact if he’d been even half the great businessman he’s supposed to be he would have been aware of women in the financial sector (that is, his peer group) in the city where he lived and did business. So either he lied again and pulled the binder story out of the dim recesses of his memory (thinking no doubt that this would really impress the chicks) or he was so insulated at Bain that he literally didn’t know anything about his business competitors and their senior executives. Either way he stepped on his tongue again.
And of course he hired political croney connected insider hacks. They all do. Stop being so defensive about the guy. You and Density Duck are not doing Romney any favours with this annoying whine.Report
I’m just looking forward to 2015 when Great White Hope
CarcettiLittlefingerO’Malley has to defend all this sort of stuff from the Clinton campaign. Like last timeReportWhat on earth are you talking about?Report
“if you’re a woman I suspect the biggest takeaway is that the Governor and his transition team knew of stacks and stacks of men they thought were qualified to manage people and departments, but couldn’t think of one woman. ”
And that dirty bastard proceeded to go and ask for help finding some. I mean, the unbelievable cheek of that man, to admit that this was an area where he didn’t have much knowledge; the sheer gall of actually recognizing a problem and looking for guidance about solving it.
I mean, far better if he’d just bulled ahead, saying “of course there ain’t no fillies for the job, they’re all back home raisin’ kids just like they’re s’pose ta be!” Because then he wouldn’t be so disingenuously acting like he cared, right? (I mean, it’s obvious that that lying sack of lying lies couldn’t possibly actually care.)Report
Asking is an acceptable option if you don’t have a better option.
That he didn’t have a better option is troubling.
This man worked in business for how long? He couldn’t think of a single qualified woman he could select for his cabinet?Report
Beth Myers, Romney’s chief of staff, had worked on his campaign. This is Romney; he lies even when the truth would help him.Report
owch. that’s… that’s just brutally dumb. D.U.M.B.Report
People that you bring in to run the campaign are generally not the people you bring into run the government. David Plouffe for instance never worked directly for the current administration (only part time as an outside consultant) and Axelrod only did for a short time and then only as a political adviser.
But facts don’t matter and I’m just being whiny.Report
Facts DO matter and your defense of Romney would be better if you started using them. However points for recognizing that you’re being whiny. Now stop twisting people’s words around and come up with a rational defense.Report
Hiring trolls as cabinet secretaries seems like a poor idea, yes.
Mark Penn was all through Clinton’s business, for a long long time.Report
“Wow, I had to do this expensive, time-consuming, high-powered search to find any qualified women, and the whole time there you were in the next office over. Who would have thunk it?”Report
Yeah, asking is better than ignoring the issue, but there’s an element of wearing a condom while teaching to it.
http://xkcd.com/463/Report
Is it just me, or is anyone else kinda offended that he needed to go to women’s groups?
I’m sorry, but where I’m from, you call in subject matter experts. You want the best
negotiator, you pull in ten negotiators, and you Find The Best One.
He wasn’t (I don’t think) trying for The Best Woman. Or the most Feminist one.
Condi Rice didn’t get pulled out of no NOW binder.Report
Amen to that.
Have to say that it was sort of funny watching a republican spout one of the worst affirmative action tales ever.Report
Let me share a personal anecdote that I think is related…
My school makes a big deal about Halloween. Last year, I noticed a lot of families opted to keep their children home on this day as they didn’t recognize the holiday or they did but did not celebrate it the way our school did. The families that I knew that did this were all African or African-American. I was confused and a bit concerned about this. A wondered if there were subcultures within the black community that did not recognize Halloween and if this was something that ought to make us reconsider our celebration. But I didn’t know for sure.
Fortunately, I had made close acquaintance with a woman who was both a parent in the school and an educator herself (at a different school) and whose family was among those who did not celebrate the holiday. I reached out to her, shared my observations, and asked her help on better understanding the issue. It turns out that the difference was more along religious lines than racial lines.
Regardless, I think it would have looked bad if I, the “Coordinator for Diversity and Inclusion” in my school, had to reach out to a group like the local chapter of the NAACP to get this question answered. How qualified could I be for the position if I didn’t know enough black folks personally and well-enough that I could first ask them?
How qualified to be President, how qualified to address women’s issues can someone be if they and their underlings can’t think of a single qualified woman?Report
This speaks more to his history as a businessman than anything else.
He went through his businessland as a businessman and didn’t see this – you know, as a supposed businessleader and all that – until he left business for politics.
