Modernity, Christianity and Islam

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Will

Will writes from Washington, D.C. (well, Arlington, Virginia). You can reach him at willblogcorrespondence at gmail dot com.

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  1. Avatar Murali
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    says:

    Will, nice post. What would your view of non-abrahamic faiths and modernity be? Are you more Tocqueville, who thought that Hindus could never be made fit for modern republican society, or John Adams who thought that Hindus were just as good as people of any other faith to be citizens in a republic?Report

    • Avatar Will in reply to Murali
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      To be honest, Murali, I know very little about non-Abrahamic faiths. But I suspect that any religion with a reasonably varied intellectual tradition can find justifications for embracing liberalism and modernity.

      As for Hinduism, I could see how the caste system would seem incompatible with democracy. But recent history suggests that the Indians have made it work.Report

  2. Avatar Scott
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    says:

    Maybe so, but how many innocents will have to die in the mean time while they work out their problems?Report

    • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Scott
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      says:

      One might be tempted to point out that post-Christianity had a death toll with 9-digits despite itself.

      One reckons that the whole “you’re doing it wrong!” thing is unlikely to result with flowers strewn at our feet.Report

      • Avatar Scott in reply to Jaybird
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        Yes but Christianity didn’t use automatic weapons, explosives or planes flown into buildings.

        I could care less if the Taliban or other Muslims want to want to live in a medieval type theocracy, however I do take umbridge when they attack us.Report

        • Avatar greginak in reply to Scott
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          so you’re not familar with the history of warfare in Christian Europe. All the nations that marched off to war in WW1 thought God was on their side and cheering them on.Report

          • Avatar Scott in reply to greginak
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            Are you really that desperate for a response to make that pathetic comparison?Report

            • Avatar greginak in reply to Scott
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              i don’t understand how it is desperate to point out that pious Christian nations have fought horrendous bloody wars, often with other pious Christian nations. sometimes pious Christian nations have used their faith as a key to subjugating other non-Christian peoples.Report

              • Avatar Scott in reply to greginak
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                Since you insist on being dense, I guess I’ll humor you. WW1 was fought over secular causes. Both sides may have claimed that God was on their side but neither went to war to convert the other by force or restore true Christianity.

                If Muslims need to mend their theological differences, great. It is just that it is much easier to kill large numbers of people with modern weapons while they are doing it.Report

              • Avatar Roque Nuevo in reply to greginak
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                Why not just go all out and throw the Conquest of Mexico or the Inquisition in our faces? Or would that be too much even for you?Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Roque Nuevo
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                says:

                just because there is a secular cause for a war does not mean in any mean that relgion didn’t play a part if leading to that war. if a side feels God is on their side they might feel bolder about pushing secular aims.

                in the most direct sense, the brits, french and germans ( among many others) who relentlessly mowed each other down with machine guns in all those muddy fields in WW1 were praying to the same God and sure that he was with them.

                While AQ certainly is religiously inspired why do you assume they do not have any secular goals. The whole new Caliphate thing they seem to want sounds sort of like a new empire. there is simply no strict line between secular and religious motivations. Hamas and Hezbollah certainly have secular aims along with their religious inspirations. Religion and the secular intertwine.Report

              • Avatar Cascadian in reply to greginak
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                says:

                In the context of this post, let’s just say that even if religion can at some point find an uneasy truth with modernity, it’s not necessary or helpful to modernity. It’s not exactly as if Christianity or any other major faith is helping the process. And yes, Islam is even further behind with honor killings and all.Report

              • Avatar Scott in reply to greginak
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                says:

                Now you are reaching. Why not just admit that WW1 was bad example and cut your losses?Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Scott
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                because its not a bad example, its just one of many good examples.Report

              • Avatar Roque Nuevo in reply to greginak
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                says:

                greginak misses the point, either on purpose (because he’s following the liberal line slavishly, as is his wont) or not (because he’s around seventeen years old): Christians do not follow a doctrine like jihad, which mandates eternal war with unbelievers with the sole purpose of converting unbelievers to their so-called faith. Only Muslims do that.

                Aside from that small difference, the two so-called faiths are alike. For example, football teams, both the home and away teams, will pray to their so-called god for victory over the other, which is praying to the same god. There’s simply no comparison to Islamic radicalism here, or anywhere in the so-called Christian world.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Roque Nuevo
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                RN- classy as always.

                yes jihad is an Islamic concept. so does that negate the blood that has been spilled in the name of Christianity? I don’t see how that is. Christian faith was intimatly tied to the horrors visited upon native peoples by imperialist Christians. Anti-semitism was strong far before the Nazi’s. and of course it would be useless to point out that Jihad has more then one defintion or way of practicing it.