What, in all his years at Bain, taking over other companies and whatnot, he never had a case where he had to make a decision about a company policy and some woman executive wanting to take longer for maternity? He never thought of this as a problem or an issue or even noticed it until he got into politics?Report
Bain was a pretty female-free universe. Pretty sure Mitt didn’t have a problem with it.Report
Actually, no. The group of women, MassGAP, had begun putting together the ‘binder’ of women with skills for cabinet-level positions in the State Government before the election.
They gave Romney the binder.
And by the end of his term, the numbers of women in executive positions had declined to levels lower then when he was sworn in.
Now I’m might glad he did opt to use that binder. But he didn’t recognize there was a problem, he was told — by women — that there was a problem. And he put women in charge of departments he felt ‘suitable’ for women, not departments he thought important.Report
DD–Romney’s binder gaffe was embedded in a big fat Romney lie. He didn’t actually request a list of qualified female candidates: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/17/romney-binders-full-of-women_n_1974092.html
So, not only did he not know of one women he could invite to be part of his administration, but also the only reason he got his “binder of women” was someone else provided it. He’s clueless.Report
From the National Review piece Tod links to:
the only 40-year-old woman Jack Nicholson has ever seen naked is Kathy Bates in that horrific hot-tub scene (emphasis added).
Tod is right, Republicans. Shut up, now, while there still might be a few women without cable, cell phones, or mail service who don’t know exactly what you think of then.Report
No slander of Kathy Bates should ever be tolerated. That woman is a national treasure.Report
This is what I mean when I say this question was a classic Ackbarian trap.
Romney is going to receive no credit for anything he said or did.
The President receives no blame for doing only doing the bare minimum 15 pieces of flair on his first day of office, and discussing Pell Grants.Report
Can you explain what he deserves credit for?Report
see the sub thread starting here: https://ordinary-times.com/blog/2012/10/town-hall-debate-ten-points/#comment-390523Report
I don’t necessarily agree. I think in political debates, you *want* questions that force you to tackle in-the-room elephants.
For example, the two most obviously slighted questions of the night were the one (to Obama) saying “I voted for you 4 years ago, I’m very disappointed, why should I even consider voting for your now?” and the one (to Romney) saying “A whole bunch of this mess is from before Obama, so how do I know you’re not the next Bush?”
Each guy used the questions to(somewhat) separate themselves from story lines that made them look bad, and each came off looking stronger because of it. (In fact, I though the “Here’s why I’m not Bush” answer was by far Romney’s strongest of the night, and was the most compelling reason he gave all night to consider voting for him.)Report
Romney is going to receive no credit for anything he said or did.
Fishing fact checkers! Why can’t they just be gentlemen and take him at his word?Report
Speaking as a female, Romney deserves no credit for this.
Honestly, there wasn’t one intelligent capable woman on his campaign staff? Not one that he’d ever noticed in all his years in business that he might consider tapping for a cabinet post?
And while I, as a parent, think flextime is important, guess what? My husband is the one who gets home in time to make dinner. Obama’s reply that this isn’t a women’s issue but a family issue was dead on target. He didn’t need more than that to bring the contrast home.
Oh, and Mitt didn’t actually answer the question. What would he do to rectify the pay gap? Apparently nothing. Somehow, magically (because govt doesn’t create jobs!), the economy will become so strong once he’s elected that business will be desperate for workers and therefore willing to bend to ‘lady issues’ like fair pay and reasonable work hours.
Argh. I wasn’t planning on voting for him anyway, but this makes me want to go out and canvas for Obama.Report
Excellent.
The strong position for women would be not only stressing the importance of flex time, but stressing how important it is for all parents. Men do the child-care thing, too. They go to soccer games and plays and pick kids up from music lessons. They stay home with sick kids. Heck, some of them are single parents, raising the children without a mom in the house at all.
Sometimes, feminism means pushing for equal rights for men, even when they don’t realize the need them.Report
Amen, sister!Report
Most excellent points, Bookdragon and zic.Report
Do you really want to make Office Space references in support of candidate Bill Lumbergh?Report
Apparently it’s not even good enough to stop being wrong; you’re now required to never have been wrong in the first place.Report
Romney botched this question just as badly as all the others. He lost all his momentum in my opinion last night. I cannot imagine voting for this guy.
The interesting thing is that he could never have told the truth, which is that on the whole women are paid fairly but that they have different career goals, interests, skills, work habits, tradeoffs and risk tolerances.Report
And they throw like girls!Report
Hey ladies, good news! Roger says you’re getting paid fairly and that it’s your own damned fault when you’re getting paid less for doing the same work!Report
Yeah, the fact that guys with kids don’t get mommy-tracked is obviously just women’s own fault for having the bad judgment to be born with XX chromosomes.
::rolls eyes::
Conservatives really are just bad at this.Report
I think there is two things at play…
Looking at women’s aggregate salaries and men’s aggregate salaries runs into the very issues that Roger rightly highlights.
But they cannot explain the entirety of the gap that exists between men and women who do the same job, with the same credentials and same experience.
So, really, it depends on what you’re looking at. Will the average female salary equal the average male salary? Not likely. But should male and female CEOs of Fortune 500 companies have great disparities in their pay? No.Report
Kazzy,
Point of order: why would we ever, EVER, compare salaries in a general way? Why wouldn’t we compare within professions between similar people?Report
Unless they are playing loose with their language, I often here people say that women, on average, earn X% of men. If they are talking about position specific averages, I stand corrected. But it doesn’t always appear that way.Report
Sam and Bookdragon,
Did you even read the question above that was asked of Romney that I am responding to? It is exactly as Kazzy states.
The facts reveal that women work substantially fewer hours than men. They choose substantially different professions. They tend to work indoors. They rarely ever choose hazardous, dangerous jobs (I believe the work fatality stats are over ten times higher for men). Finally, they tend to prioritize other things other than work, especially as they age (and who can argue with that, seems to me they are choosing right, no?) .
When you adjust for these factors, there is no wage differential, indeed, younger professional women tend to make more than men.
And for the record, Bookdragon, people who disagree with you are not necessarily “conservatives”, they may just be better informed. I am not really sure of the latter, but I clearly am not the former.Report
You’re comparing unlike people in unlike professions and then dismissing the complaint. Compare like people within like professions and then get back to me.Report
See my comment below. 2/3 of the wage disparity is due to occupational segregation. Which is most of Roger’s point.Report
So as long as the pay-gap is only 1/3 of what some people argue it is, it’s okay? My point is that if women are being paid less than men for the same work, then there is a serious problem. Research like the link I’ve provided elsewhere – in which male and female scientists think it makes more sense to pay the same applicant more money if they have a male name – underscore the point I’m trying to make.Report
No, the other 1/3 is mostly firm sex segregation (e.g., men are more likely to work in HQs), which is not the point Roger was making. It’s not at all clear whether there is a persistent within-job pay gap of any kind.Report
I’ll see if I can find it, but there were some interesting numbers put forth in the medical profession that demonstrated a pay difference not accounted for by specialty and hours worked. Maybe there was some other factor at work.Report
Stuff like this is obviously tangential, but still seems like it needs to be addressed:
http://catalyst.org/publication/459/2010-catalyst-census-fortune-500-women-executive-officers-and-top-earnersReport
“So as long as the pay-gap is only 1/3 of what some people argue it is, it’s okay? ”
A statistic a woman gives at a debate is only required to be 70% as accurate as a man’s.Report
and a preemptiveReport
Roger,
Do you have numbers to back up the factors you outline explaining 100% of the gap?Report
I also think it is worthwhile to examine how many of those factors are ones that women naturally choose and how much are the result of larger forces.
Using child rearing as an example, how much of the decision to stay home and raise children is one that women would make voluntarily in a vacuum and how much is because of broader social pressures (including a history of getting less pay)? I’m confident it is a “both/and” situation but I don’t know to begin dividing the pie.Report
This is rather clearly the larger issue, and it’s much harder to figure out how to use policy to correct it. Affirmative action helps, but early education and a general changing of cultural norms would be far more effective.Report
As JB said above, there is little to nothing POTUS can do about the *real* issue.Report
Which is not to say that he shouldn’t say something about it. In fact, I think you can easily make an intellectual case that a great deal of sex segregation in jobs is due to the distribution of domestic responsibilities, that it would be a good idea for us to think about fixing that distribution in our own lives, and that it’s not the FBI’s job to make husbands do housework or pick the kids up from school.
The problem, of course, is that Democrats don’t want to hear about the first part, Republicans don’t want to hear about the second part, and no presidential candidate is non-robotic enough to get anyone to laugh at the third part.Report
Oh, yea. The President can prove a powerful symbol. But he can’t push legislation or enact an executive order to shift societal norms.