                Any religion can be a force of kindness and love or hatred and violence.Report

              • Avatar Roque Nuevo in reply to greginak
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                says:

                greginak puerile as always: “Any religion can be a force of kindness and love or hatred and violence.”

                I guess I’, stumped now!Report

              • Avatar JosephFM in reply to Roque Nuevo
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                says:

                The Inquisition, actually, would be a relevant comparison.

                This entire line of argument is stupid, though. When people are determined to slaughter others, they’ll take any justification they can.Report

              • Avatar Roque Nuevo in reply to JosephFM
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                says:

                The Inquisition is not relevant. It happened in the Middle Ages. Since then, we’ve seen, for example, the Treaty of Westphalia, which put an end to religous wars in Europe. That was in 1637 (or thereabouts).

                But if you want to compare medieval Christianity with today’s Islam, fine with me. That will be more accurate. And that’s the whole problem with today’s Islam: it hasn’t evolved; it has regressed, if one believes all the propaganda about all their amazing advances in science and philosophy during the Middle Ages. They had “advanced” to where Europe was in the late Renaissance way before Europe’s late Renaissance. But now they’re back to where Europe was in the eleventh century.Report

              • Avatar JosephFM in reply to Roque Nuevo
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                That was actually my point, yes.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to greginak
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                Yes, but the whole “pious” thing hasn’t quite achieved the body count that “post-Christian” managed.

                I wonder if “post-Islamic” will not have similar “success”.Report

              • Avatar JosephFM in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Isn’t that mostly a matter of technology though?

                How many kings would have done exactly what Hitler did given the tools to do it?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to JosephFM
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                I don’t know.

                Is there a relationship between a society becoming somewhat Post-(religion) and the ability to develop really nutty weapons?Report

              • Avatar Scott in reply to JosephFM
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                Probably several. I agree that technology is certainly a important factor which is why Islam getting itself out its medieval mindset while armed with modern weapons will be so dangerous.Report

              • Avatar Cascadian in reply to JosephFM
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                says:

                The Christians in Rwanda used machetes for the most part.Report

        • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Scott
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          says:

          “Yes but Christianity didn’t use automatic weapons, explosives or planes flown into buildings.”

          I specifically said *POST*-Christianity. And, indeed, automatic weapons and explosives were used. While there were fewer planes flown into buildings (LOOK OUT PRESIDENT CLINTON!!!), there were, in fact, atomic bombs used.

          I don’t know that post-Islamic culture will be all beer and skittles.Report

        • Avatar JosephFM in reply to Scott
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          Right, uh, cause they didn’t exist yet.Report

  3. Avatar Jaybird
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    “Over the next few decades, it will not surprise me if major Muslim leaders begin emphasizing how Islam preserved the works of great philosophers and fostered scientific learning throughout the Middle Ages as evidence of their faith’s integral relationship with science and modernity. In fact, it’s already pretty common to hear similar talking points from moderate Islamic leaders in the United States and Europe.”

    One would think that such would have shown up in the immediate aftermath of the whole Rushdie incident.

    If there were a better time in the last 20 years, I can’t think of what it would be.Report

  4. Avatar Roque Nuevo
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    says:

    If the Christian experience teaches us anything, however, it’s that the fluidity of historical interpretation and theology can open up space for liberalizing movements to take hold within a major Abrahamic faith.

    What on Earth does the above even mean?

    Over the next few decades, it will not surprise me if major Muslim leaders begin emphasizing how Islam preserved the works of great philosophers and fostered scientific learning throughout the Middle Ages as evidence of their faith’s integral relationship with science and modernity.

    1.-Whether this new, happy future happens or not depends on whether we win or lose the war against jihadist Islam.
    2.-Islamic scholars may have “fostered scientific learning throughout the Middle Ages,” but it was not with anything like the scientific spirit as we understand it.

    In fact, it’s already pretty common to hear similar talking points from moderate Islamic leaders in the United States and Europe.