I suppose we could elect a female POTUS. That might move some needles.Report
When was the last time that a President successfully pushed for the changing of cultural norms (as opposed to switching sides when opinion polls indicated that such would be a smart move)?Report
Actually, there was a decent amount of evidence that Obama supporting gay marriage actually moved the needle among black people by a heavy chunk (basically changing it from 40-60 opposition to 55-45 favorability).Report
See my comment immediately above.
To your specific question, though, I can’t see how it matters. We should have presidential candidates who don’t lie, who admit the limitations of their power, and who are especially willing to take moral stands on issues where they believe their base is wrong.
That we don’t have such candidates and never actually will doesn’t really detract from the argument.Report
women who make more money than their husbands do less housework.Report
For this to be true, there would have to be evidence that it’s only women who’ve opted for a child-rearing break that are paid less; and women in similar positions who’ve not had children would show no pay gap.
I could be wrong here, but I’ve certainly never heard of a study demonstrating this. Have you?
But I have had the experience of being paid less then men I supervised (also a violation of state law, union rules, and federal law,) and when I asked why, was told ‘they have families.’ Those men I supervised where hired on the same day as I was, and had less experience. Go figure. They had families; so me, a woman without a child at the time, should get paid less.Report
that’s when you walk.Report
No. I got a big raise. Doubled what they were legally required, since they did not want me to walk, since I was very, very able.Report
zic rules. Good for you.Report
and this is why zic is happy, and there’s a whole boatload of folks without chutzpah who aren’t. 😉Report
Friend passes this along:
Link
She says it’s the canonical finding in the field.Report
Kazzy,
Here is a great place to start.
http://www.aei-ideas.org/2011/04/some-reactions-to-equal-pay-day/
And…
http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/04/gender-wage-gap-gender-hours-gap/
From there if you search GENDER you will find a plethora of studies, facts, charts and such on hours worked, occupations chosen and such. Perry brings this up as a regular topic.
I agree with Ryan’s professor.Report
Thanks, Roger. To what extent do you think the self-selection is a function of societal norms, pressures, or segregation (some of which may no longer be active but which still resonates via legacy)?
In a nutshell, do women tend to choose to teach because there is something about women that makes them want to teach or because spciety sends a message that that is a more appropriate career for them? Again, both/and is my guess.Report
I agree it is a bit of both. I will say that women are different, and I really, really respect balance in one’s life. Most of the really successful people I know were screwed up human beings. I’ve seen the top of the corporate ladder, and it is not someplace a balanced person with a family and normal personality would ever want to be. Kind of like politics.Report
*snort* “you want how many goats? WHERE?”Report
You know, I almost would have apologized, except that I read further and saw that your basis was AEI studies. Somehow a conservative think tank doesn’t strike me as an impartial source (especially given some of the other articles on that site).
For myself, I have seen the difference in engineering – a more than full-time profession in which I have an advanced degree. I’m not even sure it’s conscious discrimination so much as a boy’s club atmosphere and the impression that women ‘just don’t look like engineers’, so while we get put on display when someone wants to score diversity points, we don’t tend to get the same opportunities for networking and advancement.Report
Actually the links take you to studies and data from the labor department, the Wall Street Journal the Bureau of Labor statistics and so forth. The blog was originally Mark Perry’s, but last month it was absorbed by AEI, of which Mark is a member.
If you know of problems with the data please share.Report
Bookdragon,
I get your hesitation there, but the AEI report was by Mark Perry, who is a fine economist, and not a political axe-grinder.Report
When I was in college in the 80s, discrepancy between men and women at the executive level was explained in terms of the rat moving through the snake in a way I found quite compelling.
The sex of an executive no longer mattered, conservatives argued, but because it had mattered for so long it was going to take a decade or so for young women to be properly educated, and for women in the workforce to gain the experience their male counterparts had. By the mid-90s everything would be equal.
That argument made a lot of sense to me. So too, I must confess, have all of the subsequent arguments. They’re all quite logical.
Still, a generation later it’s hard not to shake the growing sense that there’s something else at play here.Report
Of course something else is going on here: systemic sexism.
How else to explain a finding like this: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/09/21/study-offers-new-evidence-scientists-are-biased-against-womenReport
Sam,
On a lighter note, if you combine the two recent posts, we have proof sciences and social sciences are overwhelmingly dominated by the left, and your study that scientists are chauvinist pigs, my conclusion is that those on the left are chauvinist pigs. Not sure if my Logic teacher would approve though … But he was probably a leftie too.