    1.-What’s a “moderate Islamic leader” and how would he (using the masculine pronoun is not a simple convention here) differ from his opposite (a radical/fundamentalist/neo fundamentalist [Whatever that means]?)
    2.-What “talking points” do you mean? The “integral relationship” between Islam and science, etc. etc.? Don’t be silly!Report

    • Avatar Will in reply to Roque Nuevo
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      Roque Nuevo –

      I’m suggesting that historical events and certain strains of Muslim theology can be refashioned into a plausible justification for liberal Islamic reform.Report

      • Avatar Roque Nuevo in reply to Will
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        “Can be” is too vague to be of any use at all.

        In spite of everything, you may want to read Bassam Tibbi. He’s no “Islamic leader” (moderate or not)–he’s an academic– but his defense of Islamic liberalization is worth reading if only to induce the proper pessimistic frame of mind in considering the topic. His liberalism makes the distance between him and mainstream Islam looks like the chasm it is.Report

  5. Avatar greginak
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    says:

    or one could wonder when a certain sub-group of Christians will learn to become civilized.

    http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/11/16/biblical-anti-obama-slogan-use-of-psalm-1098-funny-or-sinister/Report

    • Avatar Roque Nuevo in reply to greginak
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      says:

      This article is about using a Psalm as a bumper sticker to attack Obama. It says something like, “Your days are numbered.” There is simply nothing sinister about this at all, much less what greginak imagines. He should just grow up.Report

    • Avatar Scott in reply to greginak
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      says:

      How is this Psalm any more sinister than the liberals who had their myriad of countdown calenders counting down the number of days until Bush left office?Report

    • Avatar Jaybird in reply to greginak
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      If all we had to worry about was folks holding up signs, we wouldn’t have any worries at all.Report

      • Avatar Scott in reply to Jaybird
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        What do “we” have to worry about, pray tell?Report

        • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Scott
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          People putting signs down.Report

          • Avatar Scott in reply to Jaybird
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            says:

            Oh, you must be talking about the right-wing violence that Nancy Pelosi is convinced is about to break out.Report

            • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Scott
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              I was actually talking about how worrying about people having signs and bumper stickers is a trivial worry.

              I believe that I said as much in my original comment.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                wow what a comprehensive reading comprehension fail. people can put whatever they want on themselves,but it is clear the Psalm is talking about praying for the death of an evil man and sorrow on his family. thats a bit more then just waiting for a term to end.

                I have criticized lib’s and D’s plenty although i am liberal. Scott and RN: reflexine idealogy is tiresome and goes nowhere.

                jay, this isn’t about free speech, they can do whatever they want, but at some point can’t you admit that somethings that people say are over the top. Is that ever possible?Report

              • Avatar Scott in reply to greginak
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                Greg:
                Ah yes, the old when the left says it, it is healthy free speech and then when the right does it it is racist hate speech. Yes speech can be “over the top” but usually only when it incites people to violence, which I guess is all the time if you are Nancy Pelosi talking about Beck or Rush.Report

              • Avatar greginak in reply to Scott
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                good thing i never said that. my point of throwing up the link in this post was to suggest that not all people of any faith are good or evil or anything else.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to greginak
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                says:

                I have *ZERO* problem with people praying for anything at all… even for the death of people they hate.

                *NONE*.

                It’s when they stop praying that I begin to worry.

                “but at some point can’t you admit that somethings that people say are over the top.”

                Here’s an example of something that I consider over the top:

                “I don’t like what those people are saying. Something ought to be done.”Report

  6. Avatar Jon
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    says:

    Like for Pagden, Davies’ article seems weird to me. He seems to me to be starting looking for a magic moment that wasn’t there. Human progress, though miraculous if compared to its start, was actually incremental. The Web and blogs weren’t suddenly revealed wisdom during our lifetimes, but were worked on and used exponentially more and more over years. Nor is the advent of modernity something to care about, because “modern” is an arbitrary label given by historians. And, I bet very few classical liberal scholars believe in European exceptionalism, no matter how much he wants the straw man.

    Goldstone’s is much better, but gets wrong the specialness of modernity, but in a different way. Classical Greeks were 2/3 of the way to the scientific method, and did remarkable work that was stopped by the Roman conquest, and especially Caesar’s hackery of the Roman Constitution to absolute monarchy. And, Athenian citizenship was more open than American citizenship at our start, allowing the poor to vote.

    In fact, Muslims were generally ahead of Christians for their first few centuries – Constantinople was taken by Ottomans with cannon Rome didn’t have and refused to treat a Christian engineer well enough to get. Most Muslim societies were far more religiously tolerant for centuries than Western Europe, where being even the wrong kind of Christian would get you killed. Mohammed’s early successors as rulers were chosen by vote. The Ottoman Empire had checks and balances and was primarily secular in culture. Of course, now the shoe’s on the other foot to many states in the same region, though not so much to the many in democracies.Report

    • Avatar Alex Knapp in reply to Jon
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      That is absolutely, 100% correct. In fact, I think a more interesting question is: why did Islamic countries STOP being modern?

      It’s also worth mentioning that it was contact with Muslims vis a vis the Crusades that introduced Europeans to modern ideas, particularly the scientific method, as well as writings by the Greeks and Romans that hadn’t been preserved by the Church for one reason or another.

      And let’s not forget the influence of China, especially under Mongol rule, which spurred a number of both political and scientific developments that ended up influencing modern Europe.Report

    • Avatar Mr. Prosser in reply to Jon
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      True, the Greeks were on their way but were still an oligarchy. A poor man in Athens could vote as long as: 1. He was Athenian. 2. He could afford his weapons. 3. He was male. 4. He was not a slave. Beyond that it is my opinion religion is used to maintain any secular power structure and that includes the Romans who made worship of the state mandatory, Constantine and all European leaders up to the Tudors (Henry wasn’t modern so much as seeking a way to survive) and beyond who found the Christian church a solid ally and those Eastern governments which found Islam a handy system to keep most citizens (the non-elite) illiterate or conversant only in religious writings. Modernity only seems to come from from the ability to get out of the prevailing cultural milieu.Report

  7. Avatar Bob Cheeks
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    says:

    Perhaps this interesting question deserves a wider (if not deeper) analysis.
    Since the rise of the modern ideological state in the 19th and 20th centuries resulted in the slaughter of 150 million or so! This human abattoir, and the insuing philosophical, religious, political, and cultural disorder, was the result of an alienation caused by an immanentism-the destruction of the transcendent pole of existence-that continues to exist and dominate world politics (etc.)…simply put the Christian God, the Logos, has been jettisoned, and thus the loss of the eschatological hope in immortality and the ground of man’s existence. And, as Christ is the truth of existence (the ground of existence), we continue to yearn, hopelessly, for a life beyond.
    As Dylan said,…and those not to busy living,”… are to busy dying.”Report

  8. Avatar steve
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    You know, if you have more people and more modern weapons, more will be killed than in past wars when they are large scale events. It just wasn’t possible to transport so many people to a war in the 1700s as in the 1900s. No instant communications either.

    Ever read an Arabic newspaper? There are plenty of English translations. Strangely enough, it is full of politics.

    SteveReport

    • Avatar JosephFM in reply to steve
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      Indeed, that’s why these arguments are inane. Technology is the factor that matters, not ideology or culture.Report

      • Avatar JosephFM in reply to JosephFM
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        In determining body counts I mean.Report

        • Avatar Jaybird in reply to JosephFM
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          says:

          I don’t know that it is. Surely there was a dynamic at work under, say, Lenin and Stalin that allowed for millions to be killed using technology that, really, wasn’t *THAT* many light-years ahead of the people they were starving.

          Or was there?Report

          • Avatar JosephFM in reply to Jaybird
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            says:

            A dynamic that wasn’t at work at other points in history? Maybe. I suppose one could argue that believing you can create a utopia on earth leads to more killing than assuming one exists in the afterlife that only people who do certain things (which may include massacring nonbelievers in a crusade). I generally meant that in terms of warfare, though. Even 19th century weapons would have upped the death toll in the 15th by quite a lot.

            Though I guess the question underlying this is, can Muslim societies progress on a vector (to use your language) toward freedom in your view? I would think so given your comments on Iran. You seem to be taking the position that classical liberalism caused Stalinism, which is weird coming from an atheist libertarian.Report

            • Avatar Jaybird in reply to JosephFM
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              says:

              “You seem to be taking the position that classical liberalism caused Stalinism, which is weird coming from an atheist libertarian.”

              Not exactly. My position is that one of the many manifestations of post-classical liberalism was Stalinism (also Hitlerism, also Maoism, and there are a lot of alsos).

              Classical Liberalism? I’m a fan. Post-classical liberalism? Not so much.Report

              • Avatar Cascadian in reply to Jaybird
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                Franco?Report

              • Avatar Cascadian in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Isn’t anti-clericalism pretty much the bread and butter of classical liberalism?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Cascadian
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                I think it’s more the attitude that there ain’t nothin’ special about the clerics. We all have a relationship with Providence. We don’t need to go through a priest or pope or imam. Those what tell you that they are gatekeepers are lying. Perhaps to themselves, perhaps to you… but they ain’t telling the truth.