Seriously though. My experience with large firms is that the HR department of a larger company makes a living by ensuring these types of biases do not occur. Their jobs depend upon building systemic checks and balances avoiding these types of biases.
The other check on it is free market greed. If women were paid systemically less for the same productivity, I would invest in a company which offered to only recruit women, as they can be hired easier by giving them a raise up to the going mans rate. This strategy would of course lead to the demise of any true wage gap.Report
*snort* you haven’t noticed that there are entire factories employing only women?
They pay lower than men,too.Report
There you go, looking at facts and evidence and drawing conclusions.
See, this is why conservatives hate science.Report
It’s because women may not have some of the necessities to be, let’s say, an executive vice president, or, perhaps, a CEO.Report
What? Our crashing and ending the season 8 games behind you wasn’t enough? You had to link to this memory as well?
You are a monster, sir. A monster.Report
In case you were going to go on to quote Joseph Welch: Nope. None.Report
I think it is also because as you go higher and higher in the corporate world, your advancement becomes less and less about objective metrics and more and more about people skills and networking.
Which one would think would favor women, except that most corporations have developed a fraternity culture that emphasizes the social skills that men possess. When companies are looking to promote, the man who fits in is likely to be promoted above the woman who does’t.Report
My good friend, a Harvard demographer, says:
“In a nutshell, there is not much evidence of within job pay discrim. Gap is 25-30% ish, 2/3 of which is due to occupational sex seg, most of rest to firm sex seg.”
She said that in a text message, which is why it appears the way it does.Report
What is firm sex seg?Report
One of the lesser-known side effects of viagra.Report
It’s the idea that men and women tend to work in different kinds of firms, even within an occupation. For instance, men tend to work in HQs more than women do, and HQs tend to be where there is more room for advancement. My friend posits that this may be due to the larger cultural practice of women being “tied-movers” in couples (i.e., husband moves for a new job, wife moves and has to find a job in the area).Report
That is, the overall point is that if you randomly select a man and a woman who make different amounts of money, it’s overwhelmingly likely that the difference is due to the kind of jobs they have, and if they have the same kind of job, it’s because they work in different firms. There is very little evidence that it’s because of sex discrimination at the place they work.
Which is not to say that sex discrimination is nonexistent or tolerable, merely that we don’t have good evidence of its pervasiveness.
And it certainly doesn’t answer the larger cultural observation that men and women choose different occupations and different firms for a panoply of reasons, at least some of which are surely due to sex discrimination.Report
If the occupational death and injury stats for men and women were reversed we’d see lot of handwringing about discrimination in job safety.Report
“Why do I always finish first? Dude, my secret is to disable that fishing interlock.”Report
“That fishing interlock”
You’re a DIII college hockey fan, too?
(I don’t really expect anyone here to get that, but all my love to anyone who does w/o googling.)Report
I’m six three and that was way over my head.Report
Yeah, that is way off my radar.Report
Unless you’re making the Urdu-Slovak pun on “entulrik” I have no clue.Report
Here’s the thing that I keep thinking- they keep trying to sell Romney as this high-powered corporate boss archetype and, aside from the fact that he keeps coming off as Bill Lumbergh, don’t a lot, maybe most people, kind of hate their boss?Report
I think they keep trying to sell him as someone else’s boss.Report
The ur-boss.Report
Capo di tutti capi?Report
The new boss, Who is not appreciably different from the old boss.Report
For the ladies, Obama says, “cover their reproductive health-care costs.” Not just contraception, but preventive screenings.
Now apparently this is controversial for those withe certain religious beliefs. I presume those same folk are solidly pro-life. Yet it’s the most pro-life actions a president has taken. Come to find out, when women don’t have to pay out-of-pocket for contraception, they have fewer abortions.
Romney, on the other hand, belongs to a church where every member who happens to be male is a member of the priesthood. And no woman need apply.
For the ladies, and the men who love them as partners, not chattel, who’s got your back?Report
“The obvious response – the only response for a conservative Republican – was to say some variation of this: “As a champion of the free market, I believe everyone should be paid exactly what their contributions are worth – no more, and no less. That should be just as true for women as it is for men, and discrimination should never be tolerated.”
I would have also accepted “The study was bogus and that has been well documented” but that wouldn’t have been the “best” answer, would it?Report