                Clerics, of course, frame this as “clericist.”Report

              • Avatar Cascadian in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I would have thought it was the place of the church in society, education, private land holdings and all. Looking back those were the things that were rid of first. It doesn’t seem much to do at all with the after life and everything to do with get out of my life in this world now. I suppose it will depend on who we consider the classical liberals to be.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Cascadian
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                says:

                There are one hundred ways to look at, for example, the birth of the Church of England.

                Not all of them lead to the conclusion that what was going on was particularly Liberal (though, indeed, there are some that do).Report

              • Avatar JosephFM in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                The point about the Middle East stands though: how do you see them getting from royalism and theocracy to a society that shares your values, and indeed why would you want to, if you thought that would be necessarily accompanied by some kind of even greater non-theistic evil?Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to JosephFM
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                There are many dynamics going on here.

                Here’s one:
                Whether I think that the Middle East would benefit from an embrace of the Enlightenment Culture that we saw in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s and which philosophy led to such things as emancipation, universal suffrage, and alcohol prohibition?

                Well, I suppose I would.

                The other dynamic is this: Let’s say that Islam does “evolve” as much as Protestantism in the United States has over the last 200 years or so. Is it likely to evolve similarly in the “just as different over the years” sense of the term or similarly in the “ended up in a similar place” sense?

                Being a pessimist, I suspect the former rather than the latter.

                I don’t see an Imam Spong showing up or a Muslim Max Lucado writing childrens’ books about how Allah makes grey dots and gold stars obsolete. Hey, maybe they will. Sure.

                But if one were to show up, one thinks that one would have shown up in the aftermath of that whole Rushdie thing. That would have been the *PERFECT* time for it.

                What was at stake? It was a book. Nobody blew up, no buildings were crashing to the ground, there was no billion-dollar sum of damage being done or whathaveyou. It was a book. Imam Spong could have jumped up and said that we need a new re-interpretation of Allah and His Prophet in these days, Mohammed (PBUH) is a parable in his own right, perhaps the intercession of Al-Lat *IS* to be desired, Allah is Love, those fundies have an unsophisticated interpretation of the Koran, so on and so forth. It was about a *BOOK*. JUST A BOOK.

                Nope.

                I would like to see Islam take a road down an Enlightenment Path.

                I suspect that their evolution is likely to be similar only insofar as it is as different where it is now from where it was then… and the question becomes “will that be likely to be better or worse than now?”

                I’m a pessimist. It’ll probably be worse.

                Moreover, anything we do to nudge will have unintended consequences. More often than not, these will be *BAD* unintended consequences (see, for example, Iraq).Report

      • Avatar Bob Cheeks in reply to JosephFM
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        says:

        Stalin, the mass starvation in the Ukraine, low/no tech mass murder!Report

  9. Avatar nwaocha ogechukwu
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    says:

    What do you think of when you look at the cross and the crucifix? Do they hold sacred and religious value for you?

    After reading Ogechukwu’s book, your perception may change; the church’s use of these symbols has, for centuries, concealed facts regarding their true origins. Ogechukwu reveals those findings in this stunning expose.

    His research includes historical accounts of Christianity’s conspiracy and divulges the true meaning of the cross—a satanic symbol.

    Ogechukwu states:

    “For centuries after Christ, the church and other religions that use cruciform symbols have misrepresented

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    what he calls the “painful knowledge bondage” of cruciform propaganda.

    http://www.eloquentbooks.com/TheSecretBehindTheCrossAndCruifix.htmlReport

  10. Avatar Koz
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    says:

    “If the Christian experience teachers us anything, however, it’s that the fluidity of historical interpretation and theology can open up space for liberalizing movements to take hold within a major Abrahamic faith.”

    Maybe, but at bottom I don’t think Islam in an Abrahamic faith in the sense you’re using it. What it really is the religious expression of the tribal nature of reality in the part of the world where it originated and reigns.Report

  11. Avatar MNPundit
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    says:

    “The theological and historical truth of these claims are almost irrelevant – the larger point is that Christians have self-consciously accepted the legitimacy (and, indeed, desirability) of liberalism and modernity.”

    What are you talking about? Have you not been to an evangelical church in America?Report

